#151  
Old 10-18-2019, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
Again, let's get real about what this cartoon is really metaphorically representing. A couple (or more) woke feminist types on Twitter, possibly young WOC, engage in some kind of snarky banter about how much straight white dudes suck. "God love the confidence of a mediocre white man", that type of thing. They don't intend this to be private. They want it to be liked, praised, retweeted to the heavens. What they don't want is for some middle-aged straight white dude to come along and politely object "Really? That's not very nice. What gives you the right to disparage or dismiss me that way without knowing me? Can you offer some actual tangible reason for doing so?"

Now they are BUS-TED. It's very awkward. But along comes this cartoonist to give them an out. Just say the straight white dude is "sealioning" and brush him off, problem solved. It's like the emperor's new clothes: as long as they can get enough of their woke comrades in the amen choir to insist that this all somehow makes sense, they are good to go. Who needs intellectual honesty when you have a bunch of yes-people in your woke bubble to provide you (and each other) constant affirmation and shout down the critics?
...nope. We are actually talking about stuff like this. (Scroll down and read the feed)

Nothing about how "straight white dudes suck." Not a young woman of colour. Not engaging in snarky banter. Just the person who was at the epicentre of the goobergate scandal getting called a murderer by hundreds of anonymous trolls for doing nothing more than promoting her work. But at least most of them who are accusing her of murder are doing so politely.
  #152  
Old 10-18-2019, 07:52 AM
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Because insulting someone and being hostile like your example is relatively clear cut. Asking for proof when someone is accused of treason, which is a capital crime, seems like it's actually relevant to a thread talking about impeachment. Too often words like treason are used with absolutely no justification merely to shape a narrative or score political points. I actually have more of a problem with people who dishonestly call others treasonous, or nazis, or whatever or use the deliberately inflammatory word of the day than I do with those who want those words used narrowly and properly.
You can have precise definitions of words without the disingenuous questioning, though. You can simply include a line in your post like "I don't think treason is the right word, as I limit that to the legal definition. However[...]" and then actually discuss what the poster said.

There just isn't any reason to ask for proof when you are aware that the person isn't using the word in the legal definition. (And, if you're not sure, you can ask if they mean the legal definition.) All that does is show you're trying to shut off the conversation--making it about the definition of "treason."

It's not like the exact words actually matter. If you think that what Trump did is dishonest, corrupt, and bad for America, I don't care if you call it "treason" or not. If you agree that antisemitism and white nationalism are bad, I don't give a shit if you don't want to call them "Nazis."

What matters are the underlying ideas. The words are just how we communicate those ideas, and only important if they cause misunderstandings.
  #153  
Old 10-18-2019, 07:56 AM
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You don't think that.
Cite?
  #154  
Old 10-18-2019, 10:12 AM
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Again, let's get real about what this cartoon is really metaphorically representing. A couple (or more) woke feminist types on Twitter, possibly young WOC, engage in some kind of snarky banter about how much straight white dudes suck. "God love the confidence of a mediocre white man", that type of thing. They don't intend this to be private. They want it to be liked, praised, retweeted to the heavens. What they don't want is for some middle-aged straight white dude to come along and politely object "Really? That's not very nice. What gives you the right to disparage or dismiss me that way without knowing me? Can you offer some actual tangible reason for doing so?"

Now they are BUS-TED. It's very awkward. But along comes this cartoonist to give them an out. Just say the straight white dude is "sealioning" and brush him off, problem solved. It's like the emperor's new clothes: as long as they can get enough of their woke comrades in the amen choir to insist that this all somehow makes sense, they are good to go. Who needs intellectual honesty when you have a bunch of yes-people in your woke bubble to provide you (and each other) constant affirmation and shout down the critics?
I think you might have mislabeled your browser's bookmarks - I'm pretty sure you wanted to post this on Return of Kings, r/redpill or possibly the comment section of a Sargon of Akkad youtube video.
  #155  
Old 10-18-2019, 11:53 AM
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Again, let's get real about what this cartoon is really metaphorically representing. A couple (or more) woke feminist types on Twitter, possibly young WOC, engage in some kind of snarky banter about how much straight white dudes suck. "God love the confidence of a mediocre white man", that type of thing. They don't intend this to be private. They want it to be liked, praised, retweeted to the heavens. What they don't want is for some middle-aged straight white dude to come along and politely object "Really? That's not very nice. What gives you the right to disparage or dismiss me that way without knowing me? Can you offer some actual tangible reason for doing so?"

Now they are BUS-TED. It's very awkward. But along comes this cartoonist to give them an out. Just say the straight white dude is "sealioning" and brush him off, problem solved. It's like the emperor's new clothes: as long as they can get enough of their woke comrades in the amen choir to insist that this all somehow makes sense, they are good to go. Who needs intellectual honesty when you have a bunch of yes-people in your woke bubble to provide you (and each other) constant affirmation and shout down the critics?
Man, this is some pretty paranoid rantings.
  #156  
Old 10-18-2019, 12:10 PM
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Man, this is some pretty paranoid rantings.
There are reasons that chowderhead is on my ignore list. Kinda wish others would ignore him, too, the place is much more pleasant not having to read his idiocy.
  #157  
Old 10-18-2019, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
Again, let's get real about what this cartoon is really metaphorically representing. A couple (or more) woke feminist types on Twitter, possibly young WOC, engage in some kind of snarky banter about how much straight white dudes suck. "God love the confidence of a mediocre white man", that type of thing. They don't intend this to be private. They want it to be liked, praised, retweeted to the heavens. What they don't want is for some middle-aged straight white dude to come along and politely object "Really? That's not very nice. What gives you the right to disparage or dismiss me that way without knowing me? Can you offer some actual tangible reason for doing so?"

