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  #51  
Old 06-21-2017, 07:52 AM
madmonk28 madmonk28 is offline
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Fair enough, just note: I'm not going this time.
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  #52  
Old 06-21-2017, 10:04 AM
SteveG1 SteveG1 is offline
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Originally Posted by madmonk28 View Post
I can only assume you will be enlisting in the infantry so that you can be part of the occupying force that will patrol the streets of N Korea and put down any insurgency?
That's a hell of a good question.
  #53  
Old 06-21-2017, 10:18 AM
Folacin Folacin is offline
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I can only assume you will be enlisting in the infantry so that you can be part of the occupying force that will patrol the streets of N Korea and put down any insurgency? Also, we'll need to raise taxes to cover the hundreds of billions it will cost to rebuild the country and educate the people, you're ok with that too, right?
This is why I'm a long time proponent of a draft (note that although I'm way too old to be drafted, I have three sons of prime age). Oh, and no deferments (well, maybe severe mental disability). Even if you're in a wheelchair, they can find something for you to do, especially since we won't need all those contractors anymore. Not 100% of people (so not required national service), but whatever number the generals and admirals can convince Congress they need. Some slots for volunteers (need career military), but some significant proportion needs to be draftees (10%, 25%, 50%, I don't know).

Far too many people seem to look at the US military as some sort of video game. If you or someone you know is likely to be in harm's way, that should cut way down on the popularity of war/police actions/etc. without precluding going to war for a real national interest (including potentially removing odious regimes, even if they don't have oil).

Last edited by Folacin; 06-21-2017 at 10:19 AM.
  #54  
Old 06-21-2017, 10:31 AM
Monty Monty is online now
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Draft? Oh, hell, no! Of course I know that selective service registration is required in the US. But, as career military myself, with my entire career in the all volunteer era, I can confidently say, the very last thing the military needs is people who don't want to be in the military in the first place. The rest of your post shows an enormous lack of understanding of military service. If you did, in fact, serve and have that view, well, that's a damn shame.
  #55  
Old 06-21-2017, 10:46 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr. Miskatonic View Post
Given the clumsiness of the NK regime if they wanted to frame him for something they would have said espionage or other spy crimes. 'Stealing a flag' doesn't seem like something they would come up with.
It wasn't even a flag. It was a propoganda poster with Kim Il Sung or Kim Jong Il with some communist slogan. There was some grainy security video footage that probably wouldn't hold up in court here because the quality is so bad.
  #56  
Old 06-21-2017, 10:50 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Yeah, containing North Korea is a joint problem of South Korea, China, and Japan. They've done what they've needed to for decades now. So why would we want to override their wishes and put them all in danger?
Cuz we're Merikuh and they killed a white man.
  #57  
Old 06-21-2017, 10:51 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Stringbean View Post
With well-coordinated, highly-targeted strikes couldn't we eliminate the Kim regime and it's military arsenal before they were even aware of what was going on?

I mean, Soviet tanks from the 1960's can only do so much in 2017....

The real issue is what to do with North Korea after the fall. It's not like deposing Saddam was the central quagmire of Iraqi Freedom.
They also have a hundred thousand rockets and missiles pointed at the capital of south korea only 35 miles from the DMZ.
  #58  
Old 06-21-2017, 03:40 PM
Stringbean Stringbean is offline
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They also have a hundred thousand rockets and missiles pointed at the capital of south korea only 35 miles from the DMZ.
If you and I know those exist, so does the DOD and I imagine with considerable certainty of where.

Again, we deposed Saddam within weeks. His military capability was greater than anything North Korea can effect.

Finally, with regard to America's moral standing, deposing a ruthless dictator and installing a democracy doesn't do us harm. Unless every North Korean fought to the death for their Pillsbury Dictator, I think they would quickly embrace us the moment they get a quality meal.

