Forced Abortion?

[OpalCat]

This is from the "She's Having a Baby" thread, but it is buried on page three and isn't really on topic, so I'm starting a new one. Do you think a parent has the right to force their daughter to have an abortion? I don't. I could conceivably understand forced adoption, but not abortion.

What do you think?

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[Monty]

Marxxx: your "if...then..." line falls apart when sense rears its head. It is possible for a female human at the ripe old age of 9 years to enter puberty and to become pregnant.

Now you're not seriously saying a 9 year old is old enough to raise a child and get a job and have a plase of her own, are you?

If so, then you're more of a moron than your posting evidences at present.

[OpalCat]

ChiefScott:
An adoption would take care of that situation perfectly.

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[ChiefScott]

Only after the child is born Opal.

What about prenatal care, care for the mother (child), new close for pregnant child, etc.

Am I, as a taxpayer, to be expected to pay for this bad, childish decision to become pregnant? Is the pregnant girl's family?

[ChiefScott]

New clothes... sorry.

[OpalCat]

Many adoption agencies have financial aid for pregnant women who are planning on putting thier child up for adoption.

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[Markxxx]

Monty
Member posted 09-26-1999 01:32 PM
Marxxx: your "if...then..." line falls apart when sense rears its head. It is possible for a female human at the ripe old age of 9 years to enter puberty and to become pregnant.
Now you're not seriously saying a 9 year old is old enough to raise a child and get a job and have a plase of her own, are you?
If so, then you're more of a moron than your posting evidences at present

First of all I said IF, that is a conditional statement. Where did I ever say a nine year old should get a job? I did not. When you quote please do so it makes sense.

Second, if a nine year old is pregnant you STILL must get her imput about having a medical procedure done.

Again substitue BLIND for BABY. IF she were 9 and blind and had a chance to see again and it could cost her her life, would you as a parent deny her say in the procedure. Simply because it is inconvenitent for you to not have her sighted. Would you say it is better to risk death and be able to see than to be alive and blind.

As my post indicated having an abortion should never be forced. Should a parent influence - YES. That is what being a parent means. But force a medical procedure on a child. NO.

So the 9 year old has a baby. You as a family DEAL WITH IT. If that nine year old got run over by a train and lost a leg. Would you give her away because it is inconvenient for you to take care of her. Because the money spent on trips to Disneyland must now go for her therapy. No you wouldn't you would accept it, pay for the therapy, the same way you would help her raise her child till she's 16 and CAN THEN go out and get a job.

The orginal post said force a kid to get an abortion. The word force means the kid doesn't want to but you make her. If she wanted the abortion you wouldn't have to force her.

All your doing by forcing a kid to unwillingly have an abortion is telling the kid that the way to deal with a problem is to throw it out. And I'll bet when the parents(who force that child) get old and can't take care of themselves the first place that child will put the parents is somewhere out of sight and mind. Because that is what they were taught.

[TVeblen]

Oh, I knew I'd regret getting involved in this...

The abortion is the major issue only in the sense that it's the tough, awful, obscene choice confronting good people as to what's the best to do. I doubt the most hardened loser doesn't on some level agonize over this. There just isn't a huge market out there for recreational abortions.

It always hurts, and the parties involved do not undertake the loss and the waste lightly. To assume they do is to belittle their pain. But that all begs the question: WHO WILL RAISE THE CHILD?

Before anyone invokes comfy platitudes, take a good long look at the realities of adoption. It's awful, it's wrong but it's real: children of mixed race, developmental problems and/or older than the age of "cuteness" are rarely adopted. Children of abandoned families are rarely adopted and allowed to grow up with their siblings.

Kids aren't theories, or policies. They're living human beings who get thrown away, not because of anything they've done, but because it takes YEARS and EFFORT and SACRIFICE to rear them. Birth is easy, but rearing a child, well, that's a miracle.

Until someone finds a solution to this waste of people, through abortion or kids thrown away, it will continue. It's a failure of hope and heart and maturity. But it's real, and anyone who condenses it into convenient platitudes belittles the human pain.

But *children are not theoretical"! A child, any child, needs at least a decade and a half solid committment of care, sacrifice and love to raise. Until that crucial question is answered, the problem will remain:

Who will raise the child?

