Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #6001  
Old 12-08-2019, 06:25 PM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,670
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
If Trump was truly concerned that Biden might have broken the law, he would have referred any evidence to US law enforcement officials. He didn't - he asked another country to do it. That's because he had no evidence and is only worried about politics. If he had evidence, he'd present it, and law enforcement would be investigating.
Actually, Trump did not even care if the other country did an investigation. Trump wanted Ukraine to ANNOUNCE in public (on CNN) that they would investigate. That's all he cared about. The announcement was designed to damage his political opponent. An actual investigation was not required by Trump.

And as others have stated - repeating Russian propaganda from a Russian propaganda site to defend Trump, who is currently working on behalf of the Russians is not really that convincing.
  #6002  
Old 12-08-2019, 06:31 PM
bobot's Avatar
bobot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 9,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
Actually, Trump did not even care if the other country did an investigation. Trump wanted Ukraine to ANNOUNCE in public (on CNN) that they would investigate. That's all he cared about...
Yep. He saw the effect Comey's announcement had on his then opponent, and wanted a repeat. Because Trump, like most Republicans, can't win a fair election and is aware of that fact.
  #6003  
Old 12-08-2019, 07:05 PM
Banquet Bear's Avatar
Banquet Bear is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 5,748
...from your cite:

Quote:
Derkach publicized documents which, as he said, "describe the mechanism of getting money by Biden Sr." at a press conference at Interfax-Ukraine's press center in Kyiv on Wednesday.

"This was the transfer of Burisma Group's funds for lobbying activities, as investigators believe, personally to Joe Biden through a lobbying company. Funds in the amount of $900,000 were transferred to the U.S.-based company Rosemont Seneca Partners, which according to open sources, in particular, the New York Times, is affiliated with Biden. The payment reference was payment for consultative services," Derkach said.

He also publicized sums that were transferred to Burisma Group representatives, in particular Hunter Biden, a son of the former U.S. vice president.
Are you actually interested in the facts?

The $900,000 was transferred to Rosemont Seneca Partners. The claim is made that Rosemount is "affiliated" with Biden, Rosemont is clearly affiliated with Hunter Biden but I can't find any connection with Joe Biden nor can I find any evidence that the transfer ended up in the hands of Joe Biden either. This is all deceptive sleight of hand by Andriy Derkach, whom has been described by peers as "not credible” and called a "professional disinformer."

Can you provide the documents that Derkach claims to have possession of? Can you show that that money ended up in the hands of Joe Biden?
  #6004  
Old 12-08-2019, 07:09 PM
ThelmaLou's Avatar
ThelmaLou is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Neither here nor there
Posts: 17,088
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
...Are you actually interested in the facts?

....
My guess would be no.
  #6005  
Old 12-08-2019, 07:32 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,416
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfriver View Post
Trump, chief law enforcer of the U.S., has tried to get an investigation underway but the democrats all cry Trump is only targeting political opponents. Biden is using running for office to shield an investigation.
So you have information that Joe Biden committed a crime and you're certain that it's true and merits investigation, but you're also sure that the FBI isn't investigating the subject even though that's their job, even though they arrest a fairly equal spread of liberal and conservative p politicians each year and have for the last many decades, and their boss certainly would like them to do so?

You might want to review whatever reasoning allowed you to come to that stance since that stance is about equivalent to saying that you know that X flavored ice cream is the ultimate and best flavor of ice cream and, dammit, there's a conspiracy at Baskin Robbins not to make it! Those evil people!

If someone made that statement to you, about ice cream, which of these two flavors is more likely to be X?

1) Cinnamon
2) Headcheese

Maybe it's not a conspiracy by Baskin Robbins?

It is corrupt for the President to ask the FBI to investigate his political opponent. And it is corrupt for the President to try and conduct that investigation through his second personal lawyer to be under Federal investigation by the FBI.

The Democrats might well be attacking Trump for corrupt reasons but that doesn't mean that there are no plainly just and moral reasons to make those same attacks.

This is not a Hollywood movie. Having a narrative that Joe Biden is the evil Hellspawn of Satan and that anything is fair in the aim of taking him down is fantasy. You watch too much TV and too much opinion commentary.

