mount rushmore

[thrama]

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mrushmore.html You missed what I thought was the reason Theodore Roosevelt is on Mount Rushmore: the establishment and promotion of National Parks on the model suggested by Muir. Great thing to do. My first impression of the mountain when I saw it after being familiar with pictures all my life was, "What a horrible defacement!" And what a nasty thing to do--to put all those white victors' faces on a Native American holy mountain.

[olsam]

Why was JFK such a great president? He's revered just because he got shot ergo martyred and cannonized. The view of his greatness is a product of the peak of the Cold War, but has less to do with actual achievements. I'd say that on the Karma Point scale, that the Bay of Pigs directly cancels out the Cuban Missle Crises. Hey, the founding of NASA was good.

So, really, why should JFK be cosidered a great president?

[tsdun]

Let's not get sidetracked onto debating JFK. Why did they include Teddy Roosevelt on Mt. Rushmore? So they could create the world's largest pair of spectacles!

[David Simmons]

From what I've heard Borglum had a pretty big ego. I read an article about the Mt. Rushmore memorial years ago in the old Saturday Evening Post in which the author said there were many (obviously jealous and small-minded people) who claimed that the head looked as much like Gutzon Borglum as it did Teddy Roosevelt.

[ejacobsen]

A small nit must be picked and then I shall respond to some of the other respondents:

The statement that "Borglum did none of the actual carving" is incorrect. There are quite a number of films and photographs showing Borglum in a bosun's chair running a bump hammer up on the faces. He seemed to be a very hands-on guy and pulled off a pretty significant task to get something that big to come out as well as it did.

Why do I care? I dunno. I'm from the Black Hills and Borglum and my grandfather were friends. Even though Borglum was by many accounts a bit temperamental and egotistical (traits not uncommon to high achievers), he does deserve credit where credit is due, even on this small nit. And I don't see any resemblance between Borglum and Teddy Roosevelt.

I also don't think that JFK should be judged for the military's failing in the Bay of Pigs. If it had worked (like if the fighter cover had actually shown up), he'd have been even more greatly revered. This could probably also be said of Jimmy Carter if the military rescue of the Iranian embassy hostages hadn't ended in tragedy. Leaders are often praised or reviled based more on luck than anything.

And if thrama thinks that Mt. Rushmore is a defacement he needs to go a few miles to the south and see the Crazy Horse Memorial, which is almost as large as Mt. Rushmore. The carving is an artists depiction of Crazy Horse since the man himself refused to be photographed or have his image captured in any way since that was something that white men did. So now he's the subject of one of the largest carvings on the planet, made by white folk, in the sacred Black Hills. Probably not the tribute he would have preferred.

[Khan]

Wouldn't Roosevelt's work as a trustbuster and allowing for unions to be created at a time where workers were being exploited warrant his inclusion? Or is this view inaccurate and/or naive?

On a personal note, that a monument to "the white victors" as it's been said is on a sacred mountain to indians makes me cringe.

P.S. How's the thing with Crazy Horse coming, anyway?

[LurkMeister]

There is a web site, www.crazyhorse.org, which includes updates on the status. From the news section:

Blasting on 22-Story Horse's Head
Underway on Crazy Horse Carving

(Crazy Horse Mem., S.D.)--Progress on the world’s largest mountain carving is contributing to record visitation at Crazy Horse in the Black Hills of South Dakota. The Memorial is a tribute to the Native American, all tribes.
The nine-story-high face of Crazy Horse alone is the largest sculpture in the world. The face was completed in 1998 after which blocking out began on the 22-story-high horse's head. The sculptural engineering involves some of the heaviest drilling and blasting of recent years, with the progress seen by more than one million visitors annually.

[Labor]

In addition to trustbuster let's not forget that the Panama canal allowd must shorter shipping times. And, good old TR won a nobel prize for peace. Must better than most presidents, FDR kept his public works projects domestic but did manage to win a war, our recent presidents pale in comparison.

By the way it is warmer in South Dakota. By the time your get out here everything is relative. Compared to North Dakota we are darn warm and scenic! Remember South Dakota is the more tropical of the Dakotas.

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

Hi Labor!
Welcome to the SDMB.

By the way it is warmer in South Dakota. By the time your get out here everything is relative. Compared to North Dakota we are darn warm and scenic! Remember South Dakota is the more tropical of the Dakotas.

Send us a picture of you in a grass skirt, doing the Hula, & playing the ukelele. In February.

[vanilla]

am I hallucinating, or did I read that someone proposed carving Reagan there also?

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

No. Eddie Haskell; yes, but not Reagan.

[olsam]

Originally posted by ejacobsen


I also don't think that JFK should be judged for the military's failing in the Bay of Pigs. If it had worked (like if the fighter cover had actually shown up), he'd have been even more greatly revered. This could probably also be said of Jimmy Carter if the military rescue of the Iranian embassy hostages hadn't ended in tragedy. Leaders are often praised or reviled based more on luck than anything.