Veb

[White Wolf]

The way I see it, the abortion should not even be a choice for the pregnant child. The parents should say, "No, absolutely not." Let the child go through the embarassment of being young and pregnant. Let her go through the painful birth. Maybe she will learn her lesson. (Of course, the baby should be given up for adoption - there are many families out there who want to adopt but can't because of "red tape".)
I know from "experience" how embarassing it is. No, I was never pregnant. In 8th grade we did the "sugar baby" project where we were given bags of sugar and had to attach baby-doll heads, arms, and legs and treat it like a real baby for 2 weeks. We had to take it EVERYWHERE. Some of ours looked real from a distance, especially since they were wrapped in real baby blankets. You wouldn't believe some of the looks my group of friends and I got. Sometimes people would look so disgusted at us, that we would walk over and show them the "babies" weren't real. Talk about humiliation.

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White Wolf

"Honesty is the best policy, but insanity is a better defense."

"Half the world is composed of idiots, the other half of people clever enough to take indecent advantage of them."

[Persephone]

White Wolf, that might be a good idea, if only teen pregnancy was the stigma it used to be. It isn't anymore. That's why there's so many pregnant teens.

[ChiefScott]

Shee.
I don't want to tangle with anyone. But, I don't see why another unwanted child should be brought into the world.
I don't advocate abortion as a means of birth control. Proper measures should be taken before sex.
But I also don't advocate, babies as substitutes for dolls; a means of getting love; and every pregnancy which is aborted legally as the reason why qualified people can not adopt.
As a head of a family with a pregnant daughter, you'd have to weigh other options. Even with financial support for prenatal care.
Your daughter would be dealing with quite a stigma, for quite a long time. Who's gonna help her through with that.
What if in the third trimester of her pregnancy it is discovered the child would be born, underdeveloped or (goforbid) deformed? Who'd adopt the child then? Would the family be required to take care of it? Would the State take it off your hands once the "girl has been taught a lesson, by the pain of chilbirth"?
This isn't even dealing with a minority or bi-racial child!
My mother has acted as foster mother for crack-babies biracial babies, hispanic babies, black babies, babies suffering from their mothers' dependence to alcohol and a variety of other problems. She takes them from infancy 'til 2 years old -- then they are put into permanent foster homes.
No one wants to adopt these perceived "imperfect" babies.
So taking that into account, if my daughter became pregnant at a very young age, I would like the option of aborting the pregnancy -- even over my daughter's objections.

I'm not saying that I'd do it... I just don't want that option taken away from me as a parent.

[AHunter3]

I agree with Opal. Forcing someone to have an abortion is a lot like raping them, and there's never a right reason for doing it.

Of course, I also support the untrammeled right of any pregnant female to obtain an abortion regardless of age.



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Designated Optional Signature at Bottom of Post

[Monty]

Marxxx:

First of all I said IF, that is a conditional statement. Where did I ever say a nine year old should get a job? I did not. When you quote please do so it makes sense.

I'd love to; however, your if/then construction (and that's what it was no matter how many times you shout "I said IF") did not make sense itself--the "if" was followed by a nonsensical "then" statement. Deal with it. You did say the 9 year old should get a job etc. by using that if/then construction. Oh, my mistake. I guess being forced into parentage isn't applicable to all females who gestate. At least in your view.

Now that that's out of the way--

An abortion is a medical procedure. So's giving birth, believe it or not. Now any ethical doctor (for those of you dead set against abortion at all costs: save the comments about abortion doctors not being ethical) wouldn't force any patient to undergo any medical procedure. The salient point is that a minor's consent to any procedure can be given, according to the law, by the guardians. Those guardians are usually the parents, but not always.

For those dead set against abortion: now let's say this particular pregnant child was impregnated by either a rape or incest. What's your take on that? Does the potential child (the fetus) have a right to life or not? If yes, then what about the danger to the pregnant minor's life?

[Persephone]

I don't think so, especially if the girl in question is old enough to voice her opinion. One is not unconscious when an abortion is performed, so I would think that if the girl is able to vocalize her objections, the doctor would not perform the procedure, regardless of what the parents have to say. At least, I would hope that the doctor would not do it.

I do not know what the law has to say on this, though.

[ChiefScott]

I'll assume that the girl still lives at home.

With that being said, yes. A child born to a child affects the entire family. What'll be done with the child while its mother is at school? Who'll pay for costs incurred during the pregnancy and after? What were the circumstances behind the "impregnation"?

I feel the girl's lost the right to make her own decisions if she decided to become pregnant on purpose.

There are many variables (age, wealth of family, involvement of the father and his family, etc.), but without your having specifed them I'd have to say "yes."

[Shadowfox]

I think it would depend on my daughter's age and her level of maturity. If she were 16 and fairly mature, then I would leave it up to her. But if she was 12 and still acted like a 10 year old, then I probably would make her get an abortion because I don't think she could handle it, either physically or emotionally.

