Devils running hell

You said that devils running hell was a modern notion, 400 - 500 years or so, but devils seem to run hell in Dante's Inferno, and that was published more like 600 - 700 years ago. Did Dante originate the idea? Satan himself sits at the very core of hell, at the entrance to a tunnel to heaven (purgatory actually.) That tunnel was formed by his fallng body when he was thrown down into hell, but I'm not clear when that happened. I remember he was earth during Jesus's time, so it must have been after that. The interesting thing about Inferno is that it mixes the Greek Tartarus with the Christian hell without any self consciousness.

400, 600, what's a few centuries between friends?
I'll try to find out where that started, I just meant to throw it in as a sop to Cerberus, that the biblical notion and the modern notion are very different.
Agreed, it's very bizarre to find Dante dealing with Medusa and such.

Link to the Mailbag Article: What is fire and brimstone?


[Note: This message has been edited by CKDextHavn]

Interestingly, the modern, Christian Hell is actually based, for the most part, on extra-Biblical ideas. Many modern Bible translations avoid using the term 'hell' since it inaccurately conveys the meaning of the original Hebrew and Greek terms (Sheol and Hades). Those terms actually refered to the abode of the dead, and had no moral implications.

A common misconception is that the lake of fire refered to in Revelation is hell, but reading further at Revelation 20:14 reveals that hell can't be the same as the lake of fire since it is cast into the lake of fire. Also, Biblical texts never refer to the devil being cast into hell. Revelation 12:7-9 mention him being thrown down to the earth, Revelation 20:1-3 states that the Devil is imprisoned in the abyss for a thousand years, and Revelation 20:10 states that he is thrown into the lake of fire and sulfer.

I would assume that at least the idea of a supernatural being ruling over hell would date back to Greecian times.

In school, we were always told that Satan was a very powerful being. He over-saw the toture of sinners in hell. He basically ran the Democratic party, he wrote most of the popular music, he caused floods, famines, and pestillance. He also built the abortion clinics and Hollywood. He was a very busy guy.

I once was diciplined for asking if he was powerful enough to do all of this, why wasn't he powerful enough to fix up hell? You know, put in some air-conditioning, cable, window treatments . . . get some new linoleum, and have a fumigator take care of that awful sulfur stench. Maybe put in some track lighting . . .

to Lissa---

you sound like an catholic school girl like me. Laughed my---dare I say it---- bottom--off reading your response.

Not Catholic . . . Baptist/Christian Fundamentalist. We envied the Catholic schoolchildren.

For two modern Christian images of Hell, see "The Screwtape Letters" and "The Great Divorce", both by C. S. Lewis.

Lissa's teacher sounds like a Dualist, which is, as a matter of fact, heresy (Baptist, Roman Catholic -- doesn't matter; Dualism is just plain heretical). The Devil has no powers but the power to tempt and the power to bully everyone in Hell weaker than he is -- maybe the power to work a few basic magic tricks, too.

For the purposes of Dante's fiction (and please remember that he was quite aware that he was writing fiction; as a Christian, he believed in Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven, but he didn't believe that he was writing literal truth about them), he assumes that the Hades of classical myth is the same as the Christiah Hell, so that Virgil can be his guide. (In medieval times, Virgil was considered a [kinda, sorta] honorary Christian, because a certain passage in one of his poems was taken as a prophecy of Christ.)

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John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams

It's been awhile since I read Dante's Inferno, but I don't recall Satan running Hell. He was trapped in a lake of ice--immobolized--not overseeng the torture of others.

If one were looking to poetic literature for the notion of Satan ruling over Hell, then a better source would be Milton's Paradise Lost, which contains Satan's famous line, "It is better to reign in Hell than Serve in Heaven."

Although you are correct that Dante does not show Satan himself as anything but impotent, junior devils generally run the tortures.

But as I said in my initial post on the subject, hey, that's just cause they're tougher than the mortals. Hell is the ultimate Hobbesian dystopia.

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John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams

Although you are correct that Dante does not show Satan himself as anything
but impotent, junior devils generally run the tortures. *********** Kids are always up to no good.

Skott--If you're referring to the idea of Hades, you have to remember that all the dead went there, good and bad. The truly evil were singled out for special torture (remember Sisyphus?), while the truly good were allowed to drink the water of Lethe, forget their old lives, and be reborn. The balance lived their lives as shades, neither happy nor unhappy. Oh, and the people that were buried without coins on their eyes were condemned to wander the banks of the river Styx.

The Jewish concept of Sheol was very similar. Christianity codefied the idea of afterlives for the good, bad, and indifferent, but that's not to far off from the Norse afterlife, where the valiant were rewarded with perpetual parties.

Agreed, it's very bizarre to find Dante dealing with Medusa and such.

