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  #51  
Old 06-20-2017, 08:20 AM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by FairyChatMom View Post
Minor hijack - I'm in Southern MD - St. Mary's county - and I've been surprised at the number of interracial couples I encounter. When we moved here 13 years ago, I was bracing for racism, but while it does exist, it's not as pervasive as I'd expected. I've encountered more than my share of assholes, but there are still enough decent folks to keep me from feeling humanity is doomed.
Yeah, it actually doesn't seem to be as bad now. At least I haven't had anyone assume I'm a racist white guy lately
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  #52  
Old 06-20-2017, 08:33 AM
digs digs is offline
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Fifty some posts later and i'm still wondering how overwhelmingly racist you'd have to be to call the Beatles "jungle music".

Reminds me of my fundie pastor railing against "Satanic Rock and Roll!" (right in my face, I guess he grabbed the first "youngster" he could find after the service), and he rears back and says "As practiced by bands like the Eagles!" I started laughing, covered that by a coughing fit, and had to leave before I started mocking him: "The Eagles? What about Megadeth?" And quoting lyrics from the "Satanic Panic" of the 80s (this was 1982).
  #53  
Old 06-20-2017, 08:55 AM
Orwell Orwell is offline
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Originally Posted by panache45 View Post
This reminds me of something I've noticed for a long time:

A racist white person assumes all white people are racists.
A sexist man assumes all men are racists.
An antisemitic gentile assumes all gentiles are antisemitic.
A homophobic straight person assumes all straight people are homophobic.
Etc.
And the corollary is that people who look for racism find it everywhere at all times. It must be exhausting to find/notice/imagine/construct racism all day, every day.
  #54  
Old 06-20-2017, 09:11 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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Originally Posted by Orwell View Post
And the corollary is that people who look for racism find it everywhere at all times. It must be exhausting to find/notice/imagine/construct racism all day, every day.
Are you saying that this is what happened in the OP, or are you "just saying"?
  #55  
Old 06-20-2017, 09:21 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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There's a chance he wasn't being racist at all when he referred to The Beatles as "jungle music".
Likewise, there's a chance that when someone I knew a few years back pointed at some young African-American women across the street and referred to them as "jungle bunnies", it was because he had met them before at a Rwandan Playboy Club.
  #56  
Old 06-20-2017, 09:21 AM
Orwell Orwell is offline
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
Are you saying that this is what happened in the OP, or are you "just saying"?
A little of both. The Beatles are the most famous musical act of the last century, and everyone knows they are all white. How could it possibly be racist to refer to "jungle music" in reference to the Beatles?

OK, perhaps the other guy didn't recognize that the music was the Beatles. I'm hard-pressed to think of many songs by the Beatles that sound like what most would consider to be traditional black music - R&B, gospel, funk, hip-hop, etc. It seems more like a comment that would have been made 50 years ago about rock music in general, in a completely non-racist way, BTW. My thought in the OP's situation would be to think about the other guy being a fuddy-duddy, hopelessly old-fashioned or nuts... but not racist.

But in a more general sense, it is my observation that some people go out of their way to look for racism, and analyze every comment and situation through that prism.
  #57  
Old 06-20-2017, 09:21 AM
Gatopescado Gatopescado is offline
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Originally Posted by Johanna View Post
So one of the questions was: "Do the Beatles have SOUL?" (uppercase in original)
Rubber Soul.
  #58  
Old 06-20-2017, 09:35 AM
Asimovian Asimovian is offline
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I've mentioned this on the board before, but I witnessed a driver hit another car in a parking lot. Managed to memorize the license plate and report it. In a later conversation with a responding police officer, he informed me that they'd tracked down the driver and matched up broken glass from the scene with the broken headlight on her car. He said that she'd claimed she'd hit a tree. I said, "Wow, so she just straight up lied to your face about it, even with the evidence there in front of her?" The officer, who was white, responded, "Oh, she's just being Asian."

