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Old 04-30-2002, 07:45 AM
HeyHomie HeyHomie is offline
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What is the Politically Correct Way to Refer to Blacks in Other Countries?

Here in America, we're supposed to refer to blacks as African Americans.

So what's the most politically correct way to refer to a black in England? An African Briton? In France an African Frenchman?

How about in a country where the vast majority are black, but there are a few non-blacks? In Jamaica are blacks African Jamaicans while whites are European Jamaicans?

Or are people not so hopelessly uptight outside of the US?
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Old 04-30-2002, 07:53 AM
friedo friedo is offline
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"Black people" works just fine in 99% of situations. Both of the style guides I currently have handy (1999 versions) list "black person" or "person who is black" as acceptable. "African American" seems to be a bit of overhyped PC-ness about which only a small majority of black people really care about. (That's been my experience working briefly in mass media and in talking with black people.)
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Old 04-30-2002, 07:59 AM
grimpixie grimpixie is offline
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In the UK, they are refered to (officially) as Afro-Carribean.

In South Africa, my homeland, there was a bit of a PC-two-step during the transition to democracy over how to refer to the darkest skinned (and now the ruling) members of society, but common usage has returned to simply Black or African. Under Apartheid they had been variously refered to as Bantu, Ndebele or simply kaffir (the SA version of the dreaded n*-word). At the same time, there were a number of non-PC alternatives, of which my favorite was non-reflective

Gp
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Old 04-30-2002, 08:18 AM
Mersavets Mersavets is offline
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Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander is the unwieldy, bureaucratic way of labeling black people in Australia. Indigenous Australians is another. Eventually, politicised blacks promoted the word Koori to denote their people as a way to reclaim their identity without resort to a European derived label. However, this is not universally accepted in black communities as it may still be considered a foreign word. One man's Koori is another man's Nunga which in turn, is another's Murray.

Blackfella is also pretty common (amongst aboriginals) and surprisingly, isn't used the same way Nigger seems to be amongst black Americans.
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Old 04-30-2002, 09:05 AM
Summers_Son Summers_Son is offline
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We just call em people, who cared where the parents are from...
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Old 04-30-2002, 09:16 AM
alciabiades the fair alciabiades the fair is offline
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Since you surely have a valid reason for specifying "black" why not ask the people you're talking about directly? Or is too PC just to ask someone how they'd like to be referred to?

I mean, imagine my surprise when I found out that white people preferred PC "white" rather than my friendly, all in good fun "cracker bastards." Who knew people were so uptight, eh?

Okay, sorry to be harsh, but I always get a little suspicious when people ask these sort of questions and get answers from people who are not black. It really makes a great deal of sense to go to the "experts" if you are honestly asking because you don't want to offend.
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Old 04-30-2002, 09:42 AM
mnemosyne mnemosyne is offline
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Although, to be fair, not everyone lives in an area where there are a high percentage of black people, and not everyone happens to know one. Personally, I know a lot more people with chinese, korean and japanese ancestry (as well as the standard mix of English/Scottish/Irish/Dutch etc for white canadians in Ontario) than I do people with african ancestry. Not that this area doesn't have black people - I just don't know them, and so, who would I ask? You don't just walk up to a random stranger on the street and ask what they consider to be PC, do you? You might be suspicious (of what, though?), but you do not know the context under which this was asked. Perhaps rastahomie is asking because he has to write an essay. Or, perhaps this question was aimed at the black people on these boards (there are some, you know), and white people chose to contribute their point of view.
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Old 04-30-2002, 10:08 AM
Lamia Lamia is offline
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Re: What is the Politically Correct Way to Refer to Blacks in Other Countries?

Quote:
Originally posted by rastahomie

How about in a country where the vast majority are black, but there are a few non-blacks? In Jamaica are blacks African Jamaicans while whites are European Jamaicans?
How do you refer to white people from countries where the vast majority are white? It is rarely necessary to refer to "white Germans", and it is similarly rarely necessary to specify the race of someone from an African or Caribbean nation. Generally one refers to Africans by their ethnic group. As best as I can tell about Jamaica (I used to have a Jamaican roommate, but I've never been to Jamaica so I'm certainly no expert), white people there are called "white". They are a distinct minority. Almost everyone else in Jamaica has some African ancestry, and so people there rarely feel the need to point it out.