Now they are BUS-TED. It's very awkward. But along comes this cartoonist to give them an out. Just say the straight white dude is "sealioning" and brush him off, problem solved. It's like the emperor's new clothes: as long as they can get enough of their woke comrades in the amen choir to insist that this all somehow makes sense, they are good to go. Who needs intellectual honesty when you have a bunch of yes-people in your woke bubble to provide you (and each other) constant affirmation and shout down the critics?
So you are acting as your own conservative strawman so I don't have to go out and find one? Thanks.
  #158  
Old 10-18-2019, 02:43 PM
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That's what happens when like in the US, the definition of "treason" is so narrow that one can blatantly commit treason without it being legal treason. People have to call it something, and most people are going to use the obvious word regardless of the official legal definition.
What do you mean by your second usage of the word "treason"?

j/k

But perhaps I don't agree with what you think is treason? How will I know what you mean by it without asking you?
  #159  
Old 10-18-2019, 02:58 PM
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I don't have anything against red. I explained already that I just get blue shirts and ties so I can mix and match them without much thought. I appreciate your opinion of the color red, thanks for sharing!
But you haven't explained why you won't wear red. You claim that you have nothing against red, but your shirts and ties are all blue, those aren't the actions of someone who doesn't have anything against red.
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See? Doesn't work on me. I bet I can answer questions for a lot longer than you care to ask them
The whole point of it is to exhaust the other person into giving up or conceding out of frustration. I actually have shit to do, and want to spend what time I spend here constructively, so you are absolutely right that you could probably answer questions longer than I care to ask, however if you have plenty of free time, and you desire to use that time to disrupt, rather than participate in a conversation, then you can ask questions for far longer than anyone would care to answer them.

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But how else would someone know why you consider betraying the Kurds "treason" without asking you what you consider "treason" is and why you think betraying the Kurds rises to that definition?

Should people just accept that it is treason because you say so?
No, I have defined my use of the word "treason" by using it in the context of betraying the Kurds. You do not need to accept my definition of treason for your use, but you should accept that I am using it in that way.

If you want to ask why what we did to the Kurds was so bad, that's valid. If you want to ask me to defend my use of the word, then that's a distraction. If the dictionary definition (the action of betraying someone or something) isn't good enough, and you demand that I use the legal definition, then that is completely trying to stop the conversation.

Tell me, which response is more conducive to a productive conversation?

Me: Betraying the Kurds is treason.

Normal poster I'd agree with: I don't know if I would use the word treason to describe the actions, but we really did let them down,

Normal poster I'd disagree with: We didn't really betray them, they knew it was coming eventually, and they had been using our presence as a shield from which to commit terrorist attacks.


Sealion: How is that "TREASON"? Treason is defined as "Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason", so how does legally changing our military priorities meet the legal definition of "TREASON"?

Last edited by k9bfriender; 10-18-2019 at 03:01 PM.
  #160  
Old 10-18-2019, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
...


Sealion: How is that "TREASON"? Treason is defined as "Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason", so how does legally changing our military priorities meet the legal definition of "TREASON"?
And, in the post that got really under my skin (and I think triggered the warning), it was more of a Socratic "in what way was this treason?" without even providing the legal definition the sealion was thinking of, so you don't even know which definition the sealion was going to use. At least with your version, one could respond, "well, it's not treason under the wording of the US Constitution, but it's still betraying the country and its values, etc, whatever, blah." In the real sealion post, you can't even go with that response. Grrr.
  #161  
Old 10-18-2019, 03:11 PM
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So in this video, is the silver haired guy "sealioning" (until the dark haired guy absolutely snaps at the 1 minute mark)?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKTZzktvtTA
  #162  
Old 10-18-2019, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
Again, let's get real about what this cartoon is really metaphorically representing. A couple (or more) woke feminist types on Twitter, possibly young WOC, engage in some kind of snarky banter about how much straight white dudes suck. "God love the confidence of a mediocre white man", that type of thing. They don't intend this to be private. They want it to be liked, praised, retweeted to the heavens. What they don't want is for some middle-aged straight white dude to come along and politely object "Really? That's not very nice. What gives you the right to disparage or dismiss me that way without knowing me? Can you offer some actual tangible reason for doing so?"

Now they are BUS-TED. It's very awkward. But along comes this cartoonist to give them an out. Just say the straight white dude is "sealioning" and brush him off, problem solved. It's like the emperor's new clothes: as long as they can get enough of their woke comrades in the amen choir to insist that this all somehow makes sense, they are good to go. Who needs intellectual honesty when you have a bunch of yes-people in your woke bubble to provide you (and each other) constant affirmation and shout down the critics?
Rather than just pile on with the abuse, I'll agree that the kind of thing you're talking about in this and earlier posts does sometimes happen, it's a problem, and I think some people on the Left should raise the level of discourse.

