Well now it really does seem that any hope of coinage reform is dashed in America.

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

I'm bringing this up again because of a few of things I've noticed recently.

(1) The U.S. Treasury is planning to redesign all the coins, but the four basic denominations--cent, nickel, dime, and quarter-- will be retained at their current size and weight. I heard this on TV news recently (but can't find a cite now despite dilligent googling).

(2) For the first time, I recently noticed that the 2001 series of one-dollar bills has appeared. So yes, they are going to keep printing these chits which are not worth enough even to mail three letters, or to buy a hotdog and a soda.

(3) For the first time in over a year, I used a fin to buy a $1.35 train ticket from one of the L.A. metro's vending machines. Passing lightly over the fact that I had a hell of a time finding a machine whose bill acceptor would actually take a $5 bill, and if I lived in a more sensible country I wouldn't have to buy a subway ticket from a machine with folding money, I was dismayed to find that the change came back, not as three Sackies, two quarters, one dime, and one nickel, but as 16 quarters, one dime and one nickel. Damn! I thought at least the dollar coins would continue to circulate in metro ticket and postage stamp vending machines.

So...my question, addressed to those of you who frequently use these types of vending machines, is whether you still get dollar coins in change, or if the dollars are basically all gone now. How about in cities like NY and Chicago, where people use metro vending machines more?

[lurkernomore]

IN NYC you can use credit cards in the Metrocard machines, and they use sackies prefrentially in giving change.

[lurkernomore]

Oh, and do you realize you got $4.15 in change? Good deal

[Bryan Ekers]

That dollar coin isn't gonna mean a damn thing until the U.S. Mint bites the bullet and phases out dollar bills. You'll have a few malcontents complaining, but we Canadians managed to live without our $1 and $2 notes (I keep an old $2 folded in my wallet for emergencies).

Vending machines of all kinds are easier to use, thouigh I've yet to find a parking meter that will take a $2 coin.

[hajario]

The people in the US, by and large, like their dollar bills. Personally, I almost never use vending machines and if I do, they take dollar bills. In any event, I would be very sad to see dollar bills go. It's just not the same putting a coin between a stripper's .........assets.

Haj

[Mr. Blue Sky]

There's a slot for those coins, you know.


:d&r:

[Kat]

Dollar bills won't be discontinued because people don't use the Sackies.

People don't use Sackies because they never get them as change (I've seen a Sackie twice--and only ever gotten one as change once, the other one I saw belonged to a friend of mine). People don't use Sackies because they can't be used in vending machines. I have yet to see a vending machine I could use a Sackie in, so I still have to save up quarters to do laundry (although the candy and pop machines will take dollar bills, at least). *sighs*

[lurkernomore]

actually, I see a lot of machines that take them. I've never gotten them in change, though, except from token booths/machines in the subway or the stamp machine at the post office.

[AskNott]

Many vending machines will take Sackies and Susies. When the Susies first came out, some amusement machines would give an extra play if you used a Susie.

[Fern Forest]

Originally posted by Bryan Ekers
You'll have a few malcontents complaining ...

I think it would be a whole lot more then a few. And I wouldn't call us malcontents but rather contents since we are quite happy with the way things are now.

U.S. Treasury on coin design changes. No answer, they just say it's up to Congress. Perhaps what you heard was some Congressman had submitted a proposal for a change but if it had been voted on and approved then it would be all over and we would have heard about it.

[TheLoadedDog]

Australia replaced its $1 bill with a coin in 1984, and the $2 became a coin in '88. In the 90s, 1c and 2c coins were eliminated. Later, our remaining banknotes switched from paper to polymer. There was opposition to these changes at the time, but later I think most people realised they were a good thing.

Even back in the 80s, one or two dollars didn't buy much, and the low denomination bills were always grimy and beat up. I think the average American will get to like S1 coins, given some time to get used to the idea.

