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  #551  
Old 07-24-2017, 01:27 PM
Ravenman Ravenman is offline
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
They would simply refuse to go before a Senate committee, as the Trump Pardon would have proved that they are innocent (sic). The Senate would huff and puff and do nothing.
Actually I think that refusing to answer questions, while they are totally free to do so without legal jeopardy, would seriously piss off quite a few Republicans. There are folks like McCain, Grassley, Flake, Collins, and several others who have zero patience for such arrogance.

Remember: Jared Kushner can be impeached in the exact same way that Jeff Sessions or Donald Trump could be impeached. I think the sort of arrogance you are hypothesizing would lead to several vacancies in the Executive Branch (even if nothing could be done about Flynn or Don Jr.)
  #552  
Old 07-24-2017, 01:28 PM
BobLibDem BobLibDem is offline
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They would simply refuse to go before a Senate committee, as the Trump Pardon would have proved that they are innocent (sic). The Senate would huff and puff and do nothing.

"We must now put this whole unfortunate incident behind us, as to continue would be of detriment to the country. It is a distraction, and we must now get down to business." (Quick - put me in touch with Kushner and Trump Jr. They know some guys in Moscow, - my election is coming up and I need all the help I can get)
They could be charged with contempt of Congress and since it would be after the pardon was issued, would require an additional pardon.
  #553  
Old 07-24-2017, 01:32 PM
John Mace John Mace is online now
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They could be charged with contempt of Congress and since it would be after the pardon was issued, would require an additional pardon.
They could also be called to testify under the umbrella investigation concerning Russia's actions during the 2016 election. You don't need to be under investigation yourself in order to have valuable information needed by the committee doing the investigation.
  #554  
Old 07-24-2017, 01:52 PM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
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It's possible to "not remember" if that serves one's purposes, of course.
  #555  
Old 07-24-2017, 02:08 PM
Euphonious Polemic Euphonious Polemic is offline
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They could be charged with contempt of Congress and since it would be after the pardon was issued, would require an additional pardon.
"could be" being the operative words. They would not be, as congress has no balls. They would simply want to make the whole thing go away.

As I said earlier, what we'll hear then from the politicians is " We must now put this whole unfortunate incident behind us, as to continue would be of detriment to the country. It is a distraction, and we must now get down to business."
  #556  
Old 07-24-2017, 02:15 PM
John Mace John Mace is online now
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It's possible to "not remember" if that serves one's purposes, of course.
Yep. But, as I understand it, they can't plead the 5th since they wouldn't be incriminating themselves.
  #557  
Old 07-24-2017, 02:21 PM
Bricker Bricker is offline
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Yep. But, as I understand it, they can't plead the 5th since they wouldn't be incriminating themselves.
That's correct. If they had a pardon in hand, they can't plead the Fifth. And if not, then from a political standpoint, pleading the Fifth is difficult if you're trying simultaneously to insist you've done nothing wrong.
  #558  
Old 07-24-2017, 02:33 PM
Euphonious Polemic Euphonious Polemic is offline
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That's correct. If they had a pardon in hand, they can't plead the Fifth. And if not, then from a political standpoint, pleading the Fifth is difficult if you're trying simultaneously to insist you've done nothing wrong.
After Trump pardons the lot, could they then simply refuse to testify before any group or committee about anything to do with Russia? If there are legal repercussions, they could be pretty sure that Trump would just pardon them again for that, and also, they would know that the Trump tweets and Trump-media would be pushing very hard on the them of "This is just a witch hunt now, it's all over, nothing to see here, the real story is about the leaks, what about Hillary"
  #559  
Old 07-24-2017, 02:46 PM
Airbeck Airbeck is offline
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
After Trump pardons the lot, could they then simply refuse to testify before any group or committee about anything to do with Russia? If there are legal repercussions, they could be pretty sure that Trump would just pardon them again for that, and also, they would know that the Trump tweets and Trump-media would be pushing very hard on the them of "This is just a witch hunt now, it's all over, nothing to see here, the real story is about the leaks, what about Hillary"
But if he pardons everyone, then isn't he admitting that it's actually not a witch hunt? If they've done nothing wrong there wouldn't be any need for pardons. So I think the "just a witch hunt" and "nothingburger" defenses would be rendered moot once pardons are issued? I guess bald faced bullshitting is pretty much all they've been doing so far though...
  #560  
Old 07-24-2017, 02:51 PM
Euphonious Polemic Euphonious Polemic is offline
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But if he pardons everyone, then isn't he admitting that it's actually not a witch hunt? If they've done nothing wrong there wouldn't be any need for pardons. So I think the "just a witch hunt" and "nothingburger" defenses would be rendered moot once pardons are issued? I guess bald faced bullshitting is pretty much all they've been doing so far though...
You're using logic. This does not work.

