Pro-lifers: What would you do if you were in charge?

[Greyson3]

Originally posted by GeoJon
rem: Fetus = Baby, latin.
rem: State posters state " better to care for your unborn child... your baby before it is born, get prenatal care..."
of the same state stating: "...legal termination of a fetus".....
hmm
when money and free care costs are involved = "baby" is the word... hmmm

(All) Note:

Are you questioning the life/death of a baby with a right to choose, -relative to penalties for acts~
or just acts around living 'fetal tissue' ?

Where you start here is the real question #1.

(All)Lastly, for now,
why pick at the unfinished phrase of "pro-life" not remembering= pro-life of the unborn human child, or being"
and not compare such picking at
"pro-choice"
arguing hypocracy to what is the phrase "pro-choice"-of the mother
vs
"pro choice of the unborn baby being, still in a womb"

Just judgement here requires a moral of determining definitions of hypocracies, meaning that one has a morality from someone or somewhere, (not self induced) to even declare a hypocracy about anything, let alone this thread of penalties, or thread of pro-life decision making.

what

[Philly Style]

Originally posted by Blalron
I know you think its wrong, but not all wrongful taking of human life is treated the same way, either by most people morally or by the law. There are certain circumstances which making a killing more wrong and less wrong.

Does the fact that this human is incapable of feeling pain and is unaware of its own existance and is completely dependent upon draining the physical resources of an unwilling host to survive have any impact AT ALL on how this wrongful killing should be punished? Even the teensiest tiniest bit?

You are making a sophist argument. I will also assume that should a child with a disorder that causes them to be unable to feel any physical sensation, and is still unable to feed himself, this would be a freebie using your logic. Should sedated people be allowed to me killed? Also, it is debatable as to whether or not pain is felt.

Let me make it easier. This is premeditated, cold blooded, lack of remorse murder.

[GeoJon]

Why do we all not know there is full and complete evidence of human self awareness, smell and sound , remembered and aquired in the womb...
Should your life as a human be merely snuffed out if you lose self awareness... and for how long in a particular coma...???
Why not study more of the facts of your being in a womb and learn that there are no more questions regarding self awarenesses and ABSOLUTELY FACTUAL THAT PAIN IS FELT ALONG WITH VOLUNTARY MUSCLE CONTRACTIONS AND GRIMACING OF THE UNBORN BABY AS EARLY AS TH EARLIEST SUCCESSFUL PREMATURE BIRTH , KNOWN TO ALL WHO STUDY THIS.Does the fact that this human is incapable of feeling pain and is unaware of its own existance and is completely dependent upon draining the physical resources of an unwilling host to survive have any impact AT ALL on how this wrongful killing should be punished? Even the teensiest tiniest bit?

[GeoJon]

PLEASE STATE CONDITION #1, B~N,
is a fetus a living human being baby , or not ?

2nd, Please, politely asking,
Where does your judgement of fair morality stem from ?

Then conditionally discorse of penalties will have its meanings from the courts of 'Man is the morality' or another as a 'Giver of morality',
with relative definitions of love and hypocracy following a stem belief.

Simply,
does judgement/consideration of your Q's come from molten rock solidified by cooling rains and protein goo-to-you-by-way-of-the-zoo,
or
do we accept belief(s)
of any moralty handed to us to choose from?

[Blalron]

GeoJon, if you want your questions answered try phrasing them in a more coherent manner. Your writing style is difficult to understand, to say the least.

[GeoJon]

PLEASE STATE CONDITION #1, B~N,
is a fetus a living human being baby , or not ?

[GeoJon]

Why not study more of the facts of your being in a womb and learn that there are no more questions regarding self awarenesses and ABSOLUTELY FACTUAL THAT PAIN IS FELT ALONG WITH VOLUNTARY MUSCLE CONTRACTIONS AND GRIMACING OF THE UNBORN BABY AS EARLY AS TH EARLIEST SUCCESSFUL PREMATURE BIRTH , KNOWN TO ALL WHO STUDY THIS.
(videoed reactions of unborn baby in the womb submitted to point of probe and finally suction-dismemberment showed absolute reactions ...)

[lezlers]

Susananne,

You never really answered the question about what would happen if the fetus was endangering the life of the mother. You said it would be a lifeboat situation. Maybe my brain is on Saturday speed, but I didn't get an answer out of that.

