Straight Dope Message Board

[Chimera]

Whether or not it is a valid issue for discussion, what is bothering me the most right now is that Bernie Sanders and the Bernie Bros seem to have flipped into full blown 'burn down every Democratic candidate to clear the path for Bernie' mode, including insulting the supporters of other candidates. I don't like it, I don't appreciate it and it isn't going to make me vote for Bernie.

By the way, is he still using the same campaign staff with the Russian ties? 151

[Whack-a-Mole]

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii

I wouldn't make any such bet, and I find the idea of making a bet about the consent of women and girls who are personally unknown to me to be rather repugnant.

What is "repugnant" about it?

We have a series of photos of Biden getting handsy with women and girls.

You posit it is wrong to assume how the women/girls felt about that contact.

Fine.

So the question is, if you had to bet, which way do you think the majority of women would feel about it? 152

[iiandyiiii]

Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole

What is "repugnant" about it?

We have a series of photos of Biden getting handsy with women and girls.

You posit it is wrong to assume how the women/girls felt about that contact.

Fine.

So the question is, if you had to bet, which way do you think the majority of women would feel about it?

I decline to play this revolting game, because it is wrong to assume how the women/girls felt about that contact. 153

[Whack-a-Mole]

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii

I decline to play this revolting game, because it is wrong to assume how the women/girls felt about that contact.

Read: "I am cornered and can't find a way out of what I argued for so I will feign indignance." 154

[iiandyiiii]

Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole

Read: "I am cornered and can't find a way out of what I argued for so I will feign indignance."

Or maybe you could actually read my words instead of accusing me of lying. Is it really that impossible to you that I might be honestly representing my views? 155

[Chimera]

Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole

Read: "I am cornered and can't find a way out of what I argued for so I will feign indignance."

"I have the power to demand that you answer my very specific questions about everything to my exacting requirements. Failure means you lose."



Good luck with that. 156

[Whack-a-Mole]

Originally Posted by Chimera

"I have the power to demand that you answer my very specific questions about everything to my exacting requirements. Failure means you lose."



Good luck with that.

He/she does not have to answer but a dodge is a dodge. 157

[iiandyiiii]

Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole

He/she does not have to answer but a dodge is a dodge.

...or maybe I'm honestly representing my views. It can be tough to accept that someone is honestly but very strongly disagreeing with you, but doing so can lead to greater understanding. Why not try it? 158

[Whack-a-Mole]

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii

Or maybe you could actually read my words instead of accusing me of lying. Is it really that impossible to you that I might be honestly representing my views?

You are the one who used charged language like "revolting".

Maybe you are really revolted. If so I submit you are too easily triggered. 159

[iiandyiiii]

Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole

You are the one who used charged language like "revolting".

Maybe you are really revolted. If so I submit you are too easily triggered.

Our overall society is revolting in the way women/girls are treated. You may have missed it, but I've been hammering this issue on this board for years. And how it's gotten worse, in some ways, in the last few years. This discussion is an extremely minor, but still real, example of this, IMO. I don't have any reason to think that you're a bad person, but by your posts, I think you've succumbed, to some small but still real way, to part of the overal societal disregard for the personhood of women and girls. I know that I have in the past as well. That's not going to stop me from pointing it out when I see it -- and this could be an opportunity for you to try and see something that you might be able to improve about yourself. I'm certainly far from perfect, and I hope others will call out inadvertent bigotry in my posts, if they see it. And I'm going to do it for you and everyone else I see that make this sort of mistake, both to highlight how ubiquitous it is, and to help people have the chance to improve themselves.

It's always possible that I'm wrong about this and any other issue, and I welcome the opportunity to probe and challenge my own arguments, assumptions, and beliefs. But so far, I've been very troubled by your blatant disregard for the personhood and individual full humanity of women like Stephanie Carter, as well as the other women and girls in the videos/images cited.

This isn't the end of the world, and it doesn't make you (or Biden!) a monster, but I'm still going to call it out when and how I see it. 160

[Whack-a-Mole]

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii

Our overall society is revolting in the way women/girls are treated. You may have missed it, but I've been hammering this issue on this board for years. And how it's gotten worse, in some ways, in the last few years. This discussion is an extremely minor, but still real, example of this, IMO. I don't have any reason to think that you're a bad person, but by your posts, I think you've succumbed, to some small but still real way, to part of the overal societal disregard for the personhood of women and girls. I know that I have in the past as well. That's not going to stop me from pointing it out when I see it -- and this could be an opportunity for you to try and see something that you might be able to improve about yourself. I'm certainly far from perfect, and I hope others will call out inadvertent bigotry in my posts, if they see it. And I'm going to do it for you and everyone else I see that make this sort of mistake, both to highlight how ubiquitous it is, and to help people have the chance to improve themselves.