On TV, it is fair for the "good guys" to shoot out the windows of their car while driving a hundred miles per hour on the freeway. In real life, that's criminal. They're murdering more Innocents than they're saving. And, fundamentally, we're talking about a fantasy setting where there are legitimately "good guys" and "bad guys".

In the real world, both sides can be corrupt and horrible. In the real world, you can be chearing for your favorite football team thinking, "Yeah, you guys, go out there and WIN WIN WIN!" And you're happy when they do, ignoring that half of the lot of them have been accused of sex crimes, that most of them are having their brains destroyed, and most of them are going to come out of all of this in debt and with sex and drug addictions. You're just cheering on a bunch of bad people who are mostly ruining their own and others lives.

If you enjoy ignoring reality, in the name of entertainment, keep it to fiction.

But if you want to actually talk about reality then, again, go ahead and name all of Trump's friends that he has put in jail, explain to me why you believe that extortion, bribery, abuse of power, etc. shouldn't be considered crimes, and explain to me why the President can't leave it to the FBI to investigate the things that we all can be pretty certain the FBI is aware of given that they also have access to the public news reporting of the nation.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 12-08-2019 at 07:36 PM.
  #6006  
Old 12-08-2019, 08:17 PM
Sherrerd's Avatar
Sherrerd is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 7,442
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfriver View Post
Investigate possible kickbacks Biden and others have received from Ukraine.
Biden has taken $900,000 from Ukraine lobbyists. Is that no concern to you?

Im sure you have heard Biden tell the story of how he used a billion dollars in taxpayer aid to get a prosecutor fired. That would be fine if it were for American interests, but they seem like personal interests when it happens to be the prosecutor investigating his son's company in Ukraine. ...
Just to tease out one aspect of the Trump/Kremlin propaganda about Biden that's repeated in the post quoted above (my bolding):

Quote:
• Biden did want Shokin fired, but western leaders had widely criticized the prosecutor general as corrupt and ineffective. Biden was leading a widespread consensus in asking for removal.

• A former Ukrainian official said the investigation into Burisma was dormant under Shokin.

There is evidence that many Western leaders and institutions, as well as Ukrainian anti-corruption activists, viewed Shokin as corrupt and ineffective for failing to prosecute anybody of significance, and for protecting members of Yanukovych’s and Poroshenko’s circles.
When Shokin was fired in the spring of 2016, press reports explicitly linked his ouster to corruption.

Steven Pifer, a career foreign service officer who held positions in the Clinton and George W. Bush administrations, previously told PolitiFact that "virtually everyone" he knew in the U.S. government and virtually all non-governmental experts on Ukraine "felt that Shokin was not doing his job and should be fired."
"All decent people were in favor of Shokin's sacking," Anders Åslund, a resident fellow at the Atlantic Council told PolitiFact. "Biden led a Western/anticorruption consensus."

Shokin did inherit some of the investigations into Burisma and owner Zlochevsky. Recently, Shokin said in a statement that his refusal to formally close the investigations led to his ouster.

But Vitaliy Kasko, who served as Shokin’s deputy overseeing international cooperation until he resigned in protest, told Bloomberg in 2019 that, under Shokin, the investigation into Burisma remained dormant. Kasko said the matter was "shelved by Ukrainian prosecutors in 2014 and through 2015," and Bloomberg reported that documents backed up his account. ...
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-and-prosecut/

So the prosecutor Biden helped get fired, Shokin, was fired because he was NOT investigating the company Biden's son worked for (or any other).

Biden's action in firing Shokin increased the chances that Biden's son's company might be investigated (by a less-corrupt prosecutor who would succeed Shokin). Thus Biden's action was the opposite of protecting his son.