You need to use Trumpian logic:

"You see, I HAD to pardon them all BECAUSE it was a witch hunt. They were totally innocent, but Hillary and her deep state minions were going to railroad them, and disrupt my amazing, wonderful presidency that has been the best ever, and has accomplished more than anyone else, ever."

Of course that makes no sense to you and to me, and to anyone else with a modicum of sense. But it will appeal to the Trump base, and will give the Republican congress-toads the fig-leaf to start the process of ignoring the whole mess.

Last edited by Euphonious Polemic; 07-24-2017 at 02:53 PM.
  #561  
Old 07-24-2017, 03:12 PM
RickJay RickJay is offline
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After Trump pardons the lot, could they then simply refuse to testify before any group or committee about anything to do with Russia?
Well, they could, but if they have been ordered by subpeona to testify, they could go to jail for it.

Trump could in theory then pardon that, but he'd have to keep reissuing pardons. You cannot pardon something that was done in the future.
  #562  
Old 07-24-2017, 03:16 PM
asahi asahi is offline
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But if he pardons everyone, then isn't he admitting that it's actually not a witch hunt? If they've done nothing wrong there wouldn't be any need for pardons. So I think the "just a witch hunt" and "nothingburger" defenses would be rendered moot once pardons are issued? I guess bald faced bullshitting is pretty much all they've been doing so far though...
And baldfaced bullshitting is all they're going to do because they wouldn't begin to know how to function any other way. Most presidents who know nothing about being president usually hire experts who can help them navigate the labyrinth of the federal government and the legal system under the constitution. They do this because they value these institutions, the system, and our constitutional framework. Trump does not. He deals with complexity by taking a sledgehammer to it.
  #563  
Old 07-24-2017, 03:21 PM
John Mace John Mace is online now
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That's correct. If they had a pardon in hand, they can't plead the Fifth. And if not, then from a political standpoint, pleading the Fifth is difficult if you're trying simultaneously to insist you've done nothing wrong.
How about this tactic for Trump getting a pardon:

It is "suddenly discovered" that President Trump needs to have surgery and be under general anesthesia. During that time, VP Pence is acting president. As acting president, Pence pardons Trump.

Does the VP get all the powers of the president if he has to be acting president in such an instance?
  #564  
Old 07-24-2017, 03:28 PM
Johnny Ace Johnny Ace is offline
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They would simply refuse to go before a Senate committee, as the Trump Pardon would have proved that they are innocent (sic). The Senate would huff and puff and do nothing.

"We must now put this whole unfortunate incident behind us, as to continue would be of detriment to the country. It is a distraction, and we must now get down to business." (Quick - put me in touch with Kushner and Trump Jr. They know some guys in Moscow, - my election is coming up and I need all the help I can get)
Hmm..sounds to me like there's a pretty solid basis for a subpoena there. Trump can't control Congress, much as he'd like to and would in a heartbeat if given the opportunity.
  #565  
Old 07-24-2017, 03:41 PM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
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Does the VP get all the powers of the president if he has to be acting president in such an instance?
Depends on who's on the Supreme Court when it gets to them.
  #566  
Old 07-24-2017, 03:51 PM
D'Anconia D'Anconia is online now
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Remember: Jared Kushner can be impeached in the exact same way that Jeff Sessions or Donald Trump could be impeached.
Wait, what? Is a senior advisor to the President considered a "civil Officer of the United States"? More information, please.
  #567  
Old 07-24-2017, 04:01 PM
John Mace John Mace is online now
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Depends on who's on the Supreme Court when it gets to them.
Who would have standing to bring a case to the courts?
  #568  
Old 07-24-2017, 04:08 PM
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Wait, what? Is a senior advisor to the President considered a "civil Officer of the United States"? More information, please.
Here.
  #569  
Old 07-24-2017, 04:17 PM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
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Who would have standing to bring a case to the courts?
Any victim of the crime being pardoned. That could include the entire citizenry.
  #570  
Old 07-24-2017, 04:41 PM
Falchion Falchion is offline
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Remember: Jared Kushner can be impeached in the exact same way that Jeff Sessions or Donald Trump could be impeached.
I don't think it's ever been tested, but I would be hard pressed to read "civil Officers of the United States" in Section IV as something other than the "Officers of the United States" in Section II minus military officers. Why do you think otherwise?
  #571  
Old 07-24-2017, 05:13 PM
Euphonious Polemic Euphonious Polemic is offline
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Hmm..sounds to me like there's a pretty solid basis for a subpoena there. Trump can't control Congress, much as he'd like to and would in a heartbeat if given the opportunity.
I simply don't have any confidence that congress would subpoena or threaten Donnie half-scoop, or the son-in-law of Trump. They are gutless. They would respond by turtling. The system is screwed.