But sealioning is a real tactic that is used to defocus debate, to distract and troll. Just as with anything, no doubt false accusations of sealioning can sometimes be used in the way you describe. That doesn't mean that sealioning isn't something real and shitty.

I'm also starting to come around to the view that the original cartoon is just confusing, it obfuscates rather than clarifies what the problem of sealioning really is.

Last edited by Riemann; 10-18-2019 at 03:20 PM.
  #163  
Old 10-18-2019, 03:20 PM
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RE: the colloquial use of the word "treason" vs. the legal definition: I got no dog in this fight, but I do have a suggestion: "Treachery" is a word that conveys the notion of deceitful betrayal, including against one's country, without being susceptible to legal-vs.-colloquial-definition nitpicking. (Unless you're talking about the WWII-era U.K.; then it's tricky.) Trump's actions toward the Kurds may or may not be treasonous, but they're damn sure treacherous.

All treason is treacherous, but not all treachery is treasonous.
  #164  
Old 10-18-2019, 05:23 PM
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Good point.


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Originally Posted by Riemann View Post
Rather than just pile on with the abuse, I'll agree that the kind of thing you're talking about in this and earlier posts does sometimes happen, it's a problem, and I think some people on the Left should raise the level of discourse.

But sealioning is a real tactic that is used to defocus debate, to distract and troll. Just as with anything, no doubt false accusations of sealioning can sometimes be used in the way you describe. That doesn't mean that sealioning isn't something real and shitty.

I'm also starting to come around to the view that the original cartoon is just confusing, it obfuscates rather than clarifies what the problem of sealioning really is.

I appreciate your more balanced approach. But as I said above, if sealioning is not what's shown in the cartoon, someone should come up with a new term. I know words can evolve beyond their origins, but this one is recent enough, and still relatively unknown enough, that people are going to google the term and see that cartoon. If what is portrayed there is not at all what is meant, that's a problem. And the sea lion in the cartoon is not "distracting and trolling". He's objecting politely to his kind being disparaged, and asking the woman to justify having done so. That's literally all he is doing.


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Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
...nope. We are actually talking about stuff like this. (Scroll down and read the feed)

Nothing about how "straight white dudes suck." Not a young woman of colour. Not engaging in snarky banter. Just the person who was at the epicentre of the goobergate scandal getting called a murderer by hundreds of anonymous trolls for doing nothing more than promoting her work. But at least most of them who are accusing her of murder are doing so politely.

I don't see how calling someone a murderer or saying they should be in prison has anything to do with sealioning. If the word has morphed that much, it is essentially meaningless. In any case, my defense is not of people like those commenters. It is of people like the sea lion in the cartoon.


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Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
I think you might have mislabeled your browser's bookmarks - I'm pretty sure you wanted to post this on Return of Kings, r/redpill or possibly the comment section of a Sargon of Akkad youtube video.

Not at all. My cousin is into that stuff, and it horrifies me much more than the "woke" crowd I find so aggravating. Let's posit a "continuum of wokeness" from -100 to +100, with Sargon at say -90, and iiandyiii at +85. I would place myself at about +35. That's certainly far enough away from Andy to at minimum massively roll my eyes at his political correctness, and often to get really irked by it. But while he's 50 points away from me in one direction, Sargon is 125 points in the other direction. To people like you, though, we are both compressed together, somewhere off on the distant alt-right horizon.


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Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
So you are acting as your own conservative strawman so I don't have to go out and find one? Thanks.

Nope. Like Sam Harris, in no sane political philosophy am I conservative. I always vote for (and donate to, and volunteer for) Democrats, I support much greater taxation on the wealthy, universal healthcare and a strong social safety net, worker safety protections, a substantial increase in the minimum wage, strict environmental regulation, reparations for slavery, dramatically increased funding for schools, gay marriage, free speech and assembly, protection of the rights of the accused, separation of church and state, etc. I am a liberal in almost every respect. I'm just not a "woke" identity politics progressive. But you woke types can't handle nuance very well (not that right wingers can either), so it's easier to simply label me as a conservative and not have to think.
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  #165  
Old 10-18-2019, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
He's objecting politely to his kind being disparaged, and asking the woman to justify having done so. That's literally all he is doing.
In your description of "literally" everything the sea lion does, you left out the part where he stalks the couple to the point of showing up uninvited in their house.




With that said, I don't see the particular relevance of this comic to public internet discussions.
  #166  
Old 10-18-2019, 05:56 PM
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With that said, I don't see the particular relevance of this comic to public internet discussions.
I don't either, but I do look forward to SlackerInc's scholarly dissection of the pernicious RadFem misandrist subtext behind The Family Circus and Marmaduke.
  #167  
Old 10-18-2019, 06:04 PM
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For sure, because I created this thread by misapplying some random cartoon to Internet discussions when that was not intended and has never been done before. Oh wait, that’s not what happened at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellestal View Post
In your description of "literally" everything the sea lion does, you left out the part where he stalks the couple to the point of showing up uninvited in their house.