A problem for those attempting to spread propaganda, is that the actual facts undercut the propaganda so neatly and so completely.
  #6007  
Old 12-08-2019, 08:30 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
Andriy Derkach, whom has been described by peers as "not credible” and called a "professional disinformer."
Let's also note:

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...&postcount=181
  #6008  
Old 12-08-2019, 09:49 PM
Senegoid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Sunny California
Posts: 15,321

Trump is (already) a dictator


Just spotted this op-ed from several days ago (Dec. 5, ancient history already), but I don't see it mentioned in this thread yet: Laurence H. Tribe says Trump has become a dictator:

Democrats are debating a dangerous false choice on impeachment, Laurence H. Tribe, Washington Post, Dec. 5, 2019.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurence H. Tribe
A president whose Justice Department says he cannot be indicted, whose White House counsel says he cannot even be investigated and whose lawyers say he can block the executive branch from participating in the impeachment process is a president who has become a dictator. None of us can feel safe in such a regime.
__________________
=========================================
  #6009  
Old 12-08-2019, 09:58 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senegoid View Post
Just spotted this op-ed from several days ago (Dec. 5, ancient history already), but I don't see it mentioned in this thread yet: Laurence H. Tribe says Trump has become a dictator:

Democrats are debating a dangerous false choice on impeachment, Laurence H. Tribe, Washington Post, Dec. 5, 2019.
Strangely, but I think more telling was this story:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...tary-dog-conan

And a picture of the dog's undercarriage:

https://images.app.goo.gl/6NeCT8Met6U3q3FY7

That's really some, "The Great Leader does not poo.", sort of nonsense and people are being promoted and fired in our government and military based on their willingness to go along with denials of blatant reality. Whether the dog has a dick is not subjective.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 12-08-2019 at 09:59 PM.
  #6010  
Old 12-08-2019, 10:07 PM
DWMarch is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Nanaimo, BC
Posts: 2,170
The idea that Hunter Biden had the keys to the kingdom at Burisma is silly to begin with.

I work for a company. That company has board members. I am sure these are powerful and influential people. However, I do not know them by sight. If one of them came up to me and said "I'm with the board and I need your login so I can do something you need not concern yourself with" I'd report it immediately.

As Trump is finding out, when you are trying to do corrupt things you'd better have all asses on board or else the people who don't agree with corruption are going to do stuff like write it down, blow whistles, talk to lawyers, testify to Congress, stuff like that.

But the supposed narrative is that Hunter Biden took about a million bucks (which is pocket change to people who are already rich) and Burisma just shrugged and said "oh well, he's the US Vice President's son, nothing we can do about it"? And to put a cherry on top they waited for Rudy fucking Guiliani to come to their rescue? If you believe that I've got a bridge over the Donets river you'll be intersted in.

Also, if an investigation automatically equals guilt sufficient to keep one from office, remind me again how many investigations are currently going on right now into Donald J. Trump?
  #6011  
Old 12-08-2019, 10:41 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
Strangely, but I think more telling was this story:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...tary-dog-conan

And a picture of the dog's undercarriage:

https://images.app.goo.gl/6NeCT8Met6U3q3FY7

That's really some, "The Great Leader does not poo.", sort of nonsense and people are being promoted and fired in our government and military based on their willingness to go along with denials of blatant reality. Whether the dog has a dick is not subjective.
On a second check, it looks like Conan's belly skin was folded over in this photo, by his harness, obscuring the matter and that I was in fact wrong. There's a better photo where it's clear that he got schwang.

So, change this commentary to the Sharpie fiasco.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 12-08-2019 at 10:41 PM.
  #6012  
Old 12-09-2019, 09:01 AM
elucidator is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Further
Posts: 60,343
One can only be pleased and grateful to have new and exciting sources of information! Kudos then to sfriver for bringing to light sources I had not even heard of, never mind their status as firmly reliable and worthy of sober attention.

I note with interest the California Political Review, linked above, for the insight offered.

