Stunning Ignorance...or is it something worse?

[Monty]

Orbytal posted in Straight Dope Message Board - Remarrying and then going to heaven...:

For Monty & c_carol: Tactless? maybe... but I did get my point across. I am on the same quest as everyone on the SDMB --- the quest for the truth. I am just trying to keep people from being misled.

There's no maybe about it--you were utterly without tact when you decided to play Jesus. And what was your point? That you get to play Jesus? I don't think that point even passes the "so silly it's laughable" test.

You also assert that you're trying to keep people from being misled. Interesting concept. And how did you do that? Oh yeah:

That is one of the many reasons that LDS is not a "Christian Denomination."

Last I checked, I was presented with two facts:

1. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is, in fact, a Christian denomination.
2. You're not the arbiter of which denominations are or are not Christian denominations.

One may pick and choose the teachings of the Bible one wants to believe, but that doesn't mean one is right.

And one may be a flaming bigot who has exactly zero real interest in facts (that would be you, Orbytal), but that doesn't mean your prejudices are correct.

& in the same thread, I think I've discovered exactly what your bias is:

Considering Jesus started the Catholic Church, I can hardly see how Catholics could be "un-Christian"... but as far as the Protestants go (i feel a barrage coming ), yes I would say they aren't christian as well. If anyone truly delved into the Bible and desired to live as close to Jesus as possible, he/she would eventually find him/herself in the Catholic Church

Well, it's arguable that the Roman Catholic Church actually is the one Jesus founded. That's a debate that has nothing to do with whether they're a Christian denomination--it only has to do if it's actually the specific church founded by Jesus. Apparently you're unable to see the distinction between those issues.

And you single-handedly decided the Protestants aren't Christian either?!?! Show us why those of us who aren't Roman Catholics but who actually have "truly delved into the Bible and desired to live as close to Jesus as possible" are not in the Roman Catholic church. Come on: scriptural cites, both pro & con. Or just do the right thing and admit that you have no case but made your comments based on nothing other than your own prejudices.

Another thing: your tagline of

"Do you want to be a part of the disease, or part of the cure?"

is nothing short of insulting since your comments in the linked thread show that you certainly are not part of the cure here.

[Miller]

Y'know, it's funny: we get all sorts of Protestants in here saying that Catholics aren't really Christian, but you don't often see the reverse. Which is odd, because if anybody has got any basis for that sort of claim, it'd be the folks that have been around for a couple millenia.

Well, as a non-Christian, I don't really have a dog in that fight. But his response to Polly, who mentioned that she's lost one loved one already and is expecting to lose another shortly, is particularly telling:

Originally posted by Orbytal
For Polly: "looking forward to seeing loved ones again after death"? forgive me if this sounds like an attack, its not (i may just not understand)... Seeing others in heaven would be much lower on my hopes list than thanking God for his GRACE of Salvation... anticipating others waiting on your arrival and having a reunion sounds pretty selfish...

Seems pretty clear who isn't a "real Christian" 'round here.

[iampunha]

Oh goody, another one of those "No, I don't have to learn anymore ... all I ever needed to know I got from www.donateyourbraintoscience.com" types.

Best advice I can give you, Orbytal: lurk for a while before you start posting. Especially, *especially* if you're going to be mainly in GD and GQ. Hell, I started out (and largely stay) in MPSIMS and the Pit and I lurked for several months before I joined.

Monty, evidently you have a far greater threshhold for headache-inducing activities than I do. Half the reason I largely stay out of GD is the drive-by-witnesser every week we seem to get here.

And then there are the ones who stay and keep "witnessing" where A) it doesn't belong and B) it does the opposite of what was intended.

[Lilairen]

Given that I rather strongly suspect that that Jesus guy was more interested in reforming Judaism than establishing a new set of practices, I'm somewhat dubious of any claims based on the idea that he founded the Catholic church in particular in any case.

I'm also cynically amused by someone making a big deal about which books of the Bible one reads who isn't even recommending a directly Greek-derived text (or a Greek/English one, like the Nestle-Aland) for "proper" reading -- but rather a translation from the Latin Vulgate. I suppose that's what one gets from these upstart traditions.