Not at all. It used to be that the Christians equated every other religion as devil-worship, particularly the old ones. Case in point-- the modern image of the Devil. He looks much like a satyr, no? To tell the truth, before they came up with that image, Lucifer looked like any other angel. I remember from reading "The Devil and Tom Walker (no guarantees on that name, memory fuzzy)" that Beelzebub referred to himself as "the one to whom the Indians consecrated this land". Hell, even Beelzebub was an old god. Then again, it wasn't all vilification. You know the face of that hippie on the stick? That was taken directly from a statue of Zeus. And we all know about all the little rituals and festivals that were assimilated, all Borg-like, into Christianity.

It doesn't stop at Christianity. According to Hinduism, one of the incarnations of Krishna was Buddha-- his purpose was to test the faith of the hindu. A la Satan.

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"If A=B, B=C, and C=D, do not get a job proofreading" --Quid's Theorem

While the "pagan gods = devils" logic has a long history, it does not seem to be operative in Dante, who assumes the historic truth of most classical mythology, but is silent on the Olympians. He appears to use, instead, the alternate paradigm "pagan gods = God, misrepresented", but never touches the point directly.

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John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams

The idea that the pagan gods represent the Christian God in primitive form has ancient origins. The Romans and Greeks before them, for instance, when they conquered a peoples, simply included their pantheon in the Roman/Greek pantheon. "Oh, you worship Ba'al? Well, that's just another name for Zeus. Ashante? Same as Hera." This is why the ancient Greek and Roman empires had relative tolerance of other pagan religions -- they could be easily meshed together. There are lots of gods, so yours can fit into our structure easily.

The ancient Israelites and early Christians were a different matter -- their God was NOT the same as the old pagan gods, and would not accept these others deities. Thus, the Greeks and Romans viewed the Jews (and early Christians) as obstinate, thick-headed, religious loonies.

Christianity later turned the tables, by taking pagan ceremonies and practices and covering them with a Christian (and monotheist) guise. However, there were some strange juxtapositions; there is no doubt that some of the early conversions were made by saying that Jesus was "the same as" Mithra, or Mary was "the same as" the earth goddess, of some of the northern pagan religions. The idea was (as I understand it) to convert them first, and clear up these peculiar identifications later.

So Dante was following a time-honoured tradition in shuffling the pagan deities and mythology into the Christian hell.

Concerning the old ones that the Judeo-Christian tradition supplanted, when I've read the parts of the Bible that seem to pertain, I see a lot of "I am a jealous God" or "have no gods before me" etc. but can't remember anywhere it claims He says He's the _only_ one. I'm sure, however, if its there, someone will tell me where in Gehenna to look.

>>Concerning the old ones that the Judeo-Christian tradition supplanted, when I've read the parts of the Bible that seem to pertain, I see a lot of "I am a jealous God" or "have no gods before me" etc. but can't remember anywhere it claims He says He's the _only_ one. I'm sure, however, if its there, someone will tell me where in Gehenna to look.<< --Alan Q


The Bible was not written in a day. And unfortunately, the one you buy at the bookstore contains stories NOT in the order they were written. If you read the stories of the Bible in the order they were written, you see the development of monotheism.

Yes, as originally conceived, Adonai, the G-d of the Jews was one of many gods-- the greatest, though, make no mistake. Ex. 15:11 says "Who among the gods is like You, Adonai?" cf. Ps. 86:8.

There's even a place in Ezekiel, which eludes me now, where Adonai is given the people Israel. Given by whom? Well, uh....

You won't find much in the Bible that regards Adonai as the only true god. You'll find that in later literature-- the Book of Maccabees, the so-called "New Testament," the Dead Sea pesherim, et al.

When ever possible, Torah references to many gods are reconstrued to fit the idea of one true god. For example, it the Exodus passage quoted above, rabbis tell us it means "Who is like You among the gods that are worshipped?" In other words, the "other gods" are not necessarily real gods; they exist only in the imaginations of their worshippers.

It's disingenuous, of course. But if you insist on believing that the Bible is true verbatim, then you run into real trouble when the plain meaning of something doesn't match your theology.

So where in gehenna do you look? Don't bother.


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--Rowan

If my mother had been in charge of the War on Drugs,
it would be "Just say 'No thank you.'"

I think that the modern concept of hell is an after the facts invention to coerce folks into believing in christianity. Its been a while since I read the Bible, but i seem to remember nothing being in there about the average sinner being tortured for eternity. I seem to remember it saying non christians and sinners would be consumed by fire and it would be as if they'd never been born. In otherwords- no afterlife, but no eternal torture either. btw lissa. Track lighting? what is this? hell as a 70's bachelor pad? Perhaps a waterbed also, huh?

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Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it.

You should read the Bible again.

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John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams

btw lissa. Track lighting? what is this? hell as a 70's bachelor pad? Perhaps a waterbed also, huh?

Along with the zebra striped sofa, like Larry had on Three's Company, couple of lava lamps . . . I hear Satan's a real swingin' guy, but that he drew the line at the mirrored disco ball on the ceiling.

