Ask the doc with first-hand SARS experience

To all those who gave me such wonderful support in the last weeks - thank you! Your kindness was really appreciated. It meant a lot.

Now, if anyone’s interested, I’d be glad to try to answer any questions you have about SARS in general, its effect on me, its effect on the hospitals, etc.

I must be honest and admit two things upfront:

  1. I am a clinician, not a researcher and certainly not an epidemiologist (but can try to fake it a bit)
  2. I may be a bit tardy and/or terse in my responses. Things are still pretty busy for me.

So, is there anything you want to know about SARS?

How fast is the progress of SARS in a population, who are most at risk in the US, and are there any prophylactic measures to be taken?

Thanks much, Karl.

  1. What’s the general atmosphere in the wards/containment areas, and

  2. What precautions are you clinicians taking to keep from getting it?

A couple of questions:

  1. I travel fairly regularly abroad. What areas should I be concerned about?
  2. Does the media-proported mask idea really work? Should I wear one of those dopey, paper-thin masks if I’m working with locals?
  3. What are the initial signs/symptoms? Is there anything specific I should look out for? Anything different from say, the common influenza virus?

Tripler
Not worried, but I’m on the lookout. Containment is key.

Does wearing a mask really help prevent its spread, or is that pretty much just a placebo type of thing?

What forms of contact have you seen it spread by, most commonly and also less commonly?

And on a more personal note, do you think the chances of it spreading into a port city like New Orleans that gets a lot of shipping from Asia are greater than elsewhere in the US?

Ooh, to follow up after butrscotch:

Does anyone have any initial idea if it’s an airborne, waterborne, ir insectborne vector disease? Is it passed by food maybe?

Tripler
Just curious.

How fast is the progress of SARS in a population, who are most at risk in the US, and are there any prophylactic measures to be taken?

I don’t know how fast it spreads. In China, where there are more cases than anywhere else, the pace seems rather slow compared to, say, influenza. More than one person has commented that if SARS spread as fast and as readily as influenza, there’d be millions of cases, not thousands.

The only prophylaxis seems to be to use precautions like avoiding people with SARS risk factors who also have fever or respiratory symptoms.

What’s the general atmosphere in the wards/containment areas

It’s actually very professional, very inspiring in a way. People are proud to do this and want to set an example for each other. So, everyone takes precautions and there’s no bravado. Everyone double checks everyone else. I imagine that’s a pretty common mindset for the military or police, but I hadn’t seen this before in my experiences in medicine.

There’s some fear too. And a bit of fatalism. More than once, I’ve heard comments to the effect of “It’s just a matter of time before I get this”.

What precautions are you clinicians taking to keep from getting it?

Very strict restrictions on hospital visitors. In fact, essentially no visitors for a month now. And, anyone, doctor, nurse, CEO, anyone with a fever, flu-like aches, cough does NOT get through the front door.

All patients with fever, cough, etc. are assumed to have SARS (unless there’s an obvious alternative explanation). So, any patient with a fever, cough, etc., is isolated and cared for as we do for a real SARS patient (see below).

For a “confirmed” SARS patient, we do NOT use space suits (believing them to compromise both dexterity and viral protection (!)). Instead, we gown, double glove, goggle, use hair nets, have an additional visor in front of the goggles, and pay meticulous attention to using cleansing soultion between each step as we “de-cloak”. We also remove the parts of our apparel gingerly and in a way to minimize dispersion of virus. The gloves, gowns, goggles, visors, nets are one-time use only. And, of course, all patients are in isolation rooms - in our place so-called “negative pressure” rooms.

I travel fairly regularly abroad. What areas should I be concerned about?

AFAIK, China and Hong Kong are the key worry areas. Things are coming under control in Singapore and Vietnam. This is the type of question you’re better off checking out at W.H.O. or similar.
Does the media-proported mask idea really work? Should I wear one of those dopey, paper-thin masks if I’m working with locals?

Masks are effective but not needed unless there’s SARS rampant in the community (as there MAY be in Hong Kong or China). Any mask will give some protection since the virus is believed to travel in rather large droplets which are stopped by even “cheap” masks. The virus particle itself is only stopped by masks of the N95 or similar type. Such masks are overkill for the general population (IMHO)

I should also point out that there’s some evidence that SARS survives on inanimate surfaces. This consideration makes the use of gloves important so long as the wearer remembers not to touch his face etc with them!

What are the initial signs/symptoms? Is there anything specific I should look out for? Anything different from say, the common influenza virus?

Great question. In most cases the first symptoms are some combination of fever, muscle aches, or sense of unwellness. Pretty non-specific. Sometimes there’s just a headache or a bit of diarrhea or a sore throat. A runny nose is rare and seems to essentially rule out SARS. Breathing trouble and cough tend to be later manifestations.

In your opinion, has the government and media done a good job of handling this crisis?