What if it is determined at 5 or 6 months that the mothers life is being endangered by the fetus? Who gets to decide who is going to live in that situation? The mother? If she chooses herself then by your rigid definition, she's guilty of murder. If she chooses her child, then you are permitting suicide. For being so "compassionate" that doesn't seem to be consistant. Would you just make her go through the pregnancy and see what happens? By your rules, if she chooses herself she's guilty of murder and would face execution anyhow. So basically, you're guilty of murder in that situation, by leaving her no choice but to commit suicide.

[Blalron]

CITE?

[Blalron]

GeoJon, I didn't ask you to repeat the same gibberish. I asked you to write more clearly.

[GeoJon]

Blalron
Thank you for your response, I'll space it out for you style of understanding to make it easier...
Current Q-
What are you saying, "CITE?" to the others ?

Prerequisit for me to answer your list:

PLEASE STATE CONDITION #1,
Is a fetus a living human being baby , or not ?

[Blalron]

Originally posted by Philly Style
[b]You are making a sophist argument. I will also assume that should a child with a disorder that causes them to be unable to feel any physical sensation, and is still unable to feed himself, this would be a freebie using your logic. Should sedated people be allowed to me killed? Also, it is debatable as to whether or not pain is felt.

The crux of my argument is that you can't drain the physical resources of an unwilling person in order to save another.

For example, I could lay dying in a hospital and desperately need a blood transfusion from somebody who has compatable blood.

Even if you are the only person in the entire world who can keep me alive, nobody can FORCE you to give me your blood.

If I die because of your refusal to give blood, it may be a tragedy, and you may be a complete jerk for not giving me your blood, but it is still within your rights not to give me your blood.

Even if you've been giving me your blood and keeping me alive for a few months, you could suddenly decide to STOP giving me any more blood. Even if that kills me, even if you are a complete jerk for doing so, it is within your rights to do that.

The fact that a fetus is not self aware, has never been self aware in the past, makes this even less of a tragedy than it could be.

[Blalron]

Current Q-
What are you saying, "CITE?" to the others ?

Cite means I am asking you to give me the source of your claims.

Prerequisit for me to answer your list:

PLEASE STATE CONDITION #1,
Is a fetus a living human being baby , or not ?

It is living. It is human. It is not a baby.

[GeoJon]

Your open accusatory style of rational is noted, Bla~

"incohe~" , "Gibber~"

Now
back to a question:

2nd, Please, politely asking,
Where does your judgement of fair morality stem from ?

This question regards all of us noting that either You are your own Morality, or do you believe that it is 'Given' to you, received other than of yourself, received by another , other than you?

Only then will your questions clearly explain you to us.

[GeoJon]

Thank you,
Now we know that your idea of penalty can not regard a baby, so your questions regard something else, but human , other than a baby.
What manner of humanity is this ?
Please explain to the point of understanding what might be a crime against this 'human'....
ie) Any rights?
Within your morality.
Or just in the context of a GIVEN morality as a belief system.?

And what semmantic breaks down this fact in your thinking:

Fetus = Baby, [Latin] ?

What was the baby before, say, a premature birth, of 4 months since conception , that lived ...?

[istara]

JustThink about it Blalron...

[GeoJon]

commitment

a "supposed-Majority" or "popular" opinion is exposed with knowing what each of our realities really are, and if we want a less-than-majority thought process to rule the majority, then let us be sure all thoughts are still of your true self, tabled fairly (as you call ‘fair’).

There are not any WRONG answers here, as we study each other a bit.

I'll attempt to review your careful simplicity to the reader and mimic your style for understanding and discourse~

~Please, politely asking,
Where does your judgment of fair morality stem from ?

[GeoJon]

further for later this week: Good Bye for now, Thanx~

commitment

a "supposed-Majority" or "popular" opinion is exposed with knowing what each of our realities really are, and if we want a less-than-majority thought process to rule the majority, then let us be sure all thoughts are still of your true self, tabled fairly (as you call ‘fair’).

There are not any WRONG answers here, as we study each other a bit.

I'll attempt to review your careful simplicity to the reader and mimic your style for understanding and discourse~

~Please, politely asking,
Where does your judgment of fair morality stem from ?

This internal prerequisite discourse regards all of us~
That WE can be asking
1-
is that fair judgment either one person being their own Morality,
or 2-
is that morality 'Given' to that one
(or if, even equally 'Given' to all persons),
-as morals (fair concepts within mental constructs) 'Given'
that are simply received other than of oneself, that is a morality received by Another , other than you?

