California Vehicle law

[bharrison138]

I am moving to the San Diego area shortly. I have been in the process of applying sheet metal around the outside, but nothing blocking vision and the like ("armor"... purely aesthetic reasons, no delusions that it will actually function as such). My family tells me the police in the area, particularly in La Jolla, are likely not going to take to this. So, I reviewed the California vehicle laws, and found this extremely broad law that seems intended for allowing police to make judgment calls, V C Section 24002. Reads as follows:

Vehicle Not Equipped or Unsafe

24002. (a) It is unlawful to operate any vehicle or combination of vehicles which is in an unsafe condition, or which is not safely loaded, and which presents an immediate safety hazard.

(b) It is unlawful to operate any vehicle or combination of vehicles which is not equipped as provided in this code.

I don't believe my vehicle is actually unsafe, however, I don't know what the implications of this law would be regarding immediate procedures if they pull me over. So if anybody knows how proceedings go in California with this sort of thing, that would be most helpful. Basically, how lenient are the courts on giving police discretionary powers?

And if anyone happens to know how likely a cop in La Jolla or San Diego is to pull someone over for the modifications I described (obviously, as an estimation) that would be great too, but the first question would be adequately helpful.

Thank you for reading

[Really Not All That Bright]

Pictures would be helpful. I can't tell from your description if you've got something resembling a boxy body kit or closer to a barn on your car.

[bharrison138]

I can do that, though it will be cell phone pictures since most of my stuff is packed. Obviously it is mostly unfinished, though I was on a different aesthetic approach previous to starting the armor.

http://s1169.photobucket.com/albums/...ent=image2.jpg

http://s1169.photobucket.com/albums/...rent=image.jpg

http://s1169.photobucket.com/albums/...ent=image1.jpg

[Trinopus]

A friend of mine mounted an enormous pair of moose antlers on the front of his car, and the police made him re-mount them. It was legal to have the antlers, but the mounting had to be "break-away," so as to snap free in case of a collision.

Your armor plating doesn't look like it extends much beyond the ordinary outline of the car, so might not fall under the same rules.

[bharrison138]

Originally Posted by Trinopus

A friend of mine mounted an enormous pair of moose antlers on the front of his car, and the police made him re-mount them. It was legal to have the antlers, but the mounting had to be "break-away," so as to snap free in case of a collision.

Your armor plating doesn't look like it extends much beyond the ordinary outline of the car, so might not fall under the same rules.

It won't either, even when it is done. I don't think they have a leg to stand on in this regard, the concern is more about whether the courts in California are lenient enough on the police that they feel sufficiently protected to make my life miserable (fines, impounding forcing court time etc) if for some reason they see the car as problematic for other reasons, even if what they do doesn't stand up in court.

[gunnergoz]

OTOH, If your intention is to make the car look like it has truly been armored against gunfire, then prepare to be stopped periodically by SD cops (who also have beats in LJ) who want to make sure you are not planning an LA-style bank heist with your ("mind if we check the trunk?") trunkful of AK47's. Once they get used to you on the beat and understand who you are and what your intentions are, they may back off a bit...until some rookie cop needs to be "broken in" by his training partner, at your expense.
PS This is definitely NOT the car to loan to your dope-using, doobie-dropping friends.

[Hail Ants]

Well, your fake armor looks very much like very shoddy body repair. Like you replaced your whole driver's door sheet metal with a piece of tin siding or something. Consequently that makes it look like it could be unsafe. Plus just looking too unsafe can cause rubbernecking of other drivers, which is in itself unsafe (even if, structurally, it's not!)

Police have a lot of leeway in pulling you over for stuff like this (regardless of what a judge has ruled safe) and police certainly vary in their tolerances of creativity, so, don't have or do anything that skirts the law while driving it!

[bharrison138]

Yea, the initial attempt at attaching the sheet metal didn't work quite like I intended, so it does look pretty shoddy. Doesn't matter if it is cut perfectly to me, but better than it was would be good.

I've never thought about (or even heard the term) "rubbernecking" before. Of course, I realize it will cause some people to look twice-- which I suppose could be much more dangerous in California than Colorado.

If they only have to check the trunk a few times, I guess I'm okay with that. Mostly interested in avoiding baseless tickets that I have to waste time in court with.

[Rigamarole]

Originally Posted by Hail Ants

Well, your fake armor looks very much like very shoddy body repair.

