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  #101  
Old 03-25-2020, 04:59 PM
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10 hours a night is completely normal (required) for a teen.

To regulate the hours your teen sleeps, you need to regulate the temperature, light, and exercise. People sleep when it is cold, and start to wake up when it starts to get warm. They regulate their activity by how bright it is. And your body rhythms, independent of temperature and light, sync to your physical activity. Wake-Activity-Rhythm then gives you Wake-Activity-Rhythm.

Merely saying things to your teen just make you an asshole. If you want your teen to be a member of the family, matching your family rhythms, then you are going to have to regulate the room temperature, light and early morning sport/exercise/lawn-mowing to their needs. Just doing one without the others also makes you an asshole: when your teen gets up, there has to be physical activity. Making them do physical activity in the bright light when they aren't awake also sucks. If you want something, you have to get all three lined up.
  #102  
Old 03-25-2020, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by bengangmo View Post
I don't get all this resistance to being up in the morning
Resistance? What resistance? Nobody's saying being a morning person is a bad thing. Like you,
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Originally Posted by bengangmo View Post
I've always been a morning person
, a phrase that's literally become my theme song ever since the Firebug's school performed the musical version of Shrek.

But unlike you, I don't expect the rest of the world to conform with my love of the early hours.

Now that school's out for the time being, the Firebug's been sleeping 'til noon, and I really have no problem with that. Why should I? He doesn't need to be up earlier.
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Is it really so unreasonable to expect that she's up sometime around 9am?
It is unreasonable, in the quite literal sense that you have no reason for your expectation.
Quote:
As to why - because it's daytime, isn't that reason enough?
Can't see why.

Last edited by RTFirefly; 03-25-2020 at 05:10 PM.
  #103  
Old 03-25-2020, 05:44 PM
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Of course I was brought into this thread.
Because in some of these commenters’ opinions, drugs equals an erratic sleep schedule. ��
FWIW, I wouldn’t worry about kids sleeping in....
  #104  
Old 03-25-2020, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by kanicbird View Post
From the OP:
Yes, and I wondered how the OP knew that curtains were closed and a person was asleep in a room that had the door closed.
  #105  
Old 03-25-2020, 07:45 PM
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Next up - it affects her mother, having one of the rooms closed
It affects me - during the sunshine hours having someone asleep in a darkened room affects how I feel.
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Originally Posted by Ruken View Post
Sounds like the kid is fine, but mom and dad should talk to a doc about their own issues.
This.

Also:
Quote:
Unless there is a very good reason (nightshift or sickness) I very much associate this sort of sleep pattern with unproductive habits as well as slovenliness - it's not something that I will allow to be propagated.
So you're going to be intolerant of your daughter's behavior on the basis of irrational prejudices.

You're supposed to value your child more than you value your irrational prejudices, not the other way around.

Last edited by RTFirefly; 03-25-2020 at 07:45 PM.
  #106  
Old 03-25-2020, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by bengangmo View Post
weelllll....
I did tell her WHO to buy from, and gave her his number if she wants to buy...
I don't smoke myself, and don't want her smoking, but if she does, I want her to buy from someone that I trust to be supplying her with the right stuff (this guy also deals other things)
Ok did anyone else miss this post doesn't seem to jibe with the attitude of the rest of the OP unless I got whooshed.
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  #107  
Old 03-25-2020, 08:09 PM
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Ok did anyone else miss this post doesn't seem to jibe with the attitude of the rest of the OP unless I got whooshed.
I saw that. I just figured the OP wanted his daughter to be up early so she can get with an approved illegal drug seller.
  #108  
Old 03-25-2020, 08:30 PM
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its to be with the rest of the family, to help with the housework when the housework is being done,
In addition to everything about varying natural sleep cycles, this:

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Originally Posted by OleOneEye View Post
During normal times, people don't spend every waking minute together, like they're being forced to do now. Maybe a different sleep schedule is her only reprieve!
You've got the whole family cooped up in the house together. That's not a normal situation. Insisting that everyone be awake at the same time specifically so everyone can be together every minute might well be a really, really bad idea.

Your basic family relationships may be healthy and everybody may like each other fine, but if people who need some space aren't allowed to get it, that may cease to be true very quickly.

