Rich college student "liberal" dabblers must die.

[even sven]

I am liberal. I am about as liberal as it gets. I am a freaking leftist. So this rant pains me. I dig the fact that I go to an extremely liberal university. I dig my fellow students. One would think I'd dig my fellow liberal students.

Sadly, that can't be.

I was on the bus this morning, happily going to class. Behind me, two girls are talking about their plans for the summer. Typical college student stuff. Then the subject of Colorado comes up.

"Like, I hear there is this Buddist co-op in Colorado and I think I am going to visit there this summer" says a girl that in any other decade would have been a debutante
"Oh wow. It is so cool that they are like living out their beliefs and all" says girl #2.
"Yeah, like, they are even vegetarian there!!! It is so brave."

Look, people, liberalism is not the sort of thing you do as a tourist. Stopping by a co-op full of other rich white wanna-be buddists on your way to your daddy's cabin is not a humanitarian effort. Why don't you use the money you'd spent on a plane ticket on something useful? I know a lot of kids in the neighborhood I grew up in would be happy to have something other than ramen and toast to eat at the end of the month while you are out cavorting with those brave Colorado vegetarians who have probably never know a moment of hunger in their life. Patting yourself on the back for visiting a co-op is not exactly the kind of political action that is going to acheive anything in this country.

It gets worse. They start talking about their classes.

Although my university has a reputation as a slacker haven, there are some majors that are damn hard. In my major (film) we are expected to be writing publishable material by our second year. We encounter readings that arn't usually touched until well in to grad school. We work our asses off, and we come out with an awesome education.

But then there is the Community Studies major.

In the Community Studies major, you take a smattering of random classes with no real direction except that they all involve some sort of arm-chair liberalism. I did a community studies course once that consisted mostly of sitting on couches in the women's center and bitching about life and reading fairly simplistic feminist musings. It was a great class- we all need to take a break every once in a while and do something fun. But it isn't the sort of thing that you can make a major out of. In the interest of fairness, Community Studies chooses to keep their classes lower division and open to non-majors. In other words, there are no classes that delve deeper than a single quarter's worth of work. There is no core material that is then expanded on and challenged in upper division classes. But hey, nothing wrong with a somewhat easy major, right?

The crowing glory of the Community Studies major is the field study. You spend two quarters not doing any schoolwork whatsoever. Instead you participate in some kind of project that "helps" some kind of community. Although options exist in the area, almost all Community Studies majors get their daddies to finance long trips to wonderfully exotic third world countries, where they can then gush about all the epiphanies and self realization that they gained from being around people that are neither rich nor white. Actually learning anything or doing something useful never seems to factor in. It is all about feeling empowered and fulfilled by your third-world experience.

It is the perfect major for kids who are only going to college so that they can get a couple more years of full support out of their parents.

So these girls are Community Studies majors. One of the girls didn't have a single class....she got credits for an independent study where she apparently just reads books in order to prepare herself for her field study hanging out with strawberry workers in Watsonville. Nothing wrong with helping out Strawberry workers in Watsonville- heck, my boyfriend does computers for the AFW, but it isn't exactly the sort of thing that you need a whole quarter's worth of background reading for. At this point in your life, in this part of the state, Mexicans should not be so exotic that you need a huge amount of preparation to begin working with them. I just can't help but think what these poor strawberry workers are going to do when these well dressed blonde college students desend on to them as their pet project. Don't these girls see a little bit of a problem with the fact that they are well fed, well financed college students using these people as a mix of gunia pigs and lab rats as they BS their way through a college career that these strawberry workers could never dream of providing for their kids. Does that ever bother them in the least?

The other "classes" mentioned were no better. One of the girls was getting five credits for working at the on campus natural food co-op. Yeah, helping hippies get their four dollar bottles of Odwalla is really helping the community and providing a valuable education. The other girl talked about how she was doing multiple education abroad trips (which are known more for parties with cute foreign boys than academic challenges- this girl was going to New Zealand, no doubt to get out of any language requirements). Why are you going to college if you have no intention of doing something that remotely betters yourself or others????

That's right...you can afford to.

I'm a little bitter. I work my ass off and starve on a regular basis so that I can go to college. A lot of people I grew up with didn't even get the chance to do that. Why do these girls get to waltz around doing absolutely nothing and still get to pat themselves on the back about how wonderfully liberal they are and how wonderful good that is? Why do they get to gush about how going to a protest made them feel so "empowered" (hint: protesting is for causing change and that sort of thing- not making the participants feel all good about themselves) when people are going hungry, starving, and living in worlds with no oppertunities? GGGGrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please grow up or get off my bus!!!!!!!!

[matt_mcl]

So at what point and by what methods could they in fact develop a social conscience and experience personal growth? Or are they completely beyond hope?

[fluiddruid]

It's so much harder looking at morons who have the same political views as you, but for all the wrong reasons, than morons on the other side, isn't it?

I got a fair amount of heckling in college for being the 'rich kid' because I didn't work during the school year for 3 out of the 4 years. Granted, I had things pretty well off, but I did work my ass off over the summer, put darn near everything in savings, then spend very little during the year (except that I liked to treat my friends to occasional nights out because I knew that I could afford things easier and I didn't want them to worry about money). To be honest, I could have simply worked during the year and taken fewer classes, but in the end out-of-state tuition made it worth my family's while for me to get in and get out as soon as was possible.