You mean, sorta how the common consensus is that presidents get credit or blamed for how the economy does regardless of their direct involvement? Either way, I disagree with ejacobsen about JFK's potential for being a hero should the BoP have succeeded. What he would have done was to have approved the assassination of a foreign leader, not exactly polite or far-reaching in its thinking. Should it have been successful, the results would have been unpredictable. It's just as well that the BoP failed; it was a flawed strategy from the beginning.

And I don't think that the failed Iranian hostage rescue, should it have been successful, would have done much for Carter's appearance in the public eye. He was largely ineffectual, and the economy spiraled out of control during his tenure (regardless of his direct involvement). He went to Washington campaigning as an outsider, and look what it got him--he stayed an outsider. And this despite the fact that he is easily in the top three of presidents for raw brain power, and that he worked 16 hour days.

Again, I ask, if you discount the Martyr Factor, what makes JFK so great?

[John Corrado]

Just to make *my* point clear- I never actually stated that I thought JFK was a good president. I was merely pointing out the "Martyr Factor" that olsam alludes to, in trying to show that TR's recent death would only increase his popularity and presence in the minds of people of the '20's, thus making him a more likely candidate to show up on Mount Rushmore.

[Johanna]

OK. I always thought it had to do with T. Roosevelt's founding of the National Park System. He was the first great conservationist leader who used his presidential power to put into practice the ideals of John Muir, the first and the greatest Western conservationist and naturalist. Roosevelt was the first leader to take action on conservation of the West, on a huge scale. Mt. Rushmore being within the National Park System (it is, isn't it?), TR got credit for founding it. Even if Mt. Rushmore isn't within the National Park System, I think my argument still holds. If Roosevelt hadn't acted when he did, Yellowstone and Yosemite might have been paved over and turned into subdivisions or trailer parks for all we know.

Although I abhor the massive desecration of Indian sacred land, the Black Hills, the most sacred land of all... you have to admit the sculpture itself is astonishing for its success on purely artistic terms, considering the difficulty of blasting and banging away tons of rock on that gigantic scale, and having it still result in a work of art. The individual personalities and characters of the big 3 presidents came through clearly.

Washington: noble and heroic
Jefferson: visionary and dreamy
Lincoln: sad and pensive

As for TR, tucked away in the background looking like an afterthought, I'm afraid he came out looking rather blank and characterless. Part of the problem is his eyes being concealed behind those opaque disks of stone. TR's head looks only about half the size of Washington's head. Washington's eminent positioning on that promontory, his big hawklike nose jutting out into space, is especially dramatic.

[C K Dexter Haven]

Well, in terms of "descrating sacred lands", you gotta admit that it's more impressive than a casino with a huge neon sign.

[Irishman]

Okay, I'll be the one to say it. Sacred lands, schmakred lands, I say blast them all into monuments. After Crazy Horse, the next one should be to some icon of modern culture, say American Idol Kelly Clarkson and Justin whateverhisnameis.

And I don't even like American Idol.

[CalMeacham]

Part of the problem is his eyes being concealed behind those opaque disks of stone.

?????

Look at a picture of Mount Rushmore -- they only carved the frames, not the lenses. Roosevelt's eyes are prefectly visible.

[NinetyWt]

check this out for some kewl black & white home movies made of the construction of mount rushmore:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/rushmor...f_footage.html

I always knew I liked T. Roosevelt, but I didn't remember why. Some snippets from the cited article reminded me why:

http://www.time.com/time/time100/lea...roosevelt.html

"..............But T.R. deserves to be remembered, I think, for some acts more visionary than land grabbing south of the border. He fathered the modern American Navy, for example, while his peacemaking between Russia and Japan in 1905 elevated him to the front rank of presidential diplomats. He pushed through the Pure Food and Meat Inspection laws of 1906, forcing Congress to acknowledge its responsibility as consumer protector. .........

breakfast (T.R. thought nothing of guzzling 12 eggs at a sitting....

"Theodore!" Senator Henry Cabot Lodge was once heard shouting, "if you knew how ridiculous you look up that tree, you'd come down at once!" ..............

responsible for five new national parks, 18 national monuments and untold millions of acres of national forest. .................

when told that no law allowed him to set aside a Florida nature preserve at will.......................

"Is there any law that prevents me declaring Pelican Island a National Bird Sanctuary?" T.R. asked, not waiting long for an answer. "Very well, then," reaching for his pen, "I do declare it." "

my kinda guy lol

[Johanna]

OK, so TR's eyes are visible, his sculpture still lacks the bold, dramatic presence of the other 3. I can't see any individuality or personality in his image; it looks like an empty TR mask instead of the man himself. Which is an artistic failure, since TR had one of the boldest and most individual personalities of any president in real life, and it wasn't captured on Mt. Rushmore. Oh well, 3 out of 4 ain't bad.

[Threadkiller]

I heard this once and it even sort of makes sense!

Washington: Foundation
Jefferson: Expansion
Lincoln: Reuniting
Roosevelt: Defense

It sounds like an after-the-fact application but it reads well.

[RM Mentock]

Reads well?? It says, FERD. Shouldn't that be FRED?

O wait, I guess it's FEDR. OK that makes sense now.