And I still haven't seen any explanation either of why the housework has to be done specifically in the middle of the day, or how it gets done at those hours in normal times when she's at school.
  #109  
Old 03-26-2020, 12:45 AM
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I understand the OP. I have a 16 year old. My thought is that it is my idea to teach a child the "right" way to do things. Early to bed, early to rise. Eat healthy meals, no snacking between meals, and limit food intake at night. Get exercise and shower and dress every day (no sitting around in PJs even if it is a day off).

When she gets older at least she will have learned the basics from me. When she becomes an adult if she wants to party all night and sleep all day and can still keep a job, then that is her life to live. My job now is to instill good habits in her that she can fall back on later in life if she chooses.
  #110  
Old 03-26-2020, 01:20 AM
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Interesting dilemma. On one hand I can understand trying to instill a “proper” lifestyle routine, and on the other, the importance of letting teenagers be independent and have them understand consequences on their own terms.

Personally, I wouldn’t set some arbitrary time they have to wake up. I would discuss with them what is expected of them in terms of being a contributing member to the household and come to an agreement (with their input) as to when their chores need to be completed by. After that, let them manage their own schedule and if they can’t stick to the agreement, address that specific issue with appropriate punishment and let them figure out what they need to do.

I wouldn’t want my kid sleeping in until close to noon every day either, but as long as they respect the rules of the household and understand everyone makes sacrifices and compromises to keep harmony, micromanaging when they go to sleep and when they wake up is not the best usage of currency as a parent, IMHO.
  #111  
Old 03-26-2020, 01:18 PM
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I've heard of studies done showing that in teen years kids' sleep schedules naturally shift later and some have proposed making high school start later. But since this is in IMHO I'll give you my opinion:

I think it's fine. I was a night-owl teen who ended up becoming a productive member of society. My early-rising parents did not help me by trying to force me to get up earlier but it did make our relationship worse at the time.

Last edited by Dark Sponge; 03-26-2020 at 01:19 PM.
  #112  
Old 03-26-2020, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
(no sitting around in PJs even if it is a day off).
What? LOL. That's kind of been our lifestyle here, adults & kids and all, the past week. The best days are days when I don't have to get into pants or change!

Last edited by pulykamell; 03-26-2020 at 01:24 PM.
  #113  
Old 03-26-2020, 01:40 PM
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Several posts and it's pretty clear the OP isn't really looking for answers. The OP is looking for validation, not answers, and the thread is not providing it.

The board is pretty good at providing opinions and answers but not always great at validation, especially when that validation doesn't line up firmly behind facts and research.
  #114  
Old 03-26-2020, 02:09 PM
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Several posts and it's pretty clear the OP isn't really looking for answers. The OP is looking for validation, not answers, and the thread is not providing it.

The board is pretty good at providing opinions and answers but not always great at validation, especially when that validation doesn't line up firmly behind facts and research.
While I think the "waking up early" stuff is a bunch of bullshit...who the eff cares ... and I said so in my first post, I do think the OP has a valid gripe with chores not being done. I'd be pissed about that. Fine. Sleep in until the afternoon for all I care. But get those chores done. That I would be annoyed at.
  #115  
Old 03-26-2020, 02:14 PM
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said so in my first post, I do think the OP has a valid gripe with chores not being done.
Sure, then the complaint should be about the chores, not the sleep schedule.

The chores are a valid issue but their use in this thread is to get posters onboard with the OPs complaints about the sleep schedule, not as a separate issue to also be resolved. The thread title isn't "The Chores aren't getting done, Sleep Schedule to Blame?", after all.

Like I said, validation, not opinion/answers.
  #116  
Old 03-26-2020, 02:29 PM
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I dunno, I can imagine it's annoying to have one member of the household missing from morning activities. It's good for families to eat together, for instance. That doesn't just mean dinner.

But it's true, too, that teens are wired to go to bed late and get up late.

My suggestion would be to sit the teen down and say "Look, chores aren't getting done, and we miss seeing you in the mornings when we all get ready and plan the day. And if you sleep too late, it disrupts everyone else's schedule. How can we resolve this while still making sure you get enough sleep?"