I was dumbfounded:

a) he would say that at all to a relative stranger, and
b) he wouldn't realize that I'd immediately wonder what he considers "just being black."
  #59  
Old 06-20-2017, 09:39 AM
Orwell Orwell is offline
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
There's a chance he wasn't being racist at all when he referred to The Beatles as "jungle music".
Likewise, there's a chance that when someone I knew a few years back pointed at some young African-American women across the street and referred to them as "jungle bunnies", it was because he had met them before at a Rwandan Playboy Club.
You really find those two examples to be equivalent?
  #60  
Old 06-20-2017, 09:42 AM
Omega Glory Omega Glory is offline
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Originally Posted by TriPolar View Post
Surprises me that some people haven't heard the term. It was widely used in times past when idiots like the one you met on the bus complained about rock music corrupting our youth. Maybe it's a regionalism, but I didn't think so.
It surprises me too. I don't think it's an obscure term.
  #61  
Old 06-20-2017, 09:44 AM
Gyrate Gyrate is offline
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Originally Posted by Orwell View Post
A little of both. The Beatles are the most famous musical act of the last century, and everyone knows they are all white. How could it possibly be racist to refer to "jungle music" in reference to the Beatles?
Because "jungle music" was exactly how racists used to refer to rock 'n' roll music, which they thought was too intertwined with black culture (and also because of the heavy emphasis on drums*). It's also been used in reference to rap or hip-hop music. Did you not know that?

Frankly, though, if I heard someone referring to the Beatles as "jungle music" now I'd wonder if they'd fallen through a wormhole from 1965 because wow, that's dated. It was already self-parodying by the time Archie Bunker was spouting such stuff in the early 1970s.

And it's my observation that some people go out of their way to assume that accusations of racism are due to oversensitivity rather than actual racism, and analyze every comment and situation through that prism.
  #62  
Old 06-20-2017, 10:09 AM
Machine Elf Machine Elf is offline
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Originally Posted by Orwell View Post
And the corollary is that people who look for racism find it everywhere at all times. It must be exhausting to find/notice/imagine/construct racism all day, every day.
Best example ever:
Racist Surgical Scars
  #63  
Old 06-20-2017, 11:49 AM
Johanna Johanna is offline
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Originally Posted by Bricker View Post
Wow -- I remember you sharing this anecdote the first year I joined the SD.

Time flies.

But it was actually the Black Intelligence Test of Cultural Homogeneity.
Hey, pretty good memory! Yes, that was the official revised version. I was quoting from the earlier guerrilla version. I bought an anthology of African-American writing in 1976 where I read that. I haven't been able to track down the title of that book, but this is a version of the test named the "Dove Counter Balance Test" that includes the unsoulful Beatles.

As for the more confrontational title, I definitely remember it was a thing; I could not have made that up myself.
  #64  
Old 06-20-2017, 12:16 PM
Johanna Johanna is offline
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Originally Posted by monstro View Post
As an African American, I can tell you that I've never in my life set foot in a "jungle".

Jazz did not originate in a jungle.
Neither did gospel, blues, soul, rock and roll, or hip hop.

Not unless we're talking about a jungle made out of concrete.
Roots of African-American music (e.g. the pentatonic minor scale, which is the skeleton of the blues) have been traced to Mali, which is grasslands, Sahel, and desert. No jungle at all there.

"Stop playing that confounded Sahel music!" doesn't have the same ring. But it is the truth. What jtur88 imagines is quite far from the truth.
  #65  
Old 06-20-2017, 12:24 PM
Procrustus Procrustus is offline
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Originally Posted by Omega Glory View Post
It surprises me too. I don't think it's an obscure term.
I'm 55 years old and don't recall hearing the term "jungle music" in any context. But I don't get out much. Nonetheless, it did sound racist to me when I read the OP.
  #66  
Old 06-20-2017, 12:26 PM
holmes holmes is offline
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How Mr. Cleary refers to the popular music of his students' generation.