John K, a comment like that isn't very helpful, is it? I suggest you cite chapter and verse if you want to better make your point.

Yes, well, a remark that Hell was "invented to coerce folks into believing in Christianity" isn't very helpful, either. I mean, when you actually think about it, it makes no sense at all, does it?

So it's not the sort of thing I feel like getting up and researching while the clock is ticking away the pennies on my phone bill.

But one might point out the "eternal" or "everlasting" of Matthew, 26:42, 46, or Mark 9:42-48.

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John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams

Let's remember--you go to heaven or hell AFTER Judgement Day. Until then, nobody goes anywhere; we all just lay around in our graves, rotting. The idea of going straight to hell probably comes not only from the Greeks, but also the Romans. The sewers under Rome were populated by outcasts, pickpockets, and the like. Romans buried their dead in nearby catacombs. Put two and two together.

For a book that supposedly answers every question, the Bible leaves a lot to be desired. Who runs Hell? What happened to the Ark of the Covenant? Where did Cain find a wife? Was Jesus ever married? I know some authors hate to do rewrites, but jeez, a little proofreading doesn't seem like that much to ask

DrTom writes:

Let's remember--you go to heaven or hell AFTER Judgement Day. Until then, nobody goes anywhere; we all just lay around in our graves, rotting.

Ack! A heretic! He denies that the blessed departed enter immediately into the Beatific Vision.


Where are the matches?

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"Gold cannot always get you good soldiers, but good soldiers can always get you gold"

Not the typical western view, but Eastern Orthodoxy has always gone with the "soul sleep". The Bible, frankly, allows of more than one interpretation on the point.

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John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams

The earliest Biblical books not only "allow more than one interpretation," as John K says, in fact they don't mention life-after-death at all. The first ten or eleven books of the Bible (through Deuteronomist history -- that is, through II Kings; and we could add, many later books as well) clearly take the attitude that justice is to be found in THIS world. There is no mention of resurrection, messiah, heaven (as abode of the dead), hell, nothin' like that. The closest we get is in Kings, when Elijah (and later Elisha) revive people from death (or possibly administer CPR.) But those are clearly just "healings", reversing two tragic, premature deaths.

Over time, the notion that justice happens in this world was clearly at odds with reality. The later prophets (especially Isaiah) started muttering about a messianic era to come, when the good are rewarded and the wicked are punished. However, the future messianic age was clearly phrased in terms of this world, not a non-corporeal realm.

It's not until way late, long after the death of Jesus, that we get biblical writers talking about "Paradise" as a place after death. Some of the gospel writers attempt to pre-date this notion, by twisting earlier prophecies of a messianic era; and such efforts were very effective propoganda for early Christianity. Then much later came visions of halos and harps, devils with pitchforks, etc.

So, as you say, John K, the Bible is subject to lots of interpretation, just pick the verses that best suit your needs.

Dex:

It's not until way late, long after the death of Jesus, that we get biblical writers talking about "Paradise" as a place after death. Some of the gospel writers attempt to pre-date this notion, by twisting earlier prophecies of a messianic era; and such efforts were very effective propoganda for early Christianity. Then much later came visions of halos and harps, devils with pitchforks, etc.

I will agree with you on New Testament and Patristic authors selecting and defining "messianic" texts in light of their own views. I think that you miss an aspect of Jewish thought when you place all the talk of Paradise "long after the death of Jesus." (Halos, harps, and pitchforks are, indeed, much later.)

There was a considerable body of Jewish literature extant at the time of the first century that did, indeed, discuss aspects of eternal salvation and eternal punishment. The books of the Maccabees (used by early Christians and included in the Catholic canon although rejected by the Jewish community at the council of Jamnia as having not stood the test of time) refer to the Resurrection and to prayers for the dead. Hell, (often Gehenna), is described as a place of eternal punishment in the various books of the Jewish apocrypha that also remained outside the Christian canon, including: The Assumption of Moses, The Apocalypse of Baruch, 1 Enoch, and Esdras. Similarly, Paradise (the third level of Heaven) is mentioned in Esdras, 2 Baruch and others. The imagery used for heaven and hell within the New Testament often follows these texts fairly closely.

My point is that Christianity did not invent these images from whole cloth outside Judaism. These beliefs were being considered within Judaism at the time that Christianity appeared. Christianity took these ideas and expanded upon them while mainstream Judaism considered them, then set them aside.

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Tom~

Fair enough, Tom. The problem with trying to write concisely about any of this stuff is that it's almost impossible, and one gets lengthier and lengthier comments. I was trying to generalize the mainstream trends, and probably over-generalized. Certainly each development sprung from (and overlapped) the thoughts of the prior eras, and certainly there were non-mainsteam sects proposing ideas that later were adopted (or rejected) by mainstream.