Call me naive I suppose, but do so at the risk of vastly underestimating how much the people of North Korea suffer due to lack of basic sustenance. I don't see them devolving into sectarian war as we all saw coming with Iraq. If we give them food and built their infrastructure, I doubt they see us as the invading hordes. If nothing else, the revelation of how the Chinese and South Koreans live right next door will open their eyes.
  #59  
Old 06-21-2017, 03:41 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
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Originally Posted by Folacin View Post

Far too many people seem to look at the US military as some sort of video game. If you or someone you know is likely to be in harm's way, that should cut way down on the popularity of war/police actions/etc. without precluding going to war for a real national interest (including potentially removing odious regimes, even if they don't have oil).
I don't think that matters much. The US has become technologically advanced enough that we can fight wars with few people.

Bombers and air support, cyber hackers, special forces, cruise missiles, weapons and training, spy satellites, diplomatic pressure on a nation's allies, etc can influence a war with minimal us casualties and costs. If anything, we will see more of this because it doesn't cost us much in life or money.

Of course, you can't occupy a nation with that stuff. But you can help a domestic insurgency defeat a government with them.
  #60  
Old 06-21-2017, 03:48 PM
Folacin Folacin is offline
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Originally Posted by Monty View Post
Draft? Oh, hell, no! Of course I know that selective service registration is required in the US. But, as career military myself, with my entire career in the all volunteer era, I can confidently say, the very last thing the military needs is people who don't want to be in the military in the first place. The rest of your post shows an enormous lack of understanding of military service. If you did, in fact, serve and have that view, well, that's a damn shame.
Nope, never served. Never even registered, as there was a small gap where you weren't required to (I have older and younger brothers who were required to register).

And, yeah, I understand that draftees would mostly not attain the level of achievement that the all volunteer force is capable of. But I still want them there as a bulwark against adventurism. Mr and Mrs Main Street (and Senator Silverspoon) are much less likely to support a war if their offspring is at risk of getting her ass shot.
  #61  
Old 06-21-2017, 04:00 PM
Velocity Velocity is online now
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From some books/sources I've read:

1. North Koreans are indeed more aware of what is going on in the outside world than the outside world gives them credit for. Indeed, it is apparently common knowledge in the North that the South is far more affluent, etc.

2. Many North Koreans don't genuinely hate the USA.

3. Nevertheless, if push came to shove, North Koreans would fight, and fight hard. They would be no pushovers, no slouches. Sure, technology-wise they'd be slaughtered en masse, but psychologically they'd be tough to the bone.


The three things may seem mutually contradictory, but people are contradictory beings.
  #62  
Old 06-21-2017, 04:08 PM
Bayard Bayard is offline
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Unless every North Korean fought to the death for their Pillsbury Dictator, I think they would quickly embrace us the moment they get a quality meal.
My bold. It's bound to happen one of these times, I guess.
  #63  
Old 06-21-2017, 04:13 PM
madmonk28 madmonk28 is offline
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Originally Posted by Stringbean View Post
If you and I know those exist, so does the DOD and I imagine with considerable certainty of where.

Again, we deposed Saddam within weeks. His military capability was greater than anything North Korea can effect.

Finally, with regard to America's moral standing, deposing a ruthless dictator and installing a democracy doesn't do us harm. Unless every North Korean fought to the death for their Pillsbury Dictator, I think they would quickly embrace us the moment they get a quality meal.

Call me naive I suppose, but do so at the risk of vastly underestimating how much the people of North Korea suffer due to lack of basic sustenance. I don't see them devolving into sectarian war as we all saw coming with Iraq. If we give them food and built their infrastructure, I doubt they see us as the invading hordes. If nothing else, the revelation of how the Chinese and South Koreans live right next door will open their eyes.
I'm not going to call you naive, I'm going to call you a complete fucking moron.
  #64  
Old 06-21-2017, 04:14 PM
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If you and I know those exist, so does the DOD and I imagine with considerable certainty of where.

