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  #1  
Old 05-06-2002, 09:33 PM
Freudian Slit Freudian Slit is offline
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"Sixteen Candles"- Date Rape Scene?

Well, I was over at the Ms Forums (yes yes, don't say it), and someone mentioned how they used to like "Sixteen Candles" but then later found it horribly sexist, due to what is actually a date rape occurrence. I guess the whole thing with Farmer Ted and that girl doing it in the car was supposed to be it, but I've mainly seen the movie in bits and pieces. Neither of them really seemed to remember what happened, so I always took it as a somewhat innocent, if bizarre, part of the movie.

Also, would the inclusion of that Asian exchange student be considered racist? I thought he was pretty funny, especially after getting drunk in front of the grandparents, but maybe I'm not being PC enough.

Thanks in advance!
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  #2  
Old 05-06-2002, 09:40 PM
vivalostwages vivalostwages is offline
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Funny, but that scene never even occurred to me and I've seen the movie many times. What bothers me now is the scene in the kitchen after the wild party when Jake says that Caroline is passed out in his room upstairs and that he could violate her ten different ways if he wanted to. Ted says, "What are you waiting for?" Jake says he just isn't interested in her anymore!
Interesting what a difference twenty years can make in one's perspective, isn't it?
I admit to thinking Long Duck Dong is funny, if stereotyped.
But isn't Airplane full of stereotypes too? It's still funny.

Hey, no joke: I once had a student named Hung Wei Lo.

Admit it--you laughed.
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  #3  
Old 05-06-2002, 10:31 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is online now
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It's been a while since I saw 16 Candles, sometime in college. I do remember, however, being appalled at the passed-out-upstairs scene. If I recall correctly, doesn't the movie imply very heavily that the nerd did go upstairs and have sex with the passed-out girl? And then the next day she's all over him for being such a good lover?

Crikey. It sure looked like rape to me. But maybe I completely misinterpreted what happened.

At any rate, the jock DOES suggest that the nerd can rape the girl, and the movie seems completely okay with the suggestion. After all, she IS the jock's girl. He's just being generous!

Daniel
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  #4  
Old 05-06-2002, 11:07 PM
Lamia Lamia is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by DanielWithrow
It's been a while since I saw 16 Candles, sometime in college. I do remember, however, being appalled at the passed-out-upstairs scene. If I recall correctly, doesn't the movie imply very heavily that the nerd did go upstairs and have sex with the passed-out girl? And then the next day she's all over him for being such a good lover?

Crikey. It sure looked like rape to me. But maybe I completely misinterpreted what happened.
I think you've misremembered a bit, but the movie as I remember it is no better. IIRC, the jock puts his blonde girlfriend in the car with the nerd and tells him to drive her home. The girl is very drunk and mostly unconscious. She barely manages to question what is going on, but her boyfriend tells her that the nerd is her boyfriend and he is the nerd. The girlfriend is far enough out of it that she accepts this explanation. The nerd drives by his friend's house and shows them the girl in the car (photos are taken), and I believe the next scene shows nerd and blonde girl waking up in the car. She is, indeed, "all over him for being such a good lover".

I did not see this movie until I was 20, and was shocked and sickened by this casual depiction of date rape. The girl was obviously in no condition to consent to anything, and on top of that apparently believed that she was with her long-term boyfriend instead of a virtual stranger.
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  #5  
Old 05-07-2002, 12:13 AM
Melandry Melandry is offline
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See, where as I always assumed that they didn't *do* anything at all, since the relatively sober nerd doesn't remember it, and the girl claims she does remember, but in a fuzzy way. I guess I just always assumed she was misremembering because she had been so drunk, and that he played along. Anyone else see it this way, or am I totally off base? It's been a while since I saw the movie, I could be missing key details.
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  #6  
Old 05-07-2002, 02:04 AM
yosemite yosemite is offline
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I'm with Melandry on this one. I also haven't seen the film in a while, so I could be way off as well. But I think I've seen quite a few TV shows and films where a girl (or guy) gets drunk, and in the morning is "conned" into believing that they had hot sex with whoever was there. The other person will say, "Don't you remember? It was incredible!!" And the hungover person goes "Oh, uh, yeah...Oh...uh...yeah!! Sure!"

