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#1
11-21-2002, 07:45 AM
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What, no West Wing Thread
for the third week in a row? What is going on here? I mean, Buffy has been good and all, but not to the neglect of the West Wing.
C'mon, we have Rob Lowe's departure around the corner, the Prez winning the primary (ok, not a surprise, really), and all kinds of political posturing going on. Thoughts? Comments? Anything at all? Best line of the night I thought was Donna's line to Josh about term limits. The look on Josh's face as he tried to come up with a witty come back was great. 
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#5
11-21-2002, 08:12 AM
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 Yeah, I guess I knew that, what with the debate and all a few weeks ago.
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#6
11-21-2002, 08:13 AM
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I found last night's ep frustrating - thought the overly rapid and mumbled dialogue was worse than usual.
Played back Toby's Secretary's remark about her job not being Senate confirmable, and never could get it. Didn't bother to try to follow the check bouncing story that came flying out of nowhere. Didn't quite follow the final interchange between Prez and Leo, where Leo sort of called the pres to task for politicking. I thought this one had a little too much thrown together. Probably a lot of elements that will be important in future story lines.
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#7
11-21-2002, 08:18 AM
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And Jane, the whole ball of wax is not to be confused with the big ball of cheese. Which I can't wait for this season.
Dinsdale, the Senate-confirmable comment was because Toby was looking for a non-confirmable position to put the woman into (can't remember her name), because the DNR position became Senate confirmable. Because of her bad rep. with the Senate, there would be no way that she would get it. Toby's secretary made that comment in jest, basically saying "She can have my job."
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#8
11-21-2002, 08:21 AM
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Oh, andfriedo Donna was making her case to get Josh to help her out with some dead beats who had bounced a check and Josh gave her some flip, Josh-like remark and Donna looked at him and said "You are why there are term limits" and Josh started with "You are why there are...nothing, just nothing" It was the only line in the ep where I laughed out loud.
Dinsdale we close caption when we WW. It helps. Even CC misses some stuff, but they get much more that ya get just by listening. And Munch did they do a big block of cheese episode last year? Isn't about Nov/Dec that the cheese episode is?
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#9
11-21-2002, 08:48 AM
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Munch thanks. I got the gist of it, anwhich was confirmed later when Leo used the same joke. But it bothered me that I rewound the damn tape 3 times and still couldn't make out her exact words.
Jane - generally I don't miss too much - if anything. That is why I noticed last night's ep as especially lacking in that category. The fast talk is distinct from the mumble. Usually I can follow the fast talk by listening closely, but when it comes out of nowhere like that business with the checks? Anyone else think poor casting for the minority leader? I kept waiting for him to start talking to a Bobcat Goldthwaite-voiced bunny. Or for Nikki Cox to show up. Rowr!
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#10
11-21-2002, 08:59 AM
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Several times on the show people tried to be loyal to people who helped them; Toby to the ex-Senator, Sam to his promise, and Bartlett to Hoines.
Sam is accepting his choice now, but the others are still facing the realities of their promises. Toby is off the hook because the ex-Senator is willing to accept it as what happens in politics, you fight the good fight. Bartlett feels like he owes Hoines because Hoines was a good Bartlett loyalist, sucked it up, and did what was right for the ticket. But Leo and Josh are bringing him back to reality and showing that being loyal to people will screw you up in politics, and there will be hell to pay for calling all those caucus leaders. Either he'll piss of the Minority Leader or Hoines, neither of which is gonna be good for the President. Kind of echoed in the Dr storyline, you are loyal to the patient in front of you, everything else be damned. The bounced check was bizarre, not tied into anything else in the episode. The note from Leo's sec'ty was great, especially how the president and him must keep a running joke of her dry notes. And I hope Will Bailey ends up as his campaign manager.
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#11
11-21-2002, 09:05 AM
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What dd the note say, again? I also miss details on that show. Plus I was flipping over occasionally to the Victoria Secrets infomercial.