Yeah, it's hard to watch rich kids who squander what they have. It's also hard to watch the football atheletes get anything they want handed to them by the school, funded by your tuition. It's hard, in the arts, to see your department struggling desperately for funding and losing, but to see the sciences and the business college getting brand new buildings. Welcome to college, where, like life, things ain't always fair.

[yosemite]

You know, I am with you on this, but I have to see the "big picture".

And the "big picture" is that you are acquiring a real education, and are learning real skills. You are learning real life lessons, that will carry you through to the rest of your life.

These silly gits are learning little, (at least as far as we can tell). If they continue to be as shallow as you perceived them to be, sooner or later, it'll catch up with them. In some way or other, they'll end up "wanting" something more, and will realize that they blew their college years on meaningless drivel.

I remember one of my friends getting all worked up about a fellow student in her art class (she was majoring in metal arts). This other girl had all the breaks. Was rich, spoiled, had connections, everthing fell into place for her. But she (this spoiled girl) was BAD at metal art. She was BAD, but didn't know it, because everything came so easy for her (through her family connections, etc.). She should have been pitied - she had no real ability in the thing that she was majoring in. She was being deluded. It's sad, really.

I saw the same thing when I was in art scool. Privileged "wannabe" artists who didn't really want to do any work, they just wanted to "act" like artists, and be considered as "arty". But they were BAD artists - because being a good artist requires WORK! And they weren't into that. And they thought I was silly and geeky because I was into working hard. Well, phooey on them. You put nothing into college, you get nothing out of college. What a waste of tuition money.

These folks may be having a lark now, having everything fall into place for them, rest assured, it won't last forever. In the end, study, learning, and hard work are what get you places. Your success, your feeling of pride over a hard-earned accomplishment will be your best revenge. These "dabbler" types won't ever understand or experience that feeling of satisfaction. They are wasting their time, and aren't getting their (daddy's) money's worth out of their education. What a bummer.

I know, I know, this is about liberalism. But it just as easily could be about art. These "dabbler" types are pretty common in the art world.

[Myrr21]

Especially metal arts, which are entirely different than "mental arts"...

Damn I need to just go to sleep.

[matt_mcl]

All I want to know is, when will I be safe?

In the interests of full disclosure, I'll confess that I'm a university student whose parents are comfortably well-off. (Horrors!)

Was it enough to move out of their house and live in poverty to demonstrate my class solidarity? (Am I tainted each time they bring over another box of cat litter after they go to the store?) Will running for election (a second time) be enough to demonstrate my commitment or sincerity?

What, oh what will be enough to escape the taint of undergraduate champagne socialism?

(And why is it that nobody ever doubts the sincerity of conservative college students' beliefs, rich or poor?)

[jjimm]

Ask yourself: if you are a leftist, would you rather these overprivileged people had liberal or conservative beliefs? Every little counts, these days.

[Ukulele Ike]

Good point, jjimm.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt and George W. Bush were both overprivileged rich kids who attended hoity-toity schools and universities. Which one do you like better as Prez, sven?

[andros]

And why is it that nobody ever doubts the sincerity of conservative college students' beliefs

Oh, I certainly do, Matt. It's just that there are so few of them compared to neo-liberals.

[SuaSponte]

My younger sister is a pinko freak. She's actually very sincere - she works as an investigator for a public interest legal service that works on death penalty cases, and has an extensive resume of work for community service and leftist political causes.

All well and good. She'll grow out of it.

She has decided to go to law school, so that she can be an attorney for some or another public interest law group or advocacy organization. She emailed me a little while back, very excited, because she had been accepted by NYU School of Law.
She wasn't sure she was going to go to NYU, though. While she thought it was a great school, she didn't look forward to going to school with a bunch of stupid rich kids.

I responded, "Hate to be the one to tell you, but you are a 'stupid rich kid.'"

Yeah, stupid is my own opinion (hey, she's my baby sister - of course she's stupid ), but rich is freaking clear. Poor kids don't grow up in a house, abutting a golf course, that is probably worth a cool million. Poor kids don't go to elite liberal arts colleges free of student loans. And poor kids don't take off two months before starting law school (also likely to be free) so they can travel around the world (admittedly on the cheap).

Ah, the self-delusion of youth.

Sua

[jjimm]

Originally posted by SuaSponte
She has decided to go to law school, so that she can be an attorney for some or another public interest law group or advocacy organization.

She'll grow out of that angle too... IPR, anyone?

[Oblong]

(And why is it that nobody ever doubts the sincerity of conservative college students' beliefs, rich or poor?)

That's because the conservative college kids are too worried about getting a job and making a lot of money then they are about showing off how much they care.

[matt_mcl]

Originally posted by andros
neo-liberals.

BTW: social democrats ("left wingers") and neo-liberals are not the same thing. Quite the opposite, in fact. Compare the term "neoliberal globalization," which does not mean "globalization as pushed by anti-globalization activists".

[matt_mcl]

Originally posted by Oblong
That's because the conservative college kids are too worried about getting a job and making a lot of money then they are about showing off how much they care.

Wouldn't that be how they're showing that they care (about conservatism, that is)?

[Sauron]

matt_mcl, I think the OP is more frustrated with the "dabbling" in liberal causes, rather than the fact that the students are liberals.