But, like Cristi said, I don't know what the law about this subject is around here, so I couldn't really tell you for sure what I would/could do.

Shadowfox

[TVeblen]

Wow, this is a hard one.

Offhand, I'd lean toward Chief Scott's postion, with some modifications. It would all depend on the girl and the family involved. I'd hope each situation would be handled individually.

The case I'm thinking of is where the girl at age 15 was wild as a mink, sleeping with any carbon based life form available, a gang member and a drug addict. She got preganant, inevitably, and her parents insisted on the abortion.

In this instance, the exhausted parents were reluctant to take on raising another child, as the drug use and lack of prenatal care had already caused severe damage to the baby. And the siblings of the Girl From Hell were showing signs of problems, as there just wasn't enough parental resourcs left over for them.

As awful as this issue is, I suspect there are many shades of gray. But somewhere in all the discussion, the hard, HARD reality of raising the child has to be considered. If adoption is rejected, then what? Who will put in all the years of sacrifice and loving it takes to rear a child?

Veb

[Markxxx]

Abortion or Adoption I would have to say no. Abortion is strictly a personal issue. You don't force anyone to have a medical procedure agains their will.

Suppose your child was blind and there was an operation that could bring back her sight OR kill her. Would you force her to have that operation just because it is inconvenient or costly for the family because she can't see. (which it would be. A child that can see obviously would be easier to raise)

If your child had acne would you make her take medicine for it, if she didn't want to, just because her acne makes her look ugly and it shames you?

People don't lose there rights just because they do something on purpose. We still treat AIDS cases (most of which are self induced) Lung Cancer (85% caused by first hand smoke).

I have nothing against abortion but it is soley an issue between the mother and the father. Nor am I saying the girl (or father) shouldn't be responsible. If my daughter chose to have (and keep) the child and was 16. I would tell her fine but your action means you drop out of school, get your GED at night and find a job.
If she is old enough to get pregnent she is old enough to decided what to do with it and old enough to bear the results of her choice.

[Northern Piper]

I'd be awfully surprised if the doctor would perform the abortion if the girl said no. I'd also be awfully surprised if the law would allow the girl's parents to force her to have the abortion.

Applying force to another person without that person's consent is assault, both civilly and criminally. Granted, parents can consent to medical procedures on behalf of their children, but only up to a certain age and maturity level of the child. Once that point is reached, the child has a say in the matter as well.

I would think that for something as major as an abortion, for a condition which is not life- or health-threatening, the parents could not override the girl's objection.

[Zulu]

As an adoptee, I'd like to throw my two cents in. I apologize now for my ranting.

More than once in this thread 'thrown away' is used as a term for adopted babies.

I was not 'thrown away'. My birth mother was 19 when she had me. She knew she could not provide a good, stable life for me. So she relinquished me. It wasn't an easy decision, of course, and like the vast majority of birth mothers, I'm sure she went through emotional hell. I can't even begin to tell you how angry I get when people use terms like 'thrown away'. I was not 'thrown away' like a piece of trash. I was not unwanted. She knew she could not take care of me, so she gave me to someone who could. Any adoptees who feel 'thrown away' have some serious issues to deal with, because it's just not the case. And how dare anyone else think so, let alone say so. It is an ignorant, uninformed attitude.

Wait lists for adoption are years long. My parents signed up in 1971, and they didn't get me until 1980. The reason the lists are so long? People want to adopt children. There are more prospective adoptive parents than there are children. I know several couples who are foster parents for children with disabilities. My own aunt and uncle are foster parents who take in abused and disabled children, care for them, and eventually relinquish them for adoption. They have adopted several of the children themselves. They have up to 10 children in their home at any given time. Some of the children are as old as 16, and some are newborns. All of them are adopted with in a few months. This includes children of mixed races, babies born addicted to alcohol and crack, Downs' syndrome, blind children, deaf children, you name it. They all end up in good, caring, loving, devoted homes.

Zulu

[Cap'n Crude]

(Warning -- long post ahead)

Zulu --

I don't mean to belittle your experience as an adopted child, but the very circumstances of your birth and subsequent adoption take you out of this discussion, as far as personal experience is concerned. Your bio-mom was 19 years old, as you say -- this means she was not a minor, and the decision was hers to make. She made what appears to have been the best choice for you and for her.