And it's all a big dumb joke, because no sex actually happened. That's how I remember Sixteen Candles, but it's been a while. I guess I need to see the film again.
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  #7  
Old 05-07-2002, 04:10 AM
Typo Negative Typo Negative is offline
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I agree. The nerd did not take advantage of the passed-out blonde.
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  #8  
Old 05-07-2002, 06:51 AM
Fern Forest Fern Forest is offline
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I'm also pretty sure Melandry was right since they woke up in the back seat of the guys convertable, with the top down, across from the church. And when they wake up they are both pretty confused and both are asking each other "Did we?" And neither of them remember anything. So I side with nothing happened.

Which makes me think that even if they did do something that neither of them was in any shape for making that decision and she's just as guity as he. Plus wasn't she an adult and he just a kid?
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  #9  
Old 05-07-2002, 07:13 AM
Fern Forest Fern Forest is offline
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I think they were both fully dressed when they woke up, except his shirt was partly untucked. But this I'm less sure of.
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  #10  
Old 05-07-2002, 09:15 AM
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is online now
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Wow. Then I've been misrepresenting this movie to people for years . Has anyone seen it recently and can confirm? Am I remembering a scene from a different movie instead? What's going on?

Daniel
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  #11  
Old 05-07-2002, 09:21 AM
Guy Propski Guy Propski is offline
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Here's how I remember it:

Blonde girl, incredibly drunk, makes a pass at Farmer Ted (AMH). She first puts her head in his lap, and we see Farmer Ted's face react as if he's getting a blow job. Blonde girl then reaches up and pulls Farmer Ted down.

So, you see, the drunk girl initiated the sex act. Farmer Ted might have been a gentleman and said, "Hey, I don't think we should do this,", but what high school kid in the 80's would have done that???
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  #12  
Old 05-07-2002, 09:22 AM
Legomancer Legomancer is offline
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I don't remember the details of the nerd and blonde scene, so I got nothing to offer there, but I do know that the Long Duc dong sequences (which have been brought up) haven't aged well. I now find them to be a huge embarassing chunk of an otherwise okay movie. I'm biased, though, as I have a place in my heart for Molly Ringwald, love 80s music, and appreciate John Cusack.
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  #13  
Old 05-07-2002, 09:28 AM
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is online now
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And Google isn't showing me anything except for a few sites that hint at "the date rape scene at the end of the movie." IMDB's plot summary is useless.

Hmm.
Daniel
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  #14  
Old 05-07-2002, 10:09 AM
PolishSausage PolishSausage is offline
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My thought has always been that they did 'something' but neither remember exactly what. She only has the memory of whatever it was, it was nice (awwww, she'd not all bad after all!).

I believe her character was treated so badly in the movie, in respect to the comments and actions of the jock boyfriend, because she was such a pain in the ass herself. It is the same rule of morality that allows good guys to kill bad guys in movies, 'cause they deserve it.

And hey, 'The Donger' got some lovin' in the movie. So if that's stereotyping, call me honky and bring in the ladies!!!

~t
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  #15  
Old 05-07-2002, 11:05 AM
Eats_Crayons Eats_Crayons is offline
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I remember it as fairly innocent.

From what I remember, nothing actually happened, but both mistakenly believe something did (or at least Farmer Ted is gullible/hopeful enough to believe it when she tells him so). That was supposed to be part of the humour, Farmer Ted's "great conquest" never happened, though he was groped plenty.

When they wake up, they do exchange a sweet kiss initiated by the blonde which implicitly suggests that she is aware that he *was* a complete gentleman -- whereas no other guy in her social circle would have been -- and that she was touched by his respectful behaviour. (IIRC, she seems to really take note of the fact that she woke up in his arms -- a gesture of tenderness -- whereas most guys get their rocks off, roll over and go to sleep, then leave in the morning).

Since he doesn't remember anything, she essentailly fabricates the "Farmer Ted is a fabulous lover" scenario because it makes him feel so gosh-darned-MANLY and raises his esteem in the eyes of his peers.