Agreed. Not to spit on your dreams or anything, but that looks incredibly ghetto and ugly (you're doing it for aesthetic reasons? Really?). La Jolla is a pretty tony neighborhood so you probably will attract police attention in that, but not because of it violating some vehicle safety law. The cops will be watching you because they will think you are some kind of gangsta thug who doesn't belong there.

[bharrison138]

Originally Posted by Rigamarole

Agreed. Not to spit on your dreams or anything, but that looks incredibly ghetto and ugly (you're doing it for aesthetic reasons? Really?). La Jolla is a pretty tony neighborhood so you probably will attract police attention in that, but not because of it violating some vehicle safety law. The cops will be watching you because they will think you are some kind of gangsta thug who doesn't belong there.

Yes I am. Aesthetic reasons doesn't imply "pretty" or anything in that arena. The initial attempt at cutting the sheet metal really didn't work out as I had envisioned, granted. The door handle came out okay though.

I don't care if they watch me. They can watch, figure out where I live, and move on. The violation of a safety law is not the reason I believe they would pull me over, but rather, that such a violation would be the easiest law to use to ticket me, or even impound the vehicle (thus claiming that was the reason they pulled me over). I have no doubt it will attract attention, but the question is, what they can viably do with it.

[SanDiegoTim]

FYI, no need to worry about the La Jolla Police. No such entity. La Jolla is actually part of San Diego, albeit snootier. Back to your car, other than a few strange looks (especially in La Jolla), I doubt anyone will bother you. Those sharp edges, however, could be a liability in certain situations.

[Postariti]

Yes, it seems like they could declare the sheet metal hazardous. I imagine they would just ask you to remove it. How are you attaching it? Will your car be full of holes if you have to remove it?

[gunnergoz]

I should mention that, in parts of San Diego, particularly like La Jolla, people can be fairly protective of their neighborhood; if the vehicle you arrive in looks like a junker, you, or whomever is hosting you, may well get complaints from the neighbors if your car is left out on the street.

One man's art is another man's eyesore. Eyesores bring down property values. And La Jolla is very much about property values.

[ExcitedIdiot]

It doesn't look very safe to me. Here are a few reasons to stop this madness:

1. The added weight of all this sheet metal will change the engine performance, braking, suspension, etc.
2. Rust. You've created all kinds of small voids that will gather dirt and other gunk. The dirt and gunk will hold water, accelerating rust. The body panels underneath will rot and the sheets will come flying off when you're on the highway.
3. It could be more dangerous in a crash. By creating more rigid body panels, you have changed the path of crash forces. Body panels should crumple, it absorbs force.
4. It looks terrible.
5. You will be constantly harassed by police. Police pay close attention to junker cars, especially ones in a nice neighborhood.

[zwede]

How about sharp edges? There are lots of laws on pedestrian safety when it comes to car design. If you have any sharp edges sticking out, a light brush against a ped that would have led to nothing except an angry stare could end up ripping out a chunk of flesh.

[Dr. Drake]

What you are talking about is called an "art car," and there are lots of them in California. They tend (unfairly) to attract more parking tickets and moving violations than less attention-getting cars. I doubt that you would have a ticket just for the modifications you're making (there are much more extreme examples out there), but what you're doing is really rather subversive in a car culture, because you're challenging the aesthetic values and thus the meanings and broader values associated with them. People react to this on a gut level, most of them thinking it's really cool and some of them getting angry.

As far as San Diego specifically, remember that La Jolla is just a neighborhood of San Diego, and it does not have its own police force. La Jolla cops are San Diego cops. I would think the car would be better in La Jolla, which is used to character, than in some of the blander suburbs, e.g. Rancho Peñasquitos, or the really wealthy enclaves like Rancho Santa Fe.

[Dewey Finn]

Originally Posted by zwede

How about sharp edges? There are lots of laws on pedestrian safety when it comes to car design. If you have any sharp edges sticking out, a light brush against a ped that would have led to nothing except an angry stare could end up ripping out a chunk of flesh.

This would be my concern; sometimes in parking lots and such it's necessary to walk next to a car. I would not appreciate getting injured due to someone's "art project."

[bharrison138]

The sheet metal is fairly sharp. It should hug the body panels, but there are some problem points in that regard. It is attached with pop rivets. So, if it comes off there would be holes, but those could be plugged with pop rivets. That don't hold anything. Still, taking it off for the time might be the best choice.

As for anybody saying it looks horrible: this is irksome and I didn't put this on here to be judged on its aesthetics.

Thank you everyone else

[KneadToKnow]

I still have trouble hearing "La Hoya" when I read La Jolla.