When dealing with minors, there are a lot of different issues. First, there's a strong likelihood that a minor mother will not have very well-developed decision-making powers (i.e. she went and got her dumb jailbait ass knocked up, to put it bluntly) and may have a lot of illusions about bearing and raising children that simply aren't true. This will probably leave a lot of emotional scars on ther mother, the child, and everybody nearby.

Second, there's the health of both parties. The younger you are, the more likely you are to suffer death or permanent harm while trying to carry a child to term. the risks are just as bad for the baby, in terms of birth defects and survival rate.

Third, a minor is going to have a lot more obstacles to raising that child than will a young (but major) woman. Your mom probably finished high school, Zulu, and once upon a time a HS education was all you needed to get by. Can we say the same of a 14-year-old in today's world?

Somebody else on this board has tried to turn the argument around by substituting blindness for pregnancy. Is it just me, or does this make no sense? The kid could either have sight restored or die. Either way (forgive my bluntness here) the problem is solved, and it only involves one life. Furthermore, blindness is probably easier to cope with in this case -- you'll have already been accustomed to caring for a sight-impaired person, and might be able to fix it. With pregnancy, you're dealing with the baby's life if not aborted, the mother's life which will almost certainly be wrecked if she has the kid, the family which will have to take care of them both for years and years, and let's not forget the father and his family -- they will probably be responsible for child support payments for the next 18 years.

I am aware that some people have been able to make the teen pregnancy thing work out in the end. Those cases are exceptions. The typical 15 or 16 year old girl is going to wreak havoc in her little part of the world by having that baby, and we'll all suffer for it.

The solution is not to put more children up for adoption -- despite what you may hear, there are plenty of kids on the market. Most adopting parents are looking for healthy white infants. If you're a minority, or you have a physical/emotional/developmental problem, or you're older than age 3, there's very little hope of you ever being adopted. Sad but true.

All that having been said, would I make my (non-existant) daughter have an abortion in this case? It all depends on her age, her health, her maturity level, the family's finances, and so much more. I hope that I'd have raised her to see that abortion was an alternative that might be best here, so no force would be involved.

--Da Cap'n

[okatym]

Good Morning Capn:

How can you say that the fact that Zulu is adopted exempts any valid point he/she may make regarding this discussion? That is ridiculous! It doesn't matter if Zulu's birth mother was 40. The very INSTANT she decided to let someone else give Zulu what she couldn't give, Zulu became the poster child for why the CHOICE should be adoption. (They did pick a rather unfortunate name for a little tyke, though )

I cannot advocate taking away the right to choose, but as I said, I wish the CHOICE was adoption.

In these days we have school guidance counselors advising, arranging, and even driving girls to get abortions, WITHOUT the knowledge or consent of their parents. With no control or participation over such major events in these girls lives, how could we even FATHOM that parents COULD legally force them into abortion? Is it just that nobody wants anybody to face consequences anymore? I mean, parents can't force a girl to keep a baby, but they can force her to abort it? The result is that nobody has to know that she had sex, got pregnant, pissed off her parents, had a baby, gave it up or kept it. Life can go on like nothing happened. Nobody's the worse for it...right?

But what about Zulu? Thrown away is not what happened there. That's what happened to that fetal tissue that got sucked out and flushed down the toilet somewhere else.

[pldennison]

okaytm, if you think that the women who do have abortions do not have any consequences or get to avoid facing them, you are quite possibly certifiably insane. I'm not going to speak for any women, but of the women I do know who have had them, contrary to popular conception, they do not approach them with the cavalierness of getting a fucking manicure.

[OpalCat]

I'm not saying that I'd do it... I just don't want that option taken away from me as a parent.

You're assuming you have that option to begin with. I talked to my mom about it (she is an attorney specializing in representing children) and here is what she said:
"I don't think the parents have a legal right to force an abortion, and the recent court cases giving minors constitutional rights to choose would support that"

I think that what happens, more than likely, is that parents bully the daughter into agreeing the proceedure; if she told the doctor no when she got there, he/she would probably not perform the abortion.


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OpalCat's site: http://opalcat.com
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[Persephone]

if she told the doctor no when she got there, he/she would probably not perform the abortion.

Just out of curiosity, could a doctor get into trouble for performing an abortion on a minor, over said minor's objections, even with the parents there, saying "do it"?

[Cap'n Crude]

How can you say that the fact that Zulu is adopted exempts any valid point he/she may make regarding this discussion? That is ridiculous!