Last edited by Euphonious Polemic; 07-24-2017 at 05:14 PM.
  #572  
Old 07-24-2017, 05:16 PM
Captain Amazing Captain Amazing is offline
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
After Trump pardons the lot, could they then simply refuse to testify before any group or committee about anything to do with Russia? If there are legal repercussions, they could be pretty sure that Trump would just pardon them again for that, and also, they would know that the Trump tweets and Trump-media would be pushing very hard on the them of "This is just a witch hunt now, it's all over, nothing to see here, the real story is about the leaks, what about Hillary"
First off, I'm not sure the President has the power to pardon for contempt of Congress. Ex parte Grossman gives the President power to pardon criminal contempt of court, but as it points out:

Quote:
A pardon can only be granted for a contempt fully completed. Neither in this country nor in England can it interfere with the use of coercive measures to enforce a suitor's right
In other words, the president can pardon contempt when it's punitive, but not when it's to compelling civil action.

Additionally, Grossman points out the simple fact,

Quote:
If it be said that the President, by successive pardons of constantly recurring contempts in particular litigation, might deprive a court of power to enforce its orders in a recalcitrant neighborhood, it is enough to observe that such a course is so improbable as to furnish but little basis for argument. Exceptional cases like this, if to be imagined at all, would suggest a resort to impeachment, rather than to a narrow and strained construction of the general powers of the President.
Do you think Congress is just going to sit there and let the President impede their investigation? If he starts issuing pardons and then pardons of contempt and more on top of that, he's killing himself politically, and just increasing the chances of his own impeachment.
  #573  
Old 07-24-2017, 05:51 PM
John Mace John Mace is online now
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Any victim of the crime being pardoned. That could include the entire citizenry.
We'll let you be the test case for that.
  #574  
Old 07-24-2017, 06:33 PM
Euphonious Polemic Euphonious Polemic is offline
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Do you think Congress is just going to sit there and let the President impede their investigation? If he starts issuing pardons and then pardons of contempt and more on top of that, he's killing himself politically, and just increasing the chances of his own impeachment.
My fear is that the majority in congress (being the Republican members) would respond by quitting any investigations, refusing to discuss Russia anymore, and declaring victory.
  #575  
Old 07-24-2017, 09:29 PM
Captain Amazing Captain Amazing is offline
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My fear is that the majority in congress (being the Republican members) would respond by quitting any investigations, refusing to discuss Russia anymore, and declaring victory.
Except that doesn't seem to be what's happening. Both Richard Burr, the chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, and Chuck Grassley, the chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee, seem to be pretty committed to the Russia hearings, and I have to think that blatant interference by Trump will just get their backs up.
  #576  
Old 07-25-2017, 05:47 AM
Bricker Bricker is offline
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How about this tactic for Trump getting a pardon:

It is "suddenly discovered" that President Trump needs to have surgery and be under general anesthesia. During that time, VP Pence is acting president. As acting president, Pence pardons Trump.

Does the VP get all the powers of the president if he has to be acting president in such an instance?
Section 3 of the 25th Amendment says:

Quote:
Whenever the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that he is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, and until he transmits to them a written declaration to the contrary, such powers and duties shall be discharged by the Vice President as Acting President.
There is no limitation; nothing in the text or the legislative history suggests that the powers and duties exercised by the Acting President are not those of the President.
  #577  
Old 07-25-2017, 07:22 AM
BobLibDem BobLibDem is offline
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How about this tactic for Trump getting a pardon:

It is "suddenly discovered" that President Trump needs to have surgery and be under general anesthesia. During that time, VP Pence is acting president. As acting president, Pence pardons Trump.

Does the VP get all the powers of the president if he has to be acting president in such an instance?
Why would the guy whose doctor said he is in the best health of anyone in the history of the planet and aces all of his medical tests need surgery?