[RexDart]

Wow, Orbytal is like the first holy warrior type we've had around here who's Catholic. Can't quite match the half-dozen or so fundie evangelical Protestant hardliners, but it's nice to see diversity on the SDMB

And you're right, Miller, it is sort of odd. The Catholics on this board, whose church has a legitimate claim for "apostolic succession", are never the ones making the claims of being the "one true church." That role is left to the people whose relgions are descended either from a murderous king or a man with serious mental issues, neither one older than 500 years.

As most of my information leads me to believe that Catholics are generally progressive and tolerant these days, I'll assume Orbytal is an anomaly.

[iampunha]

Originally posted by RexDart
Wow, Orbytal is like the first holy warrior type we've had around here who's Catholic.

Oh, not hardly. When I first joined I did a bit of witnessing in GD, complete with lack of cites and that "I'm always going to be right when I talk about religion" attitude that permates so many of the unfortunate who to GD thinking it's just going to be a walk in the park and everyone will up and convert as soon as they read That one Post.

There've been others, too, IIRC. I can't toss out any names because it's been a while since I went to GD, but we get proselytizers of all flavors here. Some of them stick around, realize we aren't cannon fodder, and lose their one-trick-ponyness. Others either leave or keep on witnessing, many times where they just don't belong.

[happyheathen]

The RCC no longer claims to be the "One True Church"? Better break that one to JP2 REAL gently.

IIRC, the big change in the last 50 years was that the RCC stopped calling other Christians "Heretics" and "Schismists" - and now contents itself to point out that the RCC IS the "Only True Christian Church".

(and, if JP2 gets his druthers, the next pope will go back to claiming that the RCC is the "Only Christian Church", and again denounce the heretics and schismists (maybe they'll re-constitute the Jesuits and/or Dominicans as warriors against Protestantism))

[Shodan]

Actually, J2P2 rescinded the bann of excommunication against Martin Luther.

I was in (Lutheran) seminary at the time. We had a party to celebrate, where one of my favorite professors, dressed as ML, who waited outside the door as one of us read the proclamation. Then we ceremoniously welcomed ML in the Heavenly Vision, and the party started.

I got to play one of the saints in the choir of welcome. Saint Sebastian, with a Steve Martin arrow thru my head.

Regards,
Shodan

[carrot]

Originally posted by Shodan
Saint Sebastian, with a Steve Martin arrow thru my head.

I'm laughing just at that image.

[JeffB]

Originally posted by Shodan
Actually, J2P2 rescinded the bann of excommunication against Martin Luther.

Is this the new robot pope they've been working on?

[Kat]

The RCC no longer claims to be the "One True Church"? Better break that one to JP2 REAL gently.

Naw, they're not talking about the RCC itself, they're talking about Catholic Dopers not saying that on the boards.

[Freyr]

Orbytal wrote:

For Monty & c_carol: Tactless? maybe... but I did get my point across. I am on the same quest as everyone on the SDMB --- the quest for the truth. I am just trying to keep people from being misled.

To which I say, well, thanks a lot, but if I need your help, I'll ask for it. 'Til then, bugger off!!

[iampunha]

Not that I'm trying to be a Catholic Apologist (gave up *that* one a while ago), but would someone like to show evidence of a sufficiently large religion that believes in Heaven/an afterlife and does *not* consider itself the only way into heaven? I don't doubt that such exists, I just don't know how to go about finding one.

[Lsura]

Originally posted by RexDart
Wow, Orbytal is like the first holy warrior type we've had around here who's Catholic. Can't quite match the half-dozen or so fundie evangelical Protestant hardliners, but it's nice to see diversity on the SDMB

Ya know, I just went and checked out the thread that Monty linked to without reading this whole thread and my first thought was: Damn! A rabid Catholic.

Now, I'm Catholic (a re-vert who came back to Catholicism via a church that taught that Catholicism was evil. Yeah, it's an interesting POV, but that's about all that I use it as), but I would never think of claiming that LDS or Protestants aren't Christian. I may not fully understand the beliefs held by LDS or by all Protestant denominations, but it's still not my place to judge what I don't understand.

So here's my comment to Orbytal. Settle the fuck down. No one here is a big fan of anyone - Catholic, Protestant, Hindy, Muslim, whatever - telling people that their way is the "only" right way. Discuss, debate - practice your apologetics. Those things are good for you. The other stuff...it'll only cause you grief.