I liken it to the proto-Goth students at my old college (lo, these many years ago). A small handful of students dressed all in black and moaned about how difficult life was for them, all was entropy and chaos, and nothing was worthwhile. Immediately thereafter, they'd get all excited about the upcoming U2 concert and complain how difficult it was to score tickets, since their credit cards were maxed out "and Dad is threatening to stop paying my car insurance if I don't at least TRY to live on a budget."

It's the rare student who fully embraces an idea or cause, as you seem to have done. Frankly, the vast majority are still insulated from the realities of life (I certainly was). Congrats on living your values.

[Angel of the Lord]

Originally posted by matt_mcl
All I want to know is, when will I be safe?

In the interests of full disclosure, I'll confess that I'm a university student whose parents are comfortably well-off. (Horrors!)

Was it enough to move out of their house and live in poverty to demonstrate my class solidarity? (Am I tainted each time they bring over another box of cat litter after they go to the store?) Will running for election (a second time) be enough to demonstrate my commitment or sincerity?

What, oh what will be enough to escape the taint of undergraduate champagne socialism?

You know, I don't think that even sven was bitching about people who happen to both hold liberal political beliefs and be comfortable financially (hell, I fit into that category), but rather attacking those people who believe that "acting" liberal is more important than actually making a difference.

I can certainly relate to that part of the rant. I have about zero tolerance for self-righteous pretentiousness, whether or not I agree with their basic principles. I'd rather see someone out there actually *helping* things rather than focusing exclusively on "self-improvement" via methods of expensive retreats. These people aren't wrong, but misguided, and are directing their efforts towards causes that, in the grand sceme of things, are rather unimportant.

There are, however, "rich" liberals who actually *do* make a difference, who have an accurate view of what will help. I think that sven kind of forgot to mention that. I do resent it when people say that because I'm a relatively well-off (or my parents are, at least) suburban white chick, I don't know what suffering is, or I can't honestly support a liberal or humanitarian cause. I know pain on some level; everyone does. I know predjudice; hell, I got enough of it yesterday for participating in the Day of Silence. I know what it's like to be teased, and what it's like to miss a couple of meals. I don't want anyone to have to go through that; I certainly don't want anyone to go through something that's probably a million times worse than that.

[Fretful Porpentine]

Originally posted by andros

Oh, I certainly do, Matt. It's just that there are so few of them compared to neo-liberals.

Snort ... Depends on which part of the country you're in. There's no shortage of young conservatives at UNC, and having taught quite a few of them, I'm none too convinced of their sincerity either. [Long story about one of my students snipped 'cos it's only tangentially relevant, and it was turning into a rant in its own right.]

evensven, I don't know whether this will make you feel any better, but let's face it, the vast majority of college students are clueless. With rare exceptions (and it sounds like you were one of them), they just haven't had the life experience to be anything else. Some of them become less clueless faster than others, but in the long run, it'll happen to most of them, even these girls. While they may be approaching their time in the strawberry fields or their semester abroad with the wrong attitude, who knows, it just might change them. Or if it doesn't, the first year or two after graduation certainly will. One way or another, people do grow up eventually (heck, I like to think even I did, and looking back on some of the things I thought and did at nineteen, I wouldn't have given long odds). It all works out in the end.

[Michael Ellis]

Originally posted by Fretful Porpentine
[Long story about one of my students snipped 'cos it's only tangentially relevant, and it was turning into a rant in its own right.]

You tease!

let's face it, the vast majority of college students are clueless.

And here I thought it was my imagination.


Oh, and sven, we're attending the same university.

[lel]

While I question that being a brave vegetarian in Colorado on your parents' money is helping the community, they are at least attempting to develop a social conscience, which is more than can be said for many people.

Okay, I do want to see them make a living on minimum wage and shop at thrift stores and yard sales for all their fashion needs. (And yes, I'm aware that many people have it much worse off than this.)

[Kyla]

When I saw the thread title, I thought "Wow! Sounds like my alma mater!"

Then I noticed who the OP was. FTR, even sven does in fact attend my alma mater. The delightful place where they tried to outlaw hate (a technicality kept it off the ballot in 2000), have already succeeded in outlawing nuclear weapons, where the city council regularly issues statements concerning foreign policy (they highly disapprove of the Chinese takeover of Tibet - watch out, Beijing!) - and where on any given day, you'll see kids sleeping on the sidewalk. It's ever so much more fun to create a pretend liberal paradise than actually try and figure out what to about the pervading problem of homelessness.

Like sven, I am a raging leftist, but the phony liberalism of many students at this university, and many citizens of the town, is irritating as hell.

[Mr. Miskatonic]

Originally posted by even sven
So these girls are Community Studies majors. One of the girls didn't have a single class....she got credits for an independent study where she apparently just reads books in order to prepare herself for her field study hanging out with strawberry workers in Watsonville. Nothing wrong with helping out Strawberry workers in Watsonville- heck, my boyfriend does computers for the AFW, but it isn't exactly the sort of thing that you need a whole quarter's worth of background reading for.

Pheh, if you want to give them a challenge, tell them they have to help the Artichoke farmers. No dainty picking of lovely smelling strawberries for these losers...instead make them learn to swing a machete and wear a backpack you fill with high-density vegetable matter.



{minor hijack}

I bike to work in Watsonville. I see a lot of weird things. Your post just explained one of them in advance. Thank you.