It’s a fair point that the part you point to is a perplexing element. I’m not sure what that’s supposed to represent. I guess I take it as simply his showing up in different threads or whatever, but if someone else can shed some light I’d be happy to reevaluate.
  #168  
Old 10-18-2019, 06:05 PM
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I don't see how calling someone a murderer or saying they should be in prison has anything to do with sealioning. If the word has morphed that much, it is essentially meaningless. In any case, my defense is not of people like those commenters. It is of people like the sea lion in the cartoon.
...if the word has "morphed this much?"

You are a fucking stupid buffoon.

Learn your history. It hasn't morphed. The word was coined to describe this very behaviour. That's how sealioning actually looks like in the real world: not that ridiculous fantasy scenario you invented out of nothing. Sealioning is harassment. Its always been about harassment and trolling and it has been since the word was adopted by the anti-goobergate community way back in good-old 2014. Some examples from that thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by that thread
Iíve never heard of you before this week but all of a sudden EVERYONE wants me to hate you. Donít really know what to believe but I hope it isnít true what they are saying.

...

You know, I remembered playing Night in the Woods for the first time. It was one of the most heartfelt, story heavy and just generally incredible games I've ever played. I was so excited for more. Why did you have to take that magic away from me? Why did you have to kill him?

...

I wonder if there is any anti-suicidal trope

...

So you're donating the proceeds to Alec's family right?

...

Thanks for the heads up! I know what not to buy next time I go to the store. Enjoy being a murderer .

...

Can I get my copy with a life altering allegation or is that reserved for personal reasons?

...

How does it feel to kill a man? Good?

...

Dear
@Marvel
Whatever dead souled idiot that decided hiring a grifter would be good outrage marketing should be fired.

Zoe has been called out as a con artist by trans activists, gay rights activists, ex BFs, ex colleagues and everyone in between.

Hire smarter.

...

Wheres the 85000 dollars you stole from kickstarter. It's really hard to say because you have been very dishonest in the past I pray that you are not lying because someone killed themselves because of you allegation.

...

Is it true that you got a guy fired and also blew a crowd funding?

...

Where is the 85k+ you scammed out of your backers and gave them no game and no updates for a year ? Miss Professional victim ?

...

Where is my $20 that I donated for a game that never came out? Yeah, you remember that? Where is the $85,000 you've crowdfunded?

...

.... so whats your body count???

...

Wonderful to see your books are on sale! Though I donít buy literature from murderers so....

...

remember this author put out unproven allegations that lead to a great contributor to the game industry to lose his art, work, friends and family, he took his life. Look up Alec Ho$o&ka and decide whether you want to support this woman

...

Now that more facts are comming on the Alec case, it seems that you actually killed the guy. At least take blame for it and confess. Like, its something that a normal person would do, even if its harmful for your PR, but .... for now you behave like a disgusting human being.
Much more at the link. For background check out here and here.

You are defending these people. You don't get to rewrite history. The origins of the word are clear.
  #169  
Old 10-18-2019, 06:13 PM
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Itís a fair point that the part you point to is a perplexing element.
...its the entire point of the cartoon. That you find it "perplexing" yet consider yourself such an expert on the subject that you think the "definition has morphed" just goes to show how much of an ignorant buffoon you really are.
  #170  
Old 10-18-2019, 06:18 PM
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BB, It’s not possible for me to be defending a group of people about something I’ve never even heard of before. I have no idea why they are calling her a murderer, although I assume it is a bogus accusation. But the sea lion in the cartoon is not doing anything like that. He doesn’t call her names or accuse her of anything, in fact, except being prejudiced against him and being unwilling to explain why.


And if you are claiming that sealioning predates the web comic, I’m afraid I’m very skeptical of that and I’m going to have to ask for a cite, no matter how ironic anyone might find that.

ETA: In what world do harsh and presumably slanderous accusations in a public Twitter comment thread map to polite questions at someone’s home? That’s as clear as mud.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 10-18-2019 at 06:21 PM.
  #171  
Old 10-18-2019, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
BB, Itís not possible for me to be defending a group of people about something Iíve never even heard of before. I have no idea why they are calling her a murderer, although I assume it is a bogus accusation. But the sea lion in the cartoon is not doing anything like that. He doesnít call her names or accuse her of anything, in fact, except being prejudiced against him and being unwilling to explain why.


And if you are claiming that sealioning predates the web comic, Iím afraid Iím very skeptical of that and Iím going to have to ask for a cite, no matter how ironic anyone might find that.

ETA: In what world do harsh and presumably slanderous accusations in a public Twitter comment thread map to polite questions at someoneís home? Thatís as clear as mud.
How would you characterize HD's specific flavor of trolling? It's very clear, IMO, that he's almost always not making an attempt at an honest exchange of ideas and arguments.
  #172  
Old 10-18-2019, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
BB, Itís not possible for me to be defending a group of people about something Iíve never even heard of before.
...and yet here you are.

