Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 05-14-2012, 01:06 PM
Saint Cad Saint Cad is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: N of Denver & S of Sanity
Posts: 12,158
I am anti-illegal immigration. I believe that if we really wanted to take a stand against illegal immigration we would have the Army and aircraft drones patrol the border. Furthermore, I would deport any caught being in the country illegally to Chad or Guinea and charge the Mexican government the cost associated with the imprisonment and social services provided to illegal immigration. I don't equate racism to this position because I feel those snowbacks that cross over with their toques and non-Vermont maple syrup should be treated exactly the same way.

But let's assume for a second that all of the illegal aliens in Maricopa County are Hispanic. As a logic statement it is: All A are B. We get two fallacies out of this. For the pro-illegal alien side, they translate this as:
All A are B
Feelings against A means you have the same feelings towards B
Therefore if you are anti-A then you are anti-B (viz. racist)

Arpaio's fallacy is a little different and this is where he loses my support
All A are B
If you are B then there is a chance you are A (i.e. a variation of the contrapositive ~B > ~A)
Therefore if you are A then I assume you are B until you prove you are not.
Advertisements  
  #102  
Old 05-14-2012, 01:12 PM
Terr Terr is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Houston
Posts: 12,453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
I am not sure what case you are referencing but it seems you got your quote and facts a bit mixed up.
I am referencing the case from which I quoted "When she arrived home, they insisted that she stay in the car... After she tried to enter her home, officers took her to the ground, kneed her in the back and handcuffed her." You reference THAT quote when you said that it was not a traffic stop. So it seems you're the one that got it mixed up.
  #103  
Old 05-14-2012, 01:16 PM
bouv bouv is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: VT
Posts: 12,872
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terr View Post
I've had friends who had been detained and spent some hours in holding just for mouthing off to an officer during a traffic stop.
And you're ok with this?

There is a HUGE problem with police brutality, corrupt law enforcement, and just general abuse-of-power by cops in this country (not as bad as true police states or in many developing countries...but relative to other first world countries.)

The Maricopa County Sheriff's Office is the perfect example of everything wrong with law enforcement in the US. The idea of "shoot first, ask questions later," and "everyone is a potential criminal" and the entire "us vs them" attitude that's become so pervasive in LE is even worse under Sheriff Joe, and to make matters worse, there's the added racism towards Latinos and Hispanics. The idea that criminals have to be "punished" instead of rehabilitated. Prisons and jails like the one Sheriff Joe runs do nothing to help the underlying cause of crime.

Quote:
In 1998, Arpaio commissioned a study, by Arizona State University criminal justice professor Marie L. Griffin, to examine recidivism rates based on conditions of confinement. Comparing recidivism rates under Arpaio to those under his predecessor, the study found "there was no significant difference in recidivism observed between those offenders released in 1989-1990 and those released in 1994-1995."[73]
(Griffin, Mary L (2001). The Use of Force by Detention Officers. LFB Scholarly Publishing. p. 42. ISBN 1-931202-01-X.)

And then there's this:

Quote:
Family members of inmates who have died or been injured in jail custody have filed lawsuits against the sheriff’s office. Maricopa County has paid more than $43 million in settlement claims during Arpaio's tenure
From the Wikipedia page on the controversy surrounding MCSO. It's a Wikipedia page, yes, but it has cites for the information regarding the wrongful deaths of several inmates.

And not all of the wrongful deaths get "justice" (If you call simply paying a settlement and having no one actually punished justice...) There's the case of Marcia Powell. She died from heat stroke after being left in a metal box in the Arizona heat for four hours. The temperature that day reached 107...God only knows how hot it was in that "cage." Policy was to limit inmates to "only" two hours in there, but I can't see how any sane, rational person can see that as anything but cruel and unusual punishment. Especially when you consider she wasn't serving time for murder, assault, or any kind of violent crime...it was prostitution. Sickening.
  #104  
Old 05-14-2012, 01:22 PM
tomndebb tomndebb is offline
Mod Rocker
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: N E Ohio
Posts: 40,324
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lust4Life View Post
Sorry to double post but I missed this post earlier, did you read my post upthread about police in other countries profiling English football supporters ?

And acting accordingly ?

In case I didn't make myself clear, I completely and totally agree with their actions, as do most Brits including British police forces, who actually assist them in their home cities.
So what? They are not being profiled according to their "race," despite how you ty to change the topic. They are profiled on their behavior. The typical British tourist or businessperson who happened to be in those cities at the same time are not going to be herded into a crowd of football enthusiasts and forced to watch a game in one corner of the bleachers when they had an appointment to make a sale or plans to visit a museum.