He was a genuinely sweet guy, and she lets him believe that this one great fantasy actually came true.
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  #16  
Old 05-07-2002, 12:08 PM
monster monster is offline
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Jake does not give FT permission to go upstairs and violate his girlfriend. He has him take her home, and she gets all crazy. She gave FT a birth control pill to take and once she tells him what it is, he spits it out.

Remember in the morning, when they are in the car, Farmer Ted asks her, "Did we, you know?" and he makes the finger in the fist motion? And she replies that she doesn't know, but she thinks so. I don't think it was a case of date rape, but two drunk teenagers who don't even know if they had sex.
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  #17  
Old 05-07-2002, 03:10 PM
Lamia Lamia is offline
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I see a lot of justification going on here. The movie clearly shows us that blonde girl 1) is extremely drunk and mostly unconscious 2) believes that nerdboy is her boyfriend after her boyfriend tells her this. It also shows us that while nerdboy may not be 100% sober, he is conscious, coherent, and willing to take advantage of his situation. It also shows us both characters saying that they had sex. If this is true -- and there is nothing in the film to suggest that it is not -- then I don't see how anyone could say that she has not been the victim of date rape. Perhaps worst of all, she is victimized by two different guys -- both nerdboy and her own boyfriend, the nominal romantic hero of the film. That is sickening, and the fact that the character is a bitch does nothing to justify it.
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  #18  
Old 05-07-2002, 04:50 PM
Kamandi Kamandi is offline
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Yeah, but Long Duck Dong is still pretty funny.
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  #19  
Old 05-07-2002, 05:00 PM
Cat Fight Cat Fight is offline
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"See, where as I always assumed that they didn't *do* anything at all, since the relatively sober nerd doesn't remember it, and the girl claims she does remember, but in a fuzzy way."

I'm almost certain that they didn't have sex, but I'm basing my feeling on a Dynamite interview from waaay back (whatshisface talking about playing nerds, about imaginary sex, etc.)
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  #20  
Old 05-07-2002, 05:41 PM
monster monster is offline
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Oh! I just remembered more dialogue. Ted asks Caroline if he was any good, and she says something like, "You know, I have a strange feeling that you were."
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  #21  
Old 05-07-2002, 09:16 PM
burundi burundi is offline
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I gotta say, this movie doesn't age well. There's ambiguity about whether or not that had sex, but it's enough of a possibility to be a little cringe-y. Also, maybe I missed something in high school or hung out with a totally square crowd, but there were never parties like that where the whole school was invited. Plenty of drinking, drugs, and sex, yes, but usually kept among one's own clique.
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  #22  
Old 05-08-2002, 12:29 PM
Gundy Gundy is offline
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Originally posted by burundi
Also, maybe I missed something in high school or hung out with a totally square crowd, but there were never parties like that where the whole school was invited. Plenty of drinking, drugs, and sex, yes, but usually kept among one's own clique.
John Hughes had this vision of high school that has not matched the experiences of anyone I've ever met. Maybe the 'burbs are really that different from the city, I dunno.

That said: I still like this movie. It's silly and stupid but it amused me. And I never thought that Farmer Ted and Caroline actually had sex -- but in retrospect, her original boyfriend was a jerk to put her in that situation.
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  #23  
Old 05-08-2002, 01:57 PM
auntie em auntie em is offline
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All, er... "semantics" (???) issues aside (for the record, my recollection of the Caroline/Farmer Ted scenario is pretty much the same as monster's), I second the notion that the movie "doesn't age well".

Aside from Long Duck Dong and the whole Possible Date Rape thing, hell, there's grandparents feeling up their grandkids, disparaging images of Ukranians...

...and let's not forget the little conversation between Samantha and her best friend, where Samantha is talking about how she always envisioned her 16th birthday (something about a TransAm and a hot boyfriend). There is an entanglement with syntax, and the friend mistakenly believes that Sam is expressing the desire for--*gasp!*--a Black boyfriend!

(Note: quotes are not exact.)

Friend: A BLACK GUY?!!?!??!?

Sam (rolling eyes): NO-oooooo, silly, a Black CAR--a pink guy.