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#14
11-21-2002, 09:54 AM
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I hadn't even thought of Will Bailey and his gal Friday moving to the West Wing. You're right, that's exactly what it feels like!
The note was something like "They're rioting in the streets in Tehran" but even dryer. Just one line, very droll. Bartlett called the caucus leaders in NH and Iowa to thank them and while not saying it outright, asked them to stay committed to Hoines for his run for Pres in 2006. This is going to cause all sorts of problems in Congress because lots of other Dems want to run for Pres in 2006 and they will have a much harder time if the Dem machine is locked up behind Hoines. Bartlett did it out of loyalty to his VP who hid his ambitions because it wasn't his time. Now the Prez feels obligated to support him, even though it might cost him legislatively. Josh and Leo think the Pres screwed up, he let loyalty take precedence over practicality. Same as with Toby and the ex-Senator.
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#15
11-21-2002, 10:23 AM
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After the past two episodes of breakneck plot developments, this week's ep felt like it was just stalled out completely. I mean... nothing happened. Not really. No real plot development, no character advancement, and not too much of general interest going on. I'm betting next week's will have a lot more happening.
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#17
11-21-2002, 10:33 AM
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Telemark, I think Oblong is right. Josh thought that Hoynes had made the calls, and that's why he approached him. It was too bad, because it seemed that Josh did it out of good faith, and not as the president's whipping boy (which is how Hoynes viewed it). The odd thing is that Hoynes didn't deny making the calls when it was actually Bartlet.
Looks like iMDB.com has it spelled "Hoynes".
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#18
11-21-2002, 11:06 AM
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I thought what I watched was fairly substandard...before I fell asleep.
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#19
11-21-2002, 11:10 AM
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I totally missed that. But I hope so. I love Josh Malina.I'm going to miss Sam - I thought he wasn't leaving until February sweeps, not this early.
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#21
11-21-2002, 11:35 AM
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His name is Josiah, but people call him Jed. Hence the source of the confusion.
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#24
11-21-2002, 12:52 PM
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Yes, Josh thought that Hoynes had made the calls, no one would suspect that Bartlett would do something like that. I never thought that was in doubt. Josh was trying to solve the Minority Leader problem and it lead to Hoynes. Who else would have made the calls? As it turns out, someone else did.
But when Hoynes said he was rafting instead of in Hawaii, ie out of phone contact, Josh quickly figured out that he didn't make the calls. And his quick political mind figured out that the only other person who could have locked up the caucus leaders was Bartlett. Leo was the only one who could confront the Prez with that so he went to Leo.
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#25
11-21-2002, 12:56 PM
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Another point about loyalty. Sam was planning on running his campaign as a Bartlett loyalist, even though he didn't endorse all of those policies himself. He was doing it out of loyalty to Bartlett, who is a mentor and a father figure. The Prez told him to be loyal to his own ideals, be true to himself if he really wants to make a difference.
Which is why Will Bailey will be such a good replacement for Sam. He'll have to learn how to supress his ideals and play with a team if he wants to accomplish things.
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#26
11-21-2002, 01:06 PM
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This was the first episode of the series that Aaron Sorkin didn't write, which explains why it was kind of dull and everyone seemed slightly out of character. According to Sorkin, it's also gonna be the last episode written by someone else, at least until he leaves the show entirely. Which I think is a Good Thing.
So it looks like Will Bailey's going to be the new Sam. I am completely opposed to this, and the thing is I have no idea why. I like the character and I love Josh Malina and I'd certainly like to keep him around in some capacity, but the idea of him as a member of the core senior staff just feels absolutely wrong somehow. I'm kind of surprised, too, that they wouldn't want to use this as an opportunity to add some diversity to the show (Sorkin's said before that an all-white, overwhelmingly male senior staff is not what he had in mind).