Here's the scenario I see more realistically playing out. The Senate goes into recess and McConnell doesn't leave it in pro forma session like he did with Obama. Then Don the Con fires Sessions and picks a new AG as a recess appointment, bypassing the Senate. This new AG fires Moeller, ending the investigation and no need for pardons.
  #578  
Old 07-25-2017, 07:33 AM
Captain Amazing Captain Amazing is offline
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Firing Muller would be a disaster for Trump. That's not to say he won't do it or try to do it, but the more it looks like he's interfering with the investigation into Russian election meddling, the more suspicious it looks, and the more politically weak he gets.
  #579  
Old 07-25-2017, 07:59 AM
BobLibDem BobLibDem is offline
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I don't think that matters to him. He wants to stay out of prison and doesn't care how bad it looks. He's got maybe 20% of the population that would fight over the chance to kiss his butt and a Republican majority who would overlook anything in order to play reverse Robin Hood. That 20% is not going to leave him no matter what, and they'll primary any Republican that fails to show proper deference to their Dear Leader.
  #580  
Old 07-25-2017, 08:38 AM
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The President called his AG weak on twitter this morning. Other speculation is that Trump has asked Sessions to fire Mueller and Sessions refused, thus Trump is trying to insult him into resigning.

I wonder if a President has ever, in US history, openly insulted a member of his cabinet that he himself appointed.
  #581  
Old 07-25-2017, 09:24 AM
Ravenman Ravenman is offline
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As I said earlier, what we'll hear then from the politicians is " We must now put this whole unfortunate incident behind us, as to continue would be of detriment to the country. It is a distraction, and we must now get down to business."
So why, in your theory of how Republicans think, has the Republican controlled Congress started at least three investigations into the Trump campaign and Russia? If Republicans were inclined to stonewall the investigations, that's something you do BEFORE diving in to the investigations.

I don't think you have a very solid grasp on any of the dynamics you're making predictions about.
  #582  
Old 07-25-2017, 09:32 AM
Captain Amazing Captain Amazing is offline
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I don't think that matters to him. He wants to stay out of prison and doesn't care how bad it looks. He's got maybe 20% of the population that would fight over the chance to kiss his butt and a Republican majority who would overlook anything in order to play reverse Robin Hood. That 20% is not going to leave him no matter what, and they'll primary any Republican that fails to show proper deference to their Dear Leader.
Oh, Trump may well flail around and do something desperate like firing Muller, but do you really think Congressional Republicans are going to throw themselves on their swords for him? Do you think he inspires that level of devotion?

Put it this way, let's say you're a conservative Republican congressman who wants to kill Obamacare, cut taxes for rich people, ban abortions, make poor people starve, etc. Given a choice, who would you rather have as president, mercurial and unreliable Donald Trump, or boring, uncontroversial Mike Pence?
  #583  
Old 07-25-2017, 09:51 AM
BobLibDem BobLibDem is offline
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Oh, Trump may well flail around and do something desperate like firing Muller, but do you really think Congressional Republicans are going to throw themselves on their swords for him? Do you think he inspires that level of devotion?
He doesn't inspire devotion. His supporters might. They are the modern version of Hitler Youth. Whatever Donald says is right. Look how many of them don't think that the Don Jr. meeting ever happened, despite Don Jr. himself providing the evidence. If the Hitler Youth thinks you're disrespecting Donald in any way, you WILL get primaried and you WILL lose your seat. So the motivation to toe the Donald line isn't love of him, it's fear of his follower cult.
  #584  
Old 07-25-2017, 10:37 AM
Sinaptics Sinaptics is offline
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So why, in your theory of how Republicans think, has the Republican controlled Congress started at least three investigations into the Trump campaign and Russia? If Republicans were inclined to stonewall the investigations, that's something you do BEFORE diving in to the investigations.