[Mr. Frink]

Don't take it personally, even sven , but attitudes such as yours are a major pet peeve of mine. It's that automatic assumption that while your interest in something is sincere, "those people" are just doing it because it's "cool". I hear this type of stuff all the time: "I'm a Pagan because I believe in it--those idiots are Pagans just because it's cool!" It just reeks of a smug, superior attitude. It's as if since these girls come from money, and don't seem as hardcore as you, they are airheads who have no convictions whatsoever. And the fact that their families are rich doesn't mean that they can't be liberal--look at JFK, RFK & FDR.

Originally posted by even sven
"Like, I hear there is this Buddist co-op in Colorado and I think I am going to visit there this summer" says a girl that in any other decade would have been a debutante...Look, people, liberalism is not the sort of thing you do as a tourist. Stopping by a co-op full of other rich white wanna-be buddists on your way to your daddy's cabin is not a humanitarian effort. <SNIP>...while you are out cavorting with those brave Colorado vegetarians who have probably never know a moment of hunger in their life. Patting yourself on the back for visiting a co-op is not exactly the kind of political action that is going to acheive anything in this country.

First off, if you don't know anything about this Buddhist Co-op, you really have no right to write them off as a bunch of "rich white wanna-be Buddhists". Dropping out of society to live a life devoted to your religious ideals is not something that is easy in our culture. And it sounds like you're assuming that this girl's visit to their Co-op is worthless. Even if she's doing it because is sounds "cool", I think that even making an effort to expose yourself to another way of living is valuable. And no matter how much of an airhead she is, I bet she will learn something about their Buddhist beliefs. Just observing their communal lifestyle will cause her to think...and maybe even re-evaluate her materialistic lifestyle. I really admire her for taking the time to visit this co-op. Not many people I know would even think about doing something like that!

Originally posted by even sven
The crowing glory of the Community Studies major is the field study. You spend two quarters not doing any schoolwork whatsoever. Instead you participate in some kind of project that "helps" some kind of community. Although options exist in the area, almost all Community Studies majors get their daddies to finance long trips to wonderfully exotic third world countries, where they can then gush about all the epiphanies and self realization that they gained from being around people that are neither rich nor white. Actually learning anything or doing something useful never seems to factor in. It is all about feeling empowered and fulfilled by your third-world experience.

Wow....you are really belittling what sounds like a great program! Going to a third world county to participate in a project that helps improve a foreign community sounds fantastic! My impression is that they would have to learn about the culture, history and problems facing the community, and would then work on a project to make their lives better. Yet you dismiss this by saying, "Actually learning anything or doing something useful never seems to factor in" Wha? Am I missing something here?

So these girls are Community Studies majors. One of the girls didn't have a single class....she got credits for an independent study where she apparently just reads books in order to prepare herself for her field study hanging out with strawberry workers in Watsonville....but it isn't exactly the sort of thing that you need a whole quarter's worth of background reading for. At this point in your life, in this part of the state, Mexicans should not be so exotic that you need a huge amount of preparation to begin working with them.

I can think of a lot of reading that would be very important. You would want to know about the history and culture of Mexican immigrants. And understanding the long history of the fight for the rights of migrant agricultural laborers is not exactly something you could grasp in an afternoon! If you're going to be working with a group of people from a vastly different culture than yours, I don't think you could ever be overprepared!

I just can't help but think what these poor strawberry workers are going to do when these well dressed blonde college students desend on to them as their pet project. Don't these girls see a little bit of a problem with the fact that they are well fed, well financed college students using these people as a mix of gunia pigs and lab rats as they BS their way through a college career that these strawberry workers could never dream of providing for their kids. Does that ever bother them in the least?

What would these strawberry workers think when they see these college student descend on them? How 'bout: "THANK GOD! With most of society turning their backs on us, these educated young people are coming here to actually help us!" Seriously, California has a long history of mistreating and looking down up its migrant workforce. These college kids, whom you so snidely dismiss, are probably going to be a blessing to them. Not only will they help them improve their working conditions and educate them on relevant labor laws--but they will also show them that at least some people in our society still care!

Please don't take this personally, even sven, but your attitude seems very condescending and immature. According to you these girls don't pass some sort of liberal litmus test because their families are rich and they don't have to starve in order to finance their education. They take classes on community studies that you deem simplistic and shallow. They visit Buddhist communities on their vacation--but you've decided that this is worthless. They go to third world countries to participate in helpful projects--but no...this doesn't count--they only do this to feel "empowered". They discuss feminist issues...aid migrant farmworkers...participate in protests...but none of this is good enough for you. They're just not as liberal as you are, eh? Get off your high horse, even sven!

In today's $dollar sign$ world, most people don't care about anything but making money. And most young people going to college these days are picking careers that will put them on a path to getting rich. There are so many business majors nowadays that it's becoming an epidemic! Yet these girls choose a major dedicated to actually helping people and changing the world. And you put them down for this? They're just not as dedicated as you, as hardworking as you, as poor as you, as intelligent as you. They aren't "working our ass off", studying film, like you are. They are so beneath you! Your judgmental & superior attitude seems to be the exact opposite of what most would consider to be liberal.

I, for one, am pretty damn glad that there are girls like this who actually seem aware of, and concerned about--the world we live in. They are a far cry from the types of girls I went to college with. The only protest they would attend is if Bloomingdales stopped accepting American Express! Lighten up & stop judging others so harshly. Especially those that are at least doing something to better the world. Even if they don't live up to your lofty standards.

