Lower-class diets in the Victorian era

[tmoh]

If you'd been around in England sometime between 1837 and 1901 and you didn't have a lot of money, what would you have been eating, and what appliances/utensils would you have kept around to cook it with? I've been trying to research this, but I haven't been able to get very far--surely there must be some information out there, even if less of it made it into the historical record?

More specific things I'm curious about if the information's out there:
*How would diets have differed between urban and rural areas?
*How did family size and/or marital status affect people's diets? (My assumption is that a single man would eat pretty differently from someone with a spouse and kids, but I'm not sure whether that's true or how big the difference would be.)

[silenus]

Get a copy of What Jane Austen Ate and Charles Dickens Knew. Then get a copy of At Home: A History of Private Life. Then watch The Supersizers Go... on The Cooking Channel.

[hogarth]

In Dickens, poor people are often depicted as eating buttered bread, sometimes with a bit of cold meat.

[Anna Nimity]

I read a lot of Victorian novels and they always seem to be eating wild birds and hares that they've caught themselves or poached from some rich landowner. The middle class and poor would buy their ale by the bucket and take it home. I don't know if this would apply to the poor, but the middle class in that time seemed to be quite fond of meat pies which I think they called pasties, not sure, maybe pasties are something else.

[Dorjän]

There is some info here: http://www.victorianweb.org/science/health/health8.html

[Scumpup]

The best we could manage was to suck on a piece of damp cloth.

[silenus]

You had cloth?


Luxury!


We had to make do with a handful of gravel.

[Fretful Porpentine]

There should also be some info in the "Food and Drink" section of the Victorian Dictionary (which isn't really a dictionary so much as a compendium of excerpts from period sources).

[purplehorseshoe]

You had gravel?!? Rich sunuvabitch.

[Blake]

Originally Posted by Anna Nimity

I don't know if this would apply to the poor, but the middle class in that time seemed to be quite fond of meat pies which I think they called pasties, not sure, maybe pasties are something else.

Pasties aren't pies. Pasties are basically turnovers.

[smiling bandit]

Originally Posted by Blake

Pasties aren't pies. Pasties are basically turnovers.

The British often call them pies though. In fact, on those odd occaisions when I've seen them in the states, they are called meat pies.

[Ethilrist]

Originally Posted by Blake

Pasties aren't pies. Pasties are basically turnovers.

Depends on where you wear them.

[VernWinterbottom]

[Mrs. Lovett]

Shepherd's pie peppered
with actual shepherd on top. . .

[/Mrs. Lovett]

[Teacake]

Originally Posted by smiling bandit

The British often call them pies though. In fact, on those odd occaisions when I've seen them in the states, they are called meat pies.

No we don't. A pie is a pie and a pasty is a pasty. What people call them when they're selling them in the States is another matter. I've never heard the terms used interchangeably, and I've been British all my life so far.

[salinqmind]

Gruel.
Soup.
Oatmeal.

Maybe all these things are the same thing?

I read a Victorian novel where the mean dressmaker provided the poor slavey-apprentices with starchy food, and they all got fat from carbohydrate overload. The dressmaker could say "of course I feed them well, look how fat they all are!"

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by Teacake

No we don't. A pie is a pie and a pasty is a pasty. What people call them when they're selling them in the States is another matter. I've never heard the terms used interchangeably, and I've been British all my life so far.

The English invented a language they cannot speak.

[Dogzilla]

Several years back, PBS was doing some reality series, one of which was called "The 1900 House." They chose a modern family to live as a middle-class family would in 1900. One of the more interesting aspects of this experiment was that the family was not allowed to eat or purchase anything that was produced after 1900 -- the era in which they were supposed to be living. There was a lot of discussion about food & drink, as well as hygiene products and, of course, the chores were heinous with very little technology to make things go more easily. Laundry stands out in my mind as a 2-day backbreaking process.

I don't know if you can still see this series on Netflix or wherever, but you may find answers to your questions here.

[Dogzilla]

Here's some other information.

And here.

Some very interesting stuff here.

A little info here.

[Colophon]

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant

The English invented a language they cannot speak.

Pie.

Pasty.

It's not rocket surgery.

(I have no idea what the shiny metal thing with spikes is in the second photograph, but such tools are never involved in the consumption of pasties in the real world.)

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by Colophon

Pie.

Pasty.

That's two pictures of the same... thing, right?

[Athena]

Originally Posted by Teacake

No we don't. A pie is a pie and a pasty is a pasty. What people call them when they're selling them in the States is another matter. I've never heard the terms used interchangeably, and I've been British all my life so far.

Pies and pasties are different things in this part of the US at least. But I also think we're about the only part of the US that has pasties, and one of the few where meat pies are relatively common.

Pasty (hover over "steak pasty" for better look.)

Meat Pies.