[Lsura]

That'd be Hindu, not Hindy. Thanks.

[Ferret Herder]

Originally posted by iampunha
Not that I'm trying to be a Catholic Apologist (gave up *that* one a while ago), but would someone like to show evidence of a sufficiently large religion that believes in Heaven/an afterlife and does *not* consider itself the only way into heaven? I don't doubt that such exists, I just don't know how to go about finding one.

I would say Unitarian Universalism, but I don't know if it necessarily states that there is an afterlife or not.

[OpalCat]

Originally posted by JeffB
Is this the new robot pope they've been working on?

It's RoboPope 2000!

[Junior Spaceman]

Not that I'm trying to be a Catholic Apologist (gave up *that* one a while ago), but would someone like to show evidence of a sufficiently large religion that believes in Heaven/an afterlife and does *not* consider itself the only way into heaven? I don't doubt that such exists, I just don't know how to go about finding one.

Judaism. I don't have any cites at the moment, but I've been told by several (orthodox) Rabbis that anybody who follows the seven laws given to all the nations (which expand to about 65 laws or so overall) has a place in the world to come, ie gets to go to heaven.

[clairobscur]

Originally posted by iampunha
Not that I'm trying to be a Catholic Apologist (gave up *that* one a while ago), but would someone like to show evidence of a sufficiently large religion that believes in Heaven/an afterlife and does *not* consider itself the only way into heaven? I don't doubt that such exists, I just don't know how to go about finding one.

I think Islam would qualify...

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Originally posted by Ferret Herder
I would say Unitarian Universalism, but I don't know if it necessarily states that there is an afterlife or not.

Well, Universalism was in origin a protestant denomination which believed in eventual salvation of all people. They felt that God was too good to condemn anyone to hell forever.

Modern UU's are free to believe whatever they want, and many still do believe in a hereafter and universal salvation.

QtM, UU

[Kyla]

clairobscur, I want to say that you are wrong, but without any cites, I will leave that alone. I am sure someone more knowledgeable will have something to say on that.

HenrySpencer is correct. Judaism does not require that everyone be a Jew to go to heaven. Judaism has, at best, a very fuzzy idea of what happens after death, anyway, so the whole idea of needing to believe in the Jewish faith to "go to heaven" might be moot anyway. Judaism is a tribal faith. If you're a Jew, you should follow the rules. If you're not a Jew, no one should care whether you follow the rules or not. In fact, a non-Jew keeping Shabbat or kosher would be looked at as kind of...well, weird, from a Jewish POV.

[Zoe]

would someone like to show evidence of a sufficiently large religion that believes in Heaven/an afterlife and does *not* consider itself the only way into heaven?

That is one of the things that I like about Unity Church. It is Christian, but very open.

http://www.unity.org Click on "About Us" and then click on "More About Unity." The question section is particularly interesting.

I don't know if this is "sufficiently large" -- but it is widespread.

[c_carol]

Hey, wow, this is the first time I've seen my name in a Pit thread.

That's all. Carry on.

[0rbytal]

Originally posted by Monty

Last I checked, I was presented with two facts:

1. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is, in fact, a Christian denomination.
2. You're not the arbiter of which denominations are or are not Christian denominations.

Lets look at a few principles that Christians believe:
1. Christians are monotheistic ( believe in ONE God )
——•Joseph Smith said "The head of the gods appointed one god for us." —June 1844, Millenial Star, p.108
——•Brigham Young, successor to Smith, said "How many gods there are I do not know, but there never was a time when there was no gods and worlds." —Journal of Discourses, vol.7, p.33
——•In "Pearl of Great Price" we are told 49 times that the "gods" did this and that.
——•"As man is now, God once was; As God is now, man may become." —Snow, 5th Prophet of the Mormon Church (Ensign 2-82)

The Bible Says:
——•In Exodus 8:10 Moses said, "Be it as you say, that you may know that there is no one like the LORD our God.
——•In Isaiah 44:8 "And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any."
——•In Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God"
——•In 1 Corinthians 8:4 "and that 'there is no God but one'."