While I never knew any Jamaicans in the US to object to the blanket term "black", in Jamaica the word seems to be commonly used only for people with quite dark skin and not for people of African descent in general. I have known a few people from other Caribbean nations to object to "black" and insist upon being refered to by nationality (Trinidadian, etc.). I suspect this is due to a wish to avoid a common problem experienced by many Caribbeans in the US, that of being assumed to be culturally identical to African-Americans based solely on their skin color.
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Old 04-30-2002, 11:31 AM
psychonaut psychonaut is offline
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Originally posted by Summers_Son
We just call em people, who cared where the parents are from...
Hear, hear. But then again, there are some cases in which it may be helpful to draw attention to the race or physical appearance of a person. For example, if we agree to meet somewhere in person for the first time and you don't have a photograph you can send me, I would think that, in many cases, telling me your skin colour would help me identify you in a crowd.
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Old 04-30-2002, 12:25 PM
Guinastasia Guinastasia is offline
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One of my professors, who is from Russia, says he still finds it amusing to be referred to as a "white" man, since in Russia, traditionally White would mean you were a part of the anti-Bolshevik movement after the Revolution.

He also laughs when called "Caucasian"-since he IS truly Caucasian-he's from the Caucasus mountains, and so he always tells us that he's the only "true" Caucasian on campus!

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Old 04-30-2002, 12:28 PM
syncrolecyne syncrolecyne is offline
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This thread brings up an important difference. In North America, "black" is almost always used to describe so called sub-Saharan Africans and their descendants. In Britain, Australia, New Zealand and elsewhere it can be used to describe Australian Aborigines, South Asians, Pacific Islanders such as the Maori - and other people who are not African - but brown skinned.
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Old 04-30-2002, 12:37 PM
nineiron nineiron is offline
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I know I've probably told this anecdote here before, but it's fitting here:

My senior seminar in college dealt with utopian and dystopian literature. One of the more fantasy-themed novels (no clue anymore what the title was, or the author) described a distant planet inhabited by blacks. Since this was never concretely stated, but merely hinted at, one very PC gal timidly asked the professor, "Um, are they...African American?"

My roommate (the only other guy in the class, as I recall) had to correct her: "No, they're black. They are neither African nor American, because, you see, they're on ANOTHER PLANET!"

Cracked me up.

Seriously, though, I'm a white guy that tends to simply say "black," and I haven't run into anyone yet who objects. Maybe I'm just not in a very sensitive part of the country; who knows?
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Old 04-30-2002, 12:58 PM
alciabiades the fair alciabiades the fair is offline
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Consider my harshness as tossing my grain of salt in with the replies to highlight the fact that the overwhelming response was not from the black members of the board.

(And you'll kindly note the apology and explanation that followed, yes?)

To be fair to me, it wasn't that harsh and in my book no more impolite or less teasing than "hopelessly uptight" and the slight mockery of the need to acknowledge race in America.

Now, having gotten rid of my need to harp defensively, I'll bow out so we can return to the international term poll at hand.

For the record, as an American, I prefer black over hyphenation, but I rarely get offended at polite and well meaning variations thereof.
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Old 04-30-2002, 01:24 PM
Guinastasia Guinastasia is offline
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Um, how do you know some of us aren't black?
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Old 04-30-2002, 01:30 PM
Loopus Loopus is offline
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In Brazil, the proper term is negro (pronounced neg-roo), which is derived the same way the English word "Negro" is. To use the Portuguese word for black (preto) would be considered somewhat insulting.

-Loopus
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Old 04-30-2002, 01:39 PM
alciabiades the fair alciabiades the fair is offline
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In a sentence, I don't.

Back to the defensive harping to elaborate: At the time of my original post (Mersavets was the last post I had read), the few replies read from an other than black perspective. I took "they" as a fair indicator of that. Mersavets was the most racially neutral at the time. Thus, I didn't feel untoward for pointing out that out as something to consider.
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Old 04-30-2002, 01:45 PM
clairobscur clairobscur is offline
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In France, they're called "noirs" (blacks) or sometimes "africains" (africans). People of mixed blood from the french indies would usually be called "antillais". "negre" (nigger) is extremely offensive. I don't remember having personally heard it, though there's no doubt it sometimes is. On the other hand "negritude" (niggerness), which was coined by an "antillais" writer, and refers to black culture and specially litterature has a positive meaning but is extremely rarely used.