Ohhhh... *Whew* Ha Ha! Imagine the absurdity of dating a Black guy!

Also, even as a KID I never understood what was so great and desirable about Jake (besides his cute little face and that CAR). I mean, he dumps his girlfriend off on Farmer Ted, he's obscenely rude to Samantha's grandparents for no reason, and he shows up uninvited to her sister's wedding! That's not romantic! That's bad manners!

(And wasn't his interest in Sam fueled mainly by the note he found, whereby he learned that she wanted to have sex with him??? And the best thing he has to say about her, to justify his interest in her to his jock friend, is "She's not UGLY...")

Good God, I've gotten old.

At any rate, although the movie does not age well, I'm still fond of it, as a relic of my youth (sort of like how you keep that one teddy bear or stuffed dog, even though he has no eyes and smells like cat pee). And it reminds me how far I've (thank GOD) come!
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  #24  
Old 05-08-2002, 02:05 PM
Gundy Gundy is offline
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auntie em, I had forgotten about the "pink guy" scene, but you're totally right. Last time I saw it a couple of years ago, I remember thinking "what the hell?" but it passed under my pre-pubescent radar when I saw it the first time.

But when was he rude to Samantha's grandparents? I thought they were the ones who got freaked out when he was trying really hard to be polite.
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  #25  
Old 05-08-2002, 02:57 PM
auntie em auntie em is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gundy

But when was he rude to Samantha's grandparents? I thought they were the ones who got freaked out when he was trying really hard to be polite.
Yeah, eventually he tried to be polite... but remember at first how he kept calling (despite the fact that it was late, and everyone in the house--except for Long Duck Dong, who was out with his Manly Girlfriend--was in bed) and hanging up on them, and then he said "Eat Me!" into the phone?

That's why they were freaking out when he finally DID attempt to be polite!

Good heavens. Sympathy for the grandparents is the first step to being Over The Hill...
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  #26  
Old 05-08-2002, 09:19 PM
Freudian Slit Freudian Slit is offline
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Wow, thanks for all the replies.

Mmmm. So the general consensus is basically that Farmer Ted is a dolt who can't remember when he had sex, the girl is a bitch goddess who can't remember when she had sex, the boyfriend is a rude and presumptuous wedding crasher, and the best friend is a bigot. I think Molly is the only one who comes out of this one unscathed!

In any case, I think I prefer "Pretty in Pink." You never had to worry about Ducky accidentally committing rape...

I actually remember the blond girl, and the others being really jealous of her and all. Somehow I can't muster up a lot of sympathy for her. I mean, she seemed so much more normal after the night with Ted. Anyway, yeah, not necessarily a movie that ages well, but I still love John Hughes.
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  #27  
Old 05-08-2002, 09:23 PM
Guinastasia Guinastasia is online now
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BTW, why was Ted called "Farmer"? It's been a while since I've seen the movie.

And don't forget, Sam gives her panties to Ted so he can show the guys what a stud he was.

(I agree, the movie ages horribly. That said, I still find it hysterical).
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  #28  
Old 05-08-2002, 09:41 PM
ftg ftg is offline
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1. The Blonde remembers more than Farmer Ted. Farmer Ted has to even ask if they had sex. It seems highly unlikely that he was in a mental state to force himself if he can't remember it.

2. The Blonde says it was nice. "Nice", not "rape." This is probably a point deliberately put in by the writer to avoid suggesting date rape.

I can understand how some people think that date rape might have occurred. I don't see how people can think it was Farmer Ted doing the raping. It is clear that if there was a victim, it was Farmer Ted. Males can and have been raped folks. Didn't Cece do a column on this?