[SanDiegoTim]

Suggest Ocean Beach instead of LaJolla. Your car will be right at home there.

[enipla]

I would agree that many cops might see that in passing and wonder if it is unsafe. Not knowing there is a real door under the sheet metal.

Knowing that some people are drawn to the police force for the wrong reasons, I suspect that such modifications might get you a lot of grief from a few police officers. Maybe more than a few.

I know this is GQ, but from your OP

Originally Posted by bharrison

("armor"... purely aesthetic reasons, no delusions that it will actually function as such).

It might help. How thick is it? A quick glance from a police car will not be able to decern if that really isn't some sort of ammor. Or an attempt at it.

And then -

Originally Posted by bharrison

I didn't put this on here to be judged on its aesthetics

So. You want it for aesthetics, but don't want it judged on it's aesthetics?

[cher3]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoTim

Suggest Ocean Beach instead of LaJolla. Your car will be right at home there.

Seconded. Your car wouldn't even make the top 20 of "aesthetically modified" vehicles in OB.

[The Tao's Revenge]

Originally Posted by enipla

So. You want it for aesthetics, but don't want it judged on it's aesthetics?

Maybe you could stick to whether the car is legal, instead of trying to shit all over the guy's ride, yeah?

The thread appears to be about if the fellow will get harshed by the fuzz, not soliciting your opinions. I'd be miffed too. Giving negative, unsolicited critiques is rude.

[Dewey Finn]

Originally Posted by bharrison138

The sheet metal is fairly sharp. It should hug the body panels, but there are some problem points in that regard. It is attached with pop rivets. So, if it comes off there would be holes, but those could be plugged with pop rivets. That don't hold anything. Still, taking it off for the time might be the best choice.

I'm glad that you're planning to remove the sheet metal mods, especially since I would be concerned about what would happen to the pop rivets at highway speeds (assuming that you ever go on the highway).Would the pop rivets fail, causing the sheet metal to fly off the car and into someone else's car?

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Rigamarole

Agreed. Not to spit on your dreams or anything, but that looks incredibly ghetto and ugly (you're doing it for aesthetic reasons? Really?). La Jolla is a pretty tony neighborhood so you probably will attract police attention in that, but not because of it violating some vehicle safety law. The cops will be watching you because they will think you are some kind of gangsta thug who doesn't belong there.

If you drove that car into the ghetto, I have a feeling the pedestrians would say Holy crap that's ghetto.

[Ethilrist]

Originally Posted by bharrison138

... Basically, how lenient are the courts on giving police discretionary powers? ...

I can't speak to what the laws overall are like here, but if you're concerned about a worst-case scenario in dealing with individual police officers (which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the courts), California has had some notably unfortunate incidents. Wildly isolated cases, but there is a certain argument in favor of not making waves.

[bharrison138]

Originally Posted by Dewey Finn

Would the pop rivets fail, causing the sheet metal to fly off the car and into someone else's car?

The pop rivets are quite solid. I have been on highways many times with them, they don't come out. I'll check them out again after taking the sheet metal off.

Ocean Beach isn't an option on the immediate horizon. For a while, anyway, it will be La Jolla. I'll check it out it anyway.

Originally Posted by enipla

So. You want it for aesthetics, but don't want it judged on it's aesthetics?

That ain't gonna fly. I do this for my own amusement, and whomever ends up appreciating it. Aesthetics can, and in my opinion, should be taken subjectively, so the aesthetic value is as applied to me alone in both contexts, meaning, in the end, it is not something warranting discussion given the topic. Or you trying to catch me in a contradiction.

I'm repeating stuff that was already said by other people here (thank you!), in the hope that it will eventually sink in. I guess I should have expected this kinda stuff.

[GreasyJack]

Originally Posted by The Tao's Revenge

The thread appears to be about if the fellow will get harshed by the fuzz, not soliciting your opinions. I'd be miffed too. Giving negative, unsolicited critiques is rude.

As the past and current owner of many, um, unique looking vehicles, I can tell you that the degree to which your car will be hassled by the authorities is HUGELY dependent on what other people think of it. Pretty much every city has weird laws about overnight parking, or on-street "storage" that never, ever get enforced unless someone complains, or the parking enforcement just doesn't like the look of your car. I had an old beat up pickup I drove to work every day that would still get tagged as an "abandoned vehicle" every so often. Meanwhile my neighbor's boring respectable-looking Honda snapped a timing belt, didn't move for 6 months and gathered about two inches of dust, but not even one of the parking peoples' "move your car" reminders that I seemed to get on a daily basis.