I don't think you have a very solid grasp on any of the dynamics you're making predictions about.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the investigations started prior to special counsel being retained? If not for special counsel, with Republicans in charge of both committees, they could have just stonewalled. Hell, Nunes had to recuse himself for attempting just that.
  #585  
Old 07-25-2017, 02:22 PM
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He doesn't inspire devotion. His supporters might. They are the modern version of Hitler Youth. Whatever Donald says is right. Look how many of them don't think that the Don Jr. meeting ever happened, despite Don Jr. himself providing the evidence. If the Hitler Youth thinks you're disrespecting Donald in any way, you WILL get primaried and you WILL lose your seat. So the motivation to toe the Donald line isn't love of him, it's fear of his follower cult.
Are you saying the goldfish has a cult of followers who through their electoral power, are already making us, right now, a de facto totalitarian dictatorship?
  #586  
Old 07-25-2017, 04:53 PM
BobLibDem BobLibDem is offline
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Are you saying the goldfish has a cult of followers who through their electoral power, are already making us, right now, a de facto totalitarian dictatorship?
Pretty much. The country may be roughly evenly split, but the cult of Donald has about 20% of the vote sewn up. They WILL show up and they WILL destroy any Republican who dares to think for himself. And they WILL vote for everything with an R next to it in Novembers. So just by turning out in massive numbers, that 20% of the brain dead pretty much run things.
  #587  
Old 07-25-2017, 05:12 PM
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If that's the case...if there's some 20% of the population that will doom Republicans if they don't do what Trump wants, and Congressional Republicans are so scared of them, they'll roll over, then why are they holding Russia hearings right now? And why has Trump's record of getting bills through Congress been so lousy, so far? He got Gorsuch confirmed, but he hasn't done much else. The first attempt at Obamacare repeal failed in the Senate, and the only way they were able to vote to open debate today was by McConnell saying, basically, "Vote to open debate on the bill, and them we'll figure out what bill we're debating.

My point is, Trump isn't acting the way you described. He's not acting like some self assured leader, using the bully pulpit to keep Congress in line. He's acting like somebody flailing around, begging Congress to do something so he can take credit for it, and alternately flattering and ranting at a bunch of Congressmen who are doing their best to ignore him.

Last edited by Captain Amazing; 07-25-2017 at 05:14 PM.
  #588  
Old 07-25-2017, 05:32 PM
Kolak of Twilo Kolak of Twilo is offline
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Except that doesn't seem to be what's happening. Both Richard Burr, the chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, and Chuck Grassley, the chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee, seem to be pretty committed to the Russia hearings, and I have to think that blatant interference by Trump will just get their backs up.
But McConnell is Majority Leader and would likely shut things down given the chance. Can't he remove committee chairs if he wants? If need be, I'm fairly certain he could muster enough support from members to shut it down, no matter how much Burr might squawk. Grassley on the other hand is little more than a partisan toady and would follow orders.

The other problem here is that impeachment is an action by the House, not the Senate. I don't know how there would ever be a vote on impeachment held in the House. Paul Ryan has rolled over and gone along with the President everytime he has been expected to. When has he ever acted in way that would make you think he will ever put the good of the country before his own self-interest?
  #589  
Old 07-25-2017, 06:15 PM
drad dog drad dog is offline
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Pretty much. The country may be roughly evenly split, but the cult of Donald has about 20% of the vote sewn up. They WILL show up and they WILL destroy any Republican who dares to think for himself. And they WILL vote for everything with an R next to it in Novembers. So just by turning out in massive numbers, that 20% of the brain dead pretty much run things.
Well you are the "moving party" in this argument, you have to admit, which involves some responsibility. I think you have to be more rigorous in your analysis. Who says it's "evenly split"?

Last edited by drad dog; 07-25-2017 at 06:18 PM.
  #590  
Old 07-25-2017, 06:17 PM
drad dog drad dog is offline
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But McConnell is Majority Leader and would likely shut things down given the chance. Can't he remove committee chairs if he wants? If need be, I'm fairly certain he could muster enough support from members to shut it down, no matter how much Burr might squawk. Grassley on the other hand is little more than a partisan toady and would follow orders.

The other problem here is that impeachment is an action by the House, not the Senate. I don't know how there would ever be a vote on impeachment held in the House. Paul Ryan has rolled over and gone along with the President everytime he has been expected to. When has he ever acted in way that would make you think he will ever put the good of the country before his own self-interest?
So are you in the de facto dictatorship camp? Sounds like it's all over but the crying. Isn't it a little soon to give up?
  #591  
Old 07-25-2017, 08:39 PM
Kolak of Twilo Kolak of Twilo is offline
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So are you in the de facto dictatorship camp? Sounds like it's all over but the crying. Isn't it a little soon to give up?
As usual, those are your words, not mine.
  #592  
Old 07-25-2017, 08:46 PM
drad dog drad dog is offline
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As usual, those are your words, not mine.
Well you can step up to the mic and say. So what's the guardrail between us and dictatorship right now? I haven't seen it in any of your posts.
  #593  
Old 07-25-2017, 09:05 PM
asahi asahi is offline
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Originally Posted by Captain Amazing View Post
If that's the case...if there's some 20% of the population that will doom Republicans if they don't do what Trump wants, and Congressional Republicans are so scared of them, they'll roll over, then why are they holding Russia hearings right now? And why has Trump's record of getting bills through Congress been so lousy, so far? He got Gorsuch confirmed, but he hasn't done much else. The first attempt at Obamacare repeal failed in the Senate, and the only way they were able to vote to open debate today was by McConnell saying, basically, "Vote to open debate on the bill, and them we'll figure out what bill we're debating.

