A study recently out on domestic violence basically confirms what almost anyone with an once of life experience and common sense knows is true in terms of the way many couples interact, and yet domestic violence advocacy organizations are outraged that characterizing women as anything but the abused (and not the abuser or aggressor) is blaming women for abuse.
Why is this study, which indicates that quite common, physically aggressive behavior by women (ie hitting, slapping etc) if overly engaged in predicate to real conflicts can help to create a dangerous relationship context when disputes arise, such a contentious issue for domestic violence advocacy groups to deal with? It would seem to be simple common sense that women who play rough may well get handled the same way at some point if a toe to toe dispute arises.
I don’t know if I’m able to offer anything pertinant since I’m still recovering from one hell of a left hook this past Saturday. She was a 5’2" ball of muscle and while we were sparring in kickboxing class I zigged when I should’ve zagged, all while dropping my right guard (Stoopid!). BAM! right on the chin. Stars, ears ringing and if I hadn’t of had my mouthguard in, she would’ve chipped teeth. I got hit harder than I have ever been hit in a very very long time. I am 100% serious: I still can’t chew food properly.
So, maybe I do have something to contribute. Anyone who dares say that women can’t hit men hard has obviously never been hit by a woman. A woman who knows how to punch will easily beat a big fumbler who just throws his fists all over the place.
Because of this and a few other experiences in martial arts (like getting thrown on my ass in judo a few times by a girl half my size) has taught me to be egalitarian in violence. If a woman attacks me, I will not pull any punches.
That said, I have been in a few violent relationships where I was the punching bag. Elbows to the ribs, slaps, shin kicks, etc. I just didn’t react to those because I didn’t want to escalate the violence. But if I had stayed in those relationships, I could easily picture a ‘breaking point’ where something hurt just a bit too much and I felt I needed to defend myself from further attack. And I’m sure I would have been the one to go to jail for breaking her nose or bruising some ribs.
I think the groups who are outraged are setting up a viscious circle. What is so bad about telling women that if they are violent, violence will happen?
Not news to me. The first Mrs. Zebra was violent towards me on several occasions. Of course I wouldn’t know how far outside the norm that relationship fell.
It’s nice to know I’m not the only guy hit by his wife.
Well, women are certainly capable of being violent; however, a point that the article seems to gloss over is the fact that typically (and statistically) women are much smaller than men, and much less capable if inflicting mortal wounds, Tomcat’s experiences not withstanding.
If you look at statistics the partner that ends up being killed in a domestic volence situation is typically the woman.
If you ignore that then it’s possible to put the blame for domestic violence equally on men and women. BUT - a slap in the face or a kick in the shin, or heck - even a broken bone, can’t really be compaired to death.
I assume that the outrage is based on that fact - if you make women out to be perpitrators as often as men, you ignore the fact that a much smaller percentage of men get killed by their women partners than the other way around.
Theres no equity and the article sort of implies that there is.
Why are you sparing girls anyway? Even if you win, big deal…you beat a girl. And if you loose…well…
I’m going to have to agree with alice_in_wonderland here. Unless your girlfriend/wife is Mia St. John or an ex-Israeli commando or something, odds are the guy will have a distinct physical advantage over the girl (Unless she gets you in the nuts :eek: ).
CAN women initiate domestic violence? Sure. Often? I don’t know if that’s the case. Scarborough says something about “the stats we showed” in the interview, but they don’t seem to be in the transcript.
I would go a little further and speculate that when it comes to serious injury, not just death, it’s the women getting hurt more than the men. And as bad as it is to initiate violence, slapping isn’t in proportion to broken bones.
Also, note the source. Isn’t Scarborough one of the right-wing guys MSNBC hired in its effort to appeal more to conservatives? I don’t know if there are reports that support this study - i.e., if many others would agree - or if it flies in the face of the work everybody else is doing. One report doesn’t really lead to rock-solid conclusions.