A lot of people are misremembering the movie. The head in lap thing was not the initiation of actual sex. She was clearly aware that Farmer Ted was not her boyfriend once they got onto the road.
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  #29  
Old 05-08-2002, 10:45 PM
Lamia Lamia is offline
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Originally posted by ftg

I can understand how some people think that date rape might have occurred. I don't see how people can think it was Farmer Ted doing the raping. It is clear that if there was a victim, it was Farmer Ted.
She was incoherent and mostly unconscious, and he was awake, coherent, driving around, and showing her off to his friends, yet she is the obvious aggressor and he the obvious victim? I think not. At least not if this incident had taken place in real life. As it is, it's yet another fictional example of the centuries old "woman is raped and ends up liking it" story. But it isn't right just because the character enjoys it; personally I think that makes it far sicker than a more realistic depiction of such a situation, where the girl would certainly feel violated by both her boyfriend and the nerd.
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  #30  
Old 05-09-2002, 12:19 AM
DarkWriter DarkWriter is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lamia


She was incoherent and mostly unconscious, and he was awake, coherent, driving around, and showing her off to his friends, yet she is the obvious aggressor and he the obvious victim? I think not. At least not if this incident had taken place in real life. As it is, it's yet another fictional example of the centuries old "woman is raped and ends up liking it" story. But it isn't right just because the character enjoys it; personally I think that makes it far sicker than a more realistic depiction of such a situation, where the girl would certainly feel violated by both her boyfriend and the nerd.
That reminds me of a scene in another film.

How about in Revenge of the Nerds where the nerd puts on a mask and has sex in the moon bounce with the football player's girlfriend? She loves it, then freaks when she sees she had sex with a nerd, then decided she loved it because the nerd was so good.

Would that be considered outright rape or date rape? Or yet another "woman is raped but loved it" scenario, making it OK?

Sheri
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  #31  
Old 05-09-2002, 01:00 AM
Darth Nader Darth Nader is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarkWriter


That reminds me of a scene in another film.

How about in Revenge of the Nerds where the nerd puts on a mask and has sex in the moon bounce with the football player's girlfriend?
Let's not add another cheezy teen movie to the mix... At least not that one, as the high point in that flick was Booger's winning burp. And the music at the end.

Back to ST-- Doesn't she say something along the lines of "Yeah, I'm pretty sure." when Ted (somehow able to remember to put on his orthodontic appliance before he passes out that night) asks if they did the nasty?

She looked unhappy when she said this, IIRC. Or maybe she was upset about her new haircut...

Too close to call, but folks will see what they want to see...
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  #32  
Old 05-09-2002, 01:04 AM
Darth Nader Darth Nader is offline
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SC, even.

eep!
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  #33  
Old 05-09-2002, 01:18 AM
DarkWriter DarkWriter is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Nader


Let's not add another cheezy teen movie to the mix... At least not that one, as the high point in that flick was Booger's winning burp. And the music at the end.
Actually, it was a legitimate question about date rape scenes in old movies. No need to dismiss it, just because the movie itself was cheesy (in your opinion at least). And although it may be a slight hijack, it's not a complete one, because the subject is the same, although I mentioned a different movie.

I remember Luke and Laura from General Hospital had one of the most famous "rape but she liked it in the end" scenes of all time. The "staircase" scene in Gone with the Wind could also be considered one.

Are there more recent movies that feature this? Or in these PC times, do movie makers shy away from it?

Sheri
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  #34  
Old 05-09-2002, 02:35 AM
Darth Nader Darth Nader is offline
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I'm gonna get flamed for this:

Quote:
Originally posted by DarkWriter


No need to dismiss it,
Okay, I thought that bringing up scenes from ROTN (a film I feel could never get made in the here and now) was drawing attention away from the OP, where a specific question was asked about a particular film.

Let's stay focused here.

I do think that if that movie had been made now, there would be a slightly different take on things. The new version would NOT show the drunken woman thinking for a bit as she sobered up, wondering if she'd had sex with the guy next to her when she woke up. In the new version, it would have to be made CLEAR that she was a slut, and that she fully deserved what she got. Twice.

The new movie goes on to pull a few tens of millions from the box-office, and everyone is okay with that. Yah, this is MUCH better.

Go rent "Strange Days", or maybe "The Accused", not all cinematic rape buys into that mindset.

(and I just wanted to mention Booger's burp!)
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  #35  
Old 05-09-2002, 02:57 AM
Billy Baroo Billy Baroo is offline
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Jake had the coolest sideburns.
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  #36  
Old 05-09-2002, 08:37 AM
crazy4chaucer crazy4chaucer is offline
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My sister and I were discussing this last night. Our consensus? Yeah, it was date rape.

