thinking of moving to Denver

In My Humble Opinion
1

I am considering moving from NY to Denver and am astonished at my ignorance about the place. Until 2 days ago, I had no idea that the mile high city is not actually in the mountains. I was also astonished that the average daily temperature is higher than it is in NYC. I got some of the info from the various tourist websites. However, I am taking their info with a grain of salt. One of them said that Denver gets 60 inches of snow annually but that it usually melts as soon as it hits the ground! Can that be true? I need to know what Denver is really like. I know these are open ended questions but I need to make a decision fast. My Places Rated Almanac says that violent crime is relatively high there. I think the ranked in the mid 200’s out of 335 cities with rape/assault/ murder rates all high. Is it that unsafe? I will be working at the airport…which I believe is in Aurora. Can you list some nice neighborhoods within, say, 45 minute drive that I could check online for real estate? Do you have any insight as to the atmosphere of the place…conservative, liberal? I am under the impression that smog is a big concern there. Do I have to bring my own beer if I want something stronger than 3.2? I am all ears and eyes for any points of view.

Thanks!

2

Denver? It depends on what you’re into.

I’ve never lived in Denver, but I’ve been there quite a few times and I wouldn’t classify it as a happenin’ place. It’s kind of like Salt Lake City (only bigger and definitely more happenin’) in that it doesn’t really have any outstanding qualities of it’s own, but it’s proximity to the mountains can’t be beat. I mean there’s stuff to do there, but for a city the size of Denver the pickings are slim. There’s a college campus close to downtown, a pedestrian mall downtown, some clubs, The Tattered Cover bookstore, some cool museums. I don’t know the story about crime there.

If you’re into hiking, skiing, mountain biking, or just like the mountains and can’t actually live in the mountains because of work it’s the next best thing. If you like the high plains, there you are! If you’re not sure and are unattached, maybe give it a go if you have a job lined up. You might be pleasantly surprized. There’s lots of suburban sprawl. The airport is way out there.

If you’re a real city person or single guy and get off on the throb of a great city, Denver probably ain’t your place.

The brown cloud? Once you see it you’ll understand.

3

I live in Colorado Springs and I was very shocked to find that it is not “in the mountains” either. It is a 2 hour drive to get to the closest skiing. You would think it would be 20 minutes since the city is right on the front range.

The beer is great and not 3.2 unless you buy it at the grocery store.

I would not recommend moving here. If you like mountains and outdoorsy stuff, plus you like to live close to everything, move to Salt Lake. The best place I have ever lived. Dont listen to the people bitching about mormons. They dont intefere with your life.

4

I’m in Lakewood, a quiet suburb west of Denver. I’m a couple miles from the mountains. Skiing is an hour’s drive away. I love this state. Thought about going to Cali for film, but I’m gonna take my chances out here.

The weather is very spontaneous. We have some crazy snow storms here, but we’re pretty good drivers when it comes to that kind of thing. In the morning it can snow, and in the afternoon it might be all melted. That’s how sporadic it can get. During winter, it’s always good to have something extra around just in case.

As far as it being a “happenin” town, that’s hard to say. It depends how old you are and what your idea of fun is. There are clubs throughout denver, ranging from those oxygen bars to comedy clubs to places for raving and dancing like The Church. The mountains are unbeatable. It gets a bit smoggy sometimes in the downtown area, but the milehigh winds carry it east (hehe).

In terms of crime, it’s actually not that bad. If you’re in a suburb, you’re safer than a baby in a carriage. If you’re in an urban environment, the risks for theft and mugging increases. That’s just how it works everywhere. It’s much safer than many states. Yeah, we had the Jon Benet Ramsey thing and Columbine, but those can happen anywhere.

The atmosphere is a balance between conservative and liberal unless you get into college towns like Boulder, which are wholly liberal. I attend CU at Boulder, so I definitely know this. :slight_smile: There are new establishments being set up, new shopping centers like Highlands Ranch. Really great places. We’ve got great movie theaters, Krispy Kremes here and there, and we’ve got NORAD. That’s right. You wanna be safe, you come here.