Last edited by holmes; 06-20-2017 at 12:27 PM.
  #67  
Old 06-20-2017, 12:34 PM
Johanna Johanna is offline
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Originally Posted by digs View Post
Fifty some posts later and i'm still wondering how overwhelmingly racist you'd have to be to call the Beatles "jungle music".

Reminds me of my fundie pastor railing against "Satanic Rock and Roll!" (right in my face, I guess he grabbed the first "youngster" he could find after the service), and he rears back and says "As practiced by bands like the Eagles!" I started laughing, covered that by a coughing fit, and had to leave before I started mocking him: "The Eagles? What about Megadeth?" And quoting lyrics from the "Satanic Panic" of the 80s (this was 1982).
Oo, oo, stupid pastor, see how low he dives.
Oo, oo, stupid pastor got no sense, he just jives.
  #68  
Old 06-20-2017, 12:57 PM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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My grandparents. Not the KKK ones; those are both dead. My, er, for lack of a better word, politely racist grandparents who seem oblivious to the fact that they are racists. (By politely I mean they would never say the ''n-word.'' I don't think racism can ever really be polite.)

I am sitting with them at a restaurant in Ann Arbor, Michigan, my old stomping ground. If you haven't been there, it's about as racially and ethnically diverse and embracing of liberal cultural values as Michigan gets. We are on campus, surrounded by youthful students of all colors, and I am feeling old.

My grandmother is updating me on my now teenage cousins in a perfectly audible voice. "He was on the basketball team, but you know, then they closed down the local black school, the team has been destroyed by all these hooligan black kids joining. They spend more time on the bench than playing the game."

It's not that this is totally unlike her, in fact it's very like her, and quite a common sentiment in the cesspool that is Jackson, Michigan. But the fact that she had the obliviousness to say it in Ann Arbor just really blew my mind.

I've called them out on their racist shit before. My grandmother gets defensive, my grandfather is amused as hell at her defensiveness, and that's pretty much how it goes. So in this case, I just changed the subject.

See also: ''Black people are ruining the community pool with their hair goop.''

Last edited by Spice Weasel; 06-20-2017 at 12:58 PM.
  #69  
Old 06-20-2017, 02:52 PM
FloatyGimpy FloatyGimpy is offline
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Had an incident a couple of days ago. I go walking every day in a provincial park that also has a campground. Walking through the woods I came across a man attempting to cut down a small tree for firewood. I told him he's not allowed to do that and has to get wood from the park ranger who will come around with his truck. The guy didn't say much and started chopping again shortly after I left. I met his girlfriend coming down the path with a saw.

So I found the park guy and told him "hey there's some people in the park cutting down a tree for firewood". Park guy gets a furious look on his face and says "those damn orientals!!".

I guess he'd already told them they weren't allowed to do that so he knew who I meant right away but it was surprising to hear "orientals".
  #70  
Old 06-20-2017, 05:51 PM
Mean Mr. Mustard Mean Mr. Mustard is offline
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Older African American cow-orker to me, in a loud voice and in front of many people (and entirely unprovoked): "Mr. Mustard, you French, ain't you? French are racists".


mmm
  #71  
Old 06-20-2017, 08:10 PM
Dr. Crap Dr. Crap is offline
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Meanwhile, In Downtown Los Angeles...

A senior kinda-coworker of mine has a fetish for east Asians. He has said to me on multiple occasions that if he were to marry again for the sixth time he would try to, "Marry an Oriental girl because you come home and they rub your feet and make you dinner...not like this bitch I have now." He also brings up Oriental massage parlors, the benefits of an Oriental diet and how decent Oriental families are a couple times a month -- all with a twinkle in his eyes. I have seen him bow deeply to an elderly Korean woman who offered him a bottle of water on a sweltering day. He came up to me afterwards, smiling from ear to ear, and said, "A nice Oriental gave me this...nice people!"
  #72  
Old 06-20-2017, 08:10 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
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Originally Posted by Orwell View Post
You really find those two examples to be equivalent?
Historical uses of "jungle music" as a racist term.