Our small Simcoe county hospital was placed under restrictions at the same time as the big Toronto ones. I’ve been listening to the reports from back when they had the three daily radio conferences. Public Health came out with a containment strategy on the fly which seemed appropriate. They kept telling us next Thursday or Friday we would see the exponential rise in cases; then over Easter… We wore the masks and gowns and were told in apocolyptic terms that this was the new normal.

We’ve yet to see a bona fide case. We’ve been wearing the masks and gowns and gloves. We were admitting those with pneumonia and no epi link for observation before the provincial guidelines. I’ve seen the number of patients I see, including some sick ones in need of care, drop by 30%. Initially, when the EMO was getting involved, it took me seven hours to transfer a patient with peritonitis due to bowel rupture to a bigger centre. Transfer times in general are still terrible. Other ER docs at my small hospital hae been inable to get the bigger centres to accept our patients with atypical pneumonia unless they are actually intubated despite these bold precautions.

It seems possible that:

  • the disease has been in the community since the outset (given the delay in getting masks, etc.), but that many cases are subclinical and do not have fever and all the symptoms
  • that only those with severe symptoms end up going to hospital despite the Telehealth ads
  • that health care workers were disproportioantely affected because they had their temperature and symptoms checked daily (inclusion bias)
  • that if the above was true, this would explain why early SARS tests showed positive results in people with mild repsiratory symptoms
  • that if the above was true, SARS is less lethal than advertised since many are subclinical and can’t be tested for this.

What could you say to debunk this idea? I think public health initially did well, that the media did a horrible job and that the overall reaction was excessive and not well tempered by reassurance when it was appropriate. I travel to Toronto often, did so during the crisis, and do not feel the WHO gave out a different message than Public Health and the media.

How worried should the average American be about it? Average European? Asian? Chinese?

Does wearing a mask really help prevent its spread, or is that pretty much just a placebo type of thing?

Please see above. Masks are valuable, even the “cheap” ones but are probably overkill for the general population. For people working with SARS, masks are just one part of the protective armamentarium.

What forms of contact have you seen it spread by, most commonly and also less commonly?

Virtually all cases were close contacts of feverish and coughing patients. Family spread was very common at the beginning before isolation precautions and general SARS knowledge was available. Also, just being in the next hospital cot beside a SARS patient was a tragedy waiting to happen (and it did).

No case of transmission of the disease from asymptomatic SARS patients has ever occurred. So, even if someone gets full blown SARS tomorrow, being close to them today is NOT a risk.

There’s also been some spread (presumably) by the fecal oral route. The SARS virus has been isolated from the stools.

At our hospital we had several cases of what have been termed “super-spreaders”, i.e. people with SARS who, for whatever reason, are highly contagious. Most of our health care worker cases can be traced back to contact to two or three of such patients.

Do you think the chances of it spreading into a port city like New Orleans that gets a lot of shipping from Asia are greater than elsewhere in the US?

I’d be more concerned with air traffic. People can fly in faster than they go from being asymptomatic to symptomatic and infectious.

Does anyone have any initial idea if it’s an airborne, waterborne, ir insectborne vector disease? Is it passed by food maybe?

It’s believed to be droplet borne. The virus travels in a droplet of mucous and/or water. This is good news since droplets fall to the ground. Unless you walk into an area coughed into by a SARS patient in the last 30 seconds or so, the droplets will have already sunk down. Conversely, if something is airborne it stays in the air for a long while.

*In your opinion, has the government and media done a good job of handling this crisis? *

Yes and no. They’re only human. I don’t think anyone really appreciated what was going on and, more importantly, what should be done from a public health perspsective, for a few weeks. It also would have taken balls. After all, things were unclear and a false call, or misguided directive could have had immense consequences.

From the third week of March onwards, I, and others, felt that using the military and/or having special SARS hospitals would have been advisable. Even now, I think that all SARS cases should be contained at one (or a few) sites. The advantage of the military is that their people are inherently more mobile and, IMO, less critical for the day-to-day running of the health care system. I think it’s silly to have our teaching hospitals paralysed by SARS. They’re one of the most valuable resources in our whole system.

*It seems possible that:

  • the disease has been in the community since the outset (given the delay in getting masks, etc.), but that many cases are subclinical and do not have fever and all the symptoms*

I agree completely. Many of the doctors and nurses with presumed SARS have minimal symptoms and relatively speedy recovery.

- that only those with severe symptoms end up going to hospital despite the Telehealth ads

But these are likely the most infectious people. At least when they’re hospitalized, they can’t spread it further (or so it was hoped!)

