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  #101  
Old 03-21-2016, 06:37 PM
Monty Monty is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XT View Post
You seriously believe that Lil' Kimmy V2.0 hit 18 holes in one the first time he played golf or that men around the world dress up as he does because he's revered around the globe? Seriously, man...they make up stuff every day out of whole cloth. Nearly everything they say is a lie. While only, say 70-80% of what comes out of Chinese state run media is bullshit, it's like 99.9999998% in North Korea.
I believe Little Fatty Junior (as many Chinese people (not the Chinese government) call him) hit those holes in one as much as I believe Warmbier stole that banner.
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  #102  
Old 03-21-2016, 09:36 PM
XT XT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty View Post
I believe Little Fatty Junior (as many Chinese people (not the Chinese government) call him) hit those holes in one as much as I believe Warmbier stole that banner.
Same here.

It's a bit chilling to see the big lie in action. People in this thread (well, those who aren't deluded) know...they KNOW...that North Korea lies. Constantly. They have been a regime that has been literally built around lies, have lied for decades to the world and to their own people. Yet this time they must be telling the truth because...preconceptions! Annoying man child westerner! Must just be a coincidence in the timing here! I mean, he confessed before the trial, right? And everyone knows that you can never get a confession out of an innocent man! Got to be true. Just this time though. Their constant stream of lies for decades pretty much proves that this time (and those other times they caught westerners and insurgents red handed...er, would it be blue handed?) they are telling the truth.



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  #103  
Old 05-03-2016, 10:06 PM
Siam Sam Siam Sam is offline
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Regarding the notion that these detainees never really see the inside of a labor camp, Kenneth Bae says otherwise.
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  #104  
Old 05-06-2016, 04:11 PM
Martin Hyde Martin Hyde is offline
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Originally Posted by Siam Sam View Post
Regarding the notion that these detainees never really see the inside of a labor camp, Kenneth Bae says otherwise.
I actually already covered that specifically early in the thread:

Quote:
I believe Bae is also the only American citizen to actually be sent to a labor camp, albeit he was sent to a special prison where he worked on a farm in conditions significantly nicer than the "typical" North Korean prison camps that most of the horror stories come from. So he was sent to more of a specialized facility designed for more light punishments (I'm not sure who the North Koreans normally send there, maybe persons who are connected well enough that it's decided they shouldn't be sent to the "bad" camps, or perhaps the facility was built solely for Bae, who knows.)
Based on the reported treatment of the other 11 people detained in NK since 1996 Bae was the only one who was really put to hard labor--and he was not put in a normal labor camp where he had any interaction with North Korean prisoners. He was basically in a facility solely for himself.
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  #105  
Old 05-07-2016, 02:58 AM
Siam Sam Siam Sam is offline
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Missed that earlier. Thanks.
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  #106  
Old 05-17-2016, 08:24 AM
Elendil's Heir Elendil's Heir is offline
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Originally Posted by Elendil's Heir View Post
Yeah, if I were SECSTATE I would give serious thought to prohibiting all U.S. citizen travel to NK.
The State Department hasn't quite gone that far yet, but....: http://www.aol.com/article/2016/05/1...ly-h/21378344/
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  #107  
Old 05-21-2016, 01:30 PM
Kimera757 Kimera757 is offline
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Originally Posted by Dinsdale View Post
I'm generally extremely dubious of our national interest in going to any lengths to repatriate Americans who voluntary go to dangerous places. I'd be happy if the strongest State Department warnings essentially said, "Travel here and you're on your own, Bucko!"

Unless there is some huge as yet unseen factor, such as this guy being a CIA agent, he pushes the furthest end of the curve. He oughtn't have gone there, and if he chose to, he oughtn't have done something so stupid. Sucks to be him. Not one scintilla of American attention or interest ought to be committed to earning his release. The only appropriate response ought to be to publicize his case to inform potential travelers, "Don't be like this idiot!"
I very strongly agree with this statement, and wonder about people visiting other dangerous countries as well.