Again, we deposed Saddam within weeks. His military capability was greater than anything North Korea can effect.
I think you vastly overestimate our ability to destroy embedded artillery where they've had 40 years to harden the area. The simple truth is that no matter how much we throw at them, millions of South Koreans are going to die. Yes, we'd wipe out the NK regime but it wouldn't be instantaneous and lots of people would be killed before the danger was neutralized.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0b9e9848eb990

Quote:
“These perfectly positioned offensive artillery firing positions are virtually impenetrable, extremely difficult to take out by counterfire,” said retired Army Maj. Gen. Robert H. Scales. “The terrain greatly favors the North, this arc of south-facing granite mountainsides just over the [Demilitarized Zone], in a position to pummel Seoul for weeks on end.” This leaves South Korea and the U.S. “with very little real capability to respond.”
http://www.newsweek.com/2017/05/05/w...ks-588861.html

Quote:
But this would not be a one-week walkover, like the first Gulf War against Saddam Hussein, when his forces were arrayed like clay pigeons in the Iraqi and Kuwaiti deserts, where they were easily destroyed by U.S. air power. Conventional thinking in the Pentagon is that it would be a four- to six-month conflict with high-intensity combat and many dead. In 1994, when President Bill Clinton contemplated the use of force to knock out the North’s nuclear weapons program, the then commander of U.S.-Republic of Korea forces, Gary Luck, told his commander in chief that a war on the peninsula would likely result in 1 million dead, and nearly $1 trillion of economic damage.
  #65  
Old 06-21-2017, 04:15 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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They grow up learning that no one is to be trusted, and the only way to get ahead is to look out for themselves. Now, between the fake news told about us by their own government and the real news about us they get smatterings of, why the hell would anyone assume they would believe anything we say, let alone embrace us?
  #66  
Old 06-21-2017, 04:20 PM
Stringbean Stringbean is offline
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An empty stomach needs little convincing.
  #67  
Old 06-21-2017, 04:24 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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An empty stomach needs little convincing.
Lifetimes of indoctrination aren't going to be undone by bowls of rice.
  #68  
Old 06-21-2017, 05:37 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Finally, with regard to America's moral standing, deposing a ruthless dictator
A comparatively easy task when dealing with a military much weaker than our own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stringbean
and installing a democracy
Oh right, that part. The notoriously-difficult-to-the-point-of-repeated-catastrophic-failure part.
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Originally Posted by Stringbean
doesn't do us harm.
Well, it might not do us harm image-wise or interests-wise if we could ever, you know, get it to actually work. There is no reason to suppose we'd be any more successful at such a quixotic program in North Korea than we've been in Iraq or Afghanistan (or Vietnam before them).

And if we're talking moral standing, I think the salient question is not how much harm such an attempt would do to us, but how much it would do to the people of North Korea. Taking out a tyrannical leader and leaving a nation (and many of their neighbors) in a state of chaotic endemic bloodshed is not much of a moral accomplishment (which you think we'd have figured out the first few times we tried it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stringbean
Call me naive I suppose
You suppose correctly, for a change. You are indeed appallingly naive about realistic prospects for the outcome of attempting to reshape another country's entire system of government via military aggression.

While Otto Warmbier's harsh treatment and untimely death are a tragedy, and the North Korean regime is unspeakably and barbarically despotic, none of that is a legitimate casus belli for violently overthrowing another nation's government.

Last edited by Kimstu; 06-21-2017 at 05:38 PM.
  #69  
Old 06-21-2017, 06:25 PM
Monty Monty is online now
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
It wasn't even a flag. It was a propoganda poster with Kim Il Sung or Kim Jong Il with some communist slogan. There was some grainy security video footage that probably wouldn't hold up in court here because the quality is so bad.
No doubt it was put up specifically for the staged video.

Last edited by Monty; 06-21-2017 at 06:26 PM.
  #70  
Old 06-22-2017, 10:38 AM
SteveG1 SteveG1 is offline
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Lifetimes of indoctrination aren't going to be undone by bowls of rice.
Probably true, but one of the lessons from WW2 which came out of how we treated POWs (compared to how the Russians or Axis did) was,

If you treat them humanely they will be forced to question all the propaganda they were told about US being the monsters. In fact after WW2 many German POWs chose to stay here and became citizens.
  #71  
Old 06-22-2017, 10:42 AM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
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Not just prisoners, either. You could add the entire population of occupied West Germany, especially West Berlin during and after the Airlift, to that assessment.
  #72  
Old 06-22-2017, 10:49 AM
Buck Godot Buck Godot is online now
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Again, we deposed Saddam within weeks. His military capability was greater than anything North Korea can effect.
I was unaware the Saddam had nuclear weapons. Perhaps you should take this information to Fox News I am sure that after all these years they would be interested to know that he did indeed have weapons of mass destruction.