Rather, crowds of Brit football fans, wearing team colors, hanging out together, shouting team slogans, and heading to varius stadia in a group are going to attract attention by their behavior and their behavior is going to be corralled.

Since I explicitly noted that behavior is a legitimate means of profiling, your non sequitur with it false claim of racial profiling is irrelevant to this discussion.

Last edited by tomndebb; 05-14-2012 at 01:23 PM.
  #105  
Old 05-14-2012, 01:24 PM
Terr Terr is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Houston
Posts: 12,453
Quote:
Originally Posted by bouv View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by terr
I've had friends who had been detained and spent some hours in holding just for mouthing off to an officer during a traffic stop.
And you're ok with this?

There is a HUGE problem with police brutality, corrupt law enforcement, and just general abuse-of-power by cops in this country (not as bad as true police states or in many developing countries...but relative to other first world countries.)
Yes, I am ok with this. And, no, I don't see it as "police brutality, corrupt law enforcement or abuse-of-power". A few hours in the clink is an appropriate punishment for extreme stupidity. In fact, after the fact, that's how my friends viewed it as well.

Last edited by Terr; 05-14-2012 at 01:25 PM.
  #106  
Old 05-14-2012, 01:32 PM
BobLibDem BobLibDem is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Home 07 NCAA HockeyChamps
Posts: 19,133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terr View Post
Yes, I am ok with this. And, no, I don't see it as "police brutality, corrupt law enforcement or abuse-of-power". A few hours in the clink is an appropriate punishment for extreme stupidity. In fact, after the fact, that's how my friends viewed it as well.
So the First Amendment doesn't mean squat to you? We're all supposed to kneel in deference to cops? What harm is done to society by mouthing off to a cop?
  #107  
Old 05-14-2012, 01:43 PM
Terr Terr is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Houston
Posts: 12,453
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobLibDem View Post
So the First Amendment doesn't mean squat to you? We're all supposed to kneel in deference to cops? What harm is done to society by mouthing off to a cop?
I am missing the First Amendment connection here. Is the traffic cop a federal official, and was the detention I described the result of Congress making some law abridging freedom of speech?

I am not a huge fan of cops, especially those that give out speeding tickets. I don't think anyone is. But it is a tough and very dangerous job and unfortunately many cops die while doing it. Making this job needlessly harder for them is stupid and if you spend a few hours in holding for it, I find that an appropriate punishment.
  #108  
Old 05-14-2012, 01:52 PM
BobLibDem BobLibDem is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Home 07 NCAA HockeyChamps
Posts: 19,133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terr View Post
I am missing the First Amendment connection here.
I have a First Amendment right to free speech. Congress nor any governmental body or offical may abridge it.
  #109  
Old 05-14-2012, 01:57 PM
dngnb8 dngnb8 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 829
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terr View Post
Yes, I am ok with this. And, no, I don't see it as "police brutality, corrupt law enforcement or abuse-of-power". A few hours in the clink is an appropriate punishment for extreme stupidity. In fact, after the fact, that's how my friends viewed it as well.

Who defines stupidity?

The problem with this attitude is when someone determines youre no longer doing something smart, deems it stupid, and hauls you in.
  #110  
Old 05-14-2012, 02:16 PM
Terr Terr is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Houston
Posts: 12,453
Quote:
Originally Posted by dngnb8 View Post
Who defines stupidity?
In this case, it was I, the police officer, and, after the fact, the mouther-off-er.
  #111  
Old 05-14-2012, 02:20 PM
Typo Negative Typo Negative is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: 7th Level of Hell, Ca
Posts: 16,241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terr View Post
How was it not? She was in her car and was stopped for "non-functioning license plate light."
What you seem to be missing is the allegation that she was not, in fact, stopped for a violation. She was stopped for being hispanic. The allegation is that the traffic stop is a pretense to harrass her, that had she been a white woman, she would not have been stopped at all.

Quote:
She was cited for failure to provide identification, which was later changed to failure to provide proof of insurance. The issue was resolved when the woman proved she had insurance to a court.
They had no reason to stop her, other than her race.
  #112  
Old 05-14-2012, 02:22 PM
Terr Terr is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Houston
Posts: 12,453
Quote:
Originally Posted by spooje View Post
What you seem to be missing is the allegation that she was not, in fact, stopped for a violation. She was stopped for being hispanic. The allegation is that the traffic stop is a pretense to harrass her, that had she been a white woman, she would not have been stopped at all.