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  #117  
Old 03-26-2020, 03:37 PM
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You gotta pick your battles with teenagers. If this is the one you want to pick, it’s the one you pick. You’ll lose it, but that will be a good learning experience for both of you.
The smart thing to do is to establish “quiet hours” in the house. 10pm-8am? And chores are done before quiet hours. Undone chores have consequences. Make that battle about the chores and the consequences. Don’t let it be a back-door to the wake-up time battle, because you will, again, lose that one. Very simple: this is what you will get done. How and when, other than the quiet hours, is up to you. This is what happens if you don’t get it done. “But I was too tired”. “We had that conversation, not having it again. You are old and smart enough to figure it out”.
  #118  
Old 03-26-2020, 03:57 PM
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I understand the OP. I have a 16 year old. My thought is that it is my idea to teach a child the "right" way to do things. Early to bed, early to rise. Eat healthy meals, no snacking between meals, and limit food intake at night. Get exercise and shower and dress every day (no sitting around in PJs even if it is a day off).

When she gets older at least she will have learned the basics from me. When she becomes an adult if she wants to party all night and sleep all day and can still keep a job, then that is her life to live. My job now is to instill good habits in her that she can fall back on later in life if she chooses.
Problem is, some of those “right ways” are backed by data, some not. So yes, encouraging healthy eating habits and hygiene is a good plan, but for teens, going to bed early and getting up early as “right” is actually contradicted by science on the teen age circadian rhythm, and what to wear on a day off does not have a clear right vs wrong.

Your house, your rules, but don’t imagine there is some list of right behaviors and wrong behaviors that is absolute.
  #119  
Old 03-26-2020, 04:11 PM
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I thought of this thread when I saw my highly accomplished colleague, a driven professional, post on Facebook how grateful she was that her growing teen could finally get all the sleep they wanted.

Not everyone feels the same as the OP.
  #120  
Old 03-26-2020, 11:24 PM
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Is she on any kind of medication that might mess up her sleeping patterns?

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To me 11:15 would be unreasonable, and I would consider removing her curtains from her room and explain how her actions affect others.
Don't you think that's a little extreme? Would YOU want to get dressed with the curtains wide open?
  #121  
Old 03-26-2020, 11:27 PM
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Sure, then the complaint should be about the chores, not the sleep schedule.
Preaching to the choir here. 100% agree.
  #122  
Old 03-27-2020, 01:07 AM
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It is now 11:15 am, and she is refusing to get out of bed,
This is meaningless without context.

*What time did she go to bed? I.e. how many hours of sleep. If more than 10 hours or so, you have a valid complaint. If not, you are the problem.

*is there any reason for her to get out of bed, other than to satisfy your sensibilities? Does she need to go to school, work, are there assigned chores that are undone etc? it there are, she is the problem.
If not, you are the problem.
  #123  
Old 03-27-2020, 02:37 AM
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well 7:45 PM....piano not practised and she's in bed keeping warm with computer.
told you all had reamed me over being mean....but that she was not keeping up her end of bargain.
so a got a sullen piano practise.
  #124  
Old 03-27-2020, 02:41 AM
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and by the way...no medication and we have not curtains.
  #125  
Old 03-27-2020, 05:11 AM
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This is the real crux of the issue -
I don't think that being on social media all night and then sleeping all day on a regular / ongoing basis is a healthy lifestyle.
If you want the social media cut off after a certain point then take away her phone. Or take her computer out of her room. You're the parent, you can impose rules.

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Originally Posted by bengangmo View Post
I see it as part of being a parent to teach healthy habits,
Nothing I've ever seen allows me to associate this pattern of behaviour as being healthy.
I am inherently a night owl. Left to myself I go to bed around 2 am or so and sleep until 10 or 11 am. On the other hand, my current job often demands I WAKE UP at 2 am to get to work on time, which I do. Maintaining that schedule requires enormous self-discipline and is never really comfortable for me. It is contributing to sleep disturbances which over the past few years has sometimes required medication.

The point being that what she is doing now MIGHT, in fact, be her normal.

Now, being the parent you can force her to keep a "morning lark" schedule but that doesn't mean she's going to "learn" to like something that is at odds with her natural rhythms. If it short changes her sleep then in fact your efforts could be unhealthy for her. But I'm not there so I can't tell what is your personal bias and what is her being a rebellious teenager.

Because yes, some of this could be teen rebellion. Which is annoying but normal for teens, and if sleeping all day is the way she is rebelling, well, things could be a lot worse.