[ElvisL1ves]

It won't change because, on the whole, we find bills more convenient than coins. They fold up nicely in a wallet, which is more easily securable than a pocket, and they don't wear out your pocket linings. Most vending machines do take dollar bills here, and even credit-card machines are coming into use (no cash at all). In the UK, where they don't even have bills for smaller denominations than 5 pounds / 8 dollars, carrying useful amounts of cash can be an annoying experience. The smallest remaining Canadian bill comes to only a little over $3 US, so the situation doesn't really compare.

We don't have a demand for dollar coins, but we do have one for eliminating pennies, though. I think the consensus now is that they're no longer worth the trouble. Many stores have penny bins at the counter so no one really has to bother with them anymore.

[Mudshark]

Not the pennies!

[astro]

Originally posted by TheLoadedDog
banknotes switched from paper to polymer. .

Australian bills are not printed on paper?

[KarlGrenze]

Originally posted by AskNott
Many vending machines will take Sackies and Susies. When the Susies first came out, some amusement machines would give an extra play if you used a Susie.

What I want to know is why some of the vending machines on campus will accept a Susie, but not a Sackie...

[Dignan]

Originally posted by astro


Australian bills are not printed on paper?

Nope, at least I don't believe so. Someone from Australia will eventually post on whether I'm right or not. I had a camp counselor from Australia and he showed us some bills and demonstrated how they wouldn't rip (for the most part). The plastic bills were more durable than paper. I have memory of seeing a pink or a purple bill, though I may be confusing them with the old Franc.

[TheLoadedDog]

The technology

The banknotes (it's Geocities, sorry)

Ripping an Australian banknote is like trying to rip an old T-shirt. If you just grab one and tug on it, you'll find it far superior to a paper note. Chances are you won't be able to tear it. However, if you nick the edge with something sharp, then it will tear much more readily than a paper one. On balance, they're stronger.

They're waterproof, and much cleaner than paper. I hated them at first, but like them now.

[Tars Tarkas]

Dollar coins are the devil. I have 2 sackies in my wallet i use to show off. i also have a $2 HK coin i found when i was loading my car in St. Louis to move out here. But i want my George Washingtons!!!

[GusNSpot]

I was saving all sorts of coins. Now I've come top the conclusion that it is a waste of time. I don’t think I can even make an impression on my grandkids. Nobody really cares about old stuff unless it is an all out grab for prefect history. Just a good set of coins needs to be 100 years old to be worth much at all and the interest would have done me better. I am using all my coins now. They will be a relic of the past in less than 20 years IMO. It will be imprints and electrical banking by then for everything.

[Pythagoras]

Pennies are utterly useless much of the time. They are used ONLY when somebody DOESNT want a lot of change. Much of the time when people recieve pennies they end up in the need a penny/take a penny jar so people can make sure they dont get pennies. It all amounts to, people essentially round to the nearest nickel themselves, discarding unwanted pennies and taking them while only spending a multiple of 5 cents of their money (with the penny amounts coming and going from the communal holding place). You might as well save everyone the bother and get rid of them. Especially when vending machines dont take them.

Ugh, I hate pennies. I might start throwing them out in disgust.

[Urban Ranger]

I agree. The pennies are totally useless. Replace the quarter with a half-dollar, and add $1 and $3 dollar coins.

[Achernar]

Dollar coins vs. dollar bills is largely a matter of opinion, I suppose, even though I think that many of the dollar bill proponents really haven't thought the matter through. That pennies are useless, however, is an economic fact. Cecil Adams (four years ago) on the matter: Does it make sense to keep minting pennies?

[Lok]

Originally posted by Kat
Dollar bills won't be discontinued because people don't use the Sackies.

You have this part backwards. People don't use the coins because they still have the bills available. Stop printing bills and they will quickly start using the dollar coins.

People don't use Sackies because they never get them as change (I've seen a Sackie twice--and only ever gotten one as change once, the other one I saw belonged to a friend of mine). People don't use Sackies because they can't be used in vending machines. I have yet to see a vending machine I could use a Sackie in, so I still have to save up quarters to do laundry (although the candy and pop machines will take dollar bills, at least). *sighs*

I don't usually get them as change, but I do spend them. As for the vending machines, all of them here in the middle of no where that I use do take them. And at least one of the change machines at work gives out 4 sackies and 4 quarters for a $5.

