View Poll Results: Which of these would you prefer?
Trump serves out his term and loses in 2020 to a Democrat. 61 65.59%
Trump resigns soon, but Pence wins in 2020. 32 34.41%
Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll

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  #51  
Old 09-05-2017, 07:42 PM
BigT BigT is offline
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How can I continue to tell people that supporting Trump was an evil action, and one that will send Christians to hell if they don't repent, if I then support him now? It's not like he's changed. He's still evil, and supporting evil is still evil.

Pence is wrong. Trump is evil. I can support someone who is wrong. I cannot support someone who is evil. One will send me to hell if I don't repent. The other will not.

It really is just that simple to me, and I don't get why it wasn't that simple to all these "Christians." We know there is a real, genuine Right and Wrong.
  #52  
Old 09-05-2017, 07:56 PM
Velocity Velocity is online now
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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
How can I continue to tell people that supporting Trump was an evil action, and one that will send Christians to hell if they don't repent, if I then support him now?
Not to get into a theological debate, but supporting or opposing Trump isn't what puts someone in or out of Hell.
  #53  
Old 09-05-2017, 08:20 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
How can I continue to tell people that supporting Trump was an evil action, and one that will send Christians to hell if they don't repent, if I then support him now?
This is precisely what makes this poll so intriguing.
  #54  
Old 09-06-2017, 10:10 AM
Pantastic Pantastic is online now
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
The Democrats wouldn't need a charismatic candidate to beat a Republican party that had just impeached Trump. In that situation, a lot of Trump's supporters are going to see Pence and the Republicans as the enemy, and stay home at least (if not voting for Pence's opponent out of spite). Even with a candidate like Clinton, if ten percent of Trump's voters had stayed home, she would have won in an epic landslide.
And if the Democrats go into such a situation as sure of victory as they were with Hillary Clinton, I'm absolutely positive they have the will and ability to lose the election. I mean, sure you're confident that the Democrats would win in that situation, but last year the Democrats were so confident of a Hillary victory that 538.com was lambasted for their absurd prediction that Trump had one in three odds of winning the race.

I'm also really not sure how you can consider 'if ten percent of X's voters stayed home' to be a meaningful statement; aside from really exceptional elections like Reagan's sweep, 10% of the winners voters staying home would swing the election in modern presidential elections.
  #55  
Old 09-06-2017, 11:00 AM
Khendrask Khendrask is offline
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As succinctly stated above, I'd rather have Trump for one term, than Pence for one week.
Trump is a blithering idiot, but really, he doesn't have a lot of power; he is theatrical, but none of his ideas (if indeed he has any) are going to be forced upon the people of the US. Even if he does start a war with the DPRK.

Pence however, is truly scary. Ultra ultra ultra right, religious, racist homophobic, but reasonably intelligent (at least compared to the Donald), and he has a voice that resonates with some of the most scary groups in the US.
  #56  
Old 09-06-2017, 12:33 PM
EddyTeddyFreddy EddyTeddyFreddy is offline
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Another thing with Pence is that as successor to Trump he'd be feverishly embraced by the MSM as a welcome relief and return to "normalcy", and he'd get a honeymoon period in which he could, with a pantingly eager GOP-controlled Congress, get a lot of really horrible legislation shoved through.
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  #57  
Old 09-06-2017, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by kayT View Post
A lot of people in other countries now think the whole United States is fucking nuts.
A lot of people in other countries know that enough Americans are self centered and mean enough to elect someone like Trump.
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  #58  
Old 09-06-2017, 03:16 PM
jsgoddess jsgoddess is offline
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Pence would turn the country in the wrong direction. He would make the country worse.

Trump is destroying our political and social norms. He's making the people worse.
  #59  
Old 09-06-2017, 03:37 PM
Sage Rat Sage Rat is offline
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Apparently, Trump just cut his first deal with Democrats.

I laid out the possibility, before Trump was elected, that he might become a very centrist President. To date, he hadn't shown any potential for doing that. But fundamentally, his daughter and step-son who he considers to be himself incarnate are both Democrats. Trump's idea of what health care should be like is based on Democratic ideas. To the extent that Trump is a Republican, it seems mostly be due to his not understanding that things written in newspapers can be *gasp* lies. If it says it on Breitbart, then it must be true! (There's a clip of Trump trying to defend a Breitbart article that John Oliver included in one of his videos where it's painfully obvious that Trump genuinely doesn't understand how something which is written in a news article can be false.) With John Kelly sitting between Trump and most news sources, he's about to start operating in a world closer to reality - which means accepting that the Republican party is being stupid on a whole host of issues.