Before we go any further, let me point out that I never said Zulu's opinions would not be valid -- I said that the circumstances of that adoption were different enough from the topic at hand that it was not germane to the discussion. Every opinion is valid, even the stupid ones -- or I'd never be able to post here. ;-)

It doesn't matter if Zulu's birth mother was 40. The very INSTANT she decided to let someone else give Zulu what she couldn't give, Zulu became the poster child for why the CHOICE should be adoption.

I will not debate abortion vs. adoption with you here, or anyplace else. I only state what my thoughts on the subject are, not what the choice "should" be.

Regarding what Zulu's mom couldn't give, that's as may be. What an *underage* mother couldn't give is a reasonable hope of the child's future physical and mental health, whether the child was kept or put up for adoption.

I'm glad Zulu was placed into a good and loving home. It doesn't happen often enough. In all likelihood, a child given over as a ward of the state will remain so until it's 18 years old, unless it's adopted within a year or two of birth. The odds are worse for minority children and children with disabilities.

More to follow once I get caught up on this subject.

--Da Cap'n

[pldennison]

Questions: If the consequences of abortion are so severe, then why do people encourage them so? What is better about having the abortion consequences than the adoption consequences?
Answer: "Nobody has to know & my life can go on like nothing ever happened."

Real answer: Because everybody is not you, and some people are going to make decisions you don't like. (And, FTR, most pro-choice people I know, as much of a cliche as it might be becoming, prefer abortions to be legal but rare. Eliminate the circumstances that make abortion a sometimes necessary procedure, and you eliminate abortions. Voila.)

In any case, some people don't want to carry a baby to term. Some people don't want their parents to know. Some people could be in physical danger if their parents knew they were pregnant. Some people can't afford or avail themselves of prenatal care. I'm not a woman, but I'm sure there are a thousand and one reasons why a woman might choose an abortion.

[SanibelMan]

This topic is headed right for Great Debates - right? What say ye, Eutychus?

[Atrael]

I will also add my answer to the above. I have been a partner in a choice to abort a child. I was involved with a woman while I was in the Military stationed overseas. The woman I was with didn't want to get married...we both agree that we were not at a point in our lives that we could handle a child well. Because we were stationed in another country, adoption really wasn't a possibility (yes, we checked) and on a small military base, single-unwed pregnate women tended to be looked down upon.

I went with her to the procedure. She was (mercifully) about knocked out with the drugs they gave her, however, I was with her the entire time (she had a deathly fear of needles)and I live with that memory every day of my life...it's been over 3 years now, and I still think of it often.

I regret every day that I didn't use better protection, that I couldn't have cared for a child at that time, that we couldn't have found a loving home for it, and that I will never get to know that little one.

As a parent, would I force my little girl to have an abortion?..I don't know...and while I hear many high and lofty moral decisions spouted here, but unless someone posted here that they have been in this situation, I don't think anyone can say what they would do for sure. Do parents Legaly have the right to make these decisions for their children?...Not right now, but I can put my child in Military School, or have his tonsils pulled....should abortion be in there also?...(sigh) I think it should...there is no child that has enough life expiriance to make a decision like that. My parents made decisions that I thought were wrong all the time, but that was their job as my parents, to draw upon their greater knowledge to raise me. And I find that as I get older, the more correct those decisions seem.

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[Zulu]

Sorry this is long, but I'm addressing a few issues.

FYI, my birth mother had not yet finished high school. She was still a minor (18) when I was conceived, and she made the decision then to relinquish me, and started on the paperwork. She did not have a job and was still dependant on her parents. I didn't exactly end up in the best home, my family turned out to be royally screwed up, but they did the best they could and I'm still convinced that it was the best thing for me.

The point of my previous post was only to point out that 'thrown away' is a hurtful and untrue term. I recently read a book on adoption reunions, and I don't have the exact stats for Canada, but the percentage of children who were put up for adoption because they simply weren't wanted was astoundingly small. Almost all of the mothers wanted to keep the baby, and it nearly killed them to give their baby to strangers.

It's true that a problem with adoption is the mother not knowing how her child is, if s/he's happy and well cared for. But same is true for the child. The reason for this is not adoption, but how adoptions are handled.

Closed adoptions end up being most traumatic for mother and child. Closed adoptions are why adoption is a bad thing. Neither party can find out any information about the well being of the other without going through years of paperwork and lots of money. I'm very fortunate to live in the most open province in Canada for adoption. When I turn 19 next month, all I have to do is send a letter to the adoption agency, and I get all the information they have that I want, and I can then choose if I want to contact my birth mother. And contrary to popular belief, adoption reunions are often a good thing for everyone involved.