In 2007, a group of South Korean missionaries traveled to Afghanistan. Before they went some of them actually posed in a picture at the airport under a sign saying that travel to Afghanistan was dangerous. They were captured and two of them were executed. South Korea had to pull their (small number of non-combat) troops out of the country to get the rest of them released.

I'm from Canada. Three Canadians have been kidnapped in Afghanistan so far and two released (one had been held for five years). I vaguely recall reading about a Canadian who had been executed there recently but I couldn't find that on Wikipedia or Google.

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Originally Posted by Monty View Post
For those of you calling Warmbier an idiot, why are you calling him that? Is it just because he took a trip to North Korea or because you believe he actually did what the Norks accuse him of doing? If it's the latter, why would you believe the Norks?
The former. The quote "no sentient person goes to the border of Iran" really suits this situation, just change the name of the country.
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  #108  
Old 05-21-2016, 09:46 PM
Siam Sam Siam Sam is offline
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Originally Posted by Kimera757 View Post
I vaguely recall reading about a Canadian who had been executed there recently but I couldn't find that on Wikipedia or Google.
I believe a kidnapped Canadian was executed a few weeks ago in the Philippines. Perhaps he's the one you're thinking of. But overall, I would not consider the Philippines a dangerous place to go. Certainly not in the same league as Afghanistan.

Last edited by Siam Sam; 05-21-2016 at 09:47 PM..
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  #109  
Old 05-22-2016, 02:16 AM
Monty Monty is offline
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Originally Posted by Kimera757 View Post
I very strongly agree with this statement, and wonder about people visiting other dangerous countries as well.
If you agree with that posting, then you accept North Korea's narrative of the event, an event which is almost 100% certainly a thing that did not happen at all. What did happen, obviously, is that Warmbier has been detained by the NK government.

Quote:
In 2007, a group of South Korean missionaries traveled to Afghanistan. Before they went some of them actually posed in a picture at the airport under a sign saying that travel to Afghanistan was dangerous. They were captured and two of them were executed. South Korea had to pull their (small number of non-combat) troops out of the country to get the rest of them released.
North Korea is not Afghanistan. The dangers associated with each one are quite different. For North Korea, the danger is being detained, fed, treated with what medical care NK can provide, and then released when and if the hostage's own government capitulates to NK on some point absolutely unconnected with the hostage. In Afghanistan, the danger was in being kidnapped and killed by a terrorist organization. Granted, the NK government itself is essentially a terrorist organization but they don't shoot up random foreigners visiting their country. What NK does, however, do is detain and bargain. Well, there was the one instance in which a NK soldier did shoot and kill a SK tourist, and the SK government stopped all tourism by their citizens to NK in response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siam Sam View Post
I believe a kidnapped Canadian was executed a few weeks ago in the Philippines. Perhaps he's the one you're thinking of. But overall, I would not consider the Philippines a dangerous place to go. Certainly not in the same league as Afghanistan.
It depends on where in the Philippines one would go. Overall, of course, the country is safe for tourism. Certain areas are not controlled very well--or at all--by the national government. The US State Department has this to say:
Quote:
Philippines Travel Warning
Last Updated: April 21, 2016

The Department of State warns U.S. citizens to avoid all non-essential travel to the Sulu Archipelago and through the southern Sulu Sea, and to exercise extreme caution when traveling to the island of Mindanao, due to continued terrorist threats, insurgent activities and kidnappings. This Travel Warning replaces the Travel Warning dated October 21, 2015.

U.S. citizens should continue to defer non-essential travel to the Sulu Archipelago, due to the high threat of kidnapping of international travelers, increased threat of maritime kidnappings against small boats in the vicinity of the Sulu Archipelago, and violence linked to insurgency and terrorism there.

U.S. citizens should defer non-essential travel through the southern Sulu Sea region from the southern tip of Palawan, along the coast of Sabah, Malaysia and the islands of the Sulu Archipelago, up to Zamboanga City, Mindanao. Terrorist and insurgent groups based in the Sulu Archipelago continue to target foreigners for kidnapping in the Eastern Sabah province of Malaysia and in the southern Sulu Sea area.