They both have similar ingredients, but a pasty is much coarser ground - the potatoes, onions, and rutabagas are in chunks and separate and distinct from the meat. Meat pies, at least around here, tend to be much finer ground and the herb/spice blend is vastly different than a pasty. They might look the same, but they eat different.

[Lukeinva]

Regarding these pasties and pies...

So then nothing has changed in England since Victorian times? They must be really f'n delicious.

[Colophon]

Originally Posted by Lukeinva

Regarding these pasties and pies...

So then nothing has changed in England since Victorian times? They must be really f'n delicious.

Like most foods they're variable, but done right they are indeed delicious.

Meat pies tend to have a runnier filling, with chunks of meat in gravy. Pasties have a drier filling, bound together with potato, as they are designed to be eaten with your hands (the pronounced crimped edge of the pastry was, according to legend, to give the tin miners something to grasp with their filthy mitts) and you don't want loads of gravy spilling out.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by Athena

the potatoes, onions, and rutabagas are in chunks and separate and distinct from the meat.

Ladies and gentlemen, please do not use the word "chunks" to refer to anything that is to be eaten.
Or is that another British English thing?

[Kimstu]

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant

Ladies and gentlemen, please do not use the word "chunks" to refer to anything that is to be eaten.
Or is that another British English thing?

Huh? There's nothing specifically British about using the culinary term "chunks", which more or less means "roughly cubical segments of meat, fruit or vegetable of approximately one- or two-bite size". It's a very common term in American cookbooks and food marketing. (Never heard of pineapple chunks?)

Just because you personally may associate the word "chunks" exclusively with vomit doesn't mean that any other American shares your squeamishness.

[svd678]

You never buy pineapple chunks, or chunky peanut butter?

[Redfishhunter930]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natchitoches_meat_pie

[Athena]

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant

Ladies and gentlemen, please do not use the word "chunks" to refer to anything that is to be eaten.
Or is that another British English thing?

I speak American, not British. And, like others have pointed out, "chunks" is pretty common when it comes to describing food. Chunk tuna, Chocolate chunks (like chips but larger/more square), and the aforementioned Chunky PB and pineapple chunks. I don't associate "chunk" with vomit at all.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by Athena

I don't associate "chunk" with vomit at all.

But you knew what I was talking about.

[Ethilrist]

Originally Posted by Colophon

Pie.

Pasty.

Pasties.


Made you hover.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by Ethilrist

Pasties.


Made you hover.

But I didn't find the nasty thing I expected.

[Springtime for Spacers]

They ate a helluva lot of oysters, which could be served as fast food.

[Becky2844]

Hi Athena. I don't know where you are in the US, but I'm originaly from East TN and my grandmother taught me how to make pasties. (Her family was from England.) She would make one per family member.

She started with some rolled-out dough, about 8" square. In the center she put cubes of sirloin, cubed potatoes, and a little chopped onion. Salt & pepper and a pat of butter on top. Then she brought up the corners and crimped them together, leaving a little "mouth," like a volcano, in which she poured some water, which basically cooked away because the pasties were moist but not wet---no gravy.

Since I don't know how many generations had passed since her family came over here, I don't know how accurate her recipe still was, but that's the one she taught me. I always wanted to add peas and/or carrots but she'd say, "That's not the recipe!"

[Becky2844]

Hope I didn't hijack! I'm interested in what the regular diet was, too.

I've got a cookbook of Medieval recipes and one that I read made me laugh. It starts, "First, kill a cow."

[Athena]

Originally Posted by Becky2844

Hi Athena. I don't know where you are in the US, but I'm originaly from East TN and my grandmother taught me how to make pasties. (Her family was from England.) She would make one per family member.

Oh, I didn't mean that my area is the only area where people make pasties - obviously, they're an old Cornish thing and anyone with English/Cornish ancestors probably know about them.

We are, however, one of the few areas where they're ubiquitous. There's two pasty shops in my small town, several more within a 10 or 15 mile radius, and it's not at all uncommon for churches and restaurants to make and sell pasties. I didn't really know that pasties were less popular nationally than, say, hamburgers when I was a kid.

[sparky!]

Two pages of basically arguing about chunks vs chunks, and a few good links.

Oh! And arguing what the hell a meat pie is (a pasty, really?).

I'm curious about this too. What would I be eating if I was lower class in Victorian England?

[An Gadaí]

Round here during that time period it was basically potatoes, then no potatoes, then back to potatoes and more potatoes.

[purplehorseshoe]

Originally Posted by Becky2844

Hi Athena. I don't know where you are in the US, but I'm originaly from East TN and my grandmother taught me how to make pasties. (Her family was from England.) She would make one per family member.

She started with some rolled-out dough, about 8" square. In the center she put cubes of sirloin, cubed potatoes, and a little chopped onion. Salt & pepper and a pat of butter on top. Then she brought up the corners and crimped them together, leaving a little "mouth," like a volcano, in which she poured some water, which basically cooked away because the pasties were moist but not wet---no gravy.