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Originally Posted by bengangmo View Post
this young lady is a "star" - she's very consistently at the top of her year group in the biggest school in our region. In her last standardised test she was in the top 10% of the country. Getting her schoolwork done is not the metric I want to see her measured by.
I have real issues with "coasting",
I have real issues with things becoming habit that are not things we want to cultivate. And one of these is living the lifestyle of people that I don't want to emulate
Geez, this reminds me of arguments my husband used to have with his mother.

He was another one of the night owls.

Given a choice, he'd always choose the night shift. When he worked freelance from home he would start work around 8 pm work until 4 or 5 am. He'd go to bed around 7 am. He'd sleep until 3 pm. That was his normal. He was very productive, gaining two patents and several copyrighted works over his lifetime. When he worked as a performer being a night owl was an asset.

Yet his mother considered him lazy because she'd call at 10 am and couldn't figure out why he was always asleep. He was asleep because he didn't get to bed until 7 am because he was working until 5 am.

When a job required that he get up early he did so - at one point he was getting up at 3 am to go to a job to keep a roof over both our heads.

My point being that his inclination to stay up until dawn was NOT a sign of laziness or debauchery, it was what felt best. But he could change his schedule when needed, just as when a morning lark is stuck working 2nd shift or even overnights.

So... when school is in session and life is normal does she properly get up, get ready, and get to school on time? If the answer is yes then stop worrying.

Right now nothing is normal. She might be having trouble getting to sleep - I sure as hell do these days. If that is the case then help her without berating her. Put a curfew on social media/screen time. If she wants to sit up after that time she can read a treebook or knit or whatever. Cut back on caffeine if that's part of the issue. If the problem is that she's depressed or anxious because of what's going on...well, it's a strain on all of us. If her staying up and sleeping in late is a means of coping it's not the worst means of doing so.

Tell her that if she's going to live in a different time zone as the rest of the house inform her that the ONLY concession to that will be allowing her to keep her door closed - the rest of the household is under no obligation to tip-toe around. Back in my teen years that would not be an obstacle to my sleeping - heck, I was known for falling asleep during bagpipe band practices (damn, I miss being able to sleep like that!). If she needs the sleep she'll sleep. If she's unhappy - well, the rest of the household is not required to accommodate her living out of synch.

Assuming you're as cooped up as the rest of the planet right now, is this really the hill you want to have a battle on?

Do her chores have to be done early, or is that YOUR habit? Are there things to do at night that she can be given? If she's not cooking/cleaning up for breakfast can she be assigned to clean up after dinner? You can impose the condition that if she wants her own private time zone then she is required to contribute an adult portion of household maintenance.

Yeah, make that the deal - choosing your own schedule is an adult thing. If she wants that privilege then she must also assume adult responsibility - dinner clean up, or doing the laundry for everyone, or something that significantly contributes to the household that relieves you of labor in return for her making that choice. You are correct - being a night owl is no excuse for laziness or evasion of responsibility, so if she wants that time zone she has to demonstrate she is NOT those things. If she's contributing to the household, getting her homework done, and otherwise demonstrating energy and responsibility despite living in a different time zone would that alleviate your worry?

If you've been a morning lark all your life and was raised that rising early was a virtue I can understand your struggle with that. However, there are a LOT of us living the night shift who are productive, wholesome adults. It's not incompatible with being a productive and even ambitious citizen, even if it's not your personal normal.
  #126  
Old 03-27-2020, 05:19 AM
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All of the arguments (aside from being a night owl) here so far have amounted to "let her do what she wants"
No, it's "let her sleep IF her responsibilities are being fulfilled". You seem to be completely missing the second half of that.

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Nobody has suggested that a up to 11 or more hours of sleep a night is healthy, or that being on a schedule of sleeping at 2 or 3 am is healthy or desirable
How do you know she's sleeping 11 or more hours?

Just because she's in her bedroom, or in her bed, doesn't mean she's asleep.

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Originally Posted by bengangmo View Post
She's welcome to do whatever she likes with her time - go to sleep at time that suits her, I'm ok with that. She's also welcome to spend her time in the evenings doing whatever she wants.

My quid pro quo is that I expect her up in the mornings, being helpful and productive
The second part contradicts the first - unless you think forcing someone to be sleep deprived is healthy or desirable.

So, let's say... she stays up until 4 am and gets up at 7 am as you want her to do, to help out. Then mid-afternoon, exhausted, she falls asleep - are you going to come back complaining she's napping every afternoon?