I know a woman who is an adoptee. She is now married. Her adoptive mother forced her to have an abortion when she was 14, and the woman is unable to have children now because something went wrong with the abortion. Most young girls won't have to be dragged kicking and screaming to the doctor. She was young, scared, and under a lot of pressure from her mother, so she caved. She would have chosen adoption, but she didn't even know that she was adopted. She didn't know it was an option.

I'm assuming that the girl wasn't raped and willingly had sex. I believe that if a girl is a minor, lives at home, and has no means of supporting a child by herself, her only choices should be adoption or abortion. But it should still be her choice. She made the decision to take on the responsibility of having sex, but having to raise the baby is not the best situation for the baby. So what if she's a minor? She went out and got herself knocked up. If she decides to keep the baby, get a job, and move out, what kind of life is the child going to have? If the kid can get a job at all, she'll be making minimum wage. Maybe if she's lucky, the boyfriend will help out. Keeping the baby should not be an option, because the odds are against the child having a good life in that atmosphere.

Prevention of pregnancy in the firstplace is clearly the most important thing, but kids are going to have sex. A 16 year old kid is not thrilled about going to the drugstore to buy condoms, so they decide to just take their chances. Parents need to openly address the issue of safer sex with their kids directly, tell them what the risks are, and provide them with contraceptives. Perhaps if more parents would do that, there would be fewer teen pregnancies.

It's easy to put the blame on the teenagers for being irresponsible, but the parents are also to blame if they didn't do everything they could to teach them responsibility.

Zulu

[Suzeanne]

More adpoted kids speak out.

My mother made an error. She was 16. She thought out her choices, and when I was born, I was handed right over to the adoption agency.

My grandparents, on the other hand, wanted me. They fought her and the agency.

I was adopted anyway.

This was well before all of the "children's rights" issues really came to a head. My mother won.

I respect the decision completely. I don't find any room for blame for an intelligent decision that she made, knowing fully she had made a mistake. It's a choice that, keeping her decisions in mind, I made as well at one point when my live-in significant other changed his mind in the last trimester and walked out on us. There is now a little boy, 11 years old, with a happy family that would never have been able to have a child.

"Forced" abortion, as a concept, really bothers me, just as much as the thought of a forced birth. You just can't win on health issues once the mistake is made, be it condom breakage, a missed pill, sheer lack of efficiency on the part of birth control or even being foolish enough to not use any at all. Once a pregnancy is confirmed, the risk is already there. Abortions can go wrong, the child could be miscarried, both mother and child could be lost in childbirth (my experiences with bleeding to death, for the record).

Once the situation has occurred, the best thing that can be done is to offer all the intelligent, correct information possible and give support to those involved. A forced decision would be an even greater mistake than the one that started the situation in the first place.

[Monty]

Zulu: 18 years old is no longer a minor in the United States.

[Zulu]

I'm not in the United States. I'm in British Columbia, Canada, where 19 is legal age.

[Monty]

Appreciate the clarification, Zulu. Tnanks.

[Zulu]

You're welcome.

[TVeblen]

Zulu: I believe I was the one who used the term "thrown away". Until I reread what I'd written, I didn't realize how unclear I'd been.. You are quite right that adopted children are in no sense thrown away. Their birth parents made a hard sacrifice, and the adoptive parents *chose* those children to love and raise as their own.

You and all adoptees truly are chosen ones. I apologize for my clunky wording that you quite rightly found insulting.

The children I referred to are the many who are NOT adopted. All too often they get shuffled around a system that is at times inept and at best a faint, impersonal shadow of family life. Those kids would love nothing more than to have someone adopt them and love them back.

There just aren't enough wonderful folks like your adoptive parents out there. The sad fact is that way too many kids, by not being chosen to join a family, are rejected: thrown away. Many miraculously go on to make successes of their lives, but they have to transcend a huge void that, IMO, no child should ever have to face. Kids need and deserve *families" to belong to.

I should have been much clearer in what I wrote.

Veb

[Persephone]

As an adoptee, a birthmother, and one who has had an abortion, let me toss in two more cents.

I have been so blissfully lucky that I've been an adult during the times of my two unplanned pregnancies. The first time around, I chose adoption. No one forced me. The second time, I chose abortion. No one forced me into that either. Both decisions were the right ones for me to make at the time I had to make them. Seeing as how I was an adult, though, I was really the only one who could make the choice.