U.S. citizens should also continue to exercise extreme caution if traveling to certain regions and cities of the island of Mindanao. Separatist and terrorist groups continue to carry out attacks and kidnappings against civilians, foreigners, political leaders, and Philippine security forces in Mindanao. Since January 2015, at least 15 separate kidnappings have been reported across Mindanao. In western Mindanao, terrorist, insurgent, and criminal gangs regularly conduct kidnappings for ransom, including the kidnapping of a foreigner in Dipolog City in early October 2015 by unknown assailants. In central Mindanao, the Bangsamoro Islamic Freedom Fighters (BIFF) remains active in the Cotabato City area, and in the Maguindanao, North Cotabato, and Sultan Kudarat provinces, where the government maintains a state of emergency and a greater police presence. While there have been no recent reported terrorist threats or incidents within the Davao City or Surigao city limits, eastern Mindanao is not free from threats. In September 2015, assailants belonging to the Abu Sayyaf Group kidnapped four individuals, including three foreigners, from the popular resort island of Samal, a 15 minute boat ride from Davao City. There have been no reports of U.S. citizens in Mindanao targeted specifically for their nationality; however, general threats to U.S. citizens and other foreigners throughout Mindanao remain a concern.

Although U.S. government officials in the Philippines travel to Mindanao for official business without incident, the Embassy has imposed strict restrictions on all but the most essential travel to the area, and Embassy employees must receive special authorization from Embassy security officials to travel to any location in Mindanao or the Sulu Archipelago.

Last edited by Monty; 05-22-2016 at 02:19 AM..
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  #110  
Old 05-22-2016, 07:41 AM
Kimera757 Kimera757 is offline
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Originally Posted by Monty View Post
If you agree with that posting, then you accept North Korea's narrative of the event, an event which is almost 100% certainly a thing that did not happen at all. What did happen, obviously, is that Warmbier has been detained by the NK government.
I don't agree with what North Korea said or did. I don't know if Warmbier even stole the sign (and if he did, 10-15 years hard labor is not reasonable). I just want to know why Warmbier went to one of the most dangerous countries on Earth for a vacation. It was so incredibly stupid.

No amount of money, sexy women or boredom could convince me to go to North Korea. I don't need the government to warn me off (though they would).
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  #111  
Old 05-25-2016, 04:11 PM
HubZilla HubZilla is offline
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I seem to recall he took the banner for his church. Has this church spoken up about him yet?
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  #112  
Old 05-25-2016, 08:52 PM
enipla enipla is online now
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Originally Posted by HubZilla View Post
I seem to recall he took the banner for his church. Has this church spoken up about him yet?
Sounds just like something that NK would say. "Christianity is Evil"

Now, his church may have suggested that he spread the word of 'God', but I rather doubt that they asked him to steal propaganda banners.

I suspect that the US State Department has suggested that his church not make a statement.
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  #113  
Old 05-25-2016, 09:37 PM
buddy431 buddy431 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kimera757 View Post
I just want to know why Warmbier went to one of the most dangerous countries on Earth for a vacation. It was so incredibly stupid.
Except, objectively, it's not one of the most dangerous countries on Earth for American tourists. No Americans are killed, a few are detained for a short amount of time. And you probably don't have to deal with some of the more "normal" dangers of traveling like getting robbed.

Last edited by buddy431; 05-25-2016 at 09:37 PM..
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  #114  
Old 05-25-2016, 11:15 PM
Rick Kitchen Rick Kitchen is offline
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Originally Posted by HubZilla View Post
I seem to recall he took the banner for his church. Has this church spoken up about him yet?
His "confession" said he did it to impress the Z Society, which is a secret society at UVA, but the confession also said the Z Society had links to the CIA, so ...
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  #115  
Old 05-26-2016, 06:06 AM
Monty Monty is offline
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Originally Posted by enipla View Post
Sounds just like something that NK would say. "Christianity is Evil"
Yep.