It's always possible that I'm wrong about this and any other issue, and I welcome the opportunity to probe and challenge my own arguments, assumptions, and beliefs. But so far, I've been very troubled by your blatant disregard for the personhood and individual full humanity of women like Stephanie Carter, as well as the other women and girls in the videos/images cited.

This isn't the end of the world, and it doesn't make you (or Biden!) a monster, but I'm still going to call it out when and how I see it.

You seem to be trying to have it both ways.

In your view, regarding Biden, whose account do you accept? Flores or Carter? 161

[iiandyiiii]

Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole

You seem to be trying to have it both ways.

In your view, regarding Biden, whose account do you accept? Flores or Carter?

I accept both accounts, and they don't conflict in any way at all.

I can't tell what you're actually trying to respond to in my posts. 162

[Whack-a-Mole]

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii

I accept both accounts, and they don't conflict in any way at all.

I can't tell what you're actually trying to respond to in my posts.

So, if you put your hands on women's shoulders (who are not well known or intimate with you), lean in to whisper in their ear and kiss them on the head that is ok till someone complains?

And when someone complains then what happens? 163

[iiandyiiii]

Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole

So, if you put your hand on women's shoulders (who is not well known or intimate with you), lean in to whisper in their ear and kiss them on the head that is ok till someone complains?

And when someone complains then what happens?

This has nothing to do with what I've posted. I can't tell what you're disputing here that I've actually said.

Which specific words are you disagreeing with here? 164

[Whack-a-Mole]

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii

This has nothing to do with what I've posted. I can't tell what you're disputing here that I've actually said.

Which specific words are you disagreeing with here?

You have been on about how I dare to assume someone I do not know feels about Biden being overly familiar with them.

So I am exploring how that plays out in your head because you seem to be trying to have it both ways. Flores is right and Carter is right so Biden should and should not be judged.

Which is just weird... 165

[iiandyiiii]

Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole

You have been on about how I dare to assume someone I do not know feels about Biden being overly familiar with them.

So I am exploring how that plays out in your head because you seem to be trying to have it both ways. Flores is right and Carter is right so Biden should and should not be judged.

Which is just weird...

I don't understand how it's "weird" or otherwise difficult to understand that it's reasonable to criticize Biden for the behavior that Flores describes, but not reasonable to criticize Biden for being affectionate with a close friend (Carter), and not reasonable to characterize in any way the appropriateness of the contact for women and girls who have chosen not to speak out publicly.

It's not okay to violate someone's personal space (without consent, obviously). It is okay to be affectionate with a close friend if that's the kind of relationship you have (i.e. that hugs and affection are welcome, and this has been made clear over the course of a long friendship). It's not okay to presume you have any knowledge about the consent of a bunch of women and girls who have not chosen to speak out about their experiences.

What's "weird" about that? 166

[DrDeth]

Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole

Ok.

Then just watch these videos posted earlier in this thread: https://twitter.com/RAMRANTS/status/...387863552?s=19

Maybe they are all ok with it too. Or maybe they know better than to criticize the vice president of the United States who is above their husband/dad in the political hierarchy.

Edited vids. Crap. 167

[DrDeth]

Originally Posted by What Exit?

On the bright side, Sanders leads other Dems by double-digits among 18-29 year old Democrats. So maybe getting Biden out of the way is best anyway. It is 31% for Sanders to Biden's 20%.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...-double-digits

Better link for Poll results: https://www.commondreams.org/news/20...ic-voters-poll

Then they will just ruin Sanders rep. 168

[Whack-a-Mole]

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii

I don't understand how it's "weird" or otherwise difficult to understand that it's reasonable to criticize Biden for the behavior that Flores describes, but not reasonable to criticize Biden for being affectionate with a close friend (Carter)...

In your view is Biden's behavior disqualifying to run for president?

Why or why not?

(And yeah, it is not legally disqualifying...we know that...asking for your opinion) 169

[Whack-a-Mole]

Originally Posted by DrDeth

Edited vids. Crap.

Oh no! Fake news!

(Where have we heard that before?) 170

[What Exit?]

Originally Posted by DrDeth

Then they will just ruin Sanders rep.

What are they going to do?
Call him a angry old man, everyone knows that.
Call him a socialist, too late, everyone knows that.
He not a real Democrat, doubt that would hurt with Independents and Repubs ashamed of Trump.
Too Old, well maybe but he is only a year older then Biden 171

[iiandyiiii]

Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole

In your view is Biden's behavior disqualifying to run for president?

