ABS brakes on cars, great but expensive?

[Guy Incognito]

Being the cheap bastard that I am, I have held off on buying another car for as long as I can. I'm talking used cars, not new. Anyway, my wife and I test drove a 92 Le Sabre and we really like the car a lot. One of the features that I appreciate is ABS.

My question is this: aside from the obvious safety advantages given by ABS brakes, do the systems hold up pretty well? Does anybody out there who has ABS on their car had more brake-related expenses on their cars than if they used standard brakes?

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"It's only common sense,
There are no accidents 'round here."

[Ringo]

My car has ABS and is in the shop today because the Anti-Skid warning light was on and you can't pass inspection that way. The brakes appeared to be working (although I'll note I haven't had a panic stop situation since the light came on). The fix: one relay @ $75 and one wheel sensor @ $273.

I'm not dissatisfied with the car (BMW), but these are expenses that I would not incur with a non-ABS system.

If you do get the car, remember that your first panic stop will entail a learning experience - keep your foot on the brake - DO NOT PUMP the brakes.

[Guy Incognito]

Already did a panic stop test during the test drive. Found an isolated patch of highway with nobody on it and took 'er from 75 to 0 as fast as possible--no problems. I'm aware of the "no brake pumping" deal, too. When our state troopers first got vehicles with ABS, there were some accidents because they failed to stay firmly on the brakes. This made the news around here a few times.

BMW, eh? You lucky....

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"It's only common sense,
There are no accidents 'round here."

[handy]

Sure they are expensive for parts,they have tons of special parts.

Being a responsible driver, I have never found need for them, thus, haven't bought them either.

[pmh]

FTR, threshhold braking will provide a quicker, shorter, more controlled stop. (I know, I know, "easier said than done" especially in a panic situation.)

Maybe this should be another thread, but

...aside from the obvious safety advantages given by ABS brakes...

Is this really true? The only studies I've seen show no significant reduction in accident frequency, severity, or property damage for ABS equipped cars. IMHO, ABS is another of those ideas that look good on paper, but fail to deliver IRL.
Did I miss something?

[NickyLarson]

I think ABS are great; just remember, they won't stop you from skidding, you'll still skid alright, and you'd better know how to steer out of it. ABS will only keep your wheelsfrom locking. Too many people think they're magic. They're just another tool.

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Then we'll turn our tommy guns
on the screaming ravaged nuns
and the peoples voice will be the only sound.
-P. Sky

[WillGolfForFood]

Being a responsible driver, I have never found need for them

Unfortunately, your being responsible isn't always good enough - sometimes it's the other fellow who runs the red light.

(I got to use my ABS about three days after purchasing my car when just that happened to me. The brakes worked fine. Took my heart awhile to get restarted, though.)

[Bluepony]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
Already did a panic stop test during the test drive. Found an isolated patch of highway with nobody on it and took 'er from 75 to 0 as fast as possible--no problems. I'm aware of the "no brake pumping" deal, too. When our state troopers first got vehicles with ABS, there were some accidents because they failed to stay firmly on the brakes. This made the news around here a few times.

BMW, eh? You lucky....

When we got our first police cars with ABS, the 92 Ford Crown Vics, we had a lot of unlearning to do from years of pursuit driving courses. After a few near misses I finally got adjusted to the ABS (it wasn't going to get adjusted to me!) and I became a happy camper again. However, every personal vehicle I've had since then must have ABS on it, now that I'm used to stomping on the brake pedal again.

Probably the best option you can ever have in your car, next to a 10-CD changer, or extra large cup holders.




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...send lawyers, guns, and money...

Warren Zevon

[Guy Incognito]

NickyLarson,

I sort of half-agree with you on ABS not preventing skids. ABS will reduce or eliminate skids if your car is traveling in a straight line when the brakes are applied. If you're attempting to do too tight of a turn while braking your tires will break away from the pavement, but we're talking lateral forces here. In that case other factors are called into play such as road surface condition, tire width, suspension, etc...

I understand your meaning that ABS isn't the wonder cure for auto accidents, but it's an item I wouldn't discount so readily.

BluePony, thanks for the skinny on the police cruiser brakes. A friend of mine bought a '96 Crown Vic police cruiser at a vehicle auction and he seems to like his very much. I gave him the warning about the ABS system. No accidents yet.

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"It's only common sense,
There are no accidents 'round here."

[Poysyn]

Here in the land of ice and snow I greatly appreciate my ABS brakes. The way it was explained to me is that regular old brakes may stop you faster, but you have no idea where you will be come that stop, ABS provides more control while stopping. I'm not sure if this is true, but it felt fine on the drive in when there were at least four times when I know my tires had no traction.

[Yeah]

pmh wrote: "The only studies I've seen show no significant reduction in accident frequency, severity, or property damage for ABS equipped cars. IMHO, ABS is another of those ideas that look good on paper, but fail to deliver IRL.

Is this true? A few years ago, not long after ABS was introduced, an engineer from the NHTSA told me that ABS-equipped cars were NOT involved in fewer or less severe crashes than cars with conventional brakes. As I recall, he said that ABS-equipped cars were involved more often in rollovers than non-ABS-equipped cars. Does anybody have some recent information.

[SuperNerd]

Poysyn:

regular old brakes may stop you faster, but you have no idea where you will be come that stop, ABS provides more control while stopping

Actually, I proved this yesterday - rolling up to a red light; there was a car already stopped at the light and I discovered that the whole block was a sheet of ice. Even with the brake pedal on the floor I was able to steer around the other guy and stop safely in the crosswalk.