Side:
Does this human in the womb have free choice alone,
does this mother have free choice alone
or
does the not-so-silent connection to the human within that mother persuade herself to make a cross-willed commitment among all of her thoughts
-to the best of her knowledge-
then if applicable, -
actions considered among counselors-
among who she may lean upon (trusted -proven, if any)
of not just a legal consideration...bearing bare consequences that mere legal questions wont solve for either decision of life for that human or not life ...

Then answer your Q's.

[Stratocaster]

Originally posted by Blalron
This is precisely what I was asking you to do when I listed the activities.

I'm asking you to write the different circumstances, and how those different circumstances affect the punishment.

You have got to be kidding me. You are asking me to contemplate every possible circumstance in which an abortion could occur and let you know how I'd prosecute, eh?

OK, I'll get back to you in a few years. Please don't hold your breath.

[Badtz Maru]

Hmm, Susanann's world where reproductive rights are so restricted (and laws restricting them so harshly punished) would make an interesting setting for a science fiction story. For one thing, considering the number of natural miscarriages and the fact that these would have to be investigated would probably mean that a sizable percentage of the population would have to work in law enforcement to handle the caseload. It would also drastically effect the USA's relations with other countries, as we would have to closely monitor potentially pregnant females who travel abroad to make sure they aren't sneaking out to get an abortion. Since this law would greatly reduce the number of abortions (if not eliminate them), the population distribution would start to shift as well, and social programs for taking care of unwanted children would have to be much more complicated and invasive.

Hmm...

[GeoJon]