The effort people go into in order to deny racism in America is astonishing and disheartening.
  #73  
Old 06-20-2017, 08:43 PM
buddha_david buddha_david is offline
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Not precisely racist, but this should count.

Today, my dental hygenist commented on my Arch Enemy t-shirt. I told her they are a death metal band with a female lead singer, which is very unusual for heavy metal.

She said: "She must be a dyke, then."

Me: "Umm...I don't think so, but I suppose it's possible..."

[FTR, I did do some Internet searching and as far as I can determine, Angela Gossow & Alissa White-Gluz are both straight.]
  #74  
Old 06-20-2017, 10:43 PM
Velocity Velocity is online now
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Overt: Several years ago, near Boston, someone yelled, "Go back to China!" at my aunt, cousins and I.


Not so overt, in fact perhaps not even technically racist: Several years before that, a college RA looked at my messy dorm room and commented that he was disappointed, since he expected that, given my racial background, that I'd be a tidier or more orderly person. Nope, I'm a slob.
  #75  
Old 06-21-2017, 07:49 AM
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Overt: Several years ago, near Boston, someone yelled, "Go back to China!" at my aunt, cousins and I.
Lemme see if I can do this right:

Why are you so convinced that's racism? Maybe you looked exactly like the shouter's best friend, who happens to live in China, and he'd organized a special surprise party for that friend back home, and he was excited for his friend to get to go to the party! It sure must be exhausting to hunt for racism everywhere!

How was that?
  #76  
Old 06-21-2017, 08:32 AM
Darren Garrison Darren Garrison is offline
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Originally Posted by Nawth Chucka View Post
His intent is immaterial, it is racist to implicitly compare black to jungle.
It would probably be too much to ask from him to expect him to say "veldt music."
  #77  
Old 06-21-2017, 08:47 AM
Machine Elf Machine Elf is offline
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Not so overt, in fact perhaps not even technically racist: Several years before that, a college RA looked at my messy dorm room and commented that he was disappointed, since he expected that, given my racial background, that I'd be a tidier or more orderly person. Nope, I'm a slob.
From The Onion: Asian-Americans Defying Traditional Stereotypes

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Onion
When Dith Trang and Rodney Kim get together after school, academics are the furthest thing from their minds.

Described by friends as "shiftless and dumb," Lin Bu is one of a growing number of Asian-Americans helping to dispel the myth of the hardworking, motivated Easterner.

Instead, the two ninth-graders go to Trang's house to listen to rap music, eat Doritos and get high.

"Don't make assumptions about us just because we're Asian," says the bespectacled Trang, passing his friend a joint. "Not all of us care about college."
  #78  
Old 06-21-2017, 06:10 PM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Lemme see if I can do this right:

Why are you so convinced that's racism? Maybe you looked exactly like the shouter's best friend, who happens to live in China, and he'd organized a special surprise party for that friend back home, and he was excited for his friend to get to go to the party! It sure must be exhausting to hunt for racism everywhere!

How was that?
Perfect.

The problem I think with a lot of this is people want to contest isolated incidents without any real sense of the sheer magnitude of such incidents that many people of color encounter. The intent of any given incident is not as important as the fact that the target is tired of experiencing this shit at a rate that could not possibly be accidental.

(Obviously "Go back to China!" Is in no way ambiguous to reasonable people.)
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  #79  
Old 06-21-2017, 06:14 PM
Leaper Leaper is offline
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But once you coin a word to talk about that, it gets sneered at. Can't win, I swear.

I've only had one overt racist thing happen to me, but the person in question clearly wasn't in her right mind.
  #80  
Old 06-21-2017, 08:57 PM
Velocity Velocity is online now
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Lemme see if I can do this right:

Why are you so convinced that's racism? Maybe you looked exactly like the shouter's best friend, who happens to live in China, and he'd organized a special surprise party for that friend back home, and he was excited for his friend to get to go to the party! It sure must be exhausting to hunt for racism everywhere!