What you very clearly want is for her to conform to your schedule and you keep coming up with excuses as to why what you want is preferable to all other possibilities.
  #127  
Old 03-27-2020, 05:27 AM
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b) sleeping till noon is not healthy
On what basis?

If a person doesn't fall asleep until 4 or 5 am yes, in fact sleeping til noon IS healthy.

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Originally Posted by bengangmo View Post
If I were home, I'd be getting her out of bed, I'm not home, I'm at work.
have sent a whole bunch of stuff that too much sleep is bad of health, and that having irregular sleep patterns is bad also
Except you've already said you don't know how much she actually is or isn't sleeping, and if a person is regularly up until 4 am and sleeping until noon that is in fact a regular sleep pattern. It's just not your pattern.

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I am hoping to strengthen that by tapping on the collective wisdom of the dope
Instead I'm getting "teens will be teens" (boys will be boys?)
Just accepting that teens are supposed to be rebellious and sleep till noon is not something I feel comfortable with.
No one is saying "just accept this". We are giving you a list of things to look for, conditions to impose, and questions to ask. What you are NOT getting is automatic validation that you are 100% correct in all ways.

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I've always believed that people will live up to or down to your expectations - my expectation is that people are out of bed, happy and productive during the day - not sleeping till noon like the proverbial moocher who can't hold a job
First, you can't force someone to be happy. You can force your daughter to get up at an arbitrary time, you can NOT force her to be happy about it.

Second - you have just insulted absolutely everyone who busts their ass on the night shift to keep the world working while you sleep. Thanks for the slam.
  #128  
Old 03-27-2020, 05:36 AM
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Oh gawd NO!
For most things I'm pretty relaxed
However it does bug me when, after chatting on the phone or swapping messages till 2 or 3 am (I could hear her talking on the phone at 4am the other day) I then hear complaints of being too tired to get out of bed.
THEN TAKE AWAY HER PHONE!

Holy crap - you're the adult here. One more time: it is entirely valid to impose a rule of "no on-line/phone time past X time at night). At which point she has to surrender her phone to you or the other parent who retains custody until X condition (time, completed chore, whatever) ensues.

If the phone is the problem then deal with it.

If she then starts sleeping on a schedule more compatible with your own then great. If she is STILL lying awake until 3 am then it's something else.

Would you let her wander around a mall at 2 am? Of course not. Then don't let her "wander around" on the phone or on line at 2 am.
  #129  
Old 03-27-2020, 10:28 AM
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A few years back I read an article about an anthropologist who'd spent several months living with one of the last hunter-gatherer tribes on New Guinea. He noticed, just like 'civilized' people, the teens went to sleep late and got up late while the oldsters slept early and got up early with little kids and young adults somewhere in between.

As a consequence the span where no one was awake was less than two hours. He hypothesized it was a holdover from the bad old days where a leopard might sneak up on them or something while everyone was asleep.
  #130  
Old 03-27-2020, 11:07 AM
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For a start - what am I supposed to say to the younger sister? When she wants to go to bed late and then sleep late.
Next up - it affects her mother, having one of the rooms closed
It affects me - during the sunshine hours having someone asleep in a darkened room affects how I feel.
Unless there is a very good reason (nightshift or sickness) I very much associate this sort of sleep pattern with unproductive habits as well as slovenliness - it's not something that I will allow to be propagated.
Then why are you asking for opinions, if you have no intention of considering those that don't agree with yours?
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Old 03-27-2020, 12:31 PM
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Sleeping until 11:15 am?!? What is this, amateur hour?
  #132  
Old 03-27-2020, 03:05 PM
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well 7:45 PM....piano not practised and she's in bed keeping warm with computer.
told you all had reamed me over being mean....but that she was not keeping up her end of bargain.
so a got a sullen piano practise.
You sound like a demanding parent who doesn't recognize how high achieving your child is. Your behavior is probably ripe for rebellion.

When I was a teen, my mom liked to joke that I awoke at "the crack of noon". I wasn't exactly a night owl, I just liked to sleep. And even if I went to bed at 11 or 11:30, it felt good to wake up in the morning and then roll over for another hour or so.

I still like to sleep. But these days, at 42, I'm in bed by 10 and wake by 6:30 every day - on weekends I lounge around in bed for an hour or so, and maybe relish a weekend nap when I can find the time.

So, no, this is not some lifelong affliction. This is a teenager - a hard working, probably sleep deprived one - enjoying some much earned R&R.