Sen. Mitt Romney Former Aide on Board of Ukrainian Firm That Bought Off Biden

Quote:
Now we know why Sen. Romney is upset about Trump trying to get to the bottom of the Ukrainian/Biden scandal. The legacy media is hiding a VERY significant fact. A former aide to Romney is on the Board of the Ukrainian energy company that bought off Hunter Biden. That is why VP Joe Biden demanded the end to the investigation into his son—it would also drag in Mitt Romney!...
Sen. Romney? Your bus is here.....
__________________
Law above fear, justice above law, mercy above justice, love above all.
  #6013  
Old 12-09-2019, 09:20 AM
What the .... ?!?! is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 4,266
re WH/Trump attorneys won't participate today.... what were the details of the invitation? Is it reasonable for them to argue that the Committee put too many restrictions on them?
  #6014  
Old 12-09-2019, 09:29 AM
Gyrate is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Greater Croydonia
Posts: 24,248
Quote:
Originally Posted by elucidator View Post
One can only be pleased and grateful to have new and exciting sources of information! Kudos then to sfriver for bringing to light sources I had not even heard of, never mind their status as firmly reliable and worthy of sober attention.

I note with interest the California Political Review, linked above, for the insight offered.

Sen. Mitt Romney Former Aide on Board of Ukrainian Firm That Bought Off Biden

Sen. Romney? Your bus is here.....
Sounds like it's the short bus, based on that line of reasoning. That there is some Pizzagate-level nonsense.
  #6015  
Old 12-09-2019, 10:04 AM
steronz is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Oh-hiya-Maude
Posts: 5,282
Quote:
Originally Posted by What the .... ?!?! View Post
re WH/Trump attorneys won't participate today.... what were the details of the invitation? Is it reasonable for them to argue that the Committee put too many restrictions on them?
You're asking the wrong question. Here's the entire text of the letter the WH counsel sent to Chairman Nadler:

Quote:
As you know, your impeachment inquiry is completely baseless and has violated basic principles of due process and fundamental fairness. Nevertheless, the Speaker of the House yesterday ordered House Democrats to proceed with articles of impeachment before your Committee has heard a single shred of evidence.

House Democrats have wasted enough of America's time with this charade. You should end this inquiry now and not waste even more time with additional hearings. Adopting articles of impeachment would be a reckless abuse of power by House Democrats, and would constitute the most unjust, highly partisan, and unconstitutional attempt at impeachment in our Nation's history. Whatever course you choose, as the President has recently stated: "if you are going to impeach me, do it now, fast, so we can have a fair trial in the Senate, and so that our Country can get back to business."
They're not citing any specific rules that they feel are unfair, -- they're not citing anything at all. It's just a whiny rant.
  #6016  
Old 12-09-2019, 10:33 AM
GIGObuster's Avatar
GIGObuster is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Arizona
Posts: 29,428
The Republican party's theme song for this hearing:

Groucho Marx - I'm Against It
  #6017  
Old 12-09-2019, 10:52 AM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,416
Quote:
Originally Posted by steronz View Post
You're asking the wrong question. Here's the entire text of the letter the WH counsel sent to Chairman Nadler:



They're not citing any specific rules that they feel are unfair, -- they're not citing anything at all. It's just a whiny rant.
And yet...it worked.
  #6018  
Old 12-09-2019, 10:54 AM
JKellyMap's Avatar
JKellyMap is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 9,965
Quote:
Originally Posted by elucidator View Post
One can only be pleased and grateful to have new and exciting sources of information! Kudos then to sfriver for bringing to light sources I had not even heard of, never mind their status as firmly reliable and worthy of sober attention.

I note with interest the California Political Review, linked above, for the insight offered.

Sen. Mitt Romney Former Aide on Board of Ukrainian Firm That Bought Off Biden



Sen. Romney? Your bus is here.....
Wow. And I heard that Bernie Sanders’ cousin once ate a plate of chicken Kiev. Lock Bernie up!
  #6019  
Old 12-09-2019, 11:02 AM
Kent Clark's Avatar
Kent Clark is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Posts: 27,354
Quote:
Originally Posted by steronz View Post
You're asking the wrong question. Here's the entire text of the letter the WH counsel sent to Chairman Nadler:



They're not citing any specific rules that they feel are unfair, -- they're not citing anything at all. It's just a whiny rant.
Woody Allen had something to say about political trials all the way back in 1971.
  #6020  
Old 12-09-2019, 11:04 AM
elucidator is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Further
Posts: 60,343
How crazy is our world? I might be forced to recognize Romney and Bolton for making positive contributions to the Republic. What a world, what a whirled....
  #6021  
Old 12-09-2019, 11:12 AM
RTFirefly is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Maryland
Posts: 40,281
Quote:
Originally Posted by GIGObuster View Post
The Republican party's theme song for this hearing:

Groucho Marx - I'm Against It
And of course, the song that Trump should have sung at his inauguration:

If you think this country's bad off now,
just wait 'til I get through with it!
  #6022  
Old 12-09-2019, 11:14 AM
RTFirefly is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Maryland
Posts: 40,281
Amazon gets to the point in its suit against the Trump administration:
Quote:
The question is whether the President of the United States should be allowed to use the budget of DoD to pursue his own personal and political ends.
When you've lost Amazon...
  #6023  
Old 12-09-2019, 01:31 PM
Defensive Indifference is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 7,425
Christopher Steele says any notion that he was biased against Trump is ludicrous. He says he was "favorably disposed" toward the Trump family before beginning his research, that he had met a member of the family [name redacted] in Trump Tower, considered that person a friend for some years, and gave them at least one gift, a family tartan from Scotland.

https://twitter.com/juliamacfarlane/...99402538860545

Odd that this family member never mentioned that. Anyway, I don't know the dates of this friendship or who lived in Trump Tower when, but that's not going to stop me from irresponsible speculation. I'm guessing the friend is Tiffany. Just because I don't know much about her, and I can't imagine an intelligent person like Steele being friends with anyone else in that family of nitwits.
  #6024  
Old 12-09-2019, 01:34 PM
Defensive Indifference is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 7,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defensive Indifference View Post
Christopher Steele says any notion that he was biased against Trump is ludicrous. He says he was "favorably disposed" toward the Trump family before beginning his research, that he had met a member of the family [name redacted] in Trump Tower, considered that person a friend for some years, and gave them at least one gift, a family tartan from Scotland.

https://twitter.com/juliamacfarlane/...99402538860545

Odd that this family member never mentioned that. Anyway, I don't know the dates of this friendship or who lived in Trump Tower when, but that's not going to stop me from irresponsible speculation. I'm guessing the friend is Tiffany. Just because I don't know much about her, and I can't imagine an intelligent person like Steele being friends with anyone else in that family of nitwits.
...And ABC has just confirmed it's Ivanka. https://twitter.com/juliamacfarlane/...03826485239809

My record of being wrong about absolutely everything in politics remains unbroken!
  #6025  
Old 12-09-2019, 02:14 PM
Ravenman is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 27,440
You know, I used to think Jay Sekulow and Rudy were bad lawyers.

These House Republican counsels -- Sleepy Eyes Stephen Castor and Ashley Hurt Callen, who just wants to speak to your manager -- have changed my mind. Those two make Rudy and the Blue Haired Lawyer from the Simpsons look like Clarence Darrow.
  #6026  
Old 12-09-2019, 02:46 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defensive Indifference View Post
...And ABC has just confirmed it's Ivanka. https://twitter.com/juliamacfarlane/...03826485239809

My record of being wrong about absolutely everything in politics remains unbroken!
One might note that Steele was a professional at Russian information collection and, likely, targeted the building out of his social network towards individuals likely to know intriguing things about the inner workings of Russia.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 12-09-2019 at 02:47 PM.
  #6027  
Old 12-09-2019, 03:18 PM
DrFidelius's Avatar
DrFidelius is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Miskatonic University
Posts: 12,593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
You know, I used to think Jay Sekulow and Rudy were bad lawyers.



These House Republican counsels -- Sleepy Eyes Stephen Castor and Ashley Hurt Callen, who just wants to speak to your manager -- have changed my mind. Those two make Rudy and the Blue Haired Lawyer from the Simpsons look like Clarence Darrow.
Castor?
Was he the one doing the Foghorn Leghorn impression on NPR this afternoon?
__________________
The opinions expressed here are my own, and do not represent any other persons, organizations, spirits, thinking machines, hive minds or other sentient beings on this world or any adjacent dimensions in the multiverse.
  #6028  
Old 12-09-2019, 03:41 PM
bobot's Avatar
bobot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 9,540
That was probably Doug Collins, not the former Bulls coach, but the outraged, OUTRAGED I tell ya gentleman from Georgia.
  #6029  
Old 12-09-2019, 04:21 PM
Boycott is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 364
So tired of hearing about "unelected bureaucrats" from these unhinged republicans.

