I’m getting linked to all types of book promos, and getting little data I feel comfortable with when searching to answer this question:
How many U-boats were ‘lost’ during WW2…say 1939-1945 ? I don’t care if they were scuttled, fell apart or were sunk. Just total losses.
Also, how many crew of U-boats were lost during the same time frame?
Maybe this will be a short lived thread…
I’ve added up anywhere from 700 to 778 boats and 20-28,000 lives.
hard to swallow (numbers), but I’m afraid they’re true. Anyone to help pin it down…and understand that even as being historically aware, these are staggering numbers that prompt me to check.
This site claims 1,154 losses (broken down into categories). It looks like quite a thorough website and has been linked to by a number of other World War II-related sites.
This site claims 1,154 losses (broken down into categories, including scuttled boats). It looks like quite a thorough website and has been linked to by a number of other World War II-related sites.
In terms of crew deaths, it lists them as follows (boat losses do not include scuttled boats in this breakdown):
Just hard to grasp. I was getting limited information, and what I was adding up seemed staggering.
A troubling aspect of any war/battle/conflict etc, is what we always seem to re-learn during wars…even on terrorism…especially on terrorism:
How dangerous the enemy is one that is willing to die in great numbers for their cause. To the extent that u-boats terrorrized the waters, it’s almost suicide…the dreaded wolf pack…and to tally up tonnage and lives by allied crew and shipping with their losses, it’s amazing.
Eventually, the toll weakened the u-boat patrols. You can’t continue losing men like this and win a war. Maybe a seqway into GD, but it’s almost economical to go to war with terrorists as suicide is very inefficient in the long run, especially when the enemy is accomodating your desire to die.
Phil: It depends on the damage the submarines or terrorists do to their opponents.
If the U-boats had lost half, three-fourths, or even 95 percent of their number but inflicted such losses on Atlantic convoys as to prevent the Allies from operating in Europe, then their efforts could be counted as successful. Especially by Hitler (a dictator, and a non-sailor to boot.)
One could argue that the IRA terrorists achieved at least some of their aims in Norther Ireland by disrupting normal life there and forcing a continued militarization of the province. I am not that well informed on the subject, but IIRC the revolutionaries/terrorists (depending on one’s viewpoint) in the former French colony of Algeria could be said to have done the same, as could the Jewish revolutionaries/terrorists in the British mandate of Palestine.
And of course, there is the truck bomber who hit the Marine barracks in Beriut. He is dead to be sure, but the US Marines left and the Hezbollah is still there AFAIK.
One could also argue that the extreme casualties sustained by Torpedo Squadron 8 at Midway were insturmental in winning the battle, as though al aircraft and all men but one were lost, they caused the Japanese fighter cover to go down low to intercept them, making the following highly successful attack by the dive bombers much easier and effective.
I think the numbers are even worse than the statistics imply. I’m willing to bet that a great number of the survivors were kids who had met the minimum age requirements for service in 1944 and 1945, probably seventeen year-olds who were still undergoing training.
I’ve read at least one account (possibly the little book U-977, which is the one I find myself referring to more often than most) which pointed out that by 1945 the only experienced U-Boat crewmembers surviving were the ones on boats that were still working up for combat or which were damaged and re-fitting. Almost everyone else was a casualty.
I’d like to see how many crewmembers who were serving prior to May, 1943 (when the rate of U-Boat losses skyrocketed above the rate of replacements) survived to the end of the war. I’ll bet the number is very small indeed.
In order to get at the true significance of the losses, I’d guess it’s also not a good idea to average them out over the 5-6 year period. The pendulum swung dramatically from the early days of rich pickings for U boats to a killing ground as technology, convoy tactics, air cover and, of course, intelligence (Enigma) improved.
Also, if the U boat figures are amazing, imagine the fleet of 5,000+ ships they sank and the 75-80, 000 sailors who died.
The Battle of the Atlantic lasted five years and for Churchill "“The only thing that ever really frightened me during the war was the U-boat peril”. It truly was an immense struggle.
In case any of you haven’t seen this film, I would highly recommend “Das Boat” made in 1982 in Germany about just one U-Boat mission by just one U-Boat crew.
Anyway you look at it, that would easily be in the Top 3 War films ever made. And I understand there was a “director’s cut” released about 5 years ago which added another 20 minutes or so to the original gripping film.
I once met Jurgen Prochnow in a supermarket down here in 1990 (he was making a film) and I thanked him for his performance as the Captain in the film. He was genuinely touched I think.
I’m trying to remember the prelude to “Das Boot” in which a statistic is given…Something like 40,000 Germans worked in the U-boats. But I don’t remember how many died. The number was either 10,000 or 30,000, but the latter seems a bit too high, although it matches up with the 75% assertion.
Adding the figures I posted above gives a total of 26,987 dead. The website I linked to appears relatively trustworthy, in that the author has gone to the trouble of listing the fate of each individual u-boat (including, strangely, one sunk by land-based artillery fire.
A tour was 30 missions with a loss rate of 4 to 5 percent. In other words, there was statistically no chance of completing a tour, although of course many did. I suspect U-boat odds were worse.
For both services, the high loss rate was sustained by censoring the loss rates and the high quality of individuals recruited.
One thing to consider about the U-Boats is that despite their very high loss rates and the total compromise of their communications is, as Churchill conceded, how close they cam to achieving their goals of preventing resupply of the Allies in Europe and causing the downfall of the UK.
Imagine how different things might have been if Enigma had not been broken at all, or broken when it was. Or if there had been 25 or 50 percent more U-boats.
And then consider the US Submarine effort in the Pacific; far fewer subs, more distance, poor torpedoes. Yet once they they got it together, they strangled Japanese efforts to supply themselves with war materials.
The Soviets understood this when they built the submarine fleet that they did from 1945 through 1992.
I bring this up because it seems most seafaring nations understand that despite the inherent vulnerabilities of submarines and the inevitable high losses when the shooting starts, they are potentially very decisive weapons. I would imagine every submarine sailor understands this the instant the hatch closes.
The odds were increased for some of the poor bastards on bombers because if they didn’t get a picture of their bombs detonating the mission wasn’t counted.
“Tour” is short for “tour of duty”, which is effectively a specific length of time spent in military service. At a generic level, it can refer to people, equipment or military units, and describes the duration of a particular task, duty or mission. A bomber crewman’s tour was measured in terms of the number of combat missions they took part in. In World War II it was generally a period of time or number of missions spent on the front line before being withdrawn for long-term recuperation; in other conflicts a soldier can return home permanently once their tour of duty is complete.
Once you completed your tour of duty, you could theoretically return home. RAF Bomber Command crews had a 30-mission first tour, and then usually served as instructors to new crews. After around six months ‘recuperating’ as an instructor they undertook a 20-mission second tour; if they survived this, they could remain as instructors for the rest of the war (or volunteer for more).