5

I’ll say. The summer thunderstorms are incredible. I remember being at a concert at Red Rocks and when we got there it was sunny. Just before the show it clouded up (I mean you can literally see the thunderheads billowing up over the foothills) and got dark. Then it began to hail. I’d say garbonzo bean size. Everyone was exposed and tried to cover their heads with whatever was available. All you could hear was the clackity clack of hail and the occasional “ow”, “ooo”, “SHIT!”. Then the rain and serious thunder and lightning started and blew over. Then the sun came out like nothing happened. Then the Grateful Dead came out on stage and ripped it up while we watched the whole storm system march across the plains spitting out lightning bolts while the side of the thunderhead facing us was lit up by the setting sun. Just freakin’ incredible!!

And then there was the snowstorm in May of '83 that knocked down all the powerlines on my road and we were without electricity for days. That kind of sucked.

6

I lived in Denver for 15 years. I now live about 100 miles west of Denver. I would say that one of the best things about Denver is the weather. Winters not too cold, summers not too hot. The dry air makes even a 90 degree day very tolerable. It can and does snow but it doesn’t last long. You can experience 50 and even 60 degree days in the winter. It can also get to 20 below.

IMO it really doesn’t snow that much. And when it does, the city does not shut down like some places.

7

I’m in Boulder which is about 25 miles NW of Denver.

Denver’s a nice town, but it’s not a big city. If you’re into “city” stuff, you may be disappointed here. If you’re into outdoors stuff, you’ll love it. Yes the winters are mild - and yes, the snow does melt very quickly.

This is a semi-arid climate, so the summers are brown very much as they are in Southern California. That was a disappointment to me. When I go back to the midwest in Summer, I’m always amazed at how lush and green everything is. When we came here from San Diego I had hopes of getting back to that summer lushness that I grew up with.

You may be surprised at how flat it is here. East of the foothills, it is prairie as far as the eye can see. Until you get to the foothills, it’s Kansas at a higher altitude. Only the curvature of the earth prevents you from seeing the Sears Tower in Chicago. I asked my Mom in Chicago to go outside and wave, but couldn’t actually spot her from here.

It’s a very easy town to get around in - because it’s not very big. Although traffic gets bunched up at rush hour, if you’re accustomed to big city traffic, you’ll think it’s a breeze.

Good luck with your decision.

8

Usually, that is. I lived in Denver for 6 years (north suburbs - Thornton, Westminster). The funny thing is that Denver often doesn’t get any significant snow during the winter, but occasionally gets buried. I was there for “The Blizzard that Stole Christmas” - the place was basically shut down for a week. There were drifts covering up the ground floor windows of my townhouse, and I almost couldn’t open the front door because of the snow that piled up against it during the night. It was about 4 days before they got a city vehicle down my side street.

It was also the blizzard that defeated McNichols. Denver politicians are in a real bind when it comes to snow. If they approve of buying a lot of snow removal equiptment, and don’t need it most winters, they are pilloried in the press for wasting money. Or they don’t, and when the occasional heavy snow comes along they get pilloried for not being able to cope with it.

“It looked like you needed a reservation to get into the ditch.” - a Denver coworker’s description following the other big blizzard during my stint there. I was driving a VW beetle, and I remember driving up the little hill on Federal chuckling as I threaded around the other cars which were spinning their wheels. I’d moved there from Montana, and I was running studded snow tires on my bug, too.

9

I live in Denver now - in Westminster, about 15 miles NW of downtown.

The airport is waayyy the heck out on the NE side of the City. The easiest way to commute to it would be by city bus. The RTD system has a number of busses that service the airport at all hours. Most airport employees get an “Eco-pass” that lets you ride the bus for free.

Check out RTD at their website:
http://www.rtd-denver.com

The airport busses are the “Skyride” ones:
http://www.rtd-denver.com/skyRide/index.html

I can grab a bus about three miles from my house that takes me to the airport. The park-and-ride pickup point is free, too.

The weather is highly variable. Just last year, we had a summer afternoon that fell to winter in 30 minutes. No kidding - we lost a degree a minute for a half-hour. The snow fell, melted, and the next day was in the 70’s. We’re a semi-arid location, currently suffering a drought, but get the majority of our precip in the first part of the year.