Now, last year ... I was rolling along, again on ice. The woman in the non-ABS car in front of me stopped suddenly and there was nowhere I could go to steer around her. My stopping distance was probably twice hers and I moved her car a couple feet when I hit it. No damage but a small lesson. As Guy said "ABS isn't the wonder cure ...".

[jaydabee]

When it first snowed this winter I tested out the ABS brakes on my used '92 Blazer, worked great. Then on a very cold day I decided to test them again. BIG mistake. The system appears to have over pressurized the system, blowing out both rear wheel cylinders and damaging the ABS unit.

Price to repair unit: $600
Price to repair cylinders: $125

Is a '92 Blazer worth putting in $600
into? I didn't and will not. The braking system works like a regular braking system now and I will not go
back for the convienace of not having to pump. But, I do have have to disconnect that annoying ABS light on the dash.

So I ask you used car buying type of folks, "Do you think it is worth fixing or seeking out a used car with ABS?"

[Doctordec]

ABS saved my life 2 years ago I'm convinced. I had the brake pedal mashed (94 LeSabre) for at least 30 seconds flying down a hill at 60 mph on glazed ice on the interstate going to work and kept control while watching cars fly off the road on both sides. I live in Northern Ohio and I'll never have a car without them again. ABS is one of those options that somebody living in LA will never use but I swear by them, especially on ice.

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"Hope is not a method"

[mangeorge]

Most people are really pretty lousy drivers, esp. in a panic situation. We just don't have enough practice at the niceties of such things as "threshold braking". Where could we get it? The local Safeway get's annoyed if you go slamming on your brakes in the parking lot. So, I think, ABS is meant for us.
Peace,
mangeorge

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I only know two things;
I know what I need to know
And
I know what I want to know
Mangeorge, 2000

[Bricker]

Originally posted by beatle:
My car has ABS and is in the shop today because the Anti-Skid warning light was on and you can't pass inspection that way. The brakes appeared to be working (although I'll note I haven't had a panic stop situation since the light came on). The fix: one relay @ $75 and one wheel sensor @ $273.

Fascinating. I had the exact problem about four months ago - also a BMW, in my case a '96 328i. I bought the car new, and have been very satisfied with it, but that was one problem that came up. I'm not complaining -- apart from regular mainteneance, it's only been in the shop twice in four years -- but it's a curious coincidence.

- Rick

[Guy Incognito]

How about expenses for standard maintenance? You know, replacing pads, shoes, etc.. Do brake places like Midas and Meineke (sp?) charge more for work done on cars with ABS? I've replaced pads and shoes on other cars, but I figure I'd let a shop do the work if ABS was involved.


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"It's only common sense,
There are no accidents 'round here."

[pmh]

We just don't have enough practice at the niceties of such things as "threshold braking". Where could we get it? - mangeorge

There are many "hands on" defensive driving classes out there. Expensive, but (IMHO) well worth every penny. The really good ones will teach you in your own car. (and yes, I know it was a rhetorical question.)

Guy Incognito, The ones I've worked on (Ford and Buick) used normal pads, rotors, and calipers. So standard maintenance shouldn't be much higher (maybe a little for the extra hassle). The other parts however (sensors, valves, and electronic control units) were manufacturer specific and pricey. I would definitely refer that stuff to a mechanic trained in the specific system.

[Guy Incognito]

Guess I'll find out for sure how much ABS costs in the long run now--I ended up getting the 92 LeSabre with ABS. Beautiful car, at least compared to what we normally drive.



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"It's only common sense,
There are no accidents 'round here."

[sly]

pmh:

The only studies I've seen show no significant reduction in accident frequency, severity, or property damage for ABS equipped cars. IMHO, ABS is another of those ideas that look good on paper, but fail to deliver IRL

This is, quite frankly, hogwash. From the NHTSA's web site:

Certain types of collision involvements on wet roads, such as striking another vehicle in the rear, or striking a stopped vehicle, were reduced by 40 percent or more. This benefit, however, was partially offset by an increased likelihood of being struck in the rear by another vehicle. The better your own braking capabilities, the more likely that a following vehicle with average braking capabilities will hit you.

As far as the rollover increases, again from NHTSA:

One possibility is that average drivers may at times steer improperly in panic situations. Because ABS preserves steering control under hard braking, cars may be swerving or heading off the road.

www.nhtsa.org Look it up. I do agree with the threshold braking proposition. Unfortunately, even after defensive driving classes, unless this method is practiced, it won't do much in a panic situation. We have people talking on phones, shaving and reading newspapers (at the same time, in some cases), I'm surprised most people brake at all, let alone a tricky maneuver like threshold braking.

[pmh]

Thanks sly. (I think "hogwash" may have been a bit strong though. The next sentence did ask for info I had missed.)

From the same site:

Drivers of cars equipped with ABS are not colliding with other vehicles or pedestrians as often as drivers of cars without ABS.
The study, however, shows that current ABS-
equipped cars have a higher involvement rate, than cars without ABS, in side impacts and in fatal rollovers. The increase in these loss-
of- control type crashes is surprising in view of the good performance of ABS in stopping tests conducted by the agency and
others. NHTSA is not yet certain that the observed increase is a direct consequence of the ABS system and/or the driver's interaction with ABS.

The cite goes on to speculates that the "loss of control" crashes were probably less severe than the crashes that were avoided by application of the ABS.
Bottom line: fatalities in ABS equipped cars are reduced by more than 20% (wrt to non-ABS cars of the same model). That's enough to change my mind. I now believe ABS is a good idea.

[Diver]

jaydabee said:
The system appears to have over pressurized the system, blowing out both rear wheel cylinders and damaging the ABS unit.

This seems odd. The ABS system works by reducing the pressure to selected brake cylinders, not by increasing pressure.