And the Jake whom we thought so cool and studly when we were younger is actually a real ass, y'know? He's walking around his house moaning because of how they trashed it. Then he loads his drunken girlfriend and Farmer Ted in his Dad's rolls-royce and sends them out on the town.

Also, someone mentioned earlier that John Hughes had a view of the world that never really existed. We look at it more as it's the day in the life of . . . a self-centered 16 year-old girl. For example, one can imagine that her grandparents' reaction to her developing figure, for example, would embarrass her to the point that she felt like they'd invaded her privacy so throughly they might as well have felt her up. Or when her parents realized they'd forgotten her birthday and her father went down to grovel--her magnanimous forgiveness is something that she would see herself as doing.

So I don't think it's an objective look at what happened that day, but it's Sam's perspective on what happened that day. The real events, although truly heinous, may be been slightly less offensive.

All that being said, I can't believe I used to like this movie. It's just vile!
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  #37  
Old 05-09-2002, 11:03 AM
sidle sidle is offline
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I don't think Jake was an ass. He put her in the car with the nerd, and specifically told the nerd that he had to make sure that she got home, not leave her in a parking lot somewhere.
Yes, he is angry that his house was trashed, but that's because the girlfriend was the one who invited everyone over. He didn't want to have the party.
The only part I find offensive in the movie, and I did even when it came out, was the "pink guy/black Trans Am" line.
Sorry- I just don't buy the date rape argument. They were both tipsy, granted, she more than he, but she was the aggressor, and besides, they're both fully clothed in the a.m. I really think that nothing much happened.
I agree that the movie doesn't age well, but it was depicting high school students, and they make silly decisions and do stupid, funny things, then and now.
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  #38  
Old 05-11-2002, 06:58 AM
Equipoise Equipoise is offline
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Quote:
I think Molly is the only one who comes out of this one unscathed!
Not really. She calls Farmer Ted a "fag" on the bus.
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  #39  
Old 05-15-2002, 04:00 AM
Rilchiam Rilchiam is offline
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Originally posted by Guinastasia
BTW, why was Ted called "Farmer"? It's been a while since I've seen the movie.
They never said, but this board has put forth the theory that his last name is Farmer, which provoked snickers when the list of incoming freshmen was read. "Farmer, Ted?" "Snnnnx....Farmer Ted! Pzx!"

Quote:
And don't forget, Sam gives her panties to Ted so he can show the guys what a stud he was.
See, that I really don't like. And her reaction, when her friend tells her what was done with them is not funny. And he said "for ten minutes", but he still has them to show to Jake! She didn't want them back, or what?
  • Why is it so tragic that Samantha had to sleep on the couch? I volunteered to sleep on the couch when we had company, and even slept there sometimes when we didn't. Closed-captioning was just coming in, so I could watch Letterman with my walkman on, and the fridge was a few steps away.
  • I'm not inclined to feel sorry for someone who has no apparent household responsibilities beyond "turning off the stove in twenty minutes". I did more than half the housework while my parents worked, and I still got dissed. That's a reason to be resentful.
  • "Grandparents forgetting a birthday? They live for that shit!" Step this way, young lady. This is called a globe. It's a scale model of the world. What does it revolve around, you ask? Well, the model revolves around this metal stick, while the real world revolves on its axis. In other words, not you.
  • To be fair, I got the impression that Jake did not "violate Caroline ten different ways" because he no longer wanted to do that to anyone, not just that he no longer wanted her, or sex with her. Also, "She's not ugly," was in response to the guy who said, "Depends on how much you paid me," when Jake asked if he'd ever go out with Samantha. Guys say a lot of callous things about girls when they're talking among themselves. "She's not ugly" is about as close as you'll get to an endorsement of someone that the guy has not yet scored with.
  • How did Jake's house get put back together so fast? Or did it? If it did, he probably called a cleaning service. If it didn't, maybe that's what he's got planned after they have their cake; Samantha will "help" him clean it up.
  • Billie Bird is funny.
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