Summers can be hot and dry, with dependably a week or two above 100 degrees, winter is mild as a rule. It seems to be feast and famine on snowfall. Get a couple inches, then it melts. Get 20 inches in a couple hours - keep it for a couple weeks.

Having the mountains nearby is nice. Many of my coworkers do weekend ski trips through the winter. The mountains keep the snow better than we do in the flats. There’s a lot of summer activity, too: hiking, biking, etc. Denver was rated as the “least obese” city recently, I credit the large variety of year-round activities. Something I enjoy is the extensive in-city bicycle trails.

It’s a great city for sports lovers, too. We’ve got professional football, hockey, soccer, basketball, & baseball. I really don’t get into it.

Several coworkers live in the mountains, 9000 feet elevation and better. They can make the commute via city bus every day. They’ve made the trade of commute time for elevation, view, etc. My wife and I made the choice for living nearer to work and having more time with the kids. The nice part is that the choice exists.

I think the “brown cloud” is overrated. When I was a kid, I got sick here on a vacation from the air pollution. It’s not like that now - we have extensive air-quality rules. It appears every now and then over “Commerce City” a couple miles north of downtown but it’s not a daily thing - or even close to it.

I won’t comment on night life - I have kids.

My wife and I like it here. This weekend we’re going up to Rocky Mountain Park for a picnic with the kids. It’s only 45 miles away. Every now and then it occurs to me that I live in a place that people diliberatly vacation in. I makes me look around and try to see things through tourist eyes to find what’s new to do.

-B

10

Some links:

Art Museum http://www.denverartmuseum.org
Performing Arts: http://www.denvercenter.org
Nature & Science Museum: http://www.dmns.org/
Airport: http://www.flydenver.com
National Parks: http://165.83.219.77/parksearch/state/state.cfm?statevar=co
City & Downtown: http://www.denvergov.org/panoramas/scenic.asp
Newspapers: http://www.rockymountainnews.com or http://www.denverpost.com or http://www.westword.com
Ski: http://www.skicolorado.com

That’s a pretty good starting point…

11

Real Estate: http://www.corealty.com

Personally I’d recommend living in the Northwest (Thornton, Westminster, Arvada, Louisville) - it’s a lot cheaper than the southern city suburbs. East of downtown is Aurora - not too expensive but shop neighborhood quality.

Boulder is liberal but expensive. Cherry Creek is conservative and very expensive. Highlands ranch is SW, mid-price for the city but a lousy commute to the airport. There’s some nice neighborhoods starting in East of the airport in the 104th to 120th street areas. Cheaper because of the distance from downtown but it’d be nice close commute to the airport. Houses are new and priced for real people. East side of Thornton?

12

I’ve lived here for 17 years. Most of what has been said is true. It really does average 60 inches of snow, although last winter was warm and dry. Snow comes in big chunks, most winters will have a 12"+ storm. It also will disappear in a few days and you could be golfing in 60 degree weather soon afterwards.

About the “city” stuff. Denver is a pretty big city, as far as they go. I think it’s the 16th biggest. It has all the “scenes” every other city does, just on a smaller scale. The dining is MUCH better than when I came here. If you are big into the arts, you may find it a bit lacking. Public art is very much into “Western” themes, and for some reason the art scene is quite small. IMHO. We get all the touring Broadway shows early, and the Denver Center for the Performing Arts is a nice complex. I guess when I talk about the art scene, I am referring to local original stuff. Other “scenes” are what you’d expect. Denver has a large gay and lesbian community, and are for the most part treated with respect. Colorado Springs is another matter. Politically, Denver proper is liberal, Boulder is lefty, it’s a mix elsewhere. There are some peculiarities about the West in general that spill across party lines, however. Unions are not a big factor, and aren’t given much credit. Property rights are well protected. There is a lassiez faire attitude to nature and what it can do. You get hit by a rock while driving in the mountains? Shit happens. Mountain lion eats your dog? Tough. Caught in an avalanche in the backcountry? That’s the risk you take. People who complain about these things or expect to somehow be compensated for their distress and looked down upon, severly.