How was that?
Bravo

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Originally Posted by Machine Elf View Post
Regrettably, this is less and less a joke by the day. I see a small but significant number of Asian-Americans these days, especially college students, who seem to be behaving as trashily as they can, for no purpose other than to be......trashy.
  #81  
Old 06-22-2017, 07:27 AM
Vinyl Turnip Vinyl Turnip is offline
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Lemme see if I can do this right:

Why are you so convinced that's racism? Maybe you looked exactly like the shouter's best friend, who happens to live in China, and he'd organized a special surprise party for that friend back home, and he was excited for his friend to get to go to the party! It sure must be exhausting to hunt for racism everywhere!

How was that?
Is it not possible that at the time, they were struggling to eat from flimsy paper plates?
  #82  
Old 06-22-2017, 03:37 PM
Johanna Johanna is offline
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Historical uses of "jungle music" as a racist term.

The effort people go into in order to deny racism in America is astonishing and disheartening.
LHoD, you have probably just won the thread. Excellent work.

"One example of covert racism was the use of the term 'jungle music' to refer to rock and roll. ... But the real purpose of using that term was to connect rock with the jungle, or black Africa, and to imply that rock and roll had to be scorned because it was the music of blacks, who were 'savages'."

Q.E.D.
  #83  
Old 06-22-2017, 04:56 PM
Icarus Icarus is offline
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Not racism, in this case, but homophobia.

A lady I was working with and her husband. In casual conversation we were briefly talking about a movie I had just seen. It was a romantic comedy. He said something to the effect, "Oh, that fag movie." It struck me that he was such a 100% male "guy" that he couldn't even conceive of a movie appealing to women (and that it was more correctly a "chick flick"). Instead, in his world view, his only filter was "I'm a guy. The world exists for guys. What kind of guy would see this movie?" Now, he wasn't calling me a "fag" at all - just the movie.
  #84  
Old 06-22-2017, 06:09 PM
BigT BigT is offline
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Originally Posted by Johanna View Post
This may be a relevant point: Many years ago, I came across a product of the 1960s Black Power movement, the "Black Intelligence Test to Counter Honkeyism (B.I.T.C.H.)" — which was written to demonstrate how IQ tests are culturally/racially biased in their assumptions and questions. All the questions were ones you'd presumably get wrong if you weren't steeped in African-American culture.
I so want to actually see this thing. I take it you don't have a copy or anything, right? I sure can't find it with a precursory Google search on the term, but just a few references to it.

I know I'll fail, but it still seems like it would be interesting to take that test.

Last edited by BigT; 06-22-2017 at 06:09 PM.
  #85  
Old 06-22-2017, 06:13 PM
Ludovic Ludovic is offline
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I wonder if there's an option called "SOUL? I intellectually know of this thing you people who identify with the African-American culture call "soul", but everything that I've heard that supposedly has it seems FAKE FAKE FAKE to me and mainly useful for getting into pants."
  #86  
Old 06-22-2017, 07:55 PM
Ludovic Ludovic is offline
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I didn't follow all the links but any Steely Dan references yet?
  #87  
Old 06-22-2017, 08:20 PM
Moriarty Moriarty is offline
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A few years ago, I was at a thanksgiving dinner at a cousin's house. I was watching football, and a black wide receiver dropped a pass. This old white guy next to me (I think he was a cousin's wife's dad) said to nobody in particular, "I bet he would have caught that if it was a watermelon." He thought it was a hilarious comment, since the stereotype is that Black Americans love watermelon.
  #88  
Old 06-22-2017, 09:25 PM
TokyoBayer TokyoBayer is online now
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My BIL is overtly racist. Although for some reason he claims to he's not. There are too many examples, some things include him working in the word "black" to describe people he dislike such as those at the Atlanta airports. Ever. single. time. He picked me up there, it would be a rant on the "make work for blacks" program is the reason that Atlanta airport employees are black. He's humor impaired so he didn't understand my mock outrage at the "make work for whites" program in Oslo.