You are asking me to contemplate every possible circumstance
~~~~~~~~~~~

Including:

"...within your rights to do that. " -of BLALRON

I ask
fair morality stems from ____________ ?

Now simplify your foundatin for the human in the womb to live or die , noting less than 1/3% are pregnancy by rape, for instance,
then
we can discuss penalties of pretense...

OK. Good Night from OHIO, USA

[Stratocaster]

You know, that guy makes a lot of sense. Somebody pass the bong.

[Guinastasia]

GeoJon, I don't understand a word you're saying.

Let me see if I can simplify this-you are asking if a fetus is the same as a born baby?

No, it is not.

[Blalron]

Originally posted by Bob Cos
You have got to be kidding me. You are asking me to contemplate every possible circumstance in which an abortion could occur and let you know how I'd prosecute, eh?

Pretty much, yes.

OK, I'll get back to you in a few years. Please don't hold your breath.

If you are unwilling to take on my challenge, I will play devils advocate and write all the laws that I would make if I were supported outlawing abortion.

I could do this in a single evening, it would not take me years.

[Bryan Ekers]

Evidently, Justhink has returned.

[Bryan Ekers]

Evidently, istara beat me to it.

Damn.

[MEBuckner]

Moderator's Note: Just a reminder that if you suspect another poster is a troll, sock puppet, or returning banned member, the proper thing to do is to report this suspicion to the Mods, not to publicly speculate about it in the middle of Great Debates.

[GeoJon]

C'mon, let us review real sway of the people in America...
not the Nintendo-Hollywood version-

Before deciding on penalties~

Then defined -the HUMAN in the womb (as Bla~ recants)
is a human,
but
I still have yet to see if admission of unborn-baby's (proven) self awarenesses and feelings and pain responses get to the table .
-
here, for the CHOICE of the RIGHTS of that human in the womb, that a simple MAJORITY of other fellow humans appear to believe exists...

rem: stick to FACTS- 1) Lat."fetus" = BABY

2) Posters for welfare case mothers have written: Take care of your BABY (not fetus) Befre Birthing.... [on walls in those offices]


Well just where is the weight of 2200 opinions ?
(Just Like the state of OH majority feels):

To what extend do you support abortion?

Never: 52.39%

First Trimester(rape incest): 17.10%
[of the 1/3% of all pregnancies aborted as a rape claim]

Third Trimester(mother at risk): 8.00%

First Trimester: 7.79%

Third Trimester: 7.21%

Second Trimester(mother at risk): 4.63%

Second Trimester: 2.89%



by CgiScripts.Net

[GeoJon]

HISTORY:

Doctors with the aid of microscopes discovered
that conception happened when the newly discovered female egg and the sperm unite.
Up to this point people believed that life began when the mother felt the baby move. A moment known as "quickening".

It was not the clergy,
but the American Medical Association ama, founded in 1847, that the greatest pressure for legal change came from.


In the middle decades of the nineteenth century several state legislatures began to restrict the increasingly common practice of abortion.

[Stratocaster]

Originally posted by Blalron
If you are unwilling to take on my challenge, I will play devils advocate and write all the laws that I would make if I were supported outlawing abortion.

I could do this in a single evening, it would not take me years.

Have at it. Let me know how it goes.

[GeoJon]

In times of hardened hearts, a husband determined the penalty:

EXODUS 21: mid~
slave/servitude times-
21:20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21:21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

of Killing the human in the womb:
21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Again a context of that time-
21:26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.
21:27 And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.

21:28 If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit.

[imthjckaz]

Is there a GeoJon translater somewhere, like babblefish, that I can go to and figure out what the hell he/she is talking about?

[Blalron]

Fetus = Baby, latin.

Actually, fetus means "a bringing forth, progeny" in latin.

[lezlers]

Oh! I get it now. We're supposed to base all law and punishment on the bible! It's all clear to me now GeoJon. Thank you so much for the enlightenment!

[candida]

Looks like yet another Christian posturer (one of an almost endless line) who completely misunderstands 'eye for eye . . .'

How many times does one have to tell them that it does not mean retribution, it means restitution?

Otherwise, what would happen if a blind man took out the eye of a sighted man, or a man with no teeth . . . . ?

I guess it plays to their revenge fantasies.

[lezlers]

The hamsters went on strike before I could continue my post.

I just wanted to say to everyone who continually cites the bible as proof of claims in debates about anything other than the bible itself, that it holds absolutely no weight and has no relevance for those of us who are not members of bible based religions.

Not everyone in this world is a bible thumping Christian, your arguments should reflect that. Use facts, not fables, to support your argument please.

[candida]

lezlers

Doesn't carry much weight with those of us whose 'bible' it was in the first place!

:;

[lezlers]

candida

[emacknight]

I thought of another wrinkle to this ideal pro-life world: jury selection.

If you keep upping the punishment, the woman and doctor are going to be seen as victims. I'm sorry Susanann but in this regard you're an idiot. Death penalty requires that all 12 jurors agree that execution is warranted; just one person disagrees and no death penalty. I guess in your ideal world you could also make it illegal to be pro-choice, then disagreeing with execution would be illegal, or get rid of the jury or something like that. But I really doubt you could find 12 people that would all agree to kill that poor single mother of 3, that almost died during those three pregnancies, that was raped by a psychotic…(violins playing) and I was describing the doctor.

[Zoe]

This is the most bone-chilling and frightening statement that I have read in a long time:

Susanann:

After we execute the first 10 or 20 thousand women and doctors, the executions will go quite smoothly and quickly.

Susanann, would you consider that "pro-fetal life" would be a better description of your views?