[Bad News Baboon]

here's where I am confused:



How about if I wrote:

I was on the bus this morning, happily going to class. Behind me, two girls are talking about their plans for the summer. Typical college student stuff. Then the subject of Colorado comes up.

"Like, I hear there is this Country Club in Colorado and I think I am going to visit there this summer" says a girl that in any other decade would have been a street urchin.

"Oh wow. It is so cool that they are like living like that! They even use Linen! " says girl #2.

"Yeah, like, they even have polo fields!!! It is so brave."


It's not the best example, but you get the idea - if I wrote a similar post was about poor people doing the equivalent, a good many posters here would be on me like flies on shit.

while Angel of the Lord says that the OP is not about moneyed people per say, I disagree. The whole OP reeks of sour grapes. and I think its bullshit.

If the OP felt that way about dabblers that would be one thing.

But then, I have met some 'poor' dabblers myself (having grown up in a not wealthy neighborhood). You know what? We had the same bores at my school too, regardless of income. In college I met fellow art student who were poor and were not talented what so ever. I met rich ones who had immense talent. and vise versa. The point is: Boorish behavior (or talent) knows no financial limitations. The insinuation that only poor people work hard and therefore are MORE deserving is pure and absolute bullshit.

I think even sven is more pissed at the fact that these students have money to fund their 'dabbles' more than anything else - at least that is how I read the OP.

and if that is the case, get over yourself.
I am QUITE sure that there is some leftist somewhere out there much more poor than you, who looks at YOU the way you looked upon the debutantes. ("wow, how grand for her that she could afford going to college. I wish I could!")


I mean, jesh, if they aren't affecting you personally, why do you give a shit what these girls believe? Every little bit counts, doesn't it? And its the end result that matters, right?


p.s. for the record Mr. Miskatonic, farmers I have known say that picking strawberries is bare none, the worst job in picking. The constant bending WAY down and the fact that they are easily mashed makes for a hard job.

[gobear]

[quote]
What would these strawberry workers think when they see these college student descend on them? How 'bout: "THANK GOD! With most of society turning their backs on us, these educated young people are coming here to actually help us!"

Seriously, California has a long history of mistreating and looking down up its migrant workforce. These college kids, whom you so snidely dismiss, are probably going to be a blessing to them. Not only will they help them improve their working conditions and educate them on relevant labor laws--but they will also show them that at least some people in our society still care!

How can some earnest college kid, with even the best intentions, educate migrant workers about labor laws? Community Studies is not a law degree. How, exactly, is a college kid going to improve the working conditions for migrant workers?
I admire anyone who wishes to help the poor and disenfrachised, but you also need some actual real-world expertise to do some real good.

[Balduran]

Yup, I'm sure those Mexican strawberry pickers would much rather have somebody help them understand a Hitchcock film than some assistance picking strawberries.

[Darwin's Finch]

Originally posted by Kyla
Then I noticed who the OP was. FTR, even sven does in fact attend my alma mater. The delightful place where they tried to outlaw hate (a technicality kept it off the ballot in 2000), have already succeeded in outlawing nuclear weapons, where the city council regularly issues statements concerning foreign policy (they highly disapprove of the Chinese takeover of Tibet - watch out, Beijing!) - and where on any given day, you'll see kids sleeping on the sidewalk.

Sounds like Berkeley....

[jayjay]

Originally posted by Mr. Frink
What would these strawberry workers think when they see these college student descend on them? How 'bout: "THANK GOD! With most of society turning their backs on us, these educated young people are coming here to actually help us!" Seriously, California has a long history of mistreating and looking down up its migrant workforce. These college kids, whom you so snidely dismiss, are probably going to be a blessing to them. Not only will they help them improve their working conditions and educate them on relevant labor laws--but they will also show them that at least some people in our society still care!

A bunch of college kids is going to improve the migrant workers' working conditions? How? And if it's that easy, why hasn't the annual influx of such college kids effected a change yet?

This whole concept smacks of paternalism to me. "Oh, those wonderful rich white kids! They're coming to help us poor Mexican farm workers!"

I imagine that the more likely reaction would be, "Look, more hands to help harvest! Wait...why are they picking one strawberry for every five I pick? They're so SLOW! And why don't they shut up instead of droning on and on how badly we're treated?! They're driving us crazy! Oh, gee, they went home at lunch...at least it's quiet now..."

I just have a visceral reaction to the idea that any minority ethnic and/or economic group is expected to be grateful that one of the least-influential segments of the majority society is willing to be acknowledge their existence, mostly in a condescending manner. Or that the solution to any of their problems must come from outside.

That wasn't very coherent, I'm afraid...I just have trouble articulating why this whole thing gives me the social willies.

jayjay

[Michael Ellis]

Originally posted by jayjay
That wasn't very coherent, I'm afraid...I just have trouble articulating why this whole thing gives me the social willies.

Well, it was coherent enough for me.

[even sven]

I wrote a big long response somewhere, but it seems to have gotten lost. Oh well...I'll return to this when I get home from classes.....

In the meantime, my boyfriend does computers for the UFW, not the AFW as I typed it.

[The Red Menace]

To those who wish to escape their too liberal universities may I welcome you to North Dakota State University. Here it is acceptable to talk of being "jewed" in a bad business deal, "faggot" is in every day slang, and the creationists frequently attempt to overrun anthropology and biology classes.

Believe me, all of you at rich kid liberal colleges, the flip side is much worse.