Since I don't know how many generations had passed since her family came over here, I don't know how accurate her recipe still was, but that's the one she taught me. I always wanted to add peas and/or carrots but she'd say, "That's not the recipe!"

Was the meat cooked beforehand?

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

Originally Posted by Athena

I speak American, not British. And, like others have pointed out, "chunks" is pretty common when it comes to describing food. Chunk tuna, Chocolate chunks (like chips but larger/more square), and the aforementioned Chunky PB and pineapple chunks. I don't associate "chunk" with vomit at all.

Well, not until now.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by IvoryTowerDenizen

Well, not until now.

Fine. Blame it all on me! Everyone else does.

[ouryL]

Ragout...no not rag out but like the italian ragu.
A stew of crap.

[hildea]

Both kept their eyes upon the pavement as they walked and talked, and every now and then one or the other would stoop and pick something up, never missing the stride the while. I thought it was cigar and cigarette stumps they were collecting, and for some time took no notice. Then I did notice.

From the slimy sidewalk, they were picking up bits of orange peel, apple skin, and grape stems, and they were eating them. The pips of green gage plums they cracked between their teeth for the kernels inside. They picked up stray crumbs of bread the size of peas, apple cores so black and dirty one would not take them to be apple cores, and these things these two men took into their mouths, and chewed them, and swallowed them; and this, between six and seven o'clock in the evening of August 20, year of our Lord 1902, in the heart of the greatest, wealthiest, and most powerful empire the world has ever seen.

From "The People of the Abyss" by Jack London.

[Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party]

Stews made from cheap cuts of meat and root vegetables like Lobscouse and Lancashire hotpot. Lobscouse was found all over northern Europe (and still is --- it was being sold in Hamburg restaurants when we were there a few weeks ago, and it's definitely still being eaten on Merseyside) as it was spread by sailors. Lancashire hotpot, almost always made from mutton or lamb scrag-end, was also cooked slowly in the ovens of bakeries after they had finished baking the morning bread or left on a range all day.

[Mangetout]

Originally Posted by Colophon

Pie.

Pasty.

It's not rocket surgery.

(I have no idea what the shiny metal thing with spikes is in the second photograph, but such tools are never involved in the consumption of pasties in the real world.)

I've always thought of the stegasaurus-style pasty as a modern thing. Traditionally, they were folded over and seamed along the curved edge, like this, weren't they?
(please don't tell me the thing about Cornish tin miners using the edge crust for a handle isn't a myth...)

[Colophon]

Originally Posted by Mangetout

I've always thought of the stegasaurus-style pasty as a modern thing. Traditionally, they were folded over and seamed along the curved edge, like this, weren't they?
(please don't tell me the thing about Cornish tin miners using the edge crust for a handle isn't a myth...)

I think you're right. I actually linked to the pic I did as the other ones looked too much like pies.

[Becky2844]

Originally Posted by purplehorseshoe

Was the meat cooked beforehand?

It seems like she cut up a roast that was "medium," and it cooked further in the pastie. I know they took quite a while to cook, so maybe the temp was around 325 degrees. (I haven't made them in many years. If I can find the recipe I'll put it in Cafe Society.)

[ralph124c]

I don't think a lot of the working class people had stoves/ovens at home..they probably got by on cold foods (bread, cheese, cooked meats) and varied the routine with food cooked at the bakers.
A fair proportion of the population could afford fish and chips-as these shops were everywhere.
Did British bars/taverns/pubs offer "free lunches"? In the American cities of the post-Civil War years, most bars had a sandwich or hot food for patrons-provided you bought a drink.

[Kimstu]

Originally Posted by ralph124c

I don't think a lot of the working class people had stoves/ovens at home..they probably got by on cold foods (bread, cheese, cooked meats) and varied the routine with food cooked at the bakers.

Note a fairly large exception, though, for the significant proportion of working-class people who were "in service", i.e., live-in servants in the houses of middle- or upper-class employers.

An employer's kitchen staff cooked the meals not only for "the family" but also for themselves and all the other servants. Servants didn't eat all the same foods as their employers, but they definitely got hot meals most of the time.

[terentii]

Originally Posted by Mangetout

I've always thought of the stegasaurus-style pasty as a modern thing.

FYI, "stegosaurus" is spelled with an "o"; forget what you saw in Spielberg's Jurassic Park.

I had Cornish pasties in Cornwall (England), and remember them as being crimped along the top. According to legend, they were indeed invented so that tin miners could bring a hearty lunch to work that they could eat with no mess.

The ones I had were packed with root vegetables and were delicious. I had them with beer in a country pub.

I would imagine if you lived in Victorian England, you would have eaten potatoes ... lots and lots of potatoes!

I remember reading Silas Marner, and he spent an entire afternoon boiling a hunk of bacon on the stove.* But then, he lived in the countryside, not a filthy, overpopulated city....

*Don't bother trying this. I did, and it sucked!