[DougC]

- - - Where I am (30 mins outside of a big central US city) the only vending machines I have ever seen that accepted and/or gave dollar coins are the stamp vending machines at the post office. They accept and give as change SusanB's, I dunno what they do with Sackies--though they are about the same size.
~

[Achernar]

Originally posted by DougC
They accept and give as change SusanB's, I dunno what they do with Sackies--though they are about the same size.

"About the same size"??? Sackies are absolutely identical in size and weight to Suzies. They also have been carefully engineered to possess the same dielectric constant, despite being made of a very different alloy. The net result is that a machine cannot distinguish them from the older dollar coins. [Cite] One person has told me of a machine that will accept Suzies but not Sackies; however, I have yet to see it myself, and the information from the US Mint would seem to deny that such a machine exists.

[lurkernomore]

Originally posted by Lok
As for the vending machines, all of them here in the middle of no where that I use do take them. And at least one of the change machines at work gives out 4 sackies and 4 quarters for a $5.

<skeptic>
Yeah, the vending machine people probably own the change machine. They figure if no one wants the Sackie, they'll just spend it in their machines.
</skeptic>

The $1 coin will not have widespread acceptance while there is a $1 bill IMO. Vending machines is just a niche.

[KarlGrenze]

Achernar, I can show you at least two vending machines that accept Suzies but not Sackies...it seems as if the machine won't recognize it. Perhaps something caused the dielectric constant to change, or some other physical property?

[Highway]

Maybe I'm overly strange, but I use every denomination of coin (except the dollar coin cause there aren't any around) regularly. I don't see why folks get so fired up about getting rid of coins, or getting rid of dollar bills. Personally, I like bills better than coins. They are lighter, easier to fold into your wallet, and aggregate better than coins (10 bills can be thinner than 1 coin).

Besides, it looks to me like the public has pretty much spoken on this issue. In a time where both dollar coins and dollar bills were available and in circulation, people overwhelmingly chose bills. Now, some may say that is only because everyone else used bills, but imo, most people knew about them, and most people eschewed their use as anything more than a novelty. So why are people so opposed to dollar bills? To force people to use things they don't want seems a little bit...pushy (I guess).

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

Sometime, though, you have to bite the bullet and recognize that it's time to change. Japan used to print one-yen notes, and Mexico used to print one peso notes, but they don't anymore. Why? Because they recognized it was stupid to print such small denominations. Britain used to print pound notes, and until perhaps 40 years ago a pound was a lot of money, so much so that people reckoned the prices of everyday purchases in shillings. But after inflation took about 90% out of the pound's value, they stopped printing one-pound notes too, for the same reason. It's stupid.

Who else does print small denomination paper? The Phillipines. Afghanistan. China. Are these really good models for a first world currency system? No. It's stupid for us too, and it's time we changed.

[Flymaster]

WHY is it stupid to print a lower denomination bill, though? The only convincing argument is from the Vending industry, and, frankly, I don't think we should get rid of a good system because a special interest group says so. The public WANT bills, and they've clearly said that they don't want coins. There's not a single reason to change.

[Grelby]

Ugh. I HATE one dollar bills. Hate, hate, hate. If we had $1, $5, and $10 coins, I would be very very happy.

Wait a minute, we do have $1 coins, don't we? I keep forgetting... since I don't think I've EVER seen a Sackie. Really. Well, maybe once when I got some from a vending machine, but other than that, nada.

Basically though, I greatly prefer carrying coins to bills except when making larger purposes. It has less to do with my wallet size and pocket linings than the fact that it's so much easier to work with coins. Pull 'em out, count out three of 'em, drop em back into your wallet/pocket. Maybe I'm lazy, but I hate the folding and stuffing a wad of bills back into my wallet. It's annoying in the extreme.