Who elected Ivanka Trump to pally around at the G20?

Who elected Jared Kushner to negotiate a Middle East peace treaty?

Who elected Rudy Giuliani to meddle in the Ukraine?
  #6030  
Old 12-09-2019, 05:29 PM
Bijou Drains is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 10,186
someone on TV said we don't know how this impeachment will end. Made me laugh. I guess there is a chance the world will end before the trial ends.
  #6031  
Old 12-09-2019, 07:29 PM
kaylasdad99 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Anaheim, CA
Posts: 32,625
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspenglow View Post
Sure thing, comrade.

Your first link is from Interfax. From Wikipedia:



Your second link, Investment Watch Blog, appears to be nothing but click bait.

Your third link, California Political News, operated by Stephen Frank, who hopes to be California's Republican party chair, caused my virus protection to warn me off it.

Real great news sources you got. I presented you with facts. You responded with garbage.
Thanks for taking the bullet for us, Aspenglow.
  #6032  
Old 12-09-2019, 11:16 PM
Moriarty's Avatar
Moriarty is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Denver, CO, USA
Posts: 3,118
The talking heads are reporting that two articles of impeachment are coming tomorrow morning: abuse of power and obstruction of congress.

But I have a horrible thought: what’s to stop the Republicans in the Senate from turning this thing on its head? Imagine that they insist on issuing subpoenas to Joe and Hunter Biden, ostensibly based on the theory that Trump had legitimate concerns. If Biden balks about testifying, it gives cover to Trump’s refusal to allow pertinent witnesses to participate. And if the Bidens testify, it just confuses the issues and gives fodder to those determined to argue that Trump had some sort of justification.

It’s clear that Trump’s supporters in congress have no interest in the reality of what Trump is doing. I worry what they will do with the power to run the trial in the Senate.
  #6033  
Old 12-09-2019, 11:40 PM
simster is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 11,461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriarty View Post
The talking heads are reporting that two articles of impeachment are coming tomorrow morning: abuse of power and obstruction of congress.

But I have a horrible thought: what’s to stop the Republicans in the Senate from turning this thing on its head? Imagine that they insist on issuing subpoenas to Joe and Hunter Biden, ostensibly based on the theory that Trump had legitimate concerns. If Biden balks about testifying, it gives cover to Trump’s refusal to allow pertinent witnesses to participate. And if the Bidens testify, it just confuses the issues and gives fodder to those determined to argue that Trump had some sort of justification.

It’s clear that Trump’s supporters in congress have no interest in the reality of what Trump is doing. I worry what they will do with the power to run the trial in the Senate.
If/When it hits the Senate - the senators are nothing but the Jury. I assume the House side will get to call witnesses to present the articles of impeachment.

On the House side - the republicans have attempted to call the Bidens and several others as 'witnesses', but that has been struck down each time by the Majority.

Other than to distract - exactly _what_ difference does it make for the Biden's to be there? they are not fact witnesses to Trump's actions. Even if they are the most evil people in the world and made trillions off of Ukraine and China - its irrelevant to Trump's actions - Trump had legitimate ways to start investigations and then call on Ukraine to help - but he didn;t do any of those things.

This impeachment is about Trump's actions - and even if somehow he had "legitimate" concerns - he went about them in an impeachable manner - nothing can excuse that.
  #6034  
Old 12-09-2019, 11:48 PM
Moriarty's Avatar
Moriarty is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Denver, CO, USA
Posts: 3,118
Quote:
Originally Posted by simster View Post
If/When it hits the Senate - the senators are nothing but the Jury. I assume the House side will get to call witnesses to present the articles of impeachment.