They had no reason to stop her, other than her race.
... and what kind of proof of that allegation is there?

And no, there was no such allegation made in the post that I was responding to originally or afterwards. Can you point it out in case I missed it?
  #113  
Old 05-14-2012, 02:29 PM
Bricker Bricker is offline
And Full Contact Origami
SDSAB
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 54,834
Quote:
Originally Posted by bouv View Post
And not all of the wrongful deaths get "justice" (If you call simply paying a settlement and having no one actually punished justice...) There's the case of Marcia Powell. She died from heat stroke after being left in a metal box in the Arizona heat for four hours. The temperature that day reached 107...God only knows how hot it was in that "cage." Policy was to limit inmates to "only" two hours in there, but I can't see how any sane, rational person can see that as anything but cruel and unusual punishment. Especially when you consider she wasn't serving time for murder, assault, or any kind of violent crime...it was prostitution. Sickening.
What does this have to do with Arapio?
  #114  
Old 05-14-2012, 04:04 PM
Whack-a-Mole Whack-a-Mole is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Posts: 18,730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terr View Post
I am referencing the case from which I quoted "When she arrived home, they insisted that she stay in the car... After she tried to enter her home, officers took her to the ground, kneed her in the back and handcuffed her." You reference THAT quote when you said that it was not a traffic stop. So it seems you're the one that got it mixed up.
I believe you but I am missing it.

Do you have a link?
  #115  
Old 05-14-2012, 04:10 PM
dngnb8 dngnb8 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 829
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terr View Post
In this case, it was I, the police officer, and, after the fact, the mouther-off-er.
In another case, what if the police officer defines an event as stupid, and you disagree, and yet, youre incarcerated?
  #116  
Old 05-14-2012, 04:41 PM
gamerunknown gamerunknown is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,291
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole
Being a vagrant is not an immutable trait.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anatole France
The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich and the poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.
In translation.
  #117  
Old 05-14-2012, 04:42 PM
Bricker Bricker is offline
And Full Contact Origami
SDSAB
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 54,834
Quote:
Originally Posted by spooje View Post
What you seem to be missing is the allegation that she was not, in fact, stopped for a violation. She was stopped for being hispanic. The allegation is that the traffic stop is a pretense to harrass her, that had she been a white woman, she would not have been stopped at all.


They had no reason to stop her, other than her race.
I don't regard this as a strong claim.

The strong claim is the one where the officers lied about the existence of probable cause.

Pretextual stops in other contexts are legal. If an officer sees you with a drug dealer, he is absolutely allowed to pull you over for a bad tailight, even if he has no interest in tail light enforcement.

But... it has to be true that your tail light was bad. In the allegation I mentioned above, the facts supporting probable cause were fabricated.
__________________
It was always the Doctor and Sarah.
  #118  
Old 05-14-2012, 04:43 PM
Bricker Bricker is offline
And Full Contact Origami
SDSAB
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 54,834
Quote:
Originally Posted by gamerunknown View Post
In translation.
So what?

Yes, the law forbids things which impact the poor more than the rich. So what?
__________________
It was always the Doctor and Sarah.
  #119  
Old 05-14-2012, 05:35 PM
The Tao's Revenge The Tao's Revenge is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 5,194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bricker View Post
So what?

Yes, the law forbids things which impact the poor more than the rich. So what?
The point of the quote, I believe, is that a law can target a certain group unfairly, under the guise of fairness, be simply aiming it only at things that apply to the target group. Say you had beef with the Amish and outlawed beards. Hey the beard law applies to man, woman, and child alike, right? Totally fair, yeah?

The the difference between the Amish, Hispanics, and vagrants goes back to legalistic definitions. The first two are protected, the last isn't. Though, morally, a just society should help someone in bad times back on their feet.

I'm not sure what it has to do with this thread though. I think most would agree an innocent person being targeted because some tin star tyrant thinks they look too brown doesn't even have the facade of fairness.

Last edited by The Tao's Revenge; 05-14-2012 at 05:39 PM.
  #120  
Old 05-14-2012, 05:37 PM
Terr Terr is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Houston
Posts: 12,453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
I believe you but I am missing it.

Do you have a link?
Post #98.
  #121  
Old 05-14-2012, 06:26 PM
BrainGlutton BrainGlutton is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 78,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by gamerunknown View Post
What would common sense tell you when looking for terrorists at an Israeli airport?
That there are too many Arabs or Arabic-looking Jews there to profile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gamerunknown View Post
What occurred on 30th of May 1972?
And then there's that . . .