Quote:
Now, his church may have suggested that he spread the word of 'God', but I rather doubt that they asked him to steal propaganda banners.
Of course they didn't. It's a fabrication from the Norks. How would the people at his church even know that there would be a propaganda banner in a stairwell that's off-limits to foreign visitors?

Quote:
I suspect that the US State Department has suggested that his church not make a statement.
I suspect the US Department of State did not do that either.
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  #116  
Old 06-13-2017, 02:14 PM
PastTense PastTense is offline
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University of Virginia student Otto Warmbier has been medically evacuated from North Korea in a coma after being detained for 17 months, his parents told The Washington Post on Tuesday. Warmbier, 22, is due to arrive home in Cincinnati on Tuesday evening, after a stop at a U.S. military facility near Sapporo, Japan.

The family said they were informed that North Korean officials had told American envoys that Warmbier became ill with botulism sometime after his March trial in North Korea, where he was serving a 15-year-sentence for “hostile acts against the state.” The North Korean account, the family said, claimed Warmbier then fell into a coma after being given a sleeping pill. The Warmbiers said they were told their son has remained in a coma since then.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...88f_story.html

Anyone know medically if this could happen? [My guess instead would be that he was so badly beaten that he suffered brain injuries.]
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  #117  
Old 06-13-2017, 04:00 PM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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Evidence of cranial trauma will be fairly easy to find, if it exists.
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  #118  
Old 06-13-2017, 05:10 PM
Roderick Femm Roderick Femm is offline
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Yeah, about that, well, he fell down and hit his head after he was given the sleeping pill. Seventeen times.
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  #119  
Old 06-13-2017, 05:19 PM
Vinyl Turnip Vinyl Turnip is online now
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I'm no expert on treatment for botulism, but... a sleeping pill?
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  #120  
Old 06-13-2017, 09:51 PM
Warm blood Warm blood is offline
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Serious question, why don't they ban all travel to North Korea? There's absolutely no logical reason for why anyone who's not a native of the country to go there.

Also, what is the impetus behind keeping a comatose person detained for a year before finally deciding to release them? Why didn't they ship him back to his homeland as soon as he fell unconscious? Are they aware of the diplomatic nightmare this presents if he dies thus making them responsible for his death?
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  #121  
Old 06-13-2017, 10:57 PM
hajario hajario is offline
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Diplomatic nightmare? It's not possible for them to be more shunned. They don't give a fuck about anything.
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  #122  
Old 06-13-2017, 11:07 PM
Warm blood Warm blood is offline
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They gave enough of a fuck to not harm previous detainees. So what's making them so brazen this time?
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  #123  
Old 06-14-2017, 12:12 AM
Mijin Mijin is offline
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Around 5,000 westerners, and 100,000 Asians, visit North Korea each year. The proportion detained for dubious reasons seems quite low, and I'd bet there are other, more well-known tourist destinations, with a higher proportion.
A number of my friends took part in the Pyongyang marathon this year, and I was disappointed that work commitments stopped me from joining them.

The situation with Warmbier has definitely given me and others pause though.
But I don't agree with some upthread saying that at the time he went it was a really stupid decision / crazy risk.
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  #124  
Old 06-14-2017, 04:18 AM
Gatopescado Gatopescado is offline
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Originally Posted by shunpiker View Post
And, to look on the bright side, think of the great story this guy’s gonna have if when he gets home.
...if/when he comes out of a year-long coma.

Might sound like this: "Arrrgh, uhhhhgg arrrhhhuurrr....."
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  #125  
Old 06-14-2017, 05:15 AM
asahi asahi is offline
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I don't think Warmbier was crazy for going to North Korea. I've seen several really interesting travel blogs from Americans and other travelers from Pyongyang that actually seem to humanize North Korea a little. It was a calculated risk. Chances are, he goes there and has a few interesting stories to tell. Unfortunately, he was among the small percentage of folks who end up finding themselves in a world of shit. The most dangerous places on earth aren't strict dictatorial regimes like North Korea. The most dangerous places on earth are where there is no law and order. Some areas in Mexico and much of the Hindu-Kush region, for instance. I've read of people traveling to remote areas of Afghanistan -- now that is effing dangerous.