And to respond to Alcibiades who is suspicious about answers given by white people, I would say that this is a non-issue, here. I never heard anyone claiming that black people should be called in any other way. There's no "PC" word I ever heard about in France. So, despite being white, I feel I confident in my statement. I assume Alcibiade's opinion is somewhat "provincial", based on a peculiarity of American culture.

Oh...I forgot....amongst the youth, the english word "black" in often used instead of "noir".
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Old 04-30-2002, 01:47 PM
monstro monstro is offline
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Quote:
Here in America, we're supposed to refer to blacks as African Americans.
I do not think there is a law saying that we have to call anyone anything. Personally, you can call me black, Negro, African American, colored, brown, etc. and I won't mind.

Quote:
So what's the most politically correct way to refer to a black in England? An African Briton? In France an African Frenchman?
Well, what would you call a white in England or France?

If the guy's race was important, I would say "black" just because that's the term we use in the US to describe people descended from Africans. But if it isn't, I would give more weight to nationality.

Because race is socially constructed anyway, I think it matters who your audience is when you're referring to someone's race. Saying someone is "black" in Australian has different connatations than in the US. And "African American" to someone from African means something entirely different to Americans.
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Old 04-30-2002, 01:51 PM
Quercus Quercus is offline
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If you're trying to describe a person with dark skin, well, how about 'person with dark skin'? Or 'dark-skinned person', if you want something shorter, similar to red-haired or one-legged or whatever else you use to describe someone's appearance.

If you're trying to refer to a cultural group, then the best word to use obviously changes according to which group. Here in the U.S., I think 'African-American culture' is pretty accurate, accepted and neutral. Obviously, if you're referring to people living in London of Jamaican culture, then 'Jamaican' would be a better description. Other cultural/ethnic groups may have their own preferred words they'd like used to describe them, but of course it varies.

'Black' is not a very useful a word, because it doesn't distinguish between skin color and culture. There are a lot of dark-skinned latinos where I live, who have very little connection to African-American culture.

(and in English, at least, the word 'black' tends to have all kinds of other associations with evil and badness, making it kind of unsuitable for neutrally describing someone).
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Old 04-30-2002, 05:30 PM
InstantCrisis InstantCrisis is offline
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I agree with Quercus that culture is important when referring to a group with a word, and there's not much African about most black Americans' culture.

Also, I have friends who are offended by "African-American" because they do not consider themselves of African ancestry (one is Creole and the other is something else). They prefer "black." Besides, isn't everyone of African ancestry? At how many generations is the cutoff? I get angry when people say I am not an American. 15 isn't enough? Why complicate things with hyphens and history?

Only in psych and other formal essays do I use "African-American" and "Euro-American." Damn the APA.

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Old 04-30-2002, 05:48 PM
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How about "Rasta(far)ian" ?
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Old 04-30-2002, 05:51 PM
Colibri Colibri is offline
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Here in Panama a good percentage of the population is tri-racial (European, African, and Amerindian in various proportions), and a lot also have some Chinese, Middle Eastern, or South Asian ancestry, so there's less tendency to put people into arbitrary categories. However, people of mostly African background are often referred to as moreno (brown). Negro (black) is OK to use for objects, but I believe is considered somewhat offensive when used for a person. Moreno is almost never used for objects or animals; instead they say chocolate (chocolate colored) or pardo (dark).

People of mostly Amerindian appearance are called cholo, which is not generally regarded as offensive.

The elite, which tends to be lighter-skinned than the poorer classes, are called rabiblancos ("white-tails," or "white-rumps"). This refers both to a local kind of pigeon that struts around pompously with its chest puffed out, and to having a white butt.
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Old 05-01-2002, 07:23 PM
dqa dqa is offline
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Hijack: Several have asked what whites are called in France, Germany, etc, as if this is a silly question. This is not at all the case. Considering the large immigrant populations from Turkey and Africa, there must arise a need to refer specifically to Europeans of local ancestry, in contrast to minority groups. What do they call "whites" in various European countries?

Colibri: Is use of rabiblancos considered an insult, a good-natured jibe, or simply accepted use? And, is this term limited to Panama, or is it also used in Colombia or other parts of Central America?
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Old 05-01-2002, 08:14 PM
jiHymas jiHymas is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Guinastasia
One of my professors, who is from Russia, says he still finds it amusing to be referred to as a "white" man, since in Russia, traditionally White would mean you were a part of the anti-Bolshevik movement after the Revolution.