Last edited by BrainGlutton; 05-14-2012 at 06:30 PM.
  #122  
Old 05-14-2012, 06:31 PM
BrainGlutton BrainGlutton is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 78,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bricker View Post
You're perfectly free to argue that such tactics mnake sense.

However, the question here seems to be: are such tactics legal?
Not at all. This thread is open for defense (and attack) of Arpaio's (alleged) actions on any terms, legal, political, moral or social.

Last edited by BrainGlutton; 05-14-2012 at 06:32 PM.
  #123  
Old 05-14-2012, 06:37 PM
BrainGlutton BrainGlutton is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 78,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by dngnb8 View Post
Is bigotry his motive? It wouldnt surprise me, but it isnt a stretch to say that the greater majority of our illegals are probably Hispanic. That isnt racism, that is statistics.
25.8% of Arizonans are of Mexican ancestry. That is also statistics. Any brown face you see there is more likely than not a native-born citizen's.
  #124  
Old 05-14-2012, 06:40 PM
BrainGlutton BrainGlutton is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 78,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by bouv View Post
The Maricopa County Sheriff's Office is the perfect example of everything wrong with law enforcement in the US. The idea of "shoot first, ask questions later," and "everyone is a potential criminal" and the entire "us vs them" attitude that's become so pervasive in LE . . .
Sorry, "LE"?
  #125  
Old 05-14-2012, 07:28 PM
Bricker Bricker is offline
And Full Contact Origami
SDSAB
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 54,834
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrainGlutton View Post
Not at all. This thread is open for defense (and attack) of Arpaio's (alleged) actions on any terms, legal, political, moral or social.
Fair enough -- take it away. My attack on Arapio is based on the illegal actions alleged.
__________________
It was always the Doctor and Sarah.
  #126  
Old 05-14-2012, 07:33 PM
Whack-a-Mole Whack-a-Mole is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Posts: 18,730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terr View Post
Post #98.
Huh?

You quoted the woman and the car things as:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terr View Post
I mean: "When she arrived home, they insisted that she stay in the car... After she tried to enter her home, officers took her to the ground, kneed her in the back and handcuffed her."
I quoted what I think you are referencing as:
Quote:
The lawsuit recounts how a Latina woman who was five-months pregnant and a U.S. citizen was stopped as she pulled into the driveway. "After she exited her car, the officer then insisted that she sit on the hood of the car. When she refused, the officer grabbed her arms, puled them behind her back, and slammed her, stomach first, into the vehicle three times. He then dragged her to the patrol car and shoved her into the backseat," reads the complaint.

SOURCE: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...l?ref=politics
See the difference?

I am asking for the cite to your quote. Mine is cited.

Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 05-14-2012 at 07:34 PM.
  #127  
Old 05-14-2012, 07:37 PM
Ludovic Ludovic is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: America's Wing
Posts: 26,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrainGlutton View Post
Sorry, "LE"?
Lawful Evil.
  #128  
Old 05-14-2012, 08:00 PM
Terr Terr is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Houston
Posts: 12,453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
Huh?

You quoted the woman and the car things as:


I quoted what I think you are referencing as:


See the difference?

I am asking for the cite to your quote. Mine is cited.
The cite is the same as yours. Do an in-page search.
  #129  
Old 05-14-2012, 08:26 PM
Whack-a-Mole Whack-a-Mole is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Posts: 18,730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terr View Post
The cite is the same as yours. Do an in-page search.
Ah...I see. I saw the first one and its similarity made me think that was the same one and you had a different source. My bad...

I will note in your case the charges against her were dismissed so apparently the court didn't think she had committed a crime.

Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 05-14-2012 at 08:27 PM.
  #130  
Old 05-14-2012, 08:34 PM
Terr Terr is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Houston
Posts: 12,453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
Ah...I see. I saw the first one and its similarity made me think that was the same one and you had a different source. My bad...

I will note in your case the charges against her were dismissed so apparently the court didn't think she had committed a crime.
Of course not. But disobeying a traffic cop's request to stay in your car during a stop will get you cuffed and detained. Has nothing to do with her being a "Latina".
  #131  
Old 05-14-2012, 09:08 PM
Whack-a-Mole Whack-a-Mole is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Posts: 18,730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terr View Post
Of course not. But disobeying a traffic cop's request to stay in your car during a stop will get you cuffed and detained. Has nothing to do with her being a "Latina".
Are you sure?