On the House side - the republicans have attempted to call the Bidens and several others as 'witnesses', but that has been struck down each time by the Majority.
A google search tells me that the senate votes on the procedures for trial.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill...nt-rules%3famp

Everybody I hear talking about it presumes some sort of bipartisan consensus, but I have no hope for such things in this day and age. Why wouldn’t the Republicans turn this into a shit show that ends up down some conspiratorial rabbit hole?

Quote:
Other than to distract - exactly _what_ difference does it make for the Biden's to be there? they are not fact witnesses to Trump's actions. Even if they are the most evil people in the world and made trillions off of Ukraine and China - its irrelevant to Trump's actions - Trump had legitimate ways to start investigations and then call on Ukraine to help - but he didn;t do any of those things.

This impeachment is about Trump's actions - and even if somehow he had "legitimate" concerns - he went about them in an impeachable manner - nothing can excuse that.
You are absolutely correct, of course. But “to distract” seems to be the point of the entire Republican response to date. They are hardly interested in uncovering the scope of Russian control over our government.
  #6035  
Old 12-10-2019, 10:18 AM
ThelmaLou's Avatar
ThelmaLou is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Neither here nor there
Posts: 17,088
Quote:
Originally Posted by simster View Post
...Other than to distract - exactly _what_ difference does it make for the Biden's to be there? ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriarty View Post
...You are absolutely correct, of course. But “to distract” seems to be the point of the entire Republican response to date. They are hardly interested in uncovering the scope of Russian control over our government.
This.

AISI the Pubbie mission is to shut it down. Any way they can.
  #6036  
Old 12-10-2019, 10:50 AM
Aspenglow's Avatar
Aspenglow is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 4,493
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaylasdad99 View Post
Thanks for taking the bullet for us, Aspenglow.
LOL, you're sweet and thanks, but it was more of a water gun, I think.

And I think Moriarty gave a better refutation.

___

The new Trump Republican impeachment talking point must be "weak." I've heard/read that term about a dozen times already this morning since the Dems announced what the articles would be.

Messaging, messaging, messaging.

You know what's really weak? Anyone on the Trump team, whether Barr, Durham, the Ukrainians or the Russians, announcing there is "an investigation" -- ongoing or otherwise.
  #6037  
Old 12-10-2019, 11:57 AM
Johnny L.A. is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: NoWA
Posts: 62,141
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThelmaLou View Post
AISI the Pubbie mission is to shut it down. Any way they can.
Impeachment is a process. It might take ten or fifteen flushes to oust The Messiah.
  #6038  
Old 12-10-2019, 12:32 PM
QuickSilver is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 19,947
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny L.A. View Post
Impeachment is a process. It might take ten or fifteen flushes to oust The Messiah.
He's not the Messiah. He's just a very naughty fucking moron.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #6039  
Old 12-10-2019, 12:59 PM
drad dog is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 6,503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspenglow View Post
LOL, you're sweet and thanks, but it was more of a water gun, I think.

And I think Moriarty gave a better refutation.

___

The new Trump Republican impeachment talking point must be "weak." I've heard/read that term about a dozen times already this morning since the Dems announced what the articles would be.

Messaging, messaging, messaging.

You know what's really weak? Anyone on the Trump team, whether Barr, Durham, the Ukrainians or the Russians, announcing there is "an investigation" -- ongoing or otherwise.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=886595
  #6040  
Old 12-10-2019, 03:45 PM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm is online now
Champion Chili Chef
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 63,472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny L.A. View Post
Impeachment is a process. It might take ten or fifteen flushes to oust The Messiah.
Or, as he is known in The White House, The Mess.
  #6041  
Old 12-10-2019, 04:52 PM
Akaj's Avatar
Akaj is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: In the vanishing middle
Posts: 907
Here's something I haven't heard before regarding the Senate testimony of WH insiders resisting subpeonas:
"Chief Justice John Roberts could rule on the scope of executive privilege with respect to these high-ranking administration officials as well as any diplomats, national security staff or budget office staff barred up until now by the White House from providing evidence. Under the Senate rules, the chief justice’s decision would be final, subject only to a vote of the full Senate."
https://www.chicagotribune.com/opini...7ci-story.html