Why or why not?

(And yeah, it is not legally disqualifying...we know that...asking for your opinion)

If I were him I would not run, and I will be significantly less likely to support him against the other Democrats going forward. I'd prefer to support a candidate with no credible allegations of unwanted contact, even non-sexual contact, against them.

I also want to see if others come forward with any stories about Biden's behavior, and what they have to say. At this point I hope he does not run. 172

[DrDeth]

Originally Posted by What Exit?

What are they going to do?
Call him a angry old man, everyone knows that.
Call him a socialist, too late, everyone knows that.
He not a real Democrat, doubt that would hurt with Independents and Repubs ashamed of Trump.
Too Old, well maybe but he is only a year older then Biden

What did they do with Biden?

They could come up with a Communist party card, for example. 173

[Whack-a-Mole]

Originally Posted by DrDeth

What did they do with Biden?

They could come up with a Communist party card, for example.

This one is a whoosh on me.

Please explain. 174

[SmartAleq]

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii

I decline to play this revolting game, because it is wrong to assume how the women/girls felt about that contact.

Oh come on now, I just can't get on board with this at ALL. I'm a human with functioning eyes and an understanding of how humans show their discomfort with a situation and regardless of what someone might say after the fact I think analyzing their observed reactions to a situation is completely valid. For instance, how about this sequence? He puts his hands on her chest, she moves away and elbows his hand away from her with a look of confusion on her face and damned if he doesn't move that hand right back where it was. No. That little girl was not happy with the interaction, did not want his hand on her chest and actively resisted it--and he did it again. That's a determined pushing of clear boundaries and no amount of excuses is ever going to make it okay.

And even if that girl, however old she is now, were to come out and say that "no, it's cool what happened," I am going to think about the myriad instances where I've heard people excuse their abusers and cover for them and insist that everything is JUST FINE OKAY because I also remember those same people breaking down under the stress later on and finally acknowledging the damage done to them. Dissociation is a thing sometimes, and humans have had millions of years of practice in developing and analyzing the nonverbal reactions of other humans--we know what's going on, but some of us decide we're going to pretend we don't, and that's not okay. I am not okay with what Biden does and a lot of other people are not happy with it either and no number of women coming up and saying "No, it's okay, it's cool what happened" is going to make me comfortable with what I had to observe. 175

[DrDeth]

Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole

This one is a whoosh on me.

Please explain.

The kremlin could fake a a communist party card for bernie. Then back it with real pics of him at rallies, some of his early papers, etc. 176

[Try2B Comprehensive]

R Kelly's "victims" often seem to cover up for him. Scare quotes because his teenage co-girlfriends say everything is cool, they really enjoy living with R Kelly and have since they were 16. So there ya go, nothing to see here.

Except that Biden isn't accused of anything in the same ballpark as R Kelly. Do people really, truly believe he is a pedophile? Because of a snapshot of him seeming to look at a little girl's chest? It reminds me of that photo of Obama looking at that woman's butt- maybe that photo represented what was really happening, but more likely it was just snapped in an awkward moment.

Not trying to make excuses for Biden. Seems like there are more handsy examples every few hours, which isn't a very flattering news cycle for him to say the least. I just want to say that pedophilia is a little bit too damning of an accusation to throw around casually, on flimsy evidence. If not electing him POTUS is the right thing to do, we can do that without exaggerating his problems. 177

[Try2B Comprehensive]

ETA: Interesting that this story is all over CNN today, and not in a way that tries to explain it away. If Biden is going to flame out over this, he does it in a way that shows the Dems and their media allies are not just a bunch of mindless sycophants. 178

[SmartAleq]

I'm not saying he's a pedophile, I'm saying he either has NO idea he's crossing boundaries (seems suspect considering how often people have called him on it over several DECADES) or he's unable or unwilling to control his behavior even after myriad people have told him--and articles have been written, and bits on tv shows have been aired and social media comments have mounted into the thousands over his behavior--and that's not someone with good judgment and/or ability to control his impulses. I prefer people I'll vote to have power over me to have good judgment and the ability to control their impulses. I prefer people who understand and respect common boundaries. I prefer people who do not treat women and girls as objects they can handle at will regardless of their preferences. I prefer people with social intelligence who know when they creep other people out. I prefer people who defer to others about what THEY want in terms of being touched and handled and who goddamned well gain consent before getting their grabby little mitts going. Unca Joe has shown over and over he does not have these qualities, not to mention some other little judgment problems and a demonstrated inability/unwillingness to be guided by others into modifying his behavior. So yeah, no thanks to Unca Joe. 179

[RTFirefly]

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii

With Flores, yes. Implying this is true about other women who haven't spoken out is wrong, and it's creepy and gross because you're making assumptions about the consent of a stranger (not to mention whether or not they consider Biden a friend or family).