*- that health care workers were disproportioantely affected because they had their temperature and symptoms checked daily (inclusion bias)

  • that if the above was true, this would explain why early SARS tests showed positive results in people with mild repsiratory symptoms
  • that if the above was true, SARS is less lethal than advertised since many are subclinical and can’t be tested for this.*

I agree with much of this. Still there are lots of cases where the health care workers first got symptoms and then got screened (and mostly after direct SARS patient contact). From speaking to too many of my friends who have been affected, I’d say the consensus is that you know when you’ve got it. Bad myalgias. A real sick feeling. Fevers. And the blood work is impressive. Lymphopenia ( <0.5), high CK’s (300 range), and serious LDH rise (often >1000). These can occur even if the pulmonary manifestations are minimal or absent.

What could you say to debunk this idea? I think public health initially did well, that the media did a horrible job and that the overall reaction was excessive and not well tempered by reassurance when it was appropriate. I travel to Toronto often, did so during the crisis, and do not feel the WHO gave out a different message than Public Health and the media.

I think the media overdid it. But then again, maybe it was their hype that scared people into compliance and vigilance. I do think they got the government’s attention and that was good. We sure didn’t as docs. I think WHO was full of shit since we NEVER had a community problem aside from the intial Scarborough Grace cluster. And we never exported it, except, again, for one of the near-original contacts. People travelling from Canada with strept throat or pneumococcal pneumonia were labelled as having SARS when they arrived at their destination.

How worried should the average American be about it? Average European? Asian? Chinese?

On a personal level, not very. The chances of contracting SARS, even in the countries with the highest rates, are low. And, even if you get it, the vast majority of people do fine.

I’d be more worried about its effect on health care in general since the apparently appropriate response (strict isolation and quarantine) prevents hosptials from carrying out most of their other functions. In Toronto, and I gather Hong Kong and China, there are also BIG economic impacts. Not good if you’re a hotel worker, or a waiter, etc.

And, Qadgop: This thread is dedicated to you! My e-mail is down so I couldn’t let you know in advance. Take care!

Time for bed. More tomorrow p.r.n.

Thanks a bunch!

Our hospital actually used the military early on – we have a base close by. They still do a lot of the screening, and our hospital could not have done without them. I agree they should have been more widely used.

It is clear the WHO advisory was shite. They didn’t say anything about Ebola, after all. Your points are well taken. But when fifty thousand people go to watch a baseball game and two wear masks and get their picture in the paper… when a politician belatedly tries to reassure the public and is snapped wearing a mask in hospital… the media hype surely affected the WHO decision. If it got government attention too, hopefully this will be used to deal with a bona fide severe crisis; not turn every minor flu season into a new crisis.

I fear for West Nile; during the Norwalk “crisis” it was scary to see the media telling everyone with mild symptoms to come to the emergency room.

I have several friends at the big Toronto centres. I think they’d know if they had severe SARS, but they are health professionals who are acutely aware they are at high risk for exposure. I’m not sure everyone with these symptoms know when they have it, even if they do have “feel shitty syndrome” or have respiratory symptoms. I know many people with SARS have impressive bloodwork. I don’t know if everyone with SARS does, though, having heard a lot and seen far less.

My last post sounds more cynical than I intended. The super-spreaders are a big concern and the precautions prescribed were appropriate when the epi curve was increasing, and probably still are appropriate. The public health measures and protective gear clearly saved lives from SARS, perhaps at some cost to other transfers and conditions, even ignoring considerations such as imaging, surgery and other clinics. I don’t hear much about this point which has caused such enormous stresses. But when we can’t test for it, I don’t know how we can know hospitals are only seeing the most severe cases, especially if it turns out that SARS is not always progressive.

I am not an internist nor infectious disease expert by any means and rely on advice from those with more expertise. We’ve been following this advice pretty faithfully. Many clinics in the community that saw patients with flu-like symptoms followed few precautions and generally are not the worse for wear – hopefully because contagious patients were generally seen in hospitals and not the community. How can you know?

And thank you so much for your efforts. I do know and appreciate what a severe strain SARS put on you and your family. I appreciate this thread, your efforts, and the efforts of all those dealing with such a difficult and nebulous problem.

What are the odds that some clueless MD out there is going to send a sample to the lab where I work, thinking it’s some other, more common respiratory virus, thus killing me?

I’m an asthmatic and I have to travel internationally. I do take precautions, but if I get SARS on top of my asthma, is that pretty much an automatic death sentence? It might sound stupid, but I’ve been terrified of this.
Grace

Here is something I haven’t been able to glean from the media reporting on SARS. Most people recover, some people die. What makes most people recover? Early detection and treatment? General better health (i.e. age, nutrition, etc)? Or is it a crap shoot, where some people just pick up a particularly bad case of SARS?

Is SARS contageous through spit? I ask because in China most people use chopsticks and eat from common dishes (eg, use your chopsticks to pick up food from the family plate to your rice bowl, eat, pick up more food with saliva laden chopsticks, repeat).

if it is, then would that suggest that SARS is not so contageous?

It also appears that droplets/rubbing eyes is a virulent form of transfer. Would you agree?