Housing? What part of NY are you coming from? If from upstate, be prepared. If you’re coming from the city, it might be a welcome change. Boulder/Longmont was just rated the 9th most expensive housing market in the US from the current census, the first community outside of CA and I think Greenwich, CT on the list. Denver was lower, but not by too much. The median price of a home in Boulder/Longmont is about $250K. That seems even a little low to me. Generally speaking, the closer to the mountains, the more expensive it is. The airport is about 30 miles NW of the city, and you can live in some towns like Brighton or Fort Lupton pretty cheaply, although these are rural farming towns that the city is starting to encroach upon, not at all city living. Think cowboys in pickups. I think you can still get a house in Brighton for under 200K that is 2000 sq. ft. There is a “beltway” that goes around half the city (soon to be 3/4) that goes right to the airport, so as long as you stay out of the SW quadrant of the city, you should be able to commute without too much difficulty.

The crime numbers you cited seem way high to me.

Finally, if you are an outdoors type that enjoys skiing, hiking, camping, biking, fishing, etc. this is your Mecca. You will never be at a loss for something to do. Sports are big here, professionally. All the teams are supported well except the Nuggets, but they have been so bad for so long that is to be expected. When they were good, even mediocre, they were supported. If you are a city person, clubbing all night, you might have some culture shock. Racially, the biggest minority group, by far, is Latino. Cinco de Mayo is the largest cultural event in the city. The African-American population is small for a big city. Also small is the Asian population. It’s pretty much Anglo and Latino. In general, relations are good. Denver/Boulder is one of the most highly educated communities in the country. Let me check that census stat - OK, here’s a good site http://63.147.65.175/censusmap502/index.html

The economy right now is down, lower than the US average, but then again we just had a decade of huge growth. Most of the job losses here have been in tech and telecom. If you have a decent job lined up that is stable, I’d say the chances are good you’d really like it here. I do.

13

Former Denver resident checking in here.

If you’re into city living, I’d recommend living anyplace that is relatively close to I-70. The best price/performance you’ll probably find will be in the West Highlands/Berkeley neighborhood, in northwest Denver. It’s gentrifying, but not as snooty as the areas east of I-25 – the grittiness increases as you get further away from the core commercial district along 32nd Avenue. 38th Avenue is still lined with businesses catering to Mexican-Americans, even though they are leaving the area in droves. Tennyson Street probably has the last “old school” retail district in Denver – you’ll find a great hardware store, diner, and barber shop there, with no yupscale dining. By Denver standards, West Highlands/Berkeley is affordable – $250,000 will get you a 900 square foot two bedroom brick bungalow, $180,000 will buy you a half duplex, and $900 a month will land you a small two bedroom apartment. It’s about 35 minutes to DIA.

If you don’t care about urbanity, go to Aurora. In a city surrounded with mega-suburbs, Aurora is the Mac Daddy – about 300,000 residents. Aurora is Denver’s equivalent of Mississauga, Arlington (Texas), Mesa, or Overland Park.

Aurora does have a bad reputation, undeserved in my opinion. It boomed during the 1970s (with the boom resuming in the mid 1990s), and older apartment complexes on the north side of town didn’t age well. “Original Aurora” is considered a slum by Denver standards, but in reality it resembles a somewhat shopworn middle class neighborhood in any other city. Aurora is also derided for its 1970s “planned community” feel – there’s lots of parks and retail, but it seems “sterile.” No billboards, low signs, no overhead utilities, lots of public landscaping, and enough cul-de-sacs to keep you losing your way for years. The cult movie “Over the Edge” was filmed in Aurora. There’s a perception that Aurora is “out towards Kansas,” and it doesn’t have the “robust e-business solution” crowd that you see in central Denver or the southern 'burbs.

On the other hand, neighborhoods in Aurora south of Alameda are quite comfortable, with the affluence increasing as you head further south. It’s close to the airport and to the chi-chi business and retail areas of the south metro area. Aurora has perhaps the best selection of ethnic restaurants outside of Denver. Aurora is considered the most integrated city of its size in the United States, and the per capita income is smack in the middle for the Denver metro region. Rents and housing prices are low – you can still get a decent house for under $200,000 there. If I moved back to Denver, I’d be looking for a house in Aurora – I’d have no qualms about living there.