What happened to Warmbier could actually happen in a lot of countries, many of which are led by regimes that are much less cultish and radical than Kim Jung Un's North Korea. They may not necessarily be detained and used as political pawns in this manner, but foreign travelers, including those from powerful developed countries, can easily find themselves detained for dubious reasons by corrupt local officials or powerful locall citizens. They could be detained and held for ransom by local 'law enforcement', kidnapped, murdered, whatever. It's probably a low risk, but a risk nevertheless. In my experience, the most common reason for Western visitors finding themselves in trouble was getting drunk in some local watering hole and then mouthing off to the wrong people.

But that doesn't appear to be what happened here. I agree with Monty: Kim Jung Un's regime wanted a bargaining chip. They probably beat him nearly to death on purpose to escalate and make America aware that they actually do have it in them to kill one of their detainees. It reminds me of the way Malaysia seemed determined some years ago now to send a message to Australia that they actually had it in them to execute two of their nationals for drug trafficking.

Last edited by asahi; 06-14-2017 at 05:18 AM..
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  #126  
Old 06-14-2017, 02:58 PM
Patx2 Patx2 is offline
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Originally Posted by shunpiker View Post
Generally, I agree with the OP, too.

And, to look on the bright side, think of the great story this guy’s gonna have if when he gets home.
Maybe he will have a story to tell. Are reports true that he's been in a coma since March?
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  #127  
Old 06-14-2017, 03:33 PM
Vinyl Turnip Vinyl Turnip is online now
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Originally Posted by Gatopescado View Post
...if/when he comes out of a year-long coma.

Might sound like this: "Arrrgh, uhhhhgg arrrhhhuurrr....."
You're a terrible person. I'm surprised I haven't seen you at the meetings.
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  #128  
Old 06-14-2017, 07:13 PM
quimper quimper is offline
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Originally Posted by Patx2 View Post
Maybe he will have a story to tell. Are reports true that he's been in a coma since March?
He hadn't been seen since March 2016, so he's been in a coma for over a year.

My (admittedly morbid) WAG? He attempted suicide and (mostly) succeeded. I hope he recovers.
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  #129  
Old 06-14-2017, 07:40 PM
Evan Drake Evan Drake is offline
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A horrible situation. I feel very sorry for him.
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  #130  
Old 06-14-2017, 07:57 PM
Kimera757 Kimera757 is offline
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Originally Posted by Warm blood View Post
Serious question, why don't they ban all travel to North Korea? There's absolutely no logical reason for why anyone who's not a native of the country to go there.
Unfortunately that wouldn't work. There are lots of rules and laws designed to prevent idiots from acting like idiots, and they don't work.

People still drive without seatbelts. Sometimes while being distracted by talking on a hands-free smartphone. Or maybe it's not hands-free. And maybe they're actually taking naked video of themselves.

Even if the US were to outright outlaw travel there, there's nothing preventing a person from flying from the US to Japan, taking a flight to China, then taking a tour bus into North Korea. Someone will do it even if they have to buy a prepaid credit card (if American credit cards prevent this).

"Stupidity is like water. It always finds a way."

I think the US should just say they will not rescue anyone who gets stranded, arrested or what have you in North Korea. That won't stop all the idiots, but it means the US doesn't have to expend any time or energy trying to rescue them. This makes taking hostages a poor strategy.
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  #131  
Old 06-15-2017, 03:14 PM
PastTense PastTense is offline
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Released North Korea detainee Otto Warmbier suffered extensive brain damage and shows no current signs of botulism, doctors at the University of Cincinnati Medical Center said Thursday.
The 22-year-old has not spoken or "engaged in any purposeful movements" since arriving in the country Tuesday night, said Dr. Daniel Kanter, professor of neurology and director of the Neurocritical Care Program. "He shows no signs of understanding language or responding to verbal commands," the doctor said, adding that Warmbier's condition is best described as "unresponsive wakefulness."