[Maeglin]

The Dead Kennedys wrote a song about these kinds of people. One of my favorite songs in the masterful DK opus.

I bring you....

Holiday in Cambodia

[Balduran]

jayjay, it's obvious you have no experience in development. The students in this field are very commited and spend a large amount of their time thinking about the sorts of issues you accuse them of. They're not stupid you know, and what do you suppose they study in their courses? These social willies you have problems articulating sound more like guilt that other people are trying to affect change more than you.

[andros]

Matt, in using the term "neo-liberal" (with a deliberate hyphenation), I was referring to the sort of kids mentioned in the OP--the young, idealistic college students eager to embrace any liberal ideal that happens to make themselves feel good. I suppose I could have used a different term, but I thought it would be evident in context to whom I was referring. Sorry 'bout that.

[Truth Seeker]

I did a community studies course once that consisted mostly of sitting on couches in the women's center and bitching about life and reading fairly simplistic feminist musings. It was a great class- we all need to take a break every once in a while and do something fun.

Whoa! Pahtay!


You think this is new even sven? As Maeglin points out, people write popular songs about it.

We are the folk song army,
Every one of us cares.
We all hate poverty, war, and injustice
Unlike the rest of you squares.

There are innocuous folk songs, yeah,
But we regard 'em with scorn.
The folks who sing 'em have no social conscience,
Why, they don't even care if Jimmy Crack Corn.

If you feel dissatisfaction,
Strum your frustrations away.
Some people may prefer action,
But give me a folk song any old day.

"We Are the Folk Song Army" (1965) by Tom Lehrer (who, I believe, teaches at Santa Cruz)

[Mr. Frink]

Originally posted by gobear
How can some earnest college kid, with even the best intentions, educate migrant workers about labor laws? Community Studies is not a law degree. How, exactly, is a college kid going to improve the working conditions for migrant workers?
I admire anyone who wishes to help the poor and disenfrachised, but you also need some actual real-world expertise to do some real good.

These "earnest college kids" may not have law degrees, but they will provide a valuable tool: knowledge. They'll know all the details of the history of migrant labor organization in the U.S. And not only will they have read all about Cesar Chavez ; but many of them will want to be Cesar Chavez !!! As the course description for one of the Community Studies classes puts it: The goal of this seminar is to learn how to organize a revolution.

And let's not kid ourselves...these student won't be just walking into a strawberry patch rallying the workers--I'm sure that they will work hand-in-hand with the Farmworker's Union. If you've ever been involved with a labor union you'll know that one of the biggest problems they face is stagnation. These kids will provide a pure shot of energy. And not only will they come armed with the latest ideas and tactics from labor movements worldwide, but they'll also be able to provide help in organizing, growing and strengthening the union of farmworkers.

So: New Ideas & Tactics + Energy of idealistic students == Stronger Union == Better working conditions!

[Michael Ellis]

Originally posted by Mr. Frink
The goal of this seminar is to learn how to organize a revolution.

Oh, that's encouraging.

[Jonathan Chance]

Originally posted by Mr. Frink
but many of them will want to be Cesar Chavez !!!

And, human nature being what it is...1 in 10 will actually try to be Chavez and 1 in 100 of those will actually manage to do something.

The rest will become ad executives for firms based in second tier cities because the early movers got the NYC and LA gigs.

[John Corrado]

All I can say is that anyone who defines being vegetarian as "brave" deserves whatever shit is flung at them.

[Michael Ellis]

Originally posted by John Corrado
All I can say is that anyone who defines being vegetarian as "brave" deserves whatever shit is flung at them.

Well, hopefully it's vegan shit.

[Balduran]

The rest will become ad executives for firms based in second tier cities because the early movers got the NYC and LA gigs.

Or maybe the rest will go on to found free eyeglass distributors or drill bore-holes so that villagers don't have to walk 5 miles for water, or set up apiculture programs for supplementary income, or teach at mission schools like the one Nelson Mandela went to, or start paper recyling programs so that kids can have affordable writing paper , ...

Maybe they don't want to be like Chavez at all because they realize how stupid that would be. Maybe they just want to contribute to making peoples lives a bit easier or provide them more opportunities.

[kabbes]

Actually John, I think that it is bravery of a sort to be vegetarian:

• You get scorn from the majority of the population
• You get hassle most days of your life from the majority of the population
• It makes going out to eat much trickier
• It makes food preparation much trickier
• If, as the kabbess does, you actually love meat, it is a daily battle against temptation
• And you're doing all this simply because of an ethical position

That qualifies as bravery in my book, whether or not you happen to share the ethical belief that leads to it.

pan

::sits back and waits for the inevitable Über-hijack on vegetarianism to kick off... Please prove me wrong guys, we've already done that to death::

[Michael Ellis]

Originally posted by Balduran
Or maybe the rest will go on to found free eyeglass distributors or drill bore-holes so that villagers don't have to walk 5 miles for water, or set up apiculture programs for supplementary income, or teach at mission schools like the one Nelson Mandela went to, or start paper recyling programs so that kids can have affordable writing paper , ...

Or maybe they'll just flake out and end up picking strawberries for a living because they wasted all their money on field trips to the local Vegan Foods Co-op and Revolutionary Training Center.