If I had been a teenager, I know I would have wanted, at the very least, to be able to make my wishes known, and taken into consideration. I would have resented anyone trying to force me into anything. My mother was forced into giving up a baby (not me--I have an older sister). It affected her for years. When she and my older sister were reunited in 1988, my mom changed, and for the better. She no longer worried about what had happened to her child. The depression she seemed to fall into every spring (when my sister was born) vanished.

I have an open adoption. I know the daughter I relinquished eleven years ago. I do not worry about her. I know she is with a family that loves her, and she's turning out beautifully. As for the abortion I had, well, sometimes I do get to wondering what things would be like had I not made that choice. Then I start thinking about what my life was like at the time I had the abortion. It sucked. My mental state was only about two steps from insanity. I could not have gone through with another adoption--even though my first one was successful, it was still painful. Parenting? No way. I would have lost that child to the state.

I'm an adoptee, too. My stepfather adopted me when I was two years old. He was 18 when I was born. My mom was 19, old enough to tell her parents to get stuffed when they tried to force her to give me up too. She couldn't do it twice, either. But then she met my dad (step). He was brave enough, for 1967, to marry my mom & adopt me. I will always admire him for that. And I admire my birthfather too, for having the presence of mind to realize that it was best to just let me go.

While the numbers of teen girls getting pregnant is appalling, I still don't believe that they should be forced into having abortions, or adoptions. They absolutely need to be made aware of their options. They need to be taught how not to get pregnant. They need to know that just because teen pregnancy is common, that doesn't mean it's cool. They need to know that having & raising kids changes your life for-freaking-ever, not just for a minute or two.

Okay, that was more than two cents. And sorry about the stream-of-consciousness thing, too.

[okatym]

PLDennison:
I'm glad you're aware of the consequences of abortion and the problems & trama that women go through afterwards. I do not think that it is a trivial consequence.

Questions: If the consequences of abortion are so severe, then why do people encourage them so? What is better about having the abortion consequences than the adoption consequences?
Answer: "Nobody has to know & my life can go on like nothing ever happened."

I may be certifiably insane, but at least I would never try to deny or hide my mistakes by making worse mistakes. I wouldn't encourage people to do that either.

[okatym]

PLDennison:

I had a summertime nanny (18 years old from my CHURCH) who had her 3rd abortion while she was living with me. I asked her if she needed anyone to go with her, but she took her best friend & boyfriend. She went for the abortion in the morning, and they all went camping THAT evening. (Of course, she didn't tell me it was her 3rd...Her best friend let it slip a few weeks later.) No, she didn't get a manicure in between.

Would your friends who have been so traumatized by their abortions ever do it again? Just curious.

[kellibelli]

If I had a daughter, she would get norplant, or those depro-provera shots every 3 months, or I would watch her take her pill every morning.

Adoption leaves you wondering where the kid is, if it is ok, etc
Abortion leaves the guilt of a life lost..
there is no happy resolution to an unwanted pregnancy.

Prevention, prevention, prevention!

Any woman on her third abortion should be sterilized.

[jane_says]

My answer to the question is an unqualified NO. Of course parents shouldn't be able to force their daughters to abort a pregnancy. My question is why fathers don't have a say in whether a child is aborted. I realize that in many instances, they probably don't deserve a say, but the same argument can be made about visitation rights.
I disagree that all women take having an abortion see it as the very drastic action that it is. I am a dispatcher for a security company, but we also handle some answering service accounts for doctors' offices, two of which are abortion clinics owned by the same doctor. I can honestly say that NEVER have I talked to a patient who seemed to grasp the severity of their own situation. They call for a price - "Do you accept (giggle giggle) Visa?" They call they day after - "I'm bleeding really heavily. And the three times I did this before, I didn't cramp this bad." I actually had a 15 year old girl call in and say she had had an abortion a few days previous, but she got drunk and forgot to use anything when she slept with her boyfriend. She wanted to know if she could get pregnant while she was still bleeding, and if so, would they please call in a morning-after pill? Geez! I just don't get it.

[kellibelli]

I have 2 boys, the oldest is 8, and showing signs of nearing puberty by 10 or so...and I plan to provide him with condoms, and an explanation of how to use them, along with the assertion that he is WAY to young to be having sex, and I will warn him that even if he uses them, it doesnt guarantee protection...

and I will tell him I will cut his dick off with the rusty scizzors if he gets a girl pregnant.

Just didnt want y'all to think I was putting all the onus on the girls.

[okatym]

Cristi:
That was very interesting reading...It sounds like you've been through the gamut with all of this adoption/abortion/baby business. Whew!!
And I understand that you are soon to give birth to Baby John. I wish you the best for you, Little John, and his Daddy. Let us know when the baby comes.
-Katy

[Persephone]

Okaytym: Thanks! After I let my husband know "it's time," I'll post.