The doctors said they could not speculate on what caused his injuries. They said they had no information about the kind of care he received in North Korea. The earliest images of his brain from North Korea are dated April 2016, Kanter said. An analysis suggests the injury likely occurred in the preceding weeks. "This pattern of brain injury is usually seen as result of cardiopulmonary arrest where the blood supply to brain is inadequate for a period of time resulting in the death of brain tissue," he said.
The doctors would not discuss Warmbier's prognosis.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/15/politi...rea/index.html
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  #132  
Old 06-15-2017, 03:24 PM
PastTense PastTense is offline
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Since it has been over a year the prognosis looks very poor:
http://brainfoundation.org.au/disord...getative-state
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  #133  
Old 06-19-2017, 04:30 PM
psychobunny psychobunny is offline
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Otto Warmbier has apparently died. It all seems so senseless. I feel for his parents. I do have to wonder, though, how it was that he survived over a year in a coma in North Korea yet died so soon after returning to the US. I have to think that he must have been deteriorating rapidly which is why they returned him. Still, the punishment was still far too harsh for any crime he may have committed.
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  #134  
Old 06-19-2017, 04:41 PM
Velocity Velocity is online now
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Is there any plausible non-violent cause of cardiopulmonary arrest in an otherwise healthy person in his early 20s?


For that matter, what violent cause could cause such a thing?
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  #135  
Old 06-19-2017, 04:46 PM
rocking chair rocking chair is offline
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When I heard the reports from Ohio, it put me in mind of terry schiavo. I'm figuring the parents decided to "let him go", rather than keep him on support; after conferring with the doctors. The doctors were very careful in the press conference on what was being done for otto.

So very sad for the parents.
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  #136  
Old 06-19-2017, 05:39 PM
PastTense PastTense is offline
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Warmbier had been medically evacuated and returned to Cincinnati last week in a coma. Fred and Cindy Warmbier said in a written statement that they watched their 22-year-old son’s face change, in the days that followed, from anguished to peaceful. “He was home and we believe he could sense that.”...

Warmbier’s death could push Congress or the Trump administration to restrict or ban Americans from traveling to North Korea. Reps. Adam Schiff (D-Calif.) and Joe Wilson (R-S.C.) have introduced the North Korea Travel Control Act in the House, which would require Americans who want to travel to North Korea to obtain a license. There would be no licenses for tourists. The Senate has been more reluctant to introduce restrictions on Americans — but Warmbier’s death might be the trigger that they need, analysts say. Separately, Secretary of State Rex Tillerson has raised the prospect of the administration using an executive order to ban travel to North Korea.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...an-detainment/

I think a permit of some has merit.

Last edited by PastTense; 06-19-2017 at 05:41 PM..
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  #137  
Old 06-19-2017, 06:32 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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Originally Posted by psychobunny View Post
Otto Warmbier has apparently died. It all seems so senseless. I feel for his parents. I do have to wonder, though, how it was that he survived over a year in a coma in North Korea yet died so soon after returning to the US. I have to think that he must have been deteriorating rapidly which is why they returned him. Still, the punishment was still far too harsh for any crime he may have committed.
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Originally Posted by rocking chair View Post
When I heard the reports from Ohio, it put me in mind of terry schiavo. I'm figuring the parents decided to "let him go", rather than keep him on support; after conferring with the doctors. The doctors were very careful in the press conference on what was being done for otto.

So very sad for the parents.
When I read about this, I thought the two likely scenarios were:

1. He was in a coma for a year, and then the NK doctors noticed a definite deterioration and decided to get rid of the hot potato.

2. He was in some sort of persistent vegetative state and the parents decided to pull the plug.
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  #138  
Old 06-19-2017, 08:26 PM
Martin Hyde Martin Hyde is offline
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Is there any plausible non-violent cause of cardiopulmonary arrest in an otherwise healthy person in his early 20s?