He also laughs when called "Caucasian"-since he IS truly Caucasian-he's from the Caucasus mountains, and so he always tells us that he's the only "true" Caucasian on campus!

I can't claim to be an expert on Russian slang, but I believe that ethnic Russians would call him "black" - certainly that is a reference to Chechens, although I don't know whether it would be considered pejoritive or offensive.

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Old 05-01-2002, 10:26 PM
Rysdad Rysdad is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by clairobscur
In France, they're called "noirs" (blacks) or sometimes "africains" (africans).
One of the residents where I work was talking about this, and he calls himself french. Evidently, he has some distant Tunisian ancestors, but his family has been in France for generations. He's not American (he's here on a student visa), and he doesn't like being referred to as an African American...which he's not, but everyone assumes he is. Understandable.
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Old 05-01-2002, 10:53 PM
Lamia Lamia is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by dqa
Hijack: Several have asked what whites are called in France, Germany, etc, as if this is a silly question. This is not at all the case. Considering the large immigrant populations from Turkey and Africa, there must arise a need to refer specifically to Europeans of local ancestry, in contrast to minority groups. What do they call "whites" in various European countries?
I believe the Germans do use the term "white" (well, "weiss"), but I suspect that that they rarely need to even in the situation you describe. Until German immigration and naturalization laws changed a couple of years ago it was a rather lengthy and difficult process for anyone who was not an ethnic German to gain German citizenship, and it's still not easy for anyone who wasn't born in Germany. So while there is a large resident alien population in Germany most actual German citizens are white. As a result, I suspect that "German" ("Deutschlander/in") usually suffices to indicate local whites, although any Germans or German residents should feel free to correct me here.

It may interest you to know that some foreigners apparently consider "American" synonymous with "white American"; I have often used the term used that way by exchange students at my school.
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Old 05-01-2002, 11:21 PM
Major Feelgud Major Feelgud is offline
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In the UK, to avoid saying white or black, someone might refer to a white guy as "Sam? He's English (or Welsh, or Irish or Scottish)". Or someone might say "Sam? he's Asian, or Jamacian, or Chinese." Or they might say he's white or black.

Because (large scale) immigration has been a fairly recent thing in Europe, nobody refers to whites as whites, they are just French or German or Belgian, others are just refered to by their ethnic roots, even if they were born there.

In the UK, Asian refers to ethnic Indians or Pakistanis. In the US, Asian usually refers to anyone but Indians. Indians are refered to as Indians, or Indian Indians as opposed to Native Americans.
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Old 05-01-2002, 11:45 PM
OpalCat OpalCat is offline
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I don't think that in the US the term "black" is solely used to distinguish people of African descent. I think it is used for dark skinned people in general. At least that is how I've always known it to be used, but I've only lived here for 30 years, what do I know? hehe. I don't use the term "African American" because I think it is ridiculous and contrived.

Sure it may be preferable to refer to someone as "Jamaican" or whatever, but what if you don't know? Say I want to point out the tshirt on a guy over there. There is a group of guys. "the guy to the left of the black guy" may be the easiest way to describe which one I mean, if it is the most obvious distinguishing feature in the group. Another group may have a really tall man, so that is the "landmark" you would choose. I think it is sort of silly that people are so afraid to refer to race. Skin color is no scarier than hair color. Pretending it doesn't exist makes no sense. JUDGING someone based on it is bad, but acknowledging it? What is the big deal? I guess I just don't "get" those people with the "why do you need to refer to their race at all" attitude.
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Old 05-02-2002, 02:11 AM
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I think that the intent behind whatever term is used is what counts, not the term itself. Some people use the word "coloured people" because in the era they grew up, it was offensive to say "black." "Coloured" is often now considered offensive. But if the speaker has no ill or racist intent, and is using the politest term they are aware of, where's the problem?

As mentioned above, many Australian aboriginal people are called "blackfellas" - amongst themselves and by white Australians. I have heard white Australians use this term both in a positive and a derogatory way.

It's the speaker that is the problem, not the word. That's why oversensitivity and political correctness is a crock of damaging shit. Done politely, I couldn't care less if a non-white person referred to me as "colourless" "pale" "pink" or "white."