2. Mormonism teach that to obtain salvation you must believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet:
——•Brigham Young declared: "Every spirit that confesses that Joseph Smith is a prophet and that he lived and died a prophet, and that the Book of Mormon is true, is of God and every spirit that does not is of anti-Christ" —Millenial Story vol. 5, p.118
——•"No salvation without accepting Joseph Smith" —Doctrines os Salvation 1:189
——•Early Mormon leader Heber Kimball said of Joseph Smith: "He has passed behind the veil, but there never will be a person in this dispensation enter into the celestial glory without his approbation." —Journal of Discourses 4:119

While the Bible says faith and good works are needed for salvation:
——•"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world." —1 John 4:1 (pointing finger at Joseph Smith)
——•"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" —Ephesians 2:8
——•" What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. —James 2:14-17
——•"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. " —James 2:24
——•Even Jesus talked about the importance of works in Matthew 7:16-20 ending "you will know them by their fruits."

3. Mormons claim that Joseph Smith was visited by God the Father and Jesus Christ near his home in New York in 1820. Joseph Smith relates that he is told that the world has been living in a total apostasy from the gospel, and that he would restore the Church of Jesus Christ.
The Bible says :
——•"...which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1 Timothy 3:15
And what church is this? Maybe this one:
——•Jesus said "And I tell you, you are Peter [in Greek petra=rock], and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. " Matthew 16:18
——•"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit'." —John 20:22
——•"When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come." —John 16:13
Where was this "total apostacy"?

Monty said:
And you single-handedly decided the Protestants aren't Christian either?!?!

No... Jesus said "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. " —Mark 3:24,25
I know your going to say that it's out of context but can certainly be applied to Protestant denominations and Eastern Orthodox enthnic divisions. Orthodox congregations include Greek, Russian, Polish, Yugoslavian, Serbian, and Syrian, among others.

[Liberal]

Orbytal wrote:

Christians are monotheistic ( believe in ONE God )

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' [Psalm 82:6]? If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came — and the Scripture cannot be broken — what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?" — (John 10:34-36)

While the Bible says faith and good works are needed for salvation.

"God loved the world so much that he sent his only Son so that whoever believes in him will never die, but will have eternal life." — (John 3:16)

Mormons claim that Joseph Smith was visited by God the Father and Jesus Christ near his home in New York in 1820.

"Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." — (John 21:25)

I know your going to say that it's out of context but can certainly be applied to Protestant denominations and Eastern Orthodox enthnic divisions. Orthodox congregations include Greek, Russian, Polish, Yugoslavian, Serbian, and Syrian, among others.

"All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." — (Matthew 25:32)

[iampunha]

That's a brilliant job refuting #2 on Monty's list, there, orbytal.

















Or rather, a handy job of ignoring it. I don't see *anything* in your "points" re: Monty's correct assertation that you do not decide who is and is not a Christian that refutes that. So you've basically wasted five minutes quoting a whole bunch of nothing. Here's a shocker for you: go look at the various things you have to believe/rules you must follow to be accepted by various flavors of Christianity and see which of them require different beliefs, both dogmatic and historical. You might be surprised.

[Monty]

Got any proof we worship more than one god, Orb?

[Monty]

Forgot to do something.

Lib: Thanks for the admirable job of refuting Orb's laughable "refutation" of my point #1.

[0rbytal]

Libertarian wrote:

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' [Psalm 82:6]?...
(John 10:34)

If you look at Psalm 82:6 you will see it is "An exhortation to judges and men in power."—Douay-Rheims Version
Notice how 'gods' is not capitalized and 'God' is, showing the difference between a deity and one who "oversees" men.

"God loved the world so much that he sent his only Son so that whoever believes in him will never die, but will have eternal life." — (John 3:16)

A common passage used to attempt to validate that one needs ONLY to believe in Jesus for salvation. Au contraire, it does NOT say "that whoever only believes in him will never die" - which would indicate that while it is necessary to believe that Jesus is the Messiah for salvation, but that is not all.

"Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." — (John 21:25)

notice the word "did" and not "will do". This shows that the apostles tried to document as much as they could but there was so much that jesus did to prove He is the Son of God, that they could not document it all. It does not validate Joseph Smith's "vision".

"All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." — (Matthew 25:32)

This passage is talking about separating those who did good works in their life from those who did not. If you review the verse directly preceeding 32 it says "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne:" —meaning after his death and resurrection He will separate those who, as the verses following your quote state

"for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' 40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

did and did not do good works.