Quote:
I have no idea why they are calling her a murderer, although I assume it is a bogus accusation.
I provided two cites for background.

Quote:
But the sea lion in the cartoon is not doing anything like that. He doesnít call her names or accuse her of anything, in fact, except being prejudiced against him and being unwilling to explain why.
The sealion in the cartoon was used to describe a set of behaviours that had been adopted by a certain crowd on the internet. Intrinsic to that cartoon are the frames where the sealion shows up uninvited to the house. It isn't sealioning if that doesn't happen. And in the example I provided Z#$ Quinn started a thread to talk about her new creative works and it was brigaged by people asking her questions about being a murderer in a variety of different and polite ways.

Quote:
And if you are claiming that sealioning predates the web comic, Iím afraid Iím very skeptical of that and Iím going to have to ask for a cite, no matter how ironic anyone might find that.
I'm not claiming this, and one has to simply look at the cites already provided in this thread as to the origin of the word to be able to figure out where the word came from. The cartoon isn't "the definition." Its where the term originated, that's all.

Quote:
ETA: In what world do harsh and presumably slanderous accusations in a public Twitter comment thread map to polite questions at someoneís home? Thatís as clear as mud.
In what world does a sealion actually talk, and walk, and would actually be capable of asking "polite questions at someone's home?"

Are you really this fucking stupid? Do you actually think the cartoon was being literal? "The home" is the "twitter thread." The thread was about Quinn's accomplishments. The sealions in that thread were asking questions like "are you a murderer? Just asking for a friend." It doesn't have to exactly replicate the conditionals of the cartoon because thats how things work in the real world.
  #173  
Old 10-18-2019, 06:48 PM
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Then it’s some kind of abusive behavior that is not sealioning. It’s not either sealioning or nothing at all. There are many words in the dictionary and many different ways for people to act.

Also, when you create a Twitter thread, assuming you don’t protect your tweets, it is not your “home” any more than a thread you create on this board is your home. You seriously need to get a clue if you don’t understand that. It’s even more ridiculous on Twitter, which is very close to unmoderated. No one has a right to tweet publicly and get only positive responses. If you don’t like that, don’t use Twitter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
How would you characterize HD's specific flavor of trolling? It's very clear, IMO, that he's almost always not making an attempt at an honest exchange of ideas and arguments.

I have seen people cite posts of his that seem to be defending violence and things like that, which is totally beyond the pale. I don’t know if that means he is not being honest. You would have to cite an example if you want me to be more specific than that.

But again, there is no indication that the sea lion in the comic is being dishonest.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 10-18-2019 at 06:50 PM.
  #174  
Old 10-18-2019, 06:50 PM
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I have seen people cite posts of his that seem to be defending violence and things like that, which is totally beyond the pale. I don’t know if that means he is not being honest. You would have to cite an example if you want me to be more specific than that.
That it's not wildly evident to you already is enough of an answer for me.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 10-18-2019 at 06:51 PM.
  #175  
Old 10-18-2019, 06:54 PM
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How would you characterize HD's specific flavor of trolling? It's very clear, IMO, that he's almost always not making an attempt at an honest exchange of ideas and arguments.
...you see I don't think that quite right. HD reflects the views of millions of Americans. They are indoctrinated. He lives in a post truth world where everything is best articulated by a talking point. From his point of view arguing via talking point is an " honest exchange of ideas and arguments", IHMO.
  #176  
Old 10-18-2019, 07:02 PM
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...you see I don't think that quite right. HD reflects the views of millions of Americans. They are indoctrinated. He lives in a post truth world where everything is best articulated by a talking point. From his point of view arguing via talking point is an " honest exchange of ideas and arguments", IHMO.
I think threads like this (a them in which he's repeatedly come back to) demonstrate his lack of interest in actual debate and exchange of ideas with those he disagrees with: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=860772

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=831416

Also this: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=864198

and: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=840554

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=842802

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=846754

These are not honest attempts to engage. These are disguised trolling threads.
  #177  
Old 10-18-2019, 07:15 PM
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...you see I don't think that quite right. HD reflects the views of millions of Americans. They are indoctrinated. He lives in a post truth world where everything is best articulated by a talking point. From his point of view arguing via talking point is an " honest exchange of ideas and arguments", IHMO.
Even if that's true, it's not inconsistent with his use of sealioning as a general approach to debate. For those who don't like the term "sealioning" because it sounds like some kind of new Internet meme introduced by a clever and fashionable cartoon strip, the concept is not new at all. It's closely related to a type of harassment that is as old as human relations, practiced from childhood but familiar to all ages, where the instigator quietly pokes at the victim while staying within the nominal rules of behavior ("I'm not touching you!") until the victim becomes the one who cracks and transgresses the rules, or the law, and the victim is the one who suffers the consequences. This is pretty much HD's modus operandi. If he's not an actual sea lion, by golly I think we should throw him some fresh fish anyway, I'm sure he'll gulp it right down and bark his thanks.
  #178  
Old 10-18-2019, 07:16 PM
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Then itís some kind of abusive behavior that is not sealioning.
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Originally Posted by Wiki
Sealioning (also spelled sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment which consists of pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

Harassment is part of the definition of the word. It was coined to describe abusive behaviour. You don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

Quote:
Itís not either sealioning or nothing at all. There are many words in the dictionary and many different ways for people to act.
I'm inclined to accept the definition provided by wiki and I will decline to accept the definition of the guy who was "perplexed" by the entire point of the original cartoon.