[Achernar]

Originally posted by Achernar
One person has told me of a machine that will accept Suzies but not Sackies; however, I have yet to see it myself, and the information from the US Mint would seem to deny that such a machine exists.

Originally posted by KarlGrenze
Achernar, I can show you at least two vending machines that accept Suzies but not Sackies...it seems as if the machine won't recognize it. Perhaps something caused the dielectric constant to change, or some other physical property?

Okay, change "One person" in my last post to "Two people".

People who support the Sackie, circulate them! If you have a few minutes to spare one day, do this: Go into the bank with $50, and ask for two rolls of them! In my experience (in MA, AL, NJ, and PA) any bank will do. I do this once about every two weeks, and I've been almost $1 bill-free for the past couple of months.

Flymaster, please try this thought experiment. What would it be like if we had 25&cent; bills instead of quarters? Would that be more convenient than the way things are now? Why or why not?

[samclem]

javaman said

Japan used to print one-yen notes, and Mexico used to print one peso notes, but they don't anymore. Why? Because they recognized it was stupid to print such small denominations. Britain used to print pound notes, and until perhaps 40 years ago a pound was a lot of money, so much so that people reckoned the prices of everyday purchases in shillings. But after inflation took about 90% out of the pound's value, they stopped printing one-pound notes too, for the same reason. It's stupid.

You're basically correct. Countries quit printing low denomination notes when the cost of printing exceeds the value of the note. Japan actually quit printing the one yen note around WWII. They quit printing 100 yen notes in 1969. The value of that note at the time was less than $1 US. Mexico quit 1 peso notes in 1970. But the value of the peso at that time was about 8 cents. It's just that you could print a note pretty cheaply back then. Great Britain quit making the 1 pound note for the same reason: it was cheaper to make a coin which lasted longer, not that the value of the pound had plunged to some third world value. It was still significantly more than 1$US.

flymaster said

[quote]WHY is it stupid to print a lower denomination bill, though? The only convincing argument is from the Vending industry.... [quote]
Not really.

If it costs significantly less to make a $1 coin (which has a longer life) than to print a $1 note(which has a short life), and you can save money, then that's what you do. Rather, that's what many countries in the world have done over the last 30 years. But not the US. I can name tens of countries that no longer have a banknote for an amount worth near the US $1. It costs them money to use such a luxury. The US keeps plodding along, actually costing themselves money by introducing the SBA in 1979 and abandoning it in 1981, then introducing the Sacagawea in 2000, and esentially abandoning it in 2002. The US Mint is a very politically dominated institution, as are many US government institutions. Until the political crap gets eliminated, the US will still use a dollar banknote, IMHO.

I have hopes my grandkids will not use a dollar bill. (But I'm practising holding my breath.)

[KarlGrenze]

Achernar, I try to circulate the Sackies I get as much as possible, but it is hard when the vending machines (sometimes my means of getting a meal!) do not accept them. I do use them in other transactions (when they occurr).

[Sublight]

Also, Japan no longer prints 500yen notes, either (if they ever did). The smallest bill available is the 1000yen (about US$8). The coins are available in 1, 5, 10, 50, 100 and 500yen denominations.

And personally, I like it this way.

[Flymaster]

Frankly, yes, I'd rather have 25 cent notes than coins, and have expressed just such an opinion in more than one coin/bill debate. I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but I simply throw out change smaller than quarters. It's not worth the hassle. A 25 cent bill would fit in my wallet and get rid of the problem of carrying any coins at all. I'd be first in line for it.

Second, to the cost issue. The reason a bill is impractical financially is the fact that it has an awfully short lifespan in circulation. However, there are much easier ways to deal with this problem, that are less of a problem for the general public, than by going to a coin. A switch to polymer based bills would last much longer in circulation while still remaining a easy to fold and carry note.