For that matter, what violent cause could cause such a thing?
It's impossible to say, there are tons of pharmacological causes and physical injuries which could have caused this situation. Their claim of botulism isn't even totally out of the realm of possibility, in like 10% of botulism cases the patient dies, and it can cause respiratory paralysis which requires proper ventilation to keep the person alive until they get better. If they had a lapse in his care he could have basically been oxygen starved for just long enough to mostly kill his brain and leave him a vegetable.

It's unlikely if it was a physical injury it was a head trauma, as there would be clear signs of the skull fracturing, any head trauma bad enough to cause this level of brain damage would be impossible to hide.

We'll likely never know the truth, but there are leaked reports that somehow U.S. officials have heard that Warmbier was "repeatedly beaten", if he was being subjected to physical abuse a lot of things could go wrong. He could even have been restrained in a stress position improperly, in a way that suppressed his ability to breathe (that was a major factor in how Eric Garner died, albeit Garner was so obese which was a huge contributing factor, but it's theoretically possible even for a healthy weight young adult to suffer a form of positional asphyxiation.)

What we do know is this is very out of the norm for North Korea. Most Americans they've detained have suffered privation and detention, but only a couple have been physically abused. None of those were physically abused to the point they died, or even suffered long term physical impairments, so for reasons we likely will never know the North Koreans may have decided to be far harsher with Warmbier. Or, some freak medical thing happened and they basically didn't respond to it adequately and were left in a weird situation, of wanting to still reap the propaganda benefits of an American detainee but having a barely-alive vegetable instead of a healthy young adult.
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  #139  
Old 06-21-2017, 09:04 AM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Is there any plausible non-violent cause of cardiopulmonary arrest in an otherwise healthy person in his early 20s?
An embolism, perhaps. Though I'm not sure that we can assume Warmbier was "otherwise healthy."
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  #140  
Old 06-22-2017, 03:48 PM
Warm blood Warm blood is offline
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Not to absolve Otto of any responsibility since he was an adult man fully capable of sound judgment, but this article provides illuminating insight about the tour group he was with: https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news...ea-061917.html

If he was surrounded by people (including a tour guide who is supposed to know better) doing stupid stuff and getting away with it, then no wonder he felt emboldened to steal a poster (assuming that's what really happened). Plus the guy who last saw him alive who accompanied him on the trip said they were drinking the night guards came and detained him. So being under the influence of booze + being in an environment where risky behavior is encouraged made for a dangerous cocktail.

But it's also possible that he wasn't guilty of doing anything wrong but was singled out in order to strike fear in the touring company.

Last edited by Warm blood; 06-22-2017 at 03:50 PM..
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  #141  
Old 06-22-2017, 04:33 PM
Darren Garrison Darren Garrison is offline
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Is there any plausible non-violent cause of cardiopulmonary arrest in an otherwise healthy person in his early 20s?
There is a minimally-violent way--"commotio cordis." A relatively minor hit to the sternum at exactly the wrong moment during the heart's cycle can cause it to stop. I'm not saying that it is likely (especially since apparently it is mostly in people younger than Warmbier) but it is in theory possible that some bit of rough but not utterly brutal handling caused his heart to stop.
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  #142  
Old 06-22-2017, 04:44 PM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is online now
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My feelings aren't really mixed, here. I just feel terrible for the guy and his family.
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  #143  
Old 06-22-2017, 07:06 PM
hajario hajario is offline
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Originally Posted by Spice Weasel View Post
My feelings aren't really mixed, here. I just feel terrible for the guy and his family.
Keep in mind that this thread was started when he was first detained.
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  #144  
Old 06-22-2017, 07:47 PM
Kimera757 Kimera757 is offline
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Originally Posted by Warm blood View Post
Not to absolve Otto of any responsibility since he was an adult man fully capable of sound judgment, but this article provides illuminating insight about the tour group he was with: https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news...ea-061917.html

If he was surrounded by people (including a tour guide who is supposed to know better) doing stupid stuff and getting away with it, then no wonder he felt emboldened to steal a poster (assuming that's what really happened).
I have a family member with a troubled child who does stupid stuff, and she always trots out an excuse like that. "Her friends/grandmother/whoever do stupid things too." I don't buy it.