Quote:
Also, when you create a Twitter thread, assuming you donít protect your tweets, it is not your ďhomeĒ any more than a thread you create on this board is your home.
The cartoon was not being 100% literal you buffoon. It was an analogy.

Sealioning defines the behaviour. It isn't a statement on what happens if you do or you don't protect your tweets. That's irrelevant to the definition.

Quote:
You seriously need to get a clue if you donít understand that. Itís even more ridiculous on Twitter, which is very close to unmoderated. No one has a right to tweet publicly and get only positive responses.
Just fuck right off with this bullshit. Sealioning defines the behaviour. If you behave like this you are a sealion. Thats it. I'm not making a statement on "what should be" or "what shouldn't be" allowed. Stop pivoting.

Quote:
If you donít like that, donít use Twitter.
Sealioning was an effective tactic until it was identified, defined, and then people learnt how to combat it. You don't get to decide who can and can't use Twitter.
  #179  
Old 10-18-2019, 07:42 PM
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I think threads like this (a them in which he's repeatedly come back to) demonstrate his lack of interest in actual debate and exchange of ideas with those he disagrees with: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=860772

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=831416

Also this: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=864198

and: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=840554

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=842802

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=846754

These are not honest attempts to engage. These are disguised trolling threads.
...with respect, whether or not a thread topic is "trolling" is subjective, and I looked at all those threads and I personally don't see it. But even if I were to accept that they were all troll threads, this thread here is about sealioning. As I said earlier: I personally can't separate the term from its origins. And it origins were the fallout from goobergate. It will always be linked to that hateful, destructive campaign. And the harassment part of the definition is an essential element. What happened in that Z@e Quinn thread I cited absolutely was sealioning. HD's typical behaviour here? You can call it bad-faith, disingenuous, trolling, all sorts of words fit. But he isn't harassing anyone. He isn't posting here with the intent of destroying anyone here. And I personally think the distinction matters.
  #180  
Old 10-18-2019, 07:55 PM
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...with respect, whether or not a thread topic is "trolling" is subjective, and I looked at all those threads and I personally don't see it. But even if I were to accept that they were all troll threads, this thread here is about sealioning. As I said earlier: I personally can't separate the term from its origins. And it origins were the fallout from goobergate. It will always be linked to that hateful, destructive campaign. And the harassment part of the definition is an essential element. What happened in that Z@e Quinn thread I cited absolutely was sealioning. HD's typical behaviour here? You can call it bad-faith, disingenuous, trolling, all sorts of words fit. But he isn't harassing anyone. He isn't posting here with the intent of destroying anyone here. And I personally think the distinction matters.
Then my understanding of sealioning differs from yours. What happened to Quinn was straight harassment -- sealioning is more subtle, as I understand it.
  #181  
Old 10-18-2019, 08:03 PM
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Then my understanding of sealioning differs from yours. What happened to Quinn was straight harassment -- sealioning is more subtle, as I understand it.
...no, that was classic sealioning. It can be subtle, but it doesn't have to be and trust me: goobergaters are not subtle. Sealioning is straight harassment. It was a tactic used to harass women and marginalised people who spoke out against goobergate. The term appears to be adopting new usage and I have no objections to that, but I personally won't be able to seperate the term from its origins.
  #182  
Old 10-18-2019, 08:32 PM
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But you haven't explained why you won't wear red. You claim that you have nothing against red, but your shirts and ties are all blue, those aren't the actions of someone who doesn't have anything against red.
None of these are questions, thus I don't need to respond.


Quote:
The whole point of it is to exhaust the other person into giving up or conceding out of frustration. I actually have shit to do, and want to spend what time I spend here constructively, so you are absolutely right that you could probably answer questions longer than I care to ask, however if you have plenty of free time, and you desire to use that time to disrupt, rather than participate in a conversation, then you can ask questions for far longer than anyone would care to answer them
I don't consider asking someone to define what they are posting and why they are posting it as a disruption. It seems to me that only people who don't want to actually explain their opinion on a topic would consider it disruptive, since it generally looks to me that they only want people to agree with them without any thought involved.

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No, I have defined my use of the word "treason" by using it in the context of betraying the Kurds. You do not need to accept my definition of treason for your use, but you should accept that I am using it in that way
That's fair. That makes rebuttals simple - "I don't agree with you that betraying the Kurds is treason."

My guess is at that point, a poster would say "Of course it's treason you Trump lover!" because now it seems like we are moving more toward a "Just agree with me or else I will call you a sealioning troll!" type of subject.


Quote:
Tell me, which response is more conducive to a productive conversation?

Me: Betraying the Kurds is treason.

Normal poster I'd agree with: I don't know if I would use the word treason to describe the actions, but we really did let them down,

Normal poster I'd disagree with: We didn't really betray them, they knew it was coming eventually, and they had been using our presence as a shield from which to commit terrorist attacks.