Maybe I'm in the minority by holding this pro bill opinion, but the experience with Sackies and Susan B. Anthony's has shown, to me, anyway, that the public doesn't particularly want a dollar coin. Again, the main proponent of the coin is the industry that stands to benefit most from making the dollar a throwaway that nobody wants to carry: the vending industry.

[matt_mcl]

I get dollar coins all the time.








What?

[Achernar]

Originally posted by Flymaster
Maybe I'm in the minority by holding this pro bill opinion, but the experience with Sackies and Susan B. Anthony's has shown, to me, anyway, that the public doesn't particularly want a dollar coin.

While this is true, I don't think the hoi polloi have a very good reason for wanting it that way. I think they're just scared of change. (Ba dum-ching!) It sounds like you honestly think that bills are less of a hassle than coins, so I can accept your position. However, I do not agree with it at all. The way I see it, if we had $5 coins, I wouldn't have to carry any money in my wallet at all. That would be a hassle-free situation.

[OxyMoron]

I think part of the problem is that it's been so long since we've significantly changed our coinage and - billage? (whatever) - that people really can't wrap their brains around it. We've been issuing pretty much the same denominations of bills since 1913 (The exceptions include the short-lived 2$ bill in 1976, and various bills above $100 that few people ever used anyway), and the same denominations of coins for even longer. Hell, for the "basic four" coins - penny, nickel, dime and quarter - we haven't changed the image on the front since the Roosevelt dime in '46.

So the images on our money are pretty sacrosanct, now. On an intellectual level, people know that a dollar's worth a helluva lot less than it used to be but don't want to admit that fact.

Add to that the simple reality that bills are more convenient than coins, and you have a recipe for recalcitrance.

[chique]

I wish someone smarter than I am would beat these dollar-coin-hating-types about the head with cites.

Something along the lines of "A dollar bill costs X to make and lasts 18 months. On the other hand, a dollar coin costs X to make and lasts Y years. This means that your tax dollars are spending 5 dollars per dollar bill, but 25 cents per dollar coin".

Or something like that.

Really, people, the Amecican economy will not fall apart and collapse just because paper bills go the way of the dinosaur. Promise!

[Lok]

Originally posted by lurkernomore
<skeptic>
Yeah, the vending machine people probably own the change machine. They figure if no one wants the Sackie, they'll just spend it in their machines.
</skeptic>

The $1 coin will not have widespread acceptance while there is a $1 bill IMO. Vending machines is just a niche.

Gee, I think if you read the first part of my message you quoted, you will see I said exactly that. The vending machine comments were just giving a counter example to Kat who had said she never saw a machine that would take a dollar coin.

But I would not say the vending machine industry is that small of a niche. They are the ones responsible for the fact that the sackies have the same physical characteristics as the Susan B. Not to mention the $100s of millions of dollars they put into the economy annually.

Lok

[samclem]

We've been issuing pretty much the same denominations of bills since 1913 (The exceptions include the short-lived 2$ bill in 1976, and various bills above $100 that few people ever used anyway),

We still print $2 notes. Most people in the US don't use them. But we still make them.

And we have had the same denominations of bills between $1 and $100 since 1861.

[Achernar]

I have to agree with OxyMoron, though, that when it comes to what forms their money takes, Americans (ie, people from the USA) don't look at the issue from a completely economic/pragmatic standpoint.

For instance, when the $5-$100 US bills were redesigned to make them easier for the handicapped to use and more difficult for the underhanded to counterfiet, the reaction I heard more than any other was "I don't like the way it looks."

As I've said before, the point of money is not to look good in your wallet. The point of money is to serve as a viable and useful medium for economic exchange (or something like that; I'm not an economist, for cripe's sake).

[Tars Tarkas]

Something along the lines of "A dollar bill costs X to make and lasts 18 months. On the other hand, a dollar coin costs X to make and lasts Y years. This means that your tax dollars are spending 5 dollars per dollar bill, but 25 cents per dollar coin".

Yes, but i don't really care about saving money for printing. I want folding bills. The last thing i need is $50 in coins weighing me down as i run to the bus.