I was ill and needed a to visit the ER. On the way, he suggest I let them know that I'm not one of the hordes of Mexican immigrants. Why? Are doctors going to treat me better because I've got more Northern European blood?

The final straw was on one rant where he told me the problem with America was that whites weren't having enough babies. As I reminded him, my children are only half white. I finally told my sister that I'm not comfortable having my children around him. That was only an excuse, really I'm just too tired of listening to him.
  #89  
Old 06-22-2017, 09:32 PM
TokyoBayer TokyoBayer is online now
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We grew up in what was then lily white east side of Salt Lake City. The first black girl I met was in high school. My mother would not allow anything racist in our household.

In contrast, my cousins were more typical and always were telling racist jokes. Looking back it was just something they said because everyone thought it was supposed to be funny. They didn't know any minorities either. I don't look back with fondness about that part of growing up in the 60s and 70s.

People complain about too much PC, but I remember where we came from.
  #90  
Old 06-22-2017, 11:56 PM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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Truth, TB. One of my best friends in high school was half black at an almost entirely white school. Somebody stole her agenda and returned it to her with a noose circling a date that said "Leave this school or this is the day you die, nigger."

That was 1997.
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  #91  
Old 06-23-2017, 09:18 PM
Johanna Johanna is offline
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I so want to actually see this thing. I take it you don't have a copy or anything, right? I sure can't find it with a precursory Google search on the term, but just a few references to it.

I know I'll fail, but it still seems like it would be interesting to take that test.
I linked to an extant version in post #63 above. Have at it! (The monetary values are from circa 1970.)
  #92  
Old 06-24-2017, 01:53 AM
Tranquilis Tranquilis is offline
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Not racism, per se, but certainly smelled like bigotry:

Last week, I was asked if I were Muslim - Specifically because of my beard (which I will admit is fairly epic).


I replied that I was a "Born Again French Lumberjack."
I expect he's still trying to figure that one out.
  #93  
Old 06-24-2017, 06:44 AM
Enuma Elish Enuma Elish is offline
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
So I'm on a crowded bus this morning listening to my McCartney and Wings collection, and the guy opposite me asks me what I'm listening to so I tell him.
His response? "I tried listening to the Beatles, but it was too much like jungle music to me". he didn't lower his voice or look around to see if there was anyone around that might find his remark insensitive-he just loudly offered up his racist comment is if it were perfectly acceptable for public consumption.
Are you absolutely certain he wasn't a fan of The Four Tops?

I grew up in Wisconsin, but 20+ years ago, I lived in Washington DC and surrounding areas. There was a crab restaurant on upper Wisconsin Avenue with a bar overhead. I was in the bar once (well, more than once - but this only happened once) and used a racial comment as a joke. (Sorry) The bartender shushed me and pointed toward the door/stairs. A number of -to me- normal looking black people were entering. A few hours later, after eating and having a few drinks, they left. The bartender came up to me and said: "Goddammit Yankee, you gotta be more careful about your talk when niggers come in!"

I have lived in Wisconsin for 20+ years and never heard anything like this.........
  #94  
Old 06-24-2017, 09:36 AM
E-DUB E-DUB is offline
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Nawth Chucka wrote: "Those of you who don't want to bother, it's a group of black men singing a song w/ the word Jungle in the title.
As to the point of their posting it, E-DUB will have to speak for themselves."

My point was that the gentleman in question may have thought that the Beatles sounded too much like this song, which he disliked. This song not only has the word jungle in the title, but has actual jungle sounds in the background. It also stands as an prime example of how black musicians had to, at one time, play into cultural stereotypes if they wished any success beyond their own community. I thought all that was fairly obvious.
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