[ChrisCTP]

What a difficult subject. (Opal, I'm sure you expected my response to this much sooner...sorry )

Forced abortion? Under certain circumstances. If the pregnant girl is under 14 (legal age of consent in most states), most definitely. As has been said, the younger you are, the more risk you take on. Both mom and baby are in danger, and not always because a teenager is less apt to properly take care of herself. It has much to do with the a young body, although able to concieve, not being physically ready to support itself and an additional life. No matter how well mom takes care of herself, she is still in the highest-risk category.

Rather than *forcing* the girl to have an abortion, though, it may be wiser to take her to speak with nurse-midwife or a doula. They are generally much more personable than OBs, and will be able to explain exactly what health risks she faces is she decides to try to carry the baby to term (no matter what her intentions are afterward). Having been a teenage girl myself, I know that I was far more open to listening to a calm, rational person than my hysterical mother--and more prone to making a good choice.

Beyond the legal age of consent, the choice ultimately has to lie with the person who is pregnant. I think parents would be wise to take such a situation in stride, and discuss the girl's options (all of them) with her. They should outline in great detail what support they will (or will not) give in any given situation, and let her know exactly how they feel about her capability (or incapability, as the case may be) to be a parent.

Plenty of parents speak openly with their kids about sex and pregnancy prevention. Obviously, some kids still mess up and get pregnant (or get someone pregnant). I don't think this has demographic limitations. The decision to give your child up for adoption, abort, or raise him/her yourself is a difficult one, no matter how wealthy your family is, no matter how intelligent you are, no matter what your feelings about the baby's father.

It is an agonizing place to be (and I can only imagine, having never actually been there) and a majority of girls don't make such decisions lightly. Therefore, even as parents, who are we to question them?

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Veni, Vidi, Visa ... I came, I saw, I bought.

[Cap'n Crude]

If the pregnant girl is under 14 (legal age of consent in most states), most definitely.

ChrisCTP -- What states do you live in? AFAIK, the age of consent in the USA is 18, with a few exceptions which I can't specify without research.

[humor]If it turns out you're right, I might have to start cruising the middle schools for some legal tail!! "Hey baby, want some candy? I can help you with your homework..."[/humor]

--Da Cap'n

[ChrisCTP]

Cap'n: Unless changes have been made that I'm not aware of, (and there are provisos and conditions) the legal age of sexual consent is fourteen.

If it were illegal for people under 18 to have sex, we'd probably see a lot of teen girls being fined and put on probation when they turned up pregnant, wouldn't we?

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Veni, Vidi, Visa ... I came, I saw, I bought.

[AHunter3]

KelliBelli:

If I had a daughter, she would get norplant, or those
depro-provera shots every 3 months, or I would watch her
take her pill every morning.

Aye, you and me both.



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Designated Optional Signature at Bottom of Post

[AHunter3]

Okaytm:

I had a summertime nanny (18 years old from my CHURCH)
who had her 3rd abortion while she was living with me. I
asked her if she needed anyone to go with her, but she took
her best friend & boyfriend. She went for the abortion in the
morning, and they all went camping THAT evening. (Of
course, she didn't tell me it was her 3rd...Her best friend let it
slip a few weeks later.) No, she didn't get a manicure in
between.

Such was not my experience when I worked as a nurse trainee, but I'm sure such people do exist. OK, so women like that don't exactly reassure us that the decision properly remains in the hands of the pregnant. On the other hand, would you want them to reproduce?



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Designated Optional Signature at Bottom of Post

[Cap'n Crude]

The crime of having sex with a minor (usually called Statutory Rape) is rarely prosecuted because it's rarely discovered and reported. There have been several cases in the news, though, where a girl (or in some cases a boy) of age 15-17 had consensual sex with a teacher or other adult. When it's found out, the adult is invariably charged with rape.

The "criminal" in these cases is always the adult, since the law is designed to protect minors. Go ahead -- have rag-doll sex with the police chief's 16-year-old daughter and then tell him about it, maybe show him the video. After he beats the crap out of you, you'll wind up charged with statutory rape.

When both parties are minors, the male gets charged.

Statutory rape is usually used to add insult to injury, meaning you get caught doing something you both want to do, and society decides you need to pay for it anyway. (Adults shouldn't be shtupping children, but there are always exceptional cases). It's like sodomy -- "Hmmm, let's see what we can charge this poor asshole with to make an example of him."