Quote:
But it's also possible that he wasn't guilty of doing anything wrong but was singled out in order to strike fear in the touring company.
If you could drop the last four words I would agree with you. (The touring company brings money to North Korea, and intimidating them isn't diplomatically useful, while intimidating America apparently is.)
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  #145  
Old 06-23-2017, 10:48 AM
PastTense PastTense is offline
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Here is a University of Delaware professor who feels he got exactly what he deserved:
http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=9350

I disagree. While I feel he was extremely stupid for going to North Korea, the final result was a tragedy.
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  #146  
Old 06-23-2017, 01:30 PM
Warm blood Warm blood is offline
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@ Kimera757:

I did say this doesn't absolve him of his idiocy, so I'm not using it as an excuse for his behavior, I'm just saying it may provide some context for his actions. The company isn't accountable for how their travelers behave but I do feel the tour guide has a responsibility to not act like a drunken frat boy not only for the purpose of setting an example but also for the travelers' safety. Some of his antics have nearly gotten a whole group into trouble.

And yeah, it's more accurate to say Otto may have been an innocent scapegoat used to "punish" the US, but I initially thought he was singled out to send the tour company a message about what their silly antics may cause. But I just remembered the tour guide/founder of the company is British so that would be kinda pointless. Now I wonder if Otto was the only American national on that fateful trip. If so, it really increases the likelihood that he was just guilty of only going on that trip in the first place.

@ PastTense:

Did that person seriously insinuate that Otto was a rapist and a junkie purely on the fact that he was a rich, white male? How does she sound any better than those who generalize minorities in the same manner?

Apologies for the format of this reply, the quote function seems broken on my end.
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  #147  
Old 06-24-2017, 04:34 AM
Paul in Qatar Paul in Qatar is offline
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Originally Posted by enipla View Post
Sounds just like something that NK would say. "Christianity is Evil"

Now, his church may have suggested that he spread the word of 'God', but I rather doubt that they asked him to steal propaganda banners.

I note the New York "Yiddish" papers are reporting the young man was a Jew. I have no idea if this is true.
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  #148  
Old 06-24-2017, 09:17 AM
Monty Monty is offline
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This video has a great analysis of Warmbier's "confession".
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  #149  
Old 06-24-2017, 11:53 AM
Siam Sam Siam Sam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul in Qatar View Post
I note the New York "Yiddish" papers are reporting the young man was a Jew. I have no idea if this is true.
From Wikipedia:

"His mother is of Jewish descent."

and

"He was a brother of the Theta Chi fraternity, and was active in the Hillel Jewish campus organization at the University of Virginia. He had visited Israel in a Birthright Israel heritage trip for young Jewish adults, a visit he described in a blog post."

I doubt he was being persecuted based on his religion though. It's all the same to North Korea.
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  #150  
Old 06-24-2017, 12:50 PM
Ann Hedonia Ann Hedonia is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty View Post
This video has a great analysis of Warmbier's "confession".
Interesting link. It makes me suspect that he was innocent - or at least innocent of what he was accused of.
I wonder if there is any forensic analysis of the video that shows him taking the banner. It's very suspect to me, because the "perp" removes the banner and sets it down on the floor. No hesitation, no attempt fold it, roll it up, no attempt to really TAKE it. And the person handles the banner almost reverently. And It seems like the shadowy figure may be shorter than Warmbier, although I don't have a real basis to judge.

And the confession was obviously scripted. I don't for a minute believe that the act was commissioned by his church and planned in advance of his trip. I always felt that if he did it it was an impulsive act, possibly fueled by alcohol. I guess I thought maybe he glimpsed the banner on the far side of a "staff-only" door. But according to the linked video, the entire floor was "staff only" and the guest elevators don't stop on that floor.
So he would have had to work out how to gain access to that floor, which doesn't seem to fit with "drunken impulse".

I really think something else was going on, I'm just not sure what.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 06-24-2017 at 12:50 PM..
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