Sealion: How is that "TREASON"? Treason is defined as "Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason", so how does legally changing our military priorities meet the legal definition of "TREASON"?
A more productive conversation would be

You: We shouldn't betray the Kurds because of such and such reasons.

Me: I agree, or, I disagree.

But it seems to me that people like to use the worst possible words to describe something they think is bad, and when called on it, get defensive and now start saying "sealioning!"

See the "Concentration camp" thread for an example.
  #183  
Old 10-18-2019, 09:06 PM
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Worst. Possible. President. In. Office.
  #184  
Old 10-18-2019, 09:09 PM
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Worst. Possible. President. In. Office.
Is this supposed to be in one of the 3737383 threads that are actually about Trump?
  #185  
Old 10-18-2019, 09:14 PM
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...no, that was classic sealioning. It can be subtle, but it doesn't have to be and trust me: goobergaters are not subtle. Sealioning is straight harassment. It was a tactic used to harass women and marginalised people who spoke out against goobergate. The term appears to be adopting new usage and I have no objections to that, but I personally won't be able to seperate the term from its origins.
Straight harassment was done by the Gamergaters, the standard defense tacticof that harassment is where Sealioning was employed the most.

I'm sure we can remember:

"Can you prove you were harassed?"
"Do you really think that's proof of harassment? I got a mean tweet once and it didn't bother me."
"Can you really call that 'threatening'? After all it is just a tweet, they can't actually touch you to rape you, so what's the problem?"
"Just because they posted your address online doesn't mean you're being harassed. They used to put people's address in the phone books!"


etc.
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  #186  
Old 10-18-2019, 09:20 PM
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Is this supposed to be in one of the 3737383 threads that are actually about Trump?
Prime example of sealioning right here!
  #187  
Old 10-18-2019, 09:21 PM
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You do not need to accept my definition of treason for your use, but you should accept that I am using it in that way.
That's what Humpty Dumpty said.
  #188  
Old 10-18-2019, 09:46 PM
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Please quote where Humpty Dumpty said that exact thing or admit that you lied.
  #189  
Old 10-18-2019, 10:21 PM
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Please quote where Humpty Dumpty said that exact thing or admit that you lied.
  #190  
Old 10-19-2019, 01:32 AM
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I am a liberal in almost every respect. I'm just not a "woke" identity politics progressive. But you woke types can't handle nuance very well (not that right wingers can either), so it's easier to simply label me as a conservative and not have to think.
I'm going to drop the caustic sarcasm for just you, just this once because maybe this might shake your shit more but... on these particular issues you're not at "+35". And you're committing the exact sin you think we're guilty of. You call me woke (well, I assume I was included in the "you woke types") but woke is the last thing I'd describe myself as. I know fuck all about feminist theory or gender theory. Trans people kind of gently wig me out (though by all means, if it floats their boat etc... and I see no reason whatsoever to be a dick about it - I just can't relate very much). I'm a straight white male with neither tattoos nor blue hair nor hair knot. I'm not on the twitters or the facebooks. In fact, my only connection to woke people is via ultra antifeminists whose videos I watch for the sheer entertainment of watching them own themselves - it turns out that when you watch a lot of video game related content on YouTube, the algos determine you might also like insufferable, unfuckable troglodytes explaining at length how cultural marxists are implementing a jewish agenda to put women in hollywood movies which will destroy western civilization. It's hilarious (although less when you stop to think about it)

But here's the thing : your first go to example of "bad people on the twitters" was a badly constructed strawman caricature of women (I'm sorry, black women... because that matters I assume ? Am I supposed to know how those people are ?) badmouthing all white men which... well, I won't say has never happened in the history of the world but I can't say I've ever encountered, ever, in any shape or form. And the existence of unfounded criticism of All White Men on twitter certainly doesn't bother me, inasmuch as I don't go looking for it. It certainly doesn't exist on this forum (maybe in MPSIMS ? I don't go there much, is that where I'd find a nest... hive... cell... vaginal powwow of catty feminists ?), yet you seem convinced accusations of sealioning comes from those spheres. You described a woman saying "I could do without sealions" as, and I quote "catty and nasty", for chrissakes.
And I think the fact that a number of people in this thread, myself included, have mocked you as a regressive troglodyte when it comes to the whole "feminazis persecuting white men" thing while none whatsoever has expressed support should tell you something - this board might skew left (or at least, skew Democratic, which isn't quite the same thing, and yet more removed from any form or radicalism whatsoever) but not that left. Sooooo yeah, no, really, you're not in the middle on this. You're not being a moderate. You're using the exact same language as alt-right crazies and gamergaters to rail against one of their favourite strawmen. Trust me on this. I've watched and read (and laughed at) a LOT of toxic antifeminist garbage. I can provide entirely too many links if need be, although I won't because I'd hate to give them a cent in youtube ad money.

If you indeed mislike those people, as you purport to, that should give you at least a little bit of pause. Maybe the call is coming from inside the house, you feel me ?