You know, when a person, guilty or innocent, is executed, that tends to remove most of the spunk from that person's body. She or he becomes short one life. In terms of some of the beliefs which I think I have heard you express, the chance for redemption is gone. And the strange thing is that most of them were fetuses at one time! That is no coincidence, in my opinion. So if you protect that fetus and it becomes a doctor who performs abortions, you are at least as guilty as the woman who answers the phone at the clinic.

[GeoJon]

[Text of copyrighted article deleted. -- MEB]

[MEBuckner]

Moderator's Note:



GeoJon: Please review our FAQ on Copyright Issues. Do not cut-and-paste entire articles; if you want to include more than a brief quotation from another web site, simply include a link to the page you want to refer to.

Since the article you posted appeared to have been posted in the wrong thread to boot, I just deleted it entirely.

[Annie-Xmas]

Why won't any "pro-lifer" answer my question: WHAT ABOUT FETUSES IN TEST TUBES? If a woman discards them, should she be executed?

Jesus. I've been asking anti-abortionists this question for decades and never gotten an answer. All this talk of "fetuses in wombs." What about fetuses in cold storage?

[GeoJon]

noted: moderator

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Discussion Prerequisit amplified last time:


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fetus = Baby, Latin.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

of Blalron- quote:

Actually, fetus means "a bringing forth, progeny" in Latin.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you meant "the what" that is the "progeny"
that is the BEING (of a human) or thing that is brought forth,
then you also mean that of
IN THE WOMB IS that
P R O G E N Y (noun, not a verb, here, as you may know)
~
encyclopedic reference for understanding :
-as in breeding,
in agriculture and animal husbandry,
PROPIGATON of plants and animals by sexual reproduction;
...of parents to produce PROGENY

So back to simple truth :
About human progeny, KNOWNS:
sensing pain in the womb (toooo obvious to argue),
sounds, knows the sense AND immediately after even premature birth- C-sectionings, knows the smell of the mother…
feeling and self awarenesses WITHIN the womb,
rare- but in the first trimester, and-to-second, easily known~
this PROGENY
is not an act or action like a verb,
but only a thing ~

again :
posted on walls of welfare offices which mothers stand in front of, large posters about health care~
... your B A B Y ...
'take care of it before it is born.
it is a human , a being, and ... (c'mon)...I’ll be using the English: baby

Note:
not yours , BLALRON, but if of others:
Disregard those usually male-ego-nonisms
invented to (only to) save face by trying to convince a Lady-now-mother (of that male’s progeny) that a human,
that THEIR progeny of conception, is other than a baby .

That may be ego-gibberish for a mother to be persuaded (as we all are , daily) to confuse truth of a human life.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Dunderman]

GeoJon, lay back. Read some threads. Study other people's posting style. Note the complete sentences. Note the absence of ~. Note the absence of words in capitals. Note the way it is possible to follow what they're saying.

Then try to imitate these things. Your posts will be much improved, and other posters will be encouraged to read them, think about them, and respond to them.

[GeoJon]

qt:
Oh! I get it now. We're supposed to base all law and punishment on the bible! It's all clear to me now GeoJon. Thank you so much for the enlightenment!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
qt:
who completely misunderstands 'eye for eye . . .'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Looking for a little more objectivity~

seeking to understand stem of justices/logic~
What was your persuasion that lead you to your reality?
Is it relatively of your own opinion
or
absolutely truly your solid self-derived calculated expression?


Where the concept of conception moves from baby to using a named word , not a translated word, and of a general belief masked by other than a simplest translated word we will see fetus replacing progeny replacing baby
...
OK
Only if it does not change this fact:
HUMAN, as in human being~

Now answer Q's / penalties. (or review EXODUS,and the like)

Now answer-
who completely misunderstands 'eye for eye . . .' ?


Reader:
-discern a difference between sighting another historical document
(I felt was a mere review about largely proven RECORDS of past findings in multiple copies- laws of a land and a people- EXODUS )
vs.
what is 'fable' or a mere view of a nations past beliefs
or
find most stems of your historical records to be defined as fables,
-some effort,
but it is there to be seen.


Note:
Did you hear-
Walls in Iraq, of another author , prior to remodeling last year, had an Assyrian account of civilization as found in the number-one top book selling in the world: the Bible.

Less than 4 years ago, another (only Biblical) city was uncovered.

Do you believe in Greek philosophers’ lives and writings ?
Some major and common ones don’t even have one historical record found earlier than 900 A.D.


You don't know my beliefs, elsewhere we can discuss where are the roots of generational thinking from that have lead to our thoughts, your thoughts...

[GeoJon]

Thanx $GUY

As you see,

it is exciting,
however, I am understanding a little of why another comfortably responds and gets blasted about their response to B's Q's.

And why it is of much persistance to hold a conversation together, let alone my family of 20 years, etc.

But as I try to simplify and not over word ( obviously better of others I read)
the Q's of foundationals precepts of each respondees persuasions tell us what semantics and words mean that they use , a bit better.

Hmm.

[GeoJon]

? WHAT ABOUT FETUSES IN TEST TUBES? If a woman discards them, should she be executed?

VS:
Other: been asking~ talk of "fetuses in wombs." What about fetuses in cold storage?


The baby, human progeny from conception may not FEEL as important to us as a 4-month premi, nor 9 mo. birth.
The weight of censoring (accounting for) this human life is going to fall to a dogmatic penalty in killing it
or majority of voters getting to the poles
maybe allowing legal homicide.

[Bryan Ekers]

Has there been a radiaition leak in Northeast Ohio that has not been covered in the mainstream press?

[Stratocaster]

Originally posted by Annie-Xmas
Why won't any "pro-lifer" answer my question: WHAT ABOUT FETUSES IN TEST TUBES? If a woman discards them, should she be executed?

What gives you the impression that all pro-lifers believe abortions on fetuses in the womb ought to be punished with execution? Your questions is not logical.