The issue here then seems to me to be:

1) What is the racial breakdown of people pulled over for burnt out license plate lights? It should be roughly equivalent to the racial makeup of the population they serve (unless you want to suggest white people don't have burnt out license plate lights).

2) When someone disobeys an officer for such a trivial infraction and in a trivial way (i.e. license plate light and not a murder suspect and not staying in the car when told to) do they tackle everyone and knee them in the back and handcuff them? Or are they particularly rough with Latinos?

I do not know the answer to that but the government is alleging a pattern of bias here so I suspect the Latinos are getting rougher treatment at the hands of the police, on a regular and ongoing basis, than white people are.

I am certain where I grew up if my mom (white woman) did the same she would not have been tackled, kneed in the back and handcuffed. Sure they may well still have arrested her but not resorted to this level of force for a burnt out plate light and refusing to stay in the car.

Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 05-14-2012 at 09:10 PM.
  #132  
Old 05-14-2012, 09:17 PM
zpepelepu zpepelepu is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 14
Ignorance of a foreign language

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrainGlutton View Post
Babelfish translates that as:

"Surely that if. It is that, with this so rechulado world, must look for the worthy work but, no? Much taste conocerte, PPP."

Hard to dispute.
It is that kind of debilidad that shows your weakness--I don't need and would never rely on Babelfish like you. Obviously, fluency isn't your strength. Yo solo estudie el castellano avanzado en Purdue University, nada mas.
  #133  
Old 05-14-2012, 09:39 PM
tomndebb tomndebb is offline
Mod Rocker
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: N E Ohio
Posts: 40,324
Moderating

Quote:
Originally Posted by zpepelepu View Post
It is that kind of debilidad that shows your weakness--I don't need and would never rely on Babelfish like you. Obviously, fluency isn't your strength. Yo solo estudie el castellano avanzado en Purdue University, nada mas.
Obviously, following rules is not your strength. You have already been told that you are to post in English, here. If you continue to ignore Moderator instructions, you will not be posting here much longer, regardless how "advanced" your foreign language classes might have been.

[ /Moderating ]
  #134  
Old 05-14-2012, 10:17 PM
The Tao's Revenge The Tao's Revenge is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 5,194
Quote:
Originally Posted by zpepelepu View Post
Yo solo estudie el castellano avanzado en Purdue University, nada mas.
And I only studied intro Spanish at a community college. No nos divertiste (for my fellow anglophones what I'm telling him means "you did not amuse us")
  #135  
Old 05-14-2012, 10:25 PM
florez florez is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Alaska
Posts: 840
Quote:
Originally Posted by zpepelepu View Post
Arpaio attempts to uphold/enforce the law.
.
Whatever Spanish you learned, empathy with the Spanish speaking people is not your strength.
  #136  
Old 05-14-2012, 10:30 PM
Mosier Mosier is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Vegas
Posts: 7,545
Quote:
Originally Posted by zpepelepu View Post
It is that kind of debilidad that shows your weakness--I don't need and would never rely on Babelfish like you. Obviously, fluency isn't your strength. Yo solo estudie el castellano avanzado en Purdue University, nada mas.
Who the hell is this guy?
  #137  
Old 05-14-2012, 10:34 PM
The Tao's Revenge The Tao's Revenge is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 5,194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
Are you sure?

The issue here then seems to me to be:

1) What is the racial breakdown of people pulled over for burnt out license plate lights? It should be roughly equivalent to the racial makeup of the population they serve (unless you want to suggest white people don't have burnt out license plate lights).

2) When someone disobeys an officer for such a trivial infraction and in a trivial way (i.e. license plate light and not a murder suspect and not staying in the car when told to) do they tackle everyone and knee them in the back and handcuff them? Or are they particularly rough with Latinos?

I do not know the answer to that but the government is alleging a pattern of bias here so I suspect the Latinos are getting rougher treatment at the hands of the police, on a regular and ongoing basis, than white people are.

I am certain where I grew up if my mom (white woman) did the same she would not have been tackled, kneed in the back and handcuffed. Sure they may well still have arrested her but not resorted to this level of force for a burnt out plate light and refusing to stay in the car.
Nail on the effen head. You do not man handle a pregnant woman like that without very good cause. abdominal trauma be can very dangerous to the fetus.