Last edited by Buck Godot; 06-22-2017 at 10:49 AM.
  #73  
Old 06-22-2017, 10:54 AM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
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To be fair, it isn't clear that Kim has any that work.
  #74  
Old 06-22-2017, 12:47 PM
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To be fair, it isn't clear that Kim has any that work.
They might not be able to deliver them via missile but they've gotten the bombs themselves to work.
  #75  
Old 06-22-2017, 12:57 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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To be fair, it isn't clear that Kim has any that work.
I think forcing Kim's hand is a very bad way to find out, don't you?
  #76  
Old 06-22-2017, 06:28 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
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3. Nevertheless, if push came to shove, North Koreans would fight, and fight hard. They would be no pushovers, no slouches. Sure, technology-wise they'd be slaughtered en masse, but psychologically they'd be tough to the bone.
Would they? The Iraqi army didn't fight to the death, either under Saddam Hussein or under the provincial government. They gave up en masse against the US and against ISIS.

I don't understand the psychology of soldiers, but I don't think NK has very good military training. They don't have western levels at least, and I don't know how the soldiers would react to a true war. Would a bunch of starving soldiers who know they are fighting a losing war to defend an evil government really fight to the death? Who knows. But just because the government is brutal doesn't mean soldiers will obey it in an all out war. That didn't work in Iraq.

Then again, Iraq had issues with religious and ethnic sectarianism, that wouldn't be an issue in North Korea.

Also just because the official Iraqi military lost pretty quick, a lot of veterans ended up joining the insurgency. I don't know how much that'd be a problem in NK.

Last edited by Wesley Clark; 06-22-2017 at 06:30 PM.
  #77  
Old 06-22-2017, 09:08 PM
Monty Monty is online now
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Yes, the North Korean soldiers would fight. While they are not as well-trained or even as well-fed as their counterparts in the South, the NK army has one thing going for them: the soldiers are not really aware that their government is evil. Another thing going for them is that, for most of those in the military, their understanding of the US and ROK is what propaganda the NK regime has taught them their entire lives. Consider the civilian casualties during the Battle of Okinawa. While the indigenous population of Okinawa had no love for the IJA, they only knew what they were taught.
  #78  
Old 06-22-2017, 09:15 PM
Monty Monty is online now
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Another thing to consider about regime change in NK: What do you think is going to happen to all the prisoners in the life-time concentration camps? My South Korean friends agree with me; the guards will flat-out murder the entire prison population and then either kill themselves or try to "blend in" with the civilian population to avoid the trials the government of re-unified Korea will certainly hold.
  #79  
Old 06-22-2017, 10:15 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
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Yes, the North Korean soldiers would fight. While they are not as well-trained or even as well-fed as their counterparts in the South, the NK army has one thing going for them: the soldiers are not really aware that their government is evil. Another thing going for them is that, for most of those in the military, their understanding of the US and ROK is what propaganda the NK regime has taught them their entire lives. Consider the civilian casualties during the Battle of Okinawa. While the indigenous population of Okinawa had no love for the IJA, they only knew what they were taught.
Maybe 20 or 30 years ago. But a lot has happened since then.

The great famine of the 1990s made a lot of people lose faith in the state. Plus when China industrialized, a lot of their old technology ended up in North Korea so now the nation is full of DVD players, VHS players, etc. that the Chinese didn't want. Supposedly a lot of North Koreans have access to western media now, and (as I once read) if they send the military or secret police to confiscate the media, then they just watch it instead.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ign-media.html

Quote:
In a survey of 250 North Korean refugees and overseas travelers in 2010, 48 percent said they had watched foreign DVDs while inside the country, up from just 20 percent two years earlier, the study said.
If half of North Koreans (at least the ones who escaped) were watching foreign DVDs in 2010, the number is likely higher for the general population too as of 2017.
  #80  
Old 06-23-2017, 11:03 AM
SteveG1 SteveG1 is offline
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To be fair, it isn't clear that Kim has any that work.
I keep hoping one of his missiles will land on his own house
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