[kaylasdad99]

I'm a little unclear on one point. Is the car in the photos the "finished product," as it were, or a "work in progress."

I have a nephew who's a motorcycle cop in Riverside county; if those pics are what you're planning to drive around here, I can alert him to this thread and ask his opinion.

I'm also unclear on how far that thing on the door handle extends. A photo clarifying that might be helpful.

[bharrison138]

Originally Posted by kaylasdad99

I'm a little unclear on one point. Is the car in the photos the "finished product," as it were, or a "work in progress."

I have a nephew who's a motorcycle cop in Riverside county; if those pics are what you're planning to drive around here, I can alert him to this thread and ask his opinion.

I'm also unclear on how far that thing on the door handle extends. A photo clarifying that might be helpful.

It is by no means a finished product, but, I do drive it.

By all means, I would be very interested in actual cop's thoughts on it.

I'll get a door handle pic in the morning. Off-hand, I'd guess 1 inch to 1.5 inches from the body, but that is definitely a possible subject to revision.

[enipla]

Originally Posted by bharrison138

That ain't gonna fly. I do this for my own amusement, and whomever ends up appreciating it. Aesthetics can, and in my opinion, should be taken subjectively, so the aesthetic value is as applied to me alone in both contexts, meaning, in the end, it is not something warranting discussion given the topic. Or you trying to catch me in a contradiction.

I wasn't trying to catch you in a contradiction. It was just there and I pointed it out.

The thing is, those particular aesthetic values are going to be applied to you. Mostly in the form of flashing lights. That's what you where asking about in your OP. To paraphrase "Are the cops going to pull me over". “ Yep, probably”. Has been the answer.

But, Ok. Whatever floats your boat.

I just took up the banjo a year ago. It's mine. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great to express yourself.

The thing is, since I'm not yet a very good banjo player, I don't force people to listen to me. It looks to me that you are just trying to force people to look at you. That's not always a good thing to do.

[bharrison138]

Originally Posted by enipla

I wasn't trying to catch you in a contradiction. It was just there and I pointed it out.

Which suggests you fundamentally don't understand the categories and properties being used. Saying, post my response, that a contradiction was there, when I just showed, albeit very briefly, that it wasn't, suggests you think that I did not show a lack of contradiction. But then failed to show, let alone suggest, where my error was.

Trying was probably the wrong word. Even if there had been a contradiction, which I will contest until you can give either an argument or an explanation for there being a contradiction, I don't believe it would be worth bringing up. Except for being a smart-ass upon recognizing what you perceived to be a contradiction.

As to the rest of it, I am taking the answers into account.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Originally Posted by enipla

I wasn't trying to catch you in a contradiction. It was just there and I pointed it out.

I asked him to post pictures because I thought it would help people determine how much police attention the modifications would draw. I didn't ask him to do it because I wanted to judge his car.

[enipla]

Originally Posted by bharrison138

Which suggests you fundamentally don't understand the categories and properties being used. Saying, post my response, that a contradiction was there, when I just showed, albeit very briefly, that it wasn't, suggests you think that I did not show a lack of contradiction. But then failed to show, let alone suggest, where my error was.

Trying was probably the wrong word. Even if there had been a contradiction, which I will contest until you can give either an argument or an explanation for there being a contradiction, I don't believe it would be worth bringing up. Except for being a smart-ass upon recognizing what you perceived to be a contradiction.

As to the rest of it, I am taking the answers into account.

OK… Whatever you say Sheldon.

[bharrison138]

@kaylasdad99

The door handle

http://s1169.photobucket.com/albums/...ent=image5.jpg

[The Tao's Revenge]

Originally Posted by enipla

The thing is, since I'm not yet a very good banjo player, I don't force people to listen to me. It looks to me that you are just trying to force people to look at you. That's not always a good thing to do.

That is the most retarded thing I've read, and I've been to /b/. As if he's going around pinning other drivers down, forcing their eyelids open and making them stair in horror at his ride.


We get it, you don't like his car. To bad for you you're not car-dictator and it's a free country.

Originally Posted by enipla

OK… Whatever you say Sheldon.

Really, what the hell did the OP do to you to solicit your attacks? Are you that fucking petty about other people's aesthetics?

[enipla]

Originally Posted by The Tao's Revenge

That is the most retarded thing I've read, and I've been to /b/. As if he's going around pinning other drivers down, forcing their eyelids open and making them stair in horror at his ride.

Nope, you're wrong. Just read it.