I totally agree with OpalCat about the paranoia about mentioning skin colour. Once we start to see it as just another varying indentifying feature like hair colour (artificial or natural) or hair style, then the loaded "race" thing starts to go away.
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Old 05-02-2002, 08:21 AM
Lamia Lamia is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by OpalCat
I don't think that in the US the term "black" is solely used to distinguish people of African descent. I think it is used for dark skinned people in general. At least that is how I've always known it to be used, but I've only lived here for 30 years, what do I know? hehe. I don't use the term "African American" because I think it is ridiculous and contrived.
Have you really ever heard a person not of African descent refered to as black? I've known several very dark-skinned Indians and Sri Lankans, and it would never occur to me to call them "black". I can't imagine any other American doing so, except by mistake.

This is why I like the term "African-American", as it more clearly indicates what I have found to be the standard meaning of "black" in the US. Although "black" seems to be a reference to skin color, it is used even for very light-skinned African-Americans, and in my experience is never used even for very dark-skinned people who are not of African descent.
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Old 05-02-2002, 01:12 PM
Colibri Colibri is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by dqa
Colibri: Is use of rabiblancos considered an insult, a good-natured jibe, or simply accepted use? And, is this term limited to Panama, or is it also used in Colombia or other parts of Central America?
I would say it's a semi-derogatory term used by lower class Panamanians about the elite. (Maybe a bit more insulting than say "white bread" in the US.) A rabiblanco would probably not use the term in reference to him/herself. I don't know if it extends beyond Panama, although I have never heard it anywhere else.

Unlike parts of Mexico, gringo is pretty much regarded as a simple descriptive rather than derogatory. For example, once when I left my car at a garage for repairs I found my keys had been labeled "Jeep Rojo/Gringo" when I returned to pick it up.
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Old 05-02-2002, 03:45 PM
Sparc Sparc is offline
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Expounding on the European answers so far I would add…

‘Race’ is used less and less as a descriptive while origin is the norm across at least the majority of Western Europe. The largest population of dark skinned people live in England and France. In Europe north of The Alps there is a larger portion of recent Middle Eastern and Balkan immigrants than North Africa and Sub Saharan Africa. The former Eastern Block has its specifics in itself that are historically more complicated and frequently focused on more immediate and local ethnic issues (I take but Bosnia, Serbia and Yugoslavia as an all too blatant example).

Hence one should look at these areas somewhat differently. I’ll try to expand on a little on Germany;

In Germany the ‘dark skinned’ population is relatively small (then again some of the so called ‘white’ Germans aren’t that white), a large portion of ‘black’ people you meet here will incidentally be American, although the immigration from sub-Sahara has increased in the last ten years. The term ‘schwarz’ (black) would be considered the most polite descriptive, while ‘ein schwarze’ (a black) would be considered derogatory and ‘neger’ absolutely unacceptable. There is also a very large and alive Hip Hop and R&B culture amongst native and emigrant Germans that uses the English ‘black’ as an appreciative for anything that is ‘black’ American culture.

More importantly colloquial German makes a distinction along bloodline and origin for reasons pointed out in an earlier post by Lamia. Hence we ‘non-Germans’ are often clumped together, independent of skin color as ‘auslaender’ (foreigners), even when being the second generation that lives here. This is however increasingly frowned upon and country of origin is becoming more frequent, which we in our turn aren’t too pleased with – ’what does it matter we live here now, right?’ given my somewhat convoluted cultural background the most correct answer for me would be European, but more and more I just can’t be bothered and go ‘Sweden’ or ‘France’ or ‘America’ depending on my mood and what language I happen to be speaking when asked. Many Germans are rather extra sensitive about these issues due to certain well-publicized events in the past and sometimes it is rather comical to watch a PC German trying to navigate around the issue verbally without coming across as a racist or xenophobe.

Incidentally Sweden is simple; ‘svart’ (black) as a descriptive is all that is used and anything else including origin in relation to skin color or other phenotype would be considered racist and not PC.

Personally I’m all stumped by this stuff, I mean what’s the point? Good friends of mine had kids a good couple of years ago, he’s pretty dark skinned recently being of somewhat African origins while she has lily white, almost porcelain skin. Racist logic of phenotyping would give brown kids right? Wrong! Both daughters have whiter skin than me and I’m pretty darned white skinned… (well OK yucky pink then but still) while they got papas dark brown hair color. Angelic little girls, but what are they? ‘Race’ is nonsense and in any case has no biological basis.