I'm sorry, I thought children didn't get to consent. 180

[iiandyiiii]

Originally Posted by RTFirefly

I'm sorry, I thought children didn't get to consent.

??? 181

[Try2B Comprehensive]

Originally Posted by SmartAleq

I'm not saying he's a pedophile, I'm saying he either has NO idea he's crossing boundaries (seems suspect considering how often people have called him on it over several DECADES) or he's unable or unwilling to control his behavior even after myriad people have told him--and articles have been written, and bits on tv shows have been aired and social media comments have mounted into the thousands over his behavior--and that's not someone with good judgment and/or ability to control his impulses. I prefer people I'll vote to have power over me to have good judgment and the ability to control their impulses. I prefer people who understand and respect common boundaries. I prefer people who do not treat women and girls as objects they can handle at will regardless of their preferences. I prefer people with social intelligence who know when they creep other people out. I prefer people who defer to others about what THEY want in terms of being touched and handled and who goddamned well gain consent before getting their grabby little mitts going. Unca Joe has shown over and over he does not have these qualities, not to mention some other little judgment problems and a demonstrated inability/unwillingness to be guided by others into modifying his behavior. So yeah, no thanks to Unca Joe.

I already thought his legislative record is not so hot before all of this became the top story. 182

[RTFirefly]

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii

???

Guess you didn't look af the first several videos at SmartAleq's link.

Originally Posted by SmartAleq

Hmmm. Watch through the videos in this thread and if you don't feel queasy afterward then I guess Unca Joe is your kinda guy.

183

[Whack-a-Mole]

Originally Posted by DrDeth

The kremlin could fake a a communist party card for bernie. Then back it with real pics of him at rallies, some of his early papers, etc.

Still whoosh.

Honestly, you are not making sense to me. Probably my fault. I just do not know what you are on about. 184

[SmartAleq]

I already thought his legislative record is not so hot before all of this became the top story.

Yeah, he was a major architect in the War on Some Drugs and that awful crime bill, supported all the shitty wars, gutted regular people's ability to reorganize under bankruptcy and just in general has been no friend to the common citizen. Just another corporate neoliberal, but this one's also a grabby gross uncle too! Yay? 185

[Oakminster]

Now there is a second accuser...CNN Story.


Frankly, I think this is ridiculous. Neither incident sounds like actual abuse, or even attempted impropriety. Strongly suspect political motivations are in play here. 186

[Whack-a-Mole]

Originally Posted by Try2B Comprehensive

Except that Biden isn't accused of anything in the same ballpark as R Kelly. Do people really, truly believe he is a pedophile? Because of a snapshot of him seeming to look at a little girl's chest?

I agree that photo and accusation is ridiculous. An ancient photo taken at an inopportune moment is evidence of nothing. Certainly in my life my gaze has looked in the direction of a young girl's chest. I was not looking at her chest, I have no interest in her chest but there was a moment when my eyes were pointed in that direction. A snapshot at that moment would look bad.

We have no evidence of Biden being a pedophile. We do have lots of photo evidence of him creeping on women. Maybe all those women loved his attention. We cannot know without interviewing them all. If I were a betting man my money, seeing the look on their faces, is they were not all happy with it.

Biden as a pedo? I don't believe it. At least, it needs a LOT more evidence. 187

[Whack-a-Mole]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

Frankly, I think this is ridiculous. Neither incident sounds like actual abuse, or even attempted impropriety. Strongly suspect political motivations are in play here.

Where, for you, is the abuse/impropriety line drawn? 188

[Oakminster]

Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole

Where, for you, is the abuse/impropriety line drawn?

When it's not a years old public incident that has never been mentioned until it appears to be politically beneficial to bring it up is a good place to start. 189

[Whack-a-Mole]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

When it's not a years old public incident that has never been mentioned until it appears to be politically beneficial to bring it up is a good place to start.

We have loads of photos/video of Biden doing his creep thing. Does that change anything for you? 190

[iiandyiiii]

Originally Posted by RTFirefly

Guess you didn't look af the first several videos at SmartAleq's link.

I'm not particularly interested in looking at tailored random internet crap that, according to the descriptions of this thread, very likely blatantly disregards the personhood and wishes of the women and girls involved.

Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole

We do have lots of photo evidence of him creeping on women.