Political attitudes – central Denver is fairly liberal, the city itself tends to be rather centrist. Most suburbs are fairly centrist, with Aurora liberal-leaning, and unincorporated Jefferson County south of Lakewood considered very conservative. Boulder makes Berkeley seem like a city populated by John Birch Society members; it’s the standard for “liberal” that is used by most AM talk show hosts.

14

Agree with much that was said above. Plus, if you wanna live in Longmont, I can make you a GREAT deal on a house.

15

Thanks so much for the replies. I am coming from Long Island, NY. I would probably be looking for a house on at least an acre plot, 2000-2500 sq ft. Can that be had for say 250-300k? What would I expect for property taxes on such a property? I see there are lakes nearby. Can I waterski on them? I know it is dry. Can I irrigate for grass or are there water restrictions? I guess by now you are thinking, “Stay home!”. I’m just trying to get a feel for the place. I still can’t get over the fact that it is warmer there than it is here in NYC. How are the people…friendly? Am I forgetting anything else? I’ll be out on the weekend of the 6/22 to look around. See ya then!

16

I can’t really add much to the wealth of info that has been heretofore put forth other than this:

Hey, come on down! If you live near me, you can get some really killer broadband.
A company called WideOpenWest has 10 Megabit service available for only 49.95/mo. It rocks.

Last test I did? Yeah… 13,162 kbps. :eek:

17

That will be a little harder to do in Denver or it’s suburbs, but not a whole lot out of that range. You could easily find that within a 45 minute drive if you don’t mind being farther from the action. But coming from New York those little farm towns might bore the crap out of you. There are some waterskiable lakes around most everywhere. Water restrictions probably happen about once every 6 years(this year is very dry), but usually theres not much of a problem. The people are very friendly, but there is also an attitude of not messing in other peoples business, So if you meet your neighbors on a bad day and they get the impression you don’t want to be social, they will never talk to you again. :slight_smile: On the other hand there is a reason to be cautious of crime in Capitol hill, five points or Aurora. The rest is pretty much safe.

As for the snow that’s pretty much the way it works. a couple times in the spring we get dumped on for a day, then it’s all gone two days later.

As far as the not a hapening place thing I disagree. Denver is not an ‘in your face’ " I can’t believe I survived that " kind of place. A visit to Denver will not wow you. But people who stay for a month or so usually end up decideding to move here. The things to do take an effort to find, but once you figure things out your weekends will be flooded with things to do. Do you want to go up skiing/camping? Do you want to head to one of the many music festivals around the state? do you just want to chill downtown with some friends and some beers? check out a rockies/avs/broncos game? head out for some golf? go fly fishing? check out a museum? It has the best of city stuff and the best of wilderness stuff within an hour or so drive.

18

zydecat, you’re going to love the taxes.

But first, if you are looking for that kind of land at that price, it’s going to be out on the plains a good ways, or in the mountains, but a LONG way from DIA, and snow will be a problem in winter. You will have to look east of I25, for sure, probably east of the airport. You’ll be 30-40 miles from Denver at least. In the mountains, you could get that sort of land, but it would be away from the main roads and commuting to DIA would be at least 2 hours each way.

For the good part: Property taxes on a $300K home are going to be no more than $3500, probably less if you are in Adams or Weld counties, where you will likely be if you truly want a home with that much land. A bit different from NY, yes? About 1% of assessed value is a fair estimate.

19

One other thing about the crime. Drugs are very popular here. Pot, X and shrooms are everywhere, and there really arn’t many arrests. About once a week a meth lab blows up, and they show it on the news. Probably about 70%(this statistic pulled out of my ass) of the under 35 professional people smoke pot regularly, whether this is a possitive or negative for you I don’t know.

20

> I would probably be looking for a house on at least an acre
> plot, 2000-2500 sq ft. Can that be had for say 250-300k?

Maybe – if you head far, far north of Denver, in central Weld County (Greeley or Fort Lupton), in Commerce City (close to DIA and to downtown Denver, but think … it’s called Commerce City for a reason) or far east of Denver (and Aurora!) in Bennett. You’ll still be 45 minutes from the DIA, but you’ll also be about 75 minutes from downtown Denver.