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#27
11-21-2002, 02:00 PM
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I find myself watching WW with the mute on and the closed captioning because of all the mumbling. I'm a New Yorker, the fast talk doesn't throw me, but mumbling does. I had no idea what was up with that bounced check business, and I thought I'd missed something. Q. for the group - the look on Bartlett's face at the end makes me wonder. Do you think he knew his thank you phone calls to the local workers would be taken as an unspoken request for them to work for Hoynes come 2004, or do you think he was genuinely surprised they were taken that way? Dr. R.
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#29
11-21-2002, 03:54 PM
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I was watching (on the exercise bike with a fan running on "high") and I was going crazy from not making out one line in ten. Glad to know it was the show, not the conditions I was listening in. Normally there are many more hints as to various storylines--I had no clue while the show was developing what all the rafting/Hawaii references meant, and I was swearing to watch it in the future wiht no distractions, with the closed-captioning on, with a pad to take notes handy, etc. Too much like work.
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#30
11-21-2002, 03:57 PM
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#31
11-21-2002, 03:59 PM
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Another "Me Too" for the whole check thing. What the hell was that all about?
Dr. R., I think POTUS knew exactly how those calls would be taken, I was getting that he doesn't know how to not campaign and that was all about the fact that Bartlett's last campaign ever just ended. king of spain Where did you hear that about Sorkin?
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#32
11-21-2002, 04:30 PM
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I think the whole rafting/Hawaii thing was this. Josh thought Hoynes had gone to Hawaii, where he could have been in seclusion and made all those phone calls. It would have been setting up his politcal stategy for 2006 right after the election, not unwise, but it could cause a big problem for Bartlett's attempts to get legislation passed. Witness the Minority Leader being pissed. He was accusing Hoynes of being, if not disloyal, then manipulative.
Hoynes has been very loyal, he bit the bullet on gun control down in Texas and didn't run against Bartlett. He went rafting, where he physically couldn't make the phone calls, not even be tempted to try. He's been exceedingly loyal and now gets called on the carpet by Josh for something that Bartlett did! They don't trust him after all he's done and he's pissed. He's being treated like an afterthought, they only come to him when they think he's been bad. He may be mad at Bartlett for not informing his staff of the phone calls, too. At least that's my interpretation. YMMV. Bartlett knew exactly what those phone calls would do, he's paying off his debt to Hoynes.
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#33
11-21-2002, 05:10 PM
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#35
11-21-2002, 06:01 PM
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king of spain Sorry. I meant the part about Sorkin saying it would be the last episode written by someone else.
Thanks.
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#36
11-21-2002, 06:17 PM
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The whole Bartlett/Hoynes/Josh deal plays off of several previous episodes. Josh was a senior staffer for Hoynes at the beginning of the 98 election, when Hoynes was the frontrunner and was assumed to be a lock for the nomination. But Josh wasn't entirely satisfied with Hoynes--Josh is a liberal and Hoynes is a middle of the road compromising moderate. Josh jumped ship to join the much more liberal Bartlett (who has described himself as "the most liberal president" anyone in congress is likely to see in their careers). The line, "You would have been good at Leo's job," was a jab at that. Hoynes was commenting both that he could have been doing Leo's job (and thus been the second most powerful man in the US), and that he'll likely never have that chance now, 'cause Hoynes ain't gonna be offering him anything else.