There's no way you could know this, and I'll kindly suggest (once again) that you stop blatantly disregarding the personhood and individuality of these women and girls. 191

[Whack-a-Mole]

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii

There's no way you could know this, and I'll kindly suggest (once again) that you stop blatantly disregarding the personhood and individuality of these women and girls.

And, once again, I will ignore your improper strictures.

I suggest you read SmartAleq's very good post #179 above. 192

[iiandyiiii]

Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole

And, once again, I will ignore your improper strictures.

Okay. I'll continue to call out inappropriate comments about women and girls, since it's so incredibly endemic in our society. Maybe one day you'll consider that you might have the capacity for error in this, as well as the capacity to improve yourself. I hope so.

I suggest you read SmartAleq's very good post #179 above.

I read through it a couple of times, and I'm not sure what it has to do with anything I've posted. I certainly have no interest in defending any bad behavior, by Biden or anyone else. I don't like it when people ignore the personhood of women and girls and assume they know what's going on in their heads, or what's best for them, without giving them the chance to speak for themselves. It's a very common violation, but it's still wrong. 193

[Whack-a-Mole]

nm 194

[WillFarnaby]

You don’t need to know what’s going on in their heads. You could crop them out completely and just look at Biden’s body language and find it to be over-the-top creepy. It is comic-book-level absurdity. Think Montgomery Burns meets Glenn Quagmire.

I am actually concerned for these women and girls and I hope they start blurring the faces of at least the youngest ones. Sadly, the media is in a rather sick way right now and they are showing these inappropriate pictures. 195

[iiandyiiii]

Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole

I'll try this just once more:

- Guy gropes Woman-A and, mildly annoyed, the woman moves on and forgets about it

- Guy gropes Woman-B and she is very annoyed by it and considers it an assault on her person

Is it your contention that it is only an assault if the woman/girl deems it so? Absolutely nothing is different between the two events other than the woman/girl's perception of what happened.

No, that is not my contention, and this has nothing to do with anything I've posted. 196

[Whack-a-Mole]

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii

No, that is not my contention, and this has nothing to do with anything I've posted.

I deleted my post wanting to re-think it but ok...you got it anyway.

I honestly do not know what your position is. Best I can come up with is you do not think I should assume what the myriad of women Unca Joe is creeping on are thinking.

And you are right...I do not know. From where I am sitting it looks super creepy. If they all come out and say no, it was all totally cool, they love Unca Joe's neck-rubs then fine.

Till then Biden looks like a real creep to almost everyone except you. 197

[iiandyiiii]

Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole

I deleted my post wanting to re-think it but ok...you got it anyway.

I honestly do not know what your position is. Best I can come up with is you do not think I should assume what the myriad of women Unca Joe is creeping on are thinking.

And you are right...I do not know. From where I am sitting it looks super creepy. If they all come out and say no, it was all totally cool, they love Unca Joe's neck-rubs then fine.

Till then Biden looks like a real creep to most anyone except you.

I don't really care about anyone saying "that looks creepy" if they see Biden doing something on TV. That doesn't bother me.

I don't like the usage of these lurid videos of women and girls being touched, that were made for political purposes, without the consent of these women and girls. And I don't like others trying to use these nasty, consent-free videos for their own arguments. There are perfectly reasonable criticisms of Biden's behavior, using Flores' account (and apparently a second account I haven't seen yet), that don't require the usage of random internet consent-free nastiness.

And I really don't like your brushing aside the personhood of Stephanie Carter who is perfectly capable of speaking for herself, and did speak for herself, and you continued to implicitly deny that she could have this voice and was capable of having a friend who could give her hugs as they pleased. I can't imagine how you've convinced yourself that you shouldn't have backed off from this. Biden behaved inappropriately with Flores; that doesn't mean that he behaved inappropriately with Carter, especially when she says that they were close friends and she welcomed his affection. Those posts are creepy and gross, and you don't lose anything by considering that maybe you made a mistake and backing off from them. 198

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by WillFarnaby

You don’t need to know what’s going on in their heads. You could crop them out completely and just look at Biden’s body language and find it to be over-the-top creepy. It is comic-book-level absurdity. Think Montgomery Burns meets Glenn Quagmire.

I am actually concerned for these women and girls and I hope they start blurring the faces of at least the youngest ones. Sadly, the media is in a rather sick way right now and they are showing these inappropriate pictures.

Your concern is touching.

No...not touching. What's the word I was looking for? Oh, yeah, I remember now.
Your "concern" is hypocritical. 199

[CarnalK]

Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole

I suggest you read SmartAleq's very good post #179 above.

Yes, the nice objective opinion from an angry Bernie Bro. "Not saying he's a pedophile but..." Thanks for the laugh. 200