[Necros]

kabbes said:

Actually John, I think that it is bravery of a sort to be vegetarian:
You get scorn from the majority of the population
You get hassle most days of your life from the majority of the population
It makes going out to eat much trickier
...
And you're doing all this simply because of an ethical position
That qualifies as bravery in my book, whether or not you happen to share the ethical belief that leads to it.

Of course, the people even sven was talking about were going to a vegetarian commune in Colorado, most likely in Boulder. Vegetarianism there isn't quite the brave journey you describe in your post.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

I used to work for a nonprofit that was associated with a farmworkers' union drive in North Carolina. One of our organizers took a group of activists on a weeklong trip to talk with migrant laborers, to coordinate strategies between different organizations and to gather information to disseminate to other groups.

When he came back, he was spitting mad about two college girls who'd gone on the trip. They were arrogant; they tried to control the whole trip (which he'd spent more than a month planning), they flirted with the workers and made the group constantly late from place to place. He swore he'd never work with college students again.

On the other hand, I've known college students who worked with farmworkers' unions and who were great. College kids *can* do a lot of good in these circumstances, I think.

Organizing drives are primarily informatin-based. You need to gather stories about mistreatment from workers; you need to let workers know what their rights are under the law; you need to distribute union literature and explain what a union can do; and you need to go back to your own community and encourage people to support the drive, either through boycotts, through highly-visible protests, through letters to companies, or through financial support.

If you go on an organizing drive and you spend your time picking strawberries, you're dramatically missing the point. You don't help people in bad conditions by mimicking their conditions; you help them by finding out what they need doing and doing it.

Daniel

[John Corrado]

Originally posted by kabbes
Actually John, I think that it is bravery of a sort to be vegetarian:

• You get scorn from the majority of the population
• You get hassle most days of your life from the majority of the population

• I find that a bit overstated. I know plenty of vegetarians, and I've never seen them scorned either to their faces or behind their backs. At least, not scorned so long as they didn't scorn the meat-eaters first. Of course, I'm not a vegan, so I can't really speak on the amount of scorn and hassle heaped upon you.
  
  

  It makes going out to eat much trickier

  It makes food preparation much trickier

  And "trickier" means "brave"? I'm sorry, that's just wrong.
  
  Having to wade through protestors and people who hate you so that you can exercise your rights as a human being: brave.
  
  Having to drive an extra fifteen minutes because Applebee's doesn't offer as good a salad menu as T.G.I.Friday's: inconvenient.
  
  
  

  If, as the kabbess does, you actually love meat, it is a daily battle against temptation

  And you're doing all this simply because of an ethical position

That qualifies as bravery in my book, whether or not you happen to share the ethical belief that leads to it.

By that logic, I'm a brave man for having quit smoking. After all, it's a daily battle against temptation (I did *enjoy* smoking). I don't buy that. We can talk about willpower and strength of convictions- but that doesn't mean bravery to me. No one's going to beat you or your wife up for being vegan. At worst, you have to be a bit pickier about where you shop or go out for dinner, and occasionally you have to suffer from rude idiots. That's not bravery.

[kabbes]

So something is only a brave action if it involves wading through fifteen minutes worth of protesters or having your wife beaten up?

For the record, I am not vegetarian. I still think that making a choice that makes your life more difficult just because you think it is ethically correct is a brave act however. Doing it in the face of hostility (and you do face hostility, of a kind that you wouldn't realise at all until you've had to walk in their shoes) makes it a little braver. It isn't of the level of selling up and moving to sub-Saharan Africa to build water pumps, but it still takes courage of character.

Your giving up cigarettes was

(a) a sacrifice to benefit you not an ethical decision taken because you thought it was right; and
(b) something that you would have presumably been supported in, not sneered at for.

Nevertheless it was a brave thing to do, from a certain point of view. Only a little brave, possibly. Certainly not even in the same league as choosing not to eat something you like and that society says you should just because you think it is wrong. But accepting any challenge takes some level of bravery. Even a selfish challenge.

Nevertheless I do take Necros' point about the commune.

pan

[gobear]

Hey, I had a salad for lunch, so where's my Medal of Honor? C'mon, it had cucumbers and everything--damn, I'm brave.

[Bad News Baboon]

the way I see it, those girls don't win for trying.

in scenario a:

rich girl purses liberal degree.
-well, what a phony bitch she is.

rich girl pursues biz. degree
-well, so fucking typical of a rich person to not give a shit. to only give a shit about money.


in scenario B:

rich girl decides to get a liberal degree...

she decides to not pursue school sponsored trips, etc.
-well, what a little sheltered rich girl. what use is her degree if she doesn't know what it's like in the real world.


she decides to take trips, etc:
-well who does she think she is? Little miss moneybags wondering around a strawberry field. how 'impressive'. I wonder if she has a gucci bag to put all those strawberries in.


in Scenario C:

she decides to pursue vegetarianism
-well what does she know about vegetarianism? (insert all rant 'meat eaters' sling to 'veggies')

she decides not to pursue vegetarianism
-well, (insert all rants 'veggies' sling at 'meat eaters')

I just don't see how the girl could win when you already have an additude towards them to begin with.

Is the girl niave? perhaps, yes. but weren't we all? and arent we all STILL, in situations that are new and foreign to us?


further more,
the OP claims that one spent a long time reading books, etc. and the implication of what a waste it is.