Last edited by The Tao's Revenge; 05-14-2012 at 10:35 PM.
  #138  
Old 05-14-2012, 10:42 PM
BrainGlutton BrainGlutton is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 78,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosier View Post
Who the hell is this guy?
One you should enjoy quickly before he's gone, is my guess.
  #139  
Old 05-14-2012, 10:59 PM
Terr Terr is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Houston
Posts: 12,453
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tao's Revenge View Post
Nail on the effen head. You do not man handle a pregnant woman like that without very good cause. abdominal trauma be can very dangerous to the fetus.
Since there was no pregnant woman involved in the case he was referring to, I'd say you missed the "effen head" of the nail by about a mile.
  #140  
Old 05-14-2012, 11:15 PM
Snowboarder Bo Snowboarder Bo is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 20,037
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lust4Life View Post
In the U.K. the police are regulated so as to record everyone that they pull over in the street for randoming questioning, and they have to ensure that the same number of ethnicities are questioned as well to ensure no racial bias.

So we had the ridiculous situation that when the I.R.A. were committing atrocities in London, the police had to waste valuable time and money questioning Asians, West Indians etc. to make sure that the quotas were similar in number.
Cite for it being UK police regulations that they "have to ensure that the same number of ethnicities are questioned as well to ensure no racial bias"?

Cite for "the police had to waste valuable time and money questioning Asians, West Indians etc. to make sure that the quotas were similar in number" regarding IRA violence in London?
  #141  
Old 05-14-2012, 11:58 PM
The Tao's Revenge The Tao's Revenge is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 5,194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terr View Post
Since there was no pregnant woman involved in the case he was referring to, I'd say you missed the "effen head" of the nail by about a mile.
Oh I did get them mixed. The pregnant woman, per the cite quote: "
The lawsuit recounts how a Latina woman who was five-months pregnant and a U.S. citizen was stopped as she pulled into the driveway. "After she exited her car, the officer then insisted that she sit on the hood of the car. When she refused, the officer grabbed her arms, puled them behind her back, and slammed her, stomach first, into the vehicle three times".

He slammed her on the car stomach first three times. Pregnant woman, slammed on the car stomach first three times. Let that sink in. Her crime: failure to have ID or insurance. The cops couldn't get their story straight on what she did wrong.
  #142  
Old 05-14-2012, 11:59 PM
BrainGlutton BrainGlutton is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 78,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tao's Revenge View Post
Oh I did get them mixed. The pregnant woman, per the cite quote: "
The lawsuit recounts how a Latina woman who was five-months pregnant and a U.S. citizen was stopped as she pulled into the driveway. "After she exited her car, the officer then insisted that she sit on the hood of the car. When she refused, the officer grabbed her arms, puled them behind her back, and slammed her, stomach first, into the vehicle three times".

He slammed her on the car stomach first three times. Pregnant woman, slammed on the car stomach first three times. Let that sink in. Her crime: failure to have ID or insurance. The cops couldn't get their story straight on what she did wrong.
Suspicion of intention to breed?
  #143  
Old 05-15-2012, 08:50 AM
Bricker Bricker is offline
And Full Contact Origami
SDSAB
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 54,834
Quote:
Originally Posted by bouv View Post
There's the case of Marcia Powell. She died from heat stroke after being left in a metal box in the Arizona heat for four hours. The temperature that day reached 107...God only knows how hot it was in that "cage." Policy was to limit inmates to "only" two hours in there, but I can't see how any sane, rational person can see that as anything but cruel and unusual punishment. Especially when you consider she wasn't serving time for murder, assault, or any kind of violent crime...it was prostitution. Sickening.
Again, since this question seems to have gotten lost -- what does this have to do with Sheriff Arapio?
  #144  
Old 05-15-2012, 08:56 AM
dngnb8 dngnb8 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 829
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrainGlutton View Post
25.8% of Arizonans are of Mexican ancestry. That is also statistics. Any brown face you see there is more likely than not a native-born citizen's.
So you know the ratio of legal to illegal here?

Cite please.
  #145  
Old 05-15-2012, 09:03 AM
dngnb8 dngnb8 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 829
Heck I will do it

http://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/arizona.html

of the 6.9 mil, you say 26% is Hispanic, that is 1,794,000

According to the link, 490,000 illegal immigrants reside in AZ.

27%

That means 1 out of 4 of those people are probably illegal

Additionally, 19% of our felonious crimes are from Illegals. How about social service costs?

AZs budget is hugely impacted by the costs of illegal immigration. You will find many of the hispanic culture support Joe because they are tired of the bigotry they get because of Illegals. Additionally, many resent illegals for not going through what they went through to get citizenship.