As a man looking for popularity, moving to the middle is liable to be his best chance for wide support from the general populace. It's also the easiest way to actually accomplish things in government (despite most of the members of government being too partisan to take advantage of it), since even your average partisan hack is not completely insane, leaving you with a majority in congress who are - at the end of the day - sane (though partisan). Any sane measure that goes in front of them, they are liable to pass. Getting 100% of Republicans to vote with you is a lot harder than getting 55% of people from both parties. Granted, it's possible that the parties will team up against him rather than fall prey to reasonable legislation getting passed, by a non-partisan politician (after all, that would spell their doom). But the end result of that is the government does nothing for 3.5 years and most people would be just as happy if the government simply didn't do anything but maintain the status quo. Governors who simply veto everything are quite popular. A centrist President, trying to pass reasonable legislation, and being ignored by the Legislature would also be quite popular.

Trump won't be able to pass anything that touches on partisan pressure points, but anything which would touch those points wouldn't be popular with large chunks of the general public either. And there are plenty of centrist solutions for health care, immigration, criminal justice, national defense, etc. that don't touch on any of those points, it's just that the two parties only ever offer solutions that antagonize their opponent.

If John Kelly can keep Trump in line for the next 3.5 years, it's entirely plausible that he could become a reasonably good President.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 09-06-2017 at 03:41 PM.
  #60  
Old 09-06-2017, 04:39 PM
EddyTeddyFreddy EddyTeddyFreddy is offline
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That's an attractive analysis, Sage Rat, but it's undercut by what appears to be Trump's Secondary Directive (the Prime being his own self-aggrandizement): the destruction of everything his predecessor accomplished, the spiteful erasure of all things Obama. Any initiative which seems to retain even a vestige of the Evil Kenyan's accomplishments will fail bigly with him.
  #61  
Old 09-06-2017, 05:25 PM
Sage Rat Sage Rat is offline
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Originally Posted by EddyTeddyFreddy View Post
That's an attractive analysis, Sage Rat, but it's undercut by what appears to be Trump's Secondary Directive (the Prime being his own self-aggrandizement): the destruction of everything his predecessor accomplished, the spiteful erasure of all things Obama. Any initiative which seems to retain even a vestige of the Evil Kenyan's accomplishments will fail bigly with him.
I'm not sure what that has to do with what I wrote?
  #62  
Old 09-06-2017, 07:07 PM
carnivorousplant carnivorousplant is online now
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I'm not sure what that has to do with what I wrote?
The Republican congresspeople will agree with him on making the wealthy more wealthy, and erasing things done by the Evil Kenyan. Those things will get done.
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  #63  
Old 09-06-2017, 08:02 PM
Sage Rat Sage Rat is offline
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Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
The Republican congresspeople will agree with him on making the wealthy more wealthy, and erasing things done by the Evil Kenyan. Those things will get done.
Again, I (genuinely) don't see what that has to do with what I wrote?
  #64  
Old 09-06-2017, 09:00 PM
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Again, I (genuinely) don't see what that has to do with what I wrote?
I don't think he will always be stuck trying to be centrist with a Republican congress; I think if it makes money, or deletes something of Obama, they will agree on it. Apparently constituents are giving congressmen hell over the Affordable Care Act, and their votes on such large numbers (forgive me) trump Trump's and their wishes.

Perhaps I misunderstood you.
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  #65  
Old 09-06-2017, 10:13 PM
EddyTeddyFreddy EddyTeddyFreddy is offline
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Simplifying my point: For Trump to become a centrist and work with Democrats he'd have to preserve and further initiatives begun by Obama, which is anathema to him. If he could execute his predecessor and erase his name from the history books, he'd do it in a New York minute.

Plus, he's been marinating in the rightwing sewer (Fox, Infowars, etc.) for decades. Leopards, spots, etc.
  #66  
Old 09-11-2017, 05:37 PM
Sage Rat Sage Rat is offline
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Ah, well Is say that if your conception of "centrism" is doing the occasional liberal thing, then yes he'd have a hard time working with Democrats. But leftish things are not centrist things, so that's not really an issue. For example, most Democrats would probably be perfectly happy to scrap Obamacare for a reasonable alternative that actually made sense. Obama was hamstrung by what he could actually pass using only one party. A dual-party measure can make larger leaps.
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