Well, perhaps in all her reading she learned useful things such as not all 'brown skinned' latinos are Mexican. Pretty ignorant of the op to call all laborers Mexicans, for being such a Liberal. Many pickers come from Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador. This is just another example of how the OP puts down someone for the same stuff another would find her guilty of. The OP may think all Latinos can be bundled under the heading of "mexican' but to us Latinos, we are NOT all the same. Its like calling English people Americans, cause you know, we all look the same and talk the same. Maybe the OP should borrow some of those books herself.

and rich girls are belittled because they went on a trip to a 3rd world country instead of applying the money to a cause here.

Even Sven, I have to ask you, what are YOU doing for the cause? What specifically makes YOU a more worthy of the liberal moniker?

Shall we start going through your life choices, expenses, etc and put them on a chart to see where you fall? Hmmmm, those shoes you're wearing. Why arent you wearing rope sandals? or better yet, barefoot?
Jesh, you could have donated the remainding money to a worthy cause, no?

In the end, I feel that the smallest deed accomplishes more than the grandest intentions. And these girls, though they may not be going about it the best way, are at least trying.

Even Sven, sweetie, there's something on your shoulder. It's called a chip. You may want to do something about it.

[even sven]

Oh come on, I am a vegetarian and it is the biggest not a big deal on earth. It is super not a big deal when you live in a nice happy veggie commune where you don't even face the minscule challenges that vegetarians face in regular life.

My problem isn't that they have money- some of my very best friends are affluent and liberal and they are still pretty cool. But it does seem like having money is a prerequisite for this kind of arrogance. It costs money to buy airplane tickets to those protests about how other people should get more money. It costs money to waste your time in college not learning.

Did you know that you can volunteer as much as you want, but if you want credit for it you pay full tuition? I've got a problem with that. If you volunteer because you are a good person, you do okay. But if you volunteer and pay thousands of dollars, you get a degree.

I am all about volunteering (something I don't do a lot myself) but it is not a good thing when you are condescending towards the people you are trying to help. Once I was in a typical 'liberal indoctornation class'. I didn't talk about my background until the last day. That turned out to be a really good idea. After I talked about where I grew up and that sort of thing, people started treating me really differently. I became the subject of their liberal guilt. They would talk to me in hushed tones about how much they admire my courage and that sort of thing. I changed instantly in their eyes from "Jennifer"' to "poor kid". I felt like an animal in the zoo. Hey, let's go look at the real live poor kid! Maybe we can get it to talk about how opressed it was in the ghetto! It was really demeaning and made me uncomfortable and feel like a freak. I can only imagine how much worse it is to be visibly different.

I do think it is a good thing that people from our school are helping to organize strawberry workers. I just wish that more people would realize that these are real live people with real lifes that are important- not an insignifigant pet project that you can walk in to instantly expect them to be grateful. I wish they'd learn that things arn't going to be cut and dried. The answers arn't so easy that you can send over a bunch of college girls to make the problems go away. And I wish they'd recognize that they while they get to return to their warm beds at night, these people are stuck in their lives. I'm not saying that the girls have to be poor or anything like that, they just need to acknowledge and understand their privledge and think about what it means.

A classmate of mine went out to make a documentary about the fields that she worked in when she was a child. She was harrased and whistled at by the workers. She was nearly beat up by the owner of the field. It wasn't as simple as "I'm a college student and therefore I get to do whatever I want and everyone is going to be cool with that". A lot of Mexican people are conflicted about how they feel about a lot of issues. The unions can get corrupt. The culture can get misogynist. It isn't white man bad mexican man good. It is complex. You have to sit down and talk to these people on their own level for a while. Eat thanksgiving dinner at their house. Play Nintendo with their son. Maybe then you'll be ready to understand the issues. But I have a feeling that as much as these girls talk about helping the Mexicans, they'd be hard pressed to talk to one in a non-condescending manner. That'd mean they'd have to them as people, not school projects, and frankly I am skepticle that they are capable of that. These are the same people after all, that read all kinds of multicultural this and that, but when confronted with the set of dorms that have a high amount of ethinic diversity, they get a little freaked out and then start talking about how "ghetto" they are. It never even occurs to them that that goes against all the ideology they claim to espouse.

There are college students that are doing good things. There are college students that are doing great things. This brand of student isn't one of them.

Yes, there are sour grapes here. The people I grew up with didn't get to go to college because they went to a school that didn't have things like guidance couselers and AP classes and college fairs. My friends are now stubling through junior college, trying not to get bored to death or lured away in to the world of work. And yet our colleges are stuffed full with people that would rather die than take an actual class and walk around talking about how much they are helping the poor (hint: I don't see anyone I grew up with better off- all I see is them not getting in to college so that these girls can use those spots to "help" people like the people I grew up with). I'm more than a little bitter. I know life isn't fair, but knowing that doesn't make it suck any less.

I don't know what the answer is. It all comes down to the fact that we need more diversity in our neighborhoods so that people grow up looking at people that are different from them as friends, not freaks. Short of that, I'd like to see the Community Studies major reformed so that it isn't essentially buying a degree. I'd like to see a more complex approuch to the issues, a more scholarly outlook (and maybe I am being a hardass traditionalist here- but in my experience people that are exposed to more complex theory tend to come up with less simplistic realities). Majors like this can be a really good thing. But treating everything problem as one of simplistic bianaries isn't a good thing.

[Balduran]

Most of the development students around here are actually quite broke. They raise money for their trips by working part-time or fundraising activites like dinner parties in church basements where they all get together to make food and provide entertainment.