My point is, Trump isn't acting the way you described. He's not acting like some self assured leader, using the bully pulpit to keep Congress in line. He's acting like somebody flailing around, begging Congress to do something so he can take credit for it, and alternately flattering and ranting at a bunch of Congressmen who are doing their best to ignore him.
It's true that Trump is struggling to find direction, but don't let that fool you for a moment: we're in extreme danger of sliding into something other than the democratic republic we've been used to.

They've been holding Russia hearings -- so what? None of the congressional committees have been really interested in moving these investigations forward. And the real investigations have repeatedly been rebuked in public by the very branch of power that is responsible for conducting intelligence gathering and getting to the bottom of what actually happened. The President has fired the one person who has probably been most involved with overseeing the investigations, and he is already threatening to fire more. He's already asserting the right to pardon anyone connected to this investigation, including presumably himself. And there is no indication at all that he's going to be stopped.

The Republicans in 2017 are the conservatives in late Weimar Germany, operating under the belief that they can use a narcissistic, bombastic buffoon to their advantage. Assuming that they will know the precise moment to pull the plug if he goes too far. But just take a look at what the Republican agenda is: taking healthcare and public transfer payments from tens of millions of people who depend on it for their basic necessities and quality of life, and replacing it with, well...nothing. See, this is the thing: the republican party probably on some level identifies with Trump and isn't too eager to investigate anything related to elections because they know that the average American absolutely does not benefit from their agenda. The Republicans have been deliberately making America less and less democratic precisely so that they can get away with what they're doing. We're becoming a plutocracy. And knowing full well that Americans don't identify with it and will eventually be outraged at what Republicans are selling them, their next concern after taking away people's quality of life and then their democracy, is to take away their freedoms to organize and be heard. We will become a security state.
  #594  
Old 07-25-2017, 09:10 PM
asahi asahi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
Well you can step up to the mic and say. So what's the guardrail between us and dictatorship right now? I haven't seen it in any of your posts.
I don't think any of us knows what a "dictatorship" would look like in the United States. There are differences between the United States today and Germany in the 1930s. We have a tradition of decentralization, regionalism, and states with independent streaks, which together might make it more challenging for a would be American fuhrer to take over completely. What concerns me more is the plutocracy, where one class of people become so powerful that they end up making all the important decisions that relate to economy and policies.
  #595  
Old 07-28-2017, 07:42 PM
septimus septimus is online now
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I didn't even notice this thread until it had grown to several hundred posts! Apology if someone else has made the point I'm making.

The question in OP reminds me of Bernie Madoff, another billionaire fraudster who had a big decision to make when justice was preparing to file felony charges.

Madoff, like fathers have done since time immemorial, laid down his life to save his children. He pled guilty and devoted what remained of his life to the fiction that his sons were too stupid to even know about the mammoth fraud. I do not endorse criminality, but one must give Mr. Madoff some credit for this loyalty to his family.

Trump, OTOH, treats loyalty only as something that applies to others' feelings towards Trump. He'd cheerfully push Melania in front of a moving train if there were a few million dollars in it for him. If he thinks Mueller is getting ready to file criminal charges, he'll turn against his children. We'll "learn" from his Tweets that the criminality in which he has wallowed was all the fault of Ivanka and Donald Junior. Poor little Donnie was the doting father led astray by his evil spawn. (No one with any sense would fall for such a lie, but Trump has never thought of others as human beings with intelligence.)

When Trump starts signing Presidential pardons, the only three names he'll think of will be "Me, Myself and I."

HTH.
  #596  
Old 07-28-2017, 09:07 PM
alphaboi867 alphaboi867 is online now
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And Trump's children will put everything back on him and claim they were just desperately trying to cover up their beloved father's, who might the sliding into dementia, criminal behavior. I wonder if you get a conservatorship over a sitting President?
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