Sparc
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Old 05-02-2002, 03:54 PM
Liberal Liberal is offline
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It really makes a great deal of sense to go to the "experts" if you are honestly asking because you don't want to offend.
Maybe. But I think I speak for most Cherokee (at least nearly all the ones I know) when I say that we much prefer to be called Indian over that salt-in-the-wound monicker, "Native American". The latter reminds us of our conqueror's ultimate victory, while the former reminds us of his original clutziness. But it looks like NA is here to stay despite anyone's wishes to the contrary.
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Old 05-02-2002, 04:01 PM
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‘Race’ is nonsense and in any case has no biological basis.
That is not quite correct. There are sufficient differences among the three primary races that estimation of height from tibia length, for example, takes them into account. Sex matters as well. See PBS Scientific American Dead Men's Tales There are also important medical differentiations. And other things. The differences imply nothing about intelligence or culture, but they cannot be summarily ignored.
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Old 05-02-2002, 04:42 PM
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Libertarian, hmm I believe that I’d be taking off on somewhat of a lengthy hijack by replying properly. IMHO you’re not completely wrong, but you’re off by a millimeter… You’re talking of geographically isolated population groups, there is no evidence for any distinctions that follow the popular notion of ‘race’. I could give you cites, but come on how many times has this issue been pulled through GD. On that note I don’t think this is quite the forum, and I surmise by reading the archives that most folks are tired of it popping up again and again in GD.

But if you wish…

I’ll tango

Sparc
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Old 05-02-2002, 04:45 PM
Sparc Sparc is offline
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Expounding on the European answers so far I would add…

‘Race’ is used less and less as a descriptive while origin is the norm across at least the majority of Western Europe. The largest population of dark skinned people live in England and France. In Europe north of The Alps there is a larger portion of recent Middle Eastern and Balkan immigrants than North Africa and Sub Saharan Africa. The former Eastern Block has its specifics in itself that are historically more complicated and frequently focused on more immediate and local ethnic issues (I take but Bosnia, Serbia and Yugoslavia as an all too blatant example).

Hence one should look at these areas somewhat differently. I’ll try to expand on a little on Germany;

In Germany the ‘dark skinned’ population is relatively small (then again some of the so called ‘white’ Germans aren’t that white), a large portion of ‘black’ people you meet here will incidentally be American, although the immigration from sub-Sahara has increased in the last ten years. The term ‘schwarz’ (black) would be considered the most polite descriptive, while ‘ein schwarze’ (a black) would be considered derogatory and ‘neger’ absolutely unacceptable. There is also a very large and alive Hip Hop and R&B culture amongst native and emigrant Germans that uses the English ‘black’ as an appreciative for anything that is ‘black’ American culture.

More importantly colloquial German makes a distinction along bloodline and origin for reasons pointed out in an earlier post by Lamia. Hence we ‘non-Germans’ are often clumped together, independent of skin color as ‘auslaender’ (foreigners), even when being the second generation that lives here. This is however increasingly frowned upon and country of origin is becoming more frequent, which we in our turn aren’t too pleased with – ’what does it matter we live here now, right?’ given my somewhat convoluted cultural background the most correct answer for me would be European, but more and more I just can’t be bothered and go ‘Sweden’ or ‘France’ or ‘America’ depending on my mood and what language I happen to be speaking when asked. Many Germans are rather extra sensitive about these issues due to certain well-publicized events in the past and sometimes it is rather comical to watch a PC German trying to navigate around the issue verbally without coming across as a racist or xenophobe.

Incidentally Sweden is simple; ‘svart’ (black) as a descriptive is all that is used and anything else including origin in relation to skin color or other phenotype would be considered racist and not PC.

Personally I’m all stumped by this stuff, I mean what’s the point? Good friends of mine had kids a good couple of years ago, he’s pretty dark skinned recently being of somewhat African origins while she has lily white, almost porcelain skin. Racist logic of phenotyping would give brown kids right? Wrong! Both daughters have whiter skin than me and I’m pretty darned white skinned… (well OK yucky pink then but still) while they got papas dark brown hair color. Angelic little girls, but what are they? ‘Race’ is nonsense and in any case has no biological basis.

Sparc
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  #37  
Old 05-02-2002, 06:32 PM
Sparc Sparc is offline
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Hey, I don't know how that happened.

Frightfully sorry about that everyone.

Mods: If you're up to it; please remove the second post.

THX and again sorry
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