At the risk of a pun, the issue isnt black and white
__________________
The Sarchasm -
The gorge between my witty comment and you, who doesn't get it.

Last edited by dngnb8; 05-15-2012 at 09:06 AM.
  #146  
Old 05-15-2012, 10:41 AM
tomndebb tomndebb is offline
Mod Rocker
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: N E Ohio
Posts: 40,324
Quote:
Originally Posted by dngnb8 View Post
Heck I will do it

http://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/arizona.html

of the 6.9 mil, you say 26% is Hispanic, that is 1,794,000

According to the link, 490,000 illegal immigrants reside in AZ.

27%

That means 1 out of 4 of those people are probably illegal
Not really. Your link shows FAIR, (a group notably hostile to all immigration that uses illegal immigration as a red flag to call attention to themslves and occasionally wanders away from facts), claims 490,000, but the USCIS/DHS, (the government immigration folks), only estimate 280,000--a very large number, but much smaller than your claim.

So, 27% is now down to 15% and you are claiming that it is fine for cops to detain anyone with a certain appearance, based solely on their appearance, on the off chance that one in six of them might be an illegal alien. That should do wonderful things to encourage the 1,514,000 citizens who are being targeted for harrassment to support the police and other governmental agencies. (And that is not even including the 286,000 Indians who are not recorded as Hispanic in the census, but are probably treated as Hispanic by the typical white guy witha badge.)
  #147  
Old 05-15-2012, 10:49 AM
bouv bouv is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: VT
Posts: 12,872
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bricker View Post
What does this have to do with Arapio?
Opps, I though the story took place in the Maricopa County Jail, but it seems it was the state prison that just happens to be in Maricopa County.

You're right, the Sheriff's Office has nothing to do with that prison or this incident. I apologize for the mistake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrainGlutton View Post
Sorry, "LE"?
Law Enforcement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terr View Post
But it is a tough and very dangerous job and unfortunately many cops die while doing it.
Yeah, real dangerous...right behind truck and taxi drivers, commercial fisherman, loggers, roofers/construction workers, miners, aircraft pilots, farmers, steel workers, industrial maintenance workers, and garbage-men.

The average rate of "on the job" death for men in the US (I'm using men since law enforcement personnel are overwhelmingly male,) is 6.9 per 100,000...police have a rate of 16.9 per 100,000. Almost half of those deaths are the result of traffic fatalities (however, it's hard to find data on whether or not they were traffic fatalities that occurred from routine patrolling, or in some sort of pursuit of a suspect.)

So while it certainly is more dangerous than most jobs, it's not nearly as dangerous as the cops would want us to think. And they use that perceived, heightened danger to get larger SWAT teams, assault rifles, and military-grade equipment that, quite frankly, most of them are not properly trained to use.

And since this thread IS about Sheriff Joe and his department, I'll use them as an example.
Quote:
The most prudent, cautious and least costly way to pick up Kush would have involved only a handful of officers. That wouldn't have been anywhere near as much fun as whipping out the big assault rifles and putting on all that manly body armor.

And MCSO wouldn't get to deploy Arpaio's beloved armored personnel carrier if they opted for the low-key approach to community policing. Lucky the damn tank didn't run over some kids playing in the street!
.
.
.
The armored personnel carrier was pulled back from the house as the fire raged. But a deputy apparently failed to set the brakes on the heavy vehicle and it began rolling down a hill and smashed into a parked car.
If you don't want to read the whole thing:
A man's house was burnt to the ground by the MCSO, the APC ran into a parked car because the deputy didn't know how to properly operate it, and the suspects dog was killed by the MCSO.

Last edited by bouv; 05-15-2012 at 10:53 AM.
  #148  
Old 05-15-2012, 10:51 AM
Terr Terr is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Houston
Posts: 12,453
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomndebb View Post
Not really. Your link shows FAIR, (a group notably hostile to all immigration that uses illegal immigration as a red flag to call attention to themslves and occasionally wanders away from facts), claims 490,000, but the USCIS/DHS, (the government immigration folks), only estimate 280,000--a very large number, but much smaller than your claim.
The US Census Bureau estimates 460K in 2009. http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/...gal-immigrants

That's a drop from estimated 560K in 2008.
  #149  
Old 05-15-2012, 11:04 AM
Whack-a-Mole Whack-a-Mole is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Posts: 18,730
Quote:
Originally Posted by dngnb8 View Post
AZs budget is hugely impacted by the costs of illegal immigration.
Cite?

