I’d thought about putting this in IMHO, but this may be a better place.
Last week my friend the fundie invited us over for lunch.
Somehow, atheism came up.
She claimed there were no good (moral?) atheists.
I mentioned Mother Theresa (to be perverse).
She said “She was a christian!”
Then I mentioned Ghandi.
I forgot what her reply was, but I am hoping some dopers will give me famous atheists who have done good for the world so i may enlighten her.
Wasn’t Gandhi a hindu?
Well, Christians that believe in Christ’s exhortation to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned, and care for the sick are probably moved in greater numbers to do such things than atheists, all things being equal.
But people acting in the name of Christ were also responsible for “conversions” at the point of a sword, for torture of those deemed to be heretics, for hatred and intolerance of many kinds over the years. It seems to me a bit disingenuous to claim the credit for the good without also acknowledging the bad that’s come from misguided attempts to be Christian.
I know plenty of atheists, and plenty more non-Christians, who do good works in their day-to-day lives. No one as famous as Mother Teresa comes to mind, to be sure, but it’s clear to me that atheism and charity are by no means mutually exclusive. Mitch Synder, one of the leaders of Community for Creative Non-Violence, was not, as far as I know, religious at all; he added a great deal of effort and publicity to the organization’s goals.
On the other hand, CCNV was founded by, among others, a priest.
I think the lesson to take away is that religion, and specifically Christianity, do not guarantee selflessness, nor does the lack of religion preclude it.
- Rick
I kndof think she meant anyoen who isn’t a Christian is considered an “atheist”.
Well she’s just hideously misinformed, then.
Here’s an exhaustive list of famous non-theists. I haven’t time at the moment to look through it, but I’d warrant that there are a fair few altruistic humanists in it.
cute title, but Stalin and Mao aren’t exactly humanitarians!
Carl Sagan was good, though, I’ll use that.
Try Oskar Schindler, too.
vanilla, I suspect your friend will be able to rationalize her belief despite any list of “good” atheists you can present, but in addition to Carl Sagan you could try Pearl Buck. (And if those don’t work, try William Gaines, founder and publisher of Mad magazine.)
Regarding Gandhi, though; you should know that he was quite religious, and would’ve had some things to say to your friend regarding judgement of others:
Of his own relationship with God, Gandhi had this to say:
That list is dubious. It lists Thomas Paine, for instance. And yet
Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, Chapter 1, The Author’s Profession Of Faith
[…shrug…]
Alan Turing is quite a good example; being homosexual (which I suspect may also disqualify people from being ‘good’ in the eyes of your friend) as well as being an atheist and a great and very good and kind man.
I concede that the list not being very good. Anyone know any others?
There is no atheist beatification for good works. Though I do think (as an atheist) that there’s more incentive for the religious to do (what their church perceives as) ‘good’ things.
Well, if she’s made up her own meaning for the word “atheist” she may have made up her own meaning for the word “good” as well.
Curiously enough, the authors of the list to which jimm linked apear to share the same view as vanilla’s friend as to what atheism (or nontheism) means. You can get on their list by expressing disbelief in Christianity even if the same statement contains evidence of other theist belief.
Ironic, isn’t it?
BTW, when discussing “famous atheists” one must remember that it is possible to change theological beliefs quite radically during the course of living a famous (and quotable) life.
Yep. For that matter, remind her that Jesus wasn’t a Christian.
To be fair to the list, though, it did say “non-theists” instead of “atheists”, and theism usually includes belief in a personal god or gods. Deism, which postulates a god that doesn’t have a relationship with the universe, and acts more like a force of nature, might not count.
You’re right. They probably wouldn’t count me either.
I dunno. Do you believe in a personal G-d who has a relationship with you?
In a way, yes. I believe in a God Who is Love.
Probably has. Alot of Christians adopt the notion that only god is good, that all things good have god as their source. Theoretically, of two seemingly identical actions, one could be good and the other bad depending on whether god was “working through” that person my giving them the requisite intention for good (Christians surely aren’t consequentialists.) If they follow this line of thought, then perhaps they really think no athiest could do good, because the athiest has no relationship to god by virtue of which his acts can be good.
BTW, I don’t understand how Libertarian thinks that anyone could consider him a nontheist under any definition. He has repeatedly stated that he believes in a personal god, and that’s no deist or pantheist sentiment.