Don't know where /b/ is.

[guizot]

I don't think anyone can really give you a definitive answer to this, but my prediction is that eventually you'll get pulled over and given a "fix-it" ticket, just because it looks like an unsafe replacement door. If the cop that stops you actually exams it and can determine to her/his own satisfaction that it's safely mounted, she or he might just tell you to make it look more secure to avoid future hassles.

This will more likely happen sooner in La Jolla "proper" than most other parts of San Diego, but really, the places that people call "La Jolla" are so varied (everywhere from the Village to UTC), it's going to depend on where you actually spend your time, and whether you just drive on large, main drags, or go off into the ritzy neighborhoods and happen to pass a cop without anything more pressing to do.

As for OB--where I grew up--you're more likely to have a chance of getting known by the cops who work that very small community, but that won't guarantee anything. If it should happen, it's possible they'll just let it slide. (This probably isn't going to happen in any part of the many vast areas that people like to call "La Jolla" -- it's part of the larger Northern Division of the PD)

Here in L.A., you'd probably also eventually get a "fix-it" ticket, but it would take longer--though it might happen a lot sooner if your driving habits should draw any attention.

[drachillix]

A thought or two

....probably be better looking for the "armored" aspect and easier over time to cut out smaller plates like 4"x4" squares and rivet them on individually. Since there is less loading per rivet it will be far less likely you will lose a piece.

In addition you could far more easily piecework them in as time permits with a stack of them precut/drilled.

Once you have 2 paralell rows of those plates you could "layer" them in staggered rows so the outer plate covers the gaps in the inner plates.

Use aluminum, will still slow down stray handgun rounds, but will be less weight.

[bharrison138]

Originally Posted by drachillix

A thought or two

....probably be better looking for the "armored" aspect and easier over time to cut out smaller plates like 4"x4" squares and rivet them on individually. Since there is less loading per rivet it will be far less likely you will lose a piece.

In addition you could far more easily piecework them in as time permits with a stack of them precut/drilled.

Once you have 2 paralell rows of those plates you could "layer" them in staggered rows so the outer plate covers the gaps in the inner plates.

Use aluminum, will still slow down stray handgun rounds, but will be less weight.

This is a good idea. I didn't really think too much about the problems of attaching sheet metal, and given all the problems the first attempt at it caused, a different approach is needed. Thanks

[kaylasdad99]

Originally Posted by drachillix

Use aluminum, will still slow down stray handgun rounds, but will be less weight.

Won't the aluminum foil rip and blow away the first time he gets up to freeway speed?



OP, Ii sent a link to the thread to my nephew. If he doesn't join the board to respond his own self, I'll pass along his thoughts.

[Carl Pham]

There is no way to reliably answer this question, I think. It sounds like you're imagining that the law is constructed such that the legislature, courts, et cetera need to lay down a specific algorithm by which you can figure out reliably whether your car is or is not legal, and if it is, then there's nothing anybody in the judicial system can do about it.

Doesn't work that way. The legislature just says, at the most basic level, that your car has to be safe, both for you as well as for any passengers or other people on the road. To some degree they will publish guidelines as to what is and is not considered safe, and it's certainly advisable to follow them to avoid trouble. (You can just call the DMV, by the way, and ask them questions.)

But in the end, it will be up to a Calfornia cop to decide whether he thinks your car is safe or not, and then up to a California judge to make the decision. They don't need to say in advance what the standards are, or even justify it to you afterwards. About all they need to do is make their decisions sufficiently non outrageous that their peers and superiors (e.g. other cops, or other judges) won't overrule them.

So just ask some people you know, focussing more towards the middle-aged and square population that is most likely to be wearing a badge or black robe. (I would be surprised if your survey here of SDMBers is a reliable sampling.) If a nontrivial fraction of your sample say the car looks vaguely unsafe, then it's just a matter of time before a SD cop thinks so, too, and a state judge agrees with him. (The plus side is that unless you have specifically violated some aspect of the CVC, you'll likely just be ordered to change things, not pay a fine or be conviced of anything.) You can probably judge how long it will be before your projects comes to an end by the number of people in your focus group who are concerned. If the number if low enough, your odds of getting away with it for quite a long time are probably good.

In that case, there's no reason not to press forward -- but I would advise having a Plan B lying around for how you're going to immediately comply with an order that tells you to restore the car to a "normal" state, because if you get ordered to do so you'll not be allowed to drive the car until you do. Not having any car to drive in California can be a real drag -- you won't want it to go on for long. So have a contingency plan.