We've done this before and I'll post it again.

Illegal immigrants are a net benefit to the US. However, they are a net drag on a few states such as California (mainly via costs associated with education of their children).

Illegal immigrants DO pay taxes. Thing is they cannot get many of the benefits (such as Social Security) that paying taxes gets a US citizen. So, they put money in and do not take it out.

I am not sure how Arizona rates in this and it would not surprise me that Arizona is among the ones that loses money overall. Still, can you cite the net effect to the Arizona economy?

Quote:
Over the past two decades, most efforts to estimate the fiscal impact of immigration in the United States have concluded that, in aggregate and over the long term, tax revenues of all types generated by immigrants—both legal and unauthorized—exceed the cost of the services they use.1, 2 Generally, such estimates include revenues and spending at the federal, state, and local levels.3 However, many estimates also show that the cost of providing public services to unauthorized immigrants at the state and local levels exceeds what that population pays in state and local taxes. It is important to note, though, that currently available estimates have significant limitations; therefore, using them to determine an aggregate effect across all states would be difficult and prone to considerable error.

SOURCE: The Impact of Unauthorized Immigrants on the Budgets of State and Local Governments -- Congressional Budget Office (PDF - page 9)


You also have a very real negative impact on some industries when cracking down on illegal immigrants. From a recent NYT article:

Quote:
Some Ala. Farmers Cut Back Crops, Citing Crackdown

Some Alabama farmers say they are planting less produce rather than risk having tomatoes and other crops rot in the fields a second straight year because of labor shortages linked to the state's crackdown on illegal immigration.

Keith Dickie said he and other growers in the heart of Alabama's tomato country didn't have any choice but to reduce acreage amid fears there won't be enough workers to pick the delicate fruit.

Some farmers lacked enough hands to harvest crops because immigrants fled the state after Gov. Robert Bentley signed the immigration law last fall, and some told The Associated Press they fear the same thing could happen this year.

SOURCE: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2012...2&ref=news

Quote:
Originally Posted by dngnb8 View Post
You will find many of the hispanic culture support Joe because they are tired of the bigotry they get because of Illegals. Additionally, many resent illegals for not going through what they went through to get citizenship.
This reminds me of the old joke that the definition of an environmentalist is someone who already has a house in the woods.

Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 05-15-2012 at 11:05 AM.
  #150  
Old 05-15-2012, 11:41 AM
dngnb8 dngnb8 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 829
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
Cite?

We've done this before and I'll post it again.

Illegal immigrants are a net benefit to the US. However, they are a net drag on a few states such as California (mainly via costs associated with education of their children).
I already linked the cite

Quote:
Illegal immigrants DO pay taxes. Thing is they cannot get many of the benefits (such as Social Security) that paying taxes gets a US citizen. So, they put money in and do not take it out.
Not wholly true. Many of our illegals dont pay income taxes. They do pay into SS, but many of those SS are through Identity Theft. Give you a guess who is among the leaders the nation in ID Theft.

Quote:
I am not sure how Arizona rates in this and it would not surprise me that Arizona is among the ones that loses money overall. Still, can you cite the net effect to the Arizona economy?
The link addresses it a bit but here is a snip

<snip>:According to the Arizona Hospital and Healthcare association, providing care to illegal immigrants costs Arizona hospitals approximately $150 million annually. At least one hospital in Arizona has filed for bankruptcy and is in danger of closing due to uncompensated care for undocumented immigrants. As a solution to the millions of dollars these facilities are uncompensated for hospital administrators of the University Medical Center in Tucson Arizona, are reporting uninsured immigrants who do not pay their medical bills to immigration officials. In one four-month period in 2003, UMC incurred $3.3 million in immigrants’ unpaid bills. At least three Arizona hospitals are sending bill collectors into Mexico to try to obtain payments.</snip>

Quote:
You also have a very real negative impact on some industries when cracking down on illegal immigrants
I agree here. Many here say without this workforce, the employers would have to pay residents, and raise their rates. This would grossly increase the cost of what they sell (Believe it or not, we have a decent farming community here).

Frankly, the lazy American wont work in the fields because the work is far too difficult physically.

Last edited by dngnb8; 05-15-2012 at 11:42 AM.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:06 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@chicagoreader.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Publishers - interested in subscribing to the Straight Dope?
Write to: sdsubscriptions@chicagoreader.com.

Copyright © 2017 Sun-Times Media, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017