Bartlett feels an obligation to Hoynes for a lot of reasons. The primary that Bartlett won against Hoynes wasn't pretty, and Bartlett knew he was too liberal to win in the general election without the moderates that voted for Hoynes. Bartlett offered Hoynes the VP slot, which just isn't done (offering VP to the primary runner up), enticing him with the implication that he'd not run again (because of the MS) and would get behind Hoynes in 2002. With this promise in mind (either implied or explicit, it isn't exactly clear) Hoynes actually started to campaign in 2000, which led to the press sniffing around about why it seemed the VP was seperating himself from the POTUS, and led to the MS story being broken. Bartlett and company convinced Hoynes to step aside--he could have mounted a pretty good challenge--and support Bartlett's second run. Hoynes, being politically savvy, knew that a challenge would be political suicide (he'd split the party) did what was best for him and for the party. He stepped aside because, in the words of this episode, it wasn't his turn. This implies, of course, that his turn will come, and that he'd be getting a return on his investment of time and loyalty. Josh, Leo, and Toby all want Bartlett to use the second term differently than the first. Bartlett, for the first time in his life, doesn't have to be concerned with reelection, so he's fee to take chances and really make a difference--hence the "screw the politics, just do the right thing" stance he took with the boy's heart/lung transplant. On another note: If I understand it correctly, the Orange County race is the only one undecided, and the House is currently tied, and the winner will control the House, so both parties, which usually ignore this district as a foregone conclusion (like Hawaii going Democratic and Alaska Republican), are sending in their big guns, which is why Will Bailey is out. Bailey and Winnie Cooper are definitely going to be moving into the West Wing. Danica McKeller was doing the talk show/entertainment "news" circuit talking about her new role before the season started. I normally try to avoid such shows, because they tend to give away crucial plot lines, but then again this is NBC, which tends to put every major plot point for every major show into their promos anyway, and then run them to death. Anyway, my wife loves these celebrity gab fests, and I can't help but overhear such things while I'm reading here or playing Diablo 2.
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#37
11-21-2002, 07:39 PM
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Also, I think it's supposed to be a kind of springboard for the party - if they can win in a Republican stronghold it'll do excellent things as far as getting the party faithful back in line, generating more money for more fights down the road, a very good pushoff position (even if they lose, they won't look horrendously bad, who expects a Democrat to win in Orange County?)
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#38
11-21-2002, 11:28 PM
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What was it Sam was saying a couple of weeks ago, when it first became apparent that there was a possibility of the Democratic candidate winning and Sam had to decide if he really ought to put his name in? Something about running and losing would mean he would never again have a chance to run for public office on his own? What does that mean?
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#40
11-22-2002, 11:00 AM
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None one expects the Democrats to win this seat, Orange Country is the most Rebuplican country in CA. The Dems are in a no lose situation, no one has any expectations. No one expected the dead guy to win, and now that there's attention here, no one expects Sam to win.
As a future candidate, Sam is worried that his first campaign will be a loss. Even though there are very low expectations, it could taint his record. No one will nominate him again, or so is his concern. It seems pretty remote to me, after all no one expects him to win here so why would this taint his career as a politician?
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#41
11-23-2002, 12:13 AM
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__________________
Lok ---------------- "I am madly in love with Lok and wish to have his beautiful children. I also wish to leave my entire (quite subsantial) estate to him when I die, which might now be quite suddenly." - auRa
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#42
11-23-2002, 12:40 PM
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Folks, you've got to read the older threads.
 We've been speculating about Joshua* replacing Rob from the first episode he was on. I didn't think this was a bad episode - the Prez had some good lines - and it was obviously meant to start new plot lines for the future. But it did feel kinda empty. Christian Slater wasn't in it at all, nor was Joanna Gleason**, nor any of the security and military types. If C.J. had any lines I've already forgotten them. Lily Tomlin needs to get a real character and quick. And I'm really surprised no one mentioned what I thought was the biggest plot hole I've seen in a while. Josh didn't know where the Vice President had vacationed? Excuse me? There's a second in the Vice President's day during which the senior White House staff don't know where he is and how to reach him? (And not one of the 40 people involved put out the word that the Prez himself had persuaded them to go for Hoynes?) Inexcusable. As for Rob, I think Lok has it right, but it should be noted that a Democrat, Linda Sanchez, did win a House seat from Orange County. I believe this seat was new, a result of the increased number of seats California got from the new census, so if this is also true in West Wing-land, there's a chance for Rob. *needed to distinguish Joshua Malina the actor from Josh Lymon the character. ** who the IMDB hasn't credited with any West Wing appeances since 1999! What gives?
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#43
11-23-2002, 12:56 PM
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