This might seem strange, but the suburbs of western (U.S.) cities are far more dense than those of eastern (U.S.) cities. Kansas City’s burbs don’t look too different than those of Cleveland, Buffalo or Philadelphia. Eight hours west, and you’ll hit Aurora, with 2,000 square foot (180m2) houses on 5,000 square foot lots. That’s considered generous by Denver standards now. You’ll see houses that look somewhat “Eastern” on lots of a size that you might find in the newest suburbs of Los Angeles or San Francisco.

$300K will get you something like this or this in Northwest Denver. (Those same houses would sell for $400K and up east of the Platte.) $250K would get you a nice, 2,000 square foot house in a good Aurora neighborhood.

> What would I expect for property taxes on such a property?

I lived in Northwest Denver, in a bungalow that was only a bit smaller than pictured in the above links. I paid $750 a year in property taxes. You’d probably be paying $1,200 on a $250K house in Aurora. I found that property taxes were typically about 0.5% to 0.75% of the sales price, or about 1% of assessed valuation.

> I see there are lakes nearby. Can I waterski on them?

Cherry Creek Reservoir in Aurora, and Marston Lake in southwest Denver. There’s a couple of other reservoirs, none larger than a couple of square miles. That’s about it.

> I know it is dry. Can I irrigate for grass or are there water
> restrictions?

Most homes will have Kentucky Bluegrass, fescue or ryegrass lawns, and there’s usually some combination of fescue and xeriscaping in newer areas. Watering restrictions depend on the snowfall the previous winter; if there was little snowfall, there would be irrigation and car washing restrictions. Water is on the hard side. Lawns are dormant about six or seven months of the year.

> How are the people…friendly?

Friendly, but increasingly a bit pretentious. The Colorado natives are wonderful folks, as are the folks who moved to Denver before the tech boom. The techies, and those close to them, are very similar to the new money crowd in San Francisco or Seattle; they love smooth jazz, vacations in Tuscany, Whole Foods, and so on.
A few Denver quirks –

  • The colder the weather, the lighter the dress. For some reason, you’ll see lots of people wearing shorts when it’s bitter cold outside. Some say it’s because the sun counteracts the temperature; I say it’s because thye’re trying to self-validate their “outdoorsiness.”

  • Don’t like SUVs? Don’t move to Denver. Close to half the registered privately owned passenger vehicles in the Denver area are SUVs – the bigger, the better.

  • Assuming you’re male, grow a goatee. Seems like they’re far more prevalent in Denver than in most other cities in the United States.

  • Overweight, even just a little bit? You won’t be allowed to move to Boulder, and you’ll be the object of a lot of stares. Denver is, collectively, an extremely tall, thin, athletic city. (I’m 5’ 10", weigh between 165 and 170 pounds, and was regularly called “fat” – seriously. “Short,” too.) Water cooler conversation will focus on bagging founteeners, skiing back bowls, running marathons and climbing rock faces. It’s the kind of place where lots of people really do subscribe to Hydrate magazine – and take the articles seriously, too.

  • You’ll really meet people who, in describing their jobs, will say “I offer robust end-to-end solutions.”

  • The beer. Dear sweet Jesus, the beer. Oh man …

  • The Denver metro area is EXTREMELY affluent, and folks have a skewed idea about concepts such as “slums,” “poor,” “middle class” and so on.

  • You’ll find different fall foilage colors than in the Northeast. Residents ooh and aah over the aspens turning yellow. Leaves don’t turn red in the fall – they just turn a lighter shade of green or yellow, and then drop.

  • Side streets aren’t plowed after snowfalls. Major arterials are plowed, with “solar snow removal” used on all the other streets. Salt isn’t used at all.

  • BTW, it’s especially fun driving on an unsalted, snow-packed road WITH ABSOLUTELY NO GUARDRAILS winding up to a pass in the mountains, and being PASSED by everyone else, including LONG HAUL TRUCKERS. I still don’t know how they do it, unless they’re all professionally trained rally drivers.