Last edited by Kobal2; 10-19-2019 at 01:33 AM.
  #191  
Old 10-19-2019, 03:28 AM
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the sea lion in the cartoon is not "distracting and trolling". He's objecting politely to his kind being disparaged, and asking the woman to justify having done so. That's literally all he is doing.
Err, no. He's also stalking, home invading and butting into conversations uninvited.
  #192  
Old 10-19-2019, 04:46 AM
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You guys get back to me when you have decided whether he is home invading or not and what that metaphorically represents online.


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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I think threads like this (a them in which he's repeatedly come back to) demonstrate his lack of interest in actual debate and exchange of ideas with those he disagrees with: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=860772

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=831416

Also this: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=864198

and: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=840554

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=842802

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=846754

These are not honest attempts to engage. These are disguised trolling threads.

Andy, you said upthread that the fact that I said I needed examples before I could get more specific than that gave you all the answer you need. But that is undermined by this subsequent post where you did give examples. Maybe you weren’t offering them for me, but I looked at them—and I would agree that they are trollish.

You know what else I noticed about them? I have never seen any of them before in my life. As I have said many times, I don’t lurk in threads I don’t post in. So check for yourself. I was not present to witness any of that.


I would be surprised, actually, if I have ever read any thread started by HD. I post my share of individual posts on this board, but not in all that many threads, especially if you don’t count movie and TV threads in Cafť Society. I just don’t spread myself around the board like a lot of posters do. And I don’t browse subject boards either. I use notifications to go back to the ones I’m already in, and occasionally over the past few months I find new ones like this one because they are publicized on the Giraffe boards. But even there it had nothing to do with HD, with whom I really am not that familiar. It was because the subject line talked about this stupid concept of sealioning, which is a personal pet peeve.

So I did in fact need examples to know what you were talking about with HD, and now I definitely do see what you mean. OK?

ETA: I have clearly been living a charmed life to miss all his nonsense, that’s for sure.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 10-19-2019 at 04:51 AM.
  #193  
Old 10-19-2019, 07:10 AM
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Just so I'm clear, you're now saying that sealioning, at least how it's been defined here nicely by Ravenman and Bone, is a thing and HD for one engages in it? Because if so, that would be two admissions of error in one thread, and I should get some kind of award for starting it.
  #194  
Old 10-19-2019, 07:50 AM
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You guys get back to me when you have decided whether he is home invading or not
You seriously think he isn't?

But can we be clear that politely asking questions is not "all he's doing"?
  #195  
Old 10-19-2019, 08:26 AM
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He is home invading, which is what makes the situation complicated, because contrary to what the creator and some in this thread contend, being a sealion is an immutable characteristic and so the panel cannot be completely free of the insinuation that the initial speaker was prejudiced against sealions.

To me, the most relevant parallel to online humans I can construct would be if a Stormfronter said "i just don't like black people" and a black person saw that followed them around and even onto their web site demanding a conversation. And then when that didn't happen they doxxed the Stormfronter, at which point the bigot says to his fellow bigots "see, told you. Black people." Doxxing isn't the right thing to do, but then again, neither is being a bigot and it doesn't prove that all black people are angry doxxers.

I don't know if there was a specific Gamergate comment that sparked this comic, but if there is, then it depends on the specific words used. If they said "wow, those Gamergaters are really something aren't they" then the sealioning is an indefensible reaction to a run of the mill comment; on the other hand if they said "wow, gamers are really a piece of work aren't they?" then it's an indefensible reaction to an indefensible comment, because "gamer" is a mutable but irrelevant characteristic.

Last edited by Ludovic; 10-19-2019 at 08:29 AM.
  #196  
Old 10-19-2019, 09:09 AM
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He is home invading, which is what makes the situation complicated, because contrary to what the creator and some in this thread contend, being a sealion is an immutable characteristic and so the panel cannot be completely free of the insinuation that the initial speaker was prejudiced against sealions.
Not prejudiced. Just judiced. Since in that world, sealions clearly are dicks.
  #197  
Old 10-19-2019, 09:15 AM
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Not prejudiced. Just judiced. Since in that world, sealions clearly are dicks.
It might be one out of a thousand sea lions that act like that.
  #198  
Old 10-19-2019, 09:46 AM
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#NotAllSeaLions
  #199  
Old 10-19-2019, 09:57 AM
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You guys get back to me when you have decided whether he is home invading or not and what that metaphorically represents online.
The author of the original comic clarified quite specifically what he meant the sealion's behavior to metaphorically represent:
Quote:
The sea lion character is not meant to represent actual sea lions, or any actual animal. It is meant as a metaphorical stand-in for human beings that display certain behaviors. Since behaviors are the result of choice, I would assert that the womanís objection to sea lions ó which, if the metaphor is understood, is read as actually an objection to human beings who exhibit certain behaviors ó is not analogous to a prejudice based on race, species, or other immutable characteristics.
So no, the sealion in the comic is not an innocent victim of gratuitous abuse who is politely seeking an explanation of the abuse. The sealion character is a pestering asshole created specifically for the purpose of mocking the behavior of pestering assholes.
  #200  
Old 10-19-2019, 10:29 AM
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When everyone is using a term and understanding each other, but your definition does not align with that understanding, the parsimonious explanation is that you are the one who is wrong.
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