(I mean, as others have said, if school started up and she wasn't getting ready on time, or she was missing her part time job because she overslept, then it's a problem. Not fulfilling some arbitrary to-do list for the sake of appearing busy - sadly, an affliction at many adult jobs - is hardly worth a concern).
  #133  
Old 03-27-2020, 05:01 PM
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During the teen years the circadian rhythm significantly changes. It moves so that staying up later and getting up later is what happens. This change can be as much as two hours.
If she is having a problem going to sleep at night or can not get enough sleep, circadian rhythms can be adjusted. Melatonin is a mild hypnotic but it usually does a great job at changing circadian patterns. The most effective dose is about one third to one tenth the usual dose so it would be a good idea to break the tablets up for maximum effectiveness.
  #134  
Old 03-27-2020, 08:55 PM
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I've never slept "well", and I've always been a morning person
And some of us are night owls. From what I gather, it's just one of those things that's ingrained, and you really can't change it.

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Originally Posted by Aspidistra View Post

This is all reminding me of the continual tussles I used to have with my mother about HER particular bugbear which was - People Study Effectively When They Sit At Desks! People Cannot Study Effectively In Places Other Than Desks! (god, this is triggering me just to type this) We had a whole 'thing' for years in high school where I'd have all my books and notes out in a huge spread all over my bed, all comfy and wrapped up, and then she'd come in and make me Sit At My Desk Because That's Where You'll Do Effective Study! Of course as soon as I left home to go to Uni I was back to bedspreading, and I was perfectly successful like that, it was all just her assuming that because she did things one way, that made it the right thing to do and everyone should do it that way.
That was like my mother, who at first FORBID me to listen to music while I did my homework, or studied. I found it helped me concentrate much better, because I could tune everything else out, but she was convinced it would distract me. It took me forever to persuade her otherwise.


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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
I understand the OP. I have a 16 year old. My thought is that it is my idea to teach a child the "right" way to do things. Early to bed, early to rise. Eat healthy meals, no snacking between meals, and limit food intake at night. Get exercise and shower and dress every day (no sitting around in PJs even if it is a day off).

When she gets older at least she will have learned the basics from me. When she becomes an adult if she wants to party all night and sleep all day and can still keep a job, then that is her life to live. My job now is to instill good habits in her that she can fall back on later in life if she chooses.
Please tell me your 16 year old doesn't have a BED TIME?

Last edited by Guinastasia; 03-27-2020 at 08:56 PM.
  #135  
Old 03-27-2020, 09:58 PM
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A few years back I read an article about an anthropologist who'd spent several months living with one of the last hunter-gatherer tribes on New Guinea. He noticed, just like 'civilized' people, the teens went to sleep late and got up late while the oldsters slept early and got up early with little kids and young adults somewhere in between.

As a consequence the span where no one was awake was less than two hours. He hypothesized it was a holdover from the bad old days where a leopard might sneak up on them or something while everyone was asleep.
I've wondered for some time whether this might not be the explanation for different people having different sleep patterns. During most of human evolution it must have been an advantage to always have somebody awake -- whether to watch out for tigers or just to keep the fire going.
  #136  
Old 03-28-2020, 01:11 AM
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I dunno, I can imagine it's annoying to have one member of the household missing from morning activities. It's good for families to eat together, for instance. That doesn't just mean dinner.
? boomer here - the only meal that we all ate together was the evening meal - neither my brother nor I went to the same school, so we rarely were around at the same time other than for dinner ... I don't think our family suffered particularly much.
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Originally Posted by bengangmo View Post
we have not curtains.
SO, you have peeping toms?
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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
Second - you have just insulted absolutely everyone who busts their ass on the night shift to keep the world working while you sleep. Thanks for the slam.
Speaking as someone who worked nights doing security and keeping the world [or those who were secured by us] safe, gee, thanks for being dismissed for my 'bohemian' schedule. I am in agreement wth Broomstick - there are tons of jobs that require a second or third shift life ... my husband just left a job working a funky half second half third shift making crucial parts for the defense industry ... after spending 20 years in the military where one of the not optional scheduals was called port and starboard - 12 hour shifts, day in and day out sometimes for months at a time. WHen deployed on his boat, they had an 18 hour day - 6 hours on watch, 6 hours off watch, 6 hours 'personal time' [eat, sleep, whatever] so the 'day' and 'night' sort of precessed around the clock.
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  #137  
Old 03-28-2020, 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted by bengamo post #1
* Having curtains closed and people in bed till noon makes the house feel like a hospice - which is bad for the rest of the family.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengamo post #124
we have not curtains.
I'm confused about whether or not you have curtains in your house.
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  #138  
Old 03-28-2020, 03:54 PM
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Jesus Christ, dude. You're just not getting this. So here it is, from the top:

A 15-year old sleeping 11 hours is normal and healthy.
A 15-year old sleeping until 11 am is normal and healthy.
If that bothers you, that's your problem, not hers.

My argument is
* Sleeping till noon everyday for a fit and healthy person is unhealthy
You are wrong.
* Not having any sort of schedule or goal and just "slothing" through the day is bad for your mental health
You are wrong.
* Having curtains closed and people in bed till noon makes the house feel like a hospice - which is bad for the rest of the family.
Not her problem.

* What is a "reasonable" time to expect a teen (15) to be out of bed?
11:30 am.

* Is there any reliable study that I can cite to prove the effects of laziness and oversleeping?
No. But there are plenty saying sleeping until noon is healthy, normal, and expected. Do you care or do you just want to remain ignorant, cursing the tide? Teens go to bed no earlier than 11 pm, and they need 10 hours of sleep, so the absolute earliest she should get up is 9. Any earlier would be unhealthy. That's science. Deal with it.
  #139  
Old 03-28-2020, 04:35 PM
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There's an excellent book from 2017 called Why We Sleep. It's geared to the general public so it's an easy read.

But it's also a scary read. F*ck with a person's sleep schedule, and there will be serious repercussions. It also mentions the studies that indicate that teenagers sleeping a couple of hours later and sleeping for 9 or 10 hours is completely normal. Sleep-deprived your teen, and you could be screwing them up for life.
  #140  
Old 03-28-2020, 06:31 PM
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As far as having her door closed, I think that's just a teenager thing. I can't ever remember wanting to leave my door open when I was growing up -- I liked having my privacy. Same with my sister, and all of my friends. You just want to be alone, without anyone coming in and bothering you.

And with the exception of the cat, our family pretty much respected that concept.

So you please, knock before you come in. And by that, I don't mean knock, and then just walk in. Knock and wait for her to say, "come in."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Powers View Post
I dunno, I can imagine it's annoying to have one member of the household missing from morning activities. It's good for families to eat together, for instance. That doesn't just mean dinner.

But it's true, too, that teens are wired to go to bed late and get up late.

My suggestion would be to sit the teen down and say "Look, chores aren't getting done, and we miss seeing you in the mornings when we all get ready and plan the day. And if you sleep too late, it disrupts everyone else's schedule. How can we resolve this while still making sure you get enough sleep?"


Powers &8^]
I can't ever remember my family eating breakfast or lunch together, except on special occassions. We always just had completely different schedules. Plus nobody really wants to talk in the morning, because we're still trying to wake up. Surely you know the feeling?
  #141  
Old 03-30-2020, 12:23 AM
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My 3 children are all in their 40's and all have their own children. Our rules were quite simple. Each child had their household chores and they were to be done by a certain time. Once that was done their time was their own. If they slept late as long as chores were done in a timely fashion, my wife and I couldn't have cared less.
  #142  
Old Yesterday, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by bengangmo View Post
quick update.
I got home tonight
1. washing only went out at 2pm
2. lawns hadn't been mown.
means that everything else got pushed back (I mowed lawns and brought in washing before running as she helped with dinner)
he complained tonight of sore hamstring....which jives with too much inactivity.
Well then i'll concede this issue needs to be addressed. But you don't mow your lawn and do laundry every day do you?

What chores need to be done the other 6 days of the week? Unload the dishwasher? Vacuum or mop the floors? Clean a bathroom? None of those things take very long or require being awake at sunrise as if you were running a farm.
  #143  
Old Yesterday, 02:39 PM
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I thought of this thread when I saw this: What Time Should You Wake Up to Do Your Best Work?

The author looked at the reported wake-up times of a sample of successful individuals and found that, while many of them did wake up early, there was no one "right" time to get up in the morning.

(The subjects were successful adults, not teenagers, who, as many in this thread have noted, typically need to sleep more and later.)
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