[0rbytal]

Monty said:

Got any proof we worship more than one god, Orb?

I never said you worship more than one God. I said you believe there is more than one God, and that the Bible states in many places that there is only one God.

[tomndebb]

Orbytal said

No... Jesus said "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. " —Mark 3:24,25
I know your going to say that it's out of context but can certainly be applied to Protestant denominations and Eastern Orthodox enthnic divisions. Orthodox congregations include Greek, Russian, Polish, Yugoslavian, Serbian, and Syrian, among others.

As a Catholic, I fail to see your point regarding who gets to call others Christian. Even if you want to claim (in direct opposition to the Catechism of the Catholic Church) that Protestants are somehow not Christians, your "house divided" works equally well from the position of the Orthodox looking at Catholicism.

[Polycarp]

Eastern Orthodox ethnic divisions

As opposed to the Roman Catholic Church's Byzantine, Melchite, Malekite, Ukrainian, etc. Rites?

[Zoe]

At the moment, the Roman Catholic Church is divided on some issues. But both the Church of the Latter Day Saints and the Roman Catholic Church and Protestant Churches are Christ-centered.

Is anyone here old enough to remember Pope John and the Ecumenical Counsel?

My grandchildren are Catholic. I am a Protestant. Yet I was asked to make the sign of the cross on their foreheads at their baptisms. That priest seemed to recognize that I am a Christian.

[Monty]

You're basing your argument on capitalization? That's hilar...er, interesting. Hebrew does not have capital letters. Now how are you going to modify your "argument?"

[Mangetout]

Originally posted by Monty
That's hilar...er, interesting.

No, you were right the first time.

If the Douay-Rheims version was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for you too.

[RexDart]

A Pitting morphs into a religious debate complete with citations to Bible passages...and His4Ever isn't involved? Certainly this must be a sign of the coming apocalypse, I must meditate on this....now where did I leave those danged magical seeing stones?

Seriously though, what is supposed to happen when a Pit thread directed against an individual (which by definition could not appear in GD) turns into a religious discussion (which by rule must be in GD)? Does the universe and time itself collapse under the weight of this horrifying convergence of rules? Will cats and dogs dance merrily in the streets together, will gobear and JerseyDiamond share a loving embrace on the streets of San Francisco, will december declare allegiance to the Palestinian Liberation Army?

[Miller]

Will Miller add something substantive to the debate instead of posting another a smart-alecky one liner?



Apparently, not.

[Liberal]

Orbytal wrote:

If you look at Psalm 82:6 you will see it is "An exhortation to judges and men in power."—Douay-Rheims Version
Notice how 'gods' is not capitalized and 'God' is, showing the difference between a deity and one who "oversees" men.

Your interpretation of the Psalm seems much different from that of Jesus. He actually used the Psalm to corroborate His own divinity.

When you have studied grammar (one of the tools used by those who translate the scriptures you read), you will learn that capitalized references to God are proper names. Names like God, Lord, Jehovah, etc. Orbytal, for example, is a proper name. When not capitalized, it merely references nonspecific deities.

A common passage used to attempt to validate that one needs ONLY to believe in Jesus for salvation. Au contraire, it does NOT say "that whoever only believes in him will never die" - which would indicate that while it is necessary to believe that Jesus is the Messiah for salvation, but that is not all.

And so you place burdens upon the backs of men that you yourself are not willing to bear?

You do not write the way you say the verse is written. You did not say, for example, that it is necessary to believe that ONLY Jesus is the Messiah. Should we assume that you think, say, Al Sharpton might also be the Messiah?

[Notice] the word "did" and not "will do".

Notice that Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am". If you believe that He is bound by temporalily, you are mistaken. For Him, the universe is simultaneously not yet begun, ongoing, and finished. He is eternal.

This passage is talking about separating those who did good works in their life from those who did not.

Let me assist you in coming back to the point, namely that your bigotry regarding nations is specious, arbitrary, and frankly evil.

[Monty]

Libertarian: I noticed that ol' Orb didn't bother to mention the words that both Latin & English had to add into their translations of the Hebrew & Greek scriptures to make sense in Latin & English, what with those two languages being, well, being NOT Hebrew & Greek.

You apparently also left out "and other faith groups" after "nations."

[Cervaise]

Hey 0rbytal, what's with all the little sperms in your list up there?