Is this likely? Will it make the Dems' case stronger, even if Trump's minions all show up and plead the 5th like two-bit mobsters?
__________________
I'm not expecting any surprises.
  #6042  
Old 12-10-2019, 05:01 PM
jsc1953 is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Bay Area, California
Posts: 10,835
I also am confused as to how the Senate trial will work. Will questions of relevance be decided like in a criminal trial -- attorneys say "Objection! Relevance!" and the presiding judge (CJOTUS Roberts) makes a ruling?
Or are these questions determined in advance by "rules of the Senate" (ie, McConnell) Which is like: "rules? in a knife fight?"
  #6043  
Old 12-10-2019, 05:09 PM
Aspenglow's Avatar
Aspenglow is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 4,493
I don't think any of us knows how this is going to play out in the Senate trial. In the two previous impeachment proceedings within my memory, the Democrats and Republicans agreed in a bipartisan manner over the rules that would control the hearings. That won't happen this time.
  #6044  
Old 12-10-2019, 05:10 PM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm is online now
Champion Chili Chef
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 63,472
My prediction is that the Republicans won't call any witnesses.
  #6045  
Old 12-10-2019, 05:25 PM
Akaj's Avatar
Akaj is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: In the vanishing middle
Posts: 907
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
My prediction is that the Republicans won't call any witnesses.
But can't the Dems call them? I'd love to hear Roberts compel those chickenshits to appear.
__________________
I'm not expecting any surprises.
  #6046  
Old 12-10-2019, 05:39 PM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm is online now
Champion Chili Chef
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 63,472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akaj View Post
But can't the Dems call them? I'd love to hear Roberts compel those chickenshits to appear.
The Republicans have no interest in actually participating.
They are not even pretending to be impartial, and they just want to get this over with, Constitution and Country be damned.
  #6047  
Old 12-10-2019, 05:56 PM
Akaj's Avatar
Akaj is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: In the vanishing middle
Posts: 907
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
The Republicans have no interest in actually participating.
They are not even pretending to be impartial, and they just want to get this over with, Constitution and Country be damned.
Yes, but I'm talking about the Dems calling witnesses, and Roberts compelling them to appear.
__________________
I'm not expecting any surprises.

Last edited by Akaj; 12-10-2019 at 05:57 PM.
  #6048  
Old 12-10-2019, 05:58 PM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm is online now
Champion Chili Chef
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 63,472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akaj View Post
Yes, but I'm talking about the Dems calling witnesses, and Roberts compelling them to appear.
No cross-examination, no paying attention to what is going on.
  #6049  
Old 12-10-2019, 06:12 PM
Akaj's Avatar
Akaj is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: In the vanishing middle
Posts: 907
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
No cross-examination, no paying attention to what is going on.
I don't care what they do or don't do, unless they start coughing "Blowjob!" I want to see the WH insiders fighting these subpeonas be compelled to answer questions under oath -- if only to torpedo the ridiculous claim that "we haven't heard from both sides."
__________________
I'm not expecting any surprises.
  #6050  
Old 12-10-2019, 06:21 PM
nelliebly is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Washington
Posts: 2,357
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
The Republicans have no interest in actually participating.
They are not even pretending to be impartial, and they just want to get this over with, Constitution and Country be damned.
Well, that's what McConnell wants. Trump has other ideas:

Quote:
But the show is exactly what Trump wants. He's made clear to advisers privately that rather than end the trial as quickly as possible, he is hoping for a dramatic event, according to two people familiar with his thinking. He wants Hunter Biden, Rep. Adam Schiff and the whistleblower to testify. He wants the witnesses to be live, not clips of taped depositions. And he's hoping to turn it into a spectacle, which he thinks is his best chance to hurt Democrats in the election.

People close to the President say this is because he has been sitting back and watching as current and former aides testified for hours before lawmakers about his behavior that they described as inappropriate, problematic and potentially dangerous.
McConnell, of course, calls the shots here, but I can't help wondering what Trump will due if his pent-up rage is not allowed expression in the circus he envisions. A series of impotently angry tweets? This is not a man who shrugs off this sort of thing.

For the sake of the country, one would hope he'd implode.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:33 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017