[Flymaster]

Exactly, Tars. I've been to Europe. I've carried 3 Mark coins (or whatever they were). They might even have been 5 Marks. Either way, I paid for most of my purchases with coins. And it was a GIANT hassle. I had money (real, valuable money) spilling out of my pockets when I sat down in cars. I had a quarter pound of metal in my pocket at all times, just to have small denominations for subway tickets and the like. It was impractical to carry change.

The fact is, I, for one, do NOT want to be carrying metal, regardless of the cost to the government to print it. And when there are other options, such as the polymer bills in use in Austrailia (and other places), there's no reason to go to coins except to satisfy the vending lobby. And I don't want to inconvenience myself just so that the owners of a coke machine down the street have to spend $200 less on a dollar bill reader.

[Achernar]

Quoth Flymaster:

there's no reason to go to coins except to satisfy the vending lobby.

Flymaster, would you please quit thinking that the only people who want high-denomination coins are the "vending lobby". (Though I don't know much about politics, I have trouble seriously believing that vending machine lobbyists are powerful enough to single-handedly precipitate an economic overhaul of this magnitude.) There are plenty of people in this thread who want it too.

Seriously, I don't see how you can say that bills are more convenient than coins. If I have $3.15 to give to a human clerk, then I would rather pay with five coins than with three bills and two coins. The latter takes two hands for me, and two hands for the clerk. I can hold five coins between my thumb and forefinger. If I give them bills first and put the coins on top, they slide off onto the counter. Relative to the ease of the coins, it's a mess.

[Flymaster]

Achernar, I've provided cites in previous threads on this subject that you're welcome to search for, but the fact is that the "vending lobby" really IS the main force behind the dollar coin. They always have been the #1 proponent, and they still are. They want it because it would make their lives easier, not ours.

As for your "convenience" arguemnt, may I assume that you are a woman, and therefore carry a purse? For those of us with only a wallet, the convenience of coins at the checkout counter is VASTLY outweighed by the inconvenience of having to carry a largeish amount of loose change in our pockets. If one is wearing reasonably loose jeans, it's nearly impossible to sit down in a car without spilling all of your change out of your pockets.

Similarly, you can't tuck $3 into your sock when you go out on a run if it's in change form, and that $3 may come in handy when you're thirsty 5 miles from home. Valuable change requires a significant increase in weight for most people's pockets, and requires either a change purse or a regular pocketbook. Without one or the other of these things, it simply spills out, and doubly fast if one has a hole in their pocket. Bills don't have these problems, and the problems they DO have can be easily solved with plastic currency.

[Achernar]

Alright, I'll look for the information on the vending lobby. But the dollar coin still does make my life easier.

I'm not a woman. Nor do I carry a purse. My back-left pocket holds my change. On a typical day I might have five pennies, three nickels, a dime, two quarters, six Sackies, and seven subway tokens. In one pocket. The only time they spill out is when I lay down; maybe it's because I sit up straight, or maybe it's because I don't use a car. The net weight is 4.8 ounces, of which the dollar coins compose 1.7 oz. My back is hardly breaking from my coins weighing me down.

As for tucking $3 in your sock, this may be a dumb question, but why can't you just use a $5 bill instead?

[Flymaster]

Because, if I were to bring a $5 bill, I'd get change And then I'd be stuck carrying that back.

And I'd say the fact that you don't use a car is huge. The angle that most front seats of cars put your legs into (if you're reasonably tall, anyway) means that any change in your front pockets is almost guaranteed to spill out, if you're not wearing particularly tight pants.

[Flymaster]

Some cites, that I haven't really read over all that much:

http://www.tinytalksvending.com/News/tinycoin.htm
http://www.replaymag.com/rchil300.htm
http://www.valleynewsonline.com/News...oints/092.html
http://www.ardmoreite.com/stories/060798/mon_mint.html

There's plenty more such cites out there, but just search for "vending" on any of those pages and you'll see who REALLY wants the dollar coin.