Yes, men can do more damage to women than vice-versa on average. However, if you don’t want to get hit, don’t hit in the first place. I learned this in kindergarten. No one would have any pity on me if I walked up to the biggest guy in the bar and started hitting him and he then beat the shit out of me. I would have, in fact, been asking for it.
You folks can dig about in the above cited reports. From my recollection of them, the bottom line is that women are slightly more frequently victims of domestic violence than men, but not by much. Most importantly, however, women are about three times more likely than men to be victims of serious domestic violence or death.
In other words, rate of violence is similar, but degree of violence is hugely different.
Neurotik - I think the point some of us are trying to make is “proportioned response.”
If I slap my man in the face (which I can’t imagine doing, ever, under any circumstances) then I deserve to get slapped in the face. This seems pretty straight forward.
However, if I slap my man in the face (which I STILL can’t imagine doing) I don’t deserve to die. Period.
Even if women are instigating stuff, it in no way mitigates the fact that men are killing them. It’s all about drawing a line. If slapping my man is asking to be killed, how about lipping him off? Calling him a moron? Obviously, none of these things are condusive to a healthy, nurturing relationship, but none of them deserve the death penalty either.
Neurotic, going rambo is not a reasonable response to domestic violence. The approrate response is to remove one’s self from the situation, which may or may not include assistance from police, shelters, etc.
Excuses such as “She asked for it,” “She deserved it,” or “She hit me first,” do not hold water.
Yes, that is the appropriate response to physical violence. And going rambo is not reasonable, and if the man does hit back or kill the woman then he should be charged and I hope he gets what he deserves.
That doesn’t change the fact that if you initiate violence, I won’t have any special pity for you if you get seriously injured or killed, beyond “Too bad that happened” and “It’s always sad when people get killed.” You shouldn’t have hit in the first place and you brought it on yourself. Proportioned response or not.
My dad has a friend who got into an argument with his then wife. During the course of this argument she took a plaque off the wall and swung it at him. He grabbed her arm to prevent said plaque from hitting him in the head. He is the one that was required to go to domestic violence counseling-apparently he grabbed her arm a little to hard.
Not to stop a good tangent from taking place, but I think the point of the report was that women who engage in kick-slap-beat behavior when annoyed with their SO (and a surprising number do) , even if it’s not hospitalizing their typically larger, stronger male SO, they are in some fashion validating violence in the relationship, and potentially laying the groundwork for a physically violent response if a disagreement or fight occurs.
The point made by the domestic violence advocate (Klein) that women being at risk of domestic violence in a relationships, has little linkage to their own violent behavior seems (IMO) to fly in the face of common sense. There seems to be almost no appetite for domestic violence advocacy groups to have women accept or shoulder any degree of responsibility for validating violence in relatiionships through their own aggressively violent behavior. If you want to stop domestic violence this seems, to me, to be a somewhat head in the sand posture to take with respect to the real world context of how human SO relationships develop and maintain themselves. Violence (even if female) will often beget violence. Why is this such a taboo issue?
I guess my question is, how many times does a woman have to hit you before it becomes acceptable to defend yourself. I know that the appropriate thing to do is leave, but I also know that circumstances aren’t always so cut and dried. What if she continues to assault you while you’re looking for your car keys? Should you leave your children with her? If you call the police and complain that your partner is abusing you, will they take you seriously? How does one safely restrain a violent person without creating a dangerous situation or being accused of assault themselves? Food for thought.
I never saw my mother make physically agressive moves at my step-father, however I did see him come flying at her with hs fists landing furiously from behind, for trying to leave the room when he was screaming and using profanity.
Just because a study says it may be that way, doesn’t mean that every woman beaten by a man did something to instigate it.
This man came totally unglued because the milk in the refrigerator was from powered milk. It escalated when she told him she would get fresh milk in the morning. He insisted she go then. She refused indicating she and us (the kids) were already in nightclothes.
I was 10, my younger brother 8, my older brother 16. When the step-father attacked her she managed to knock his glasses off about the time that my older brother landed on his back to try to pull him off our mother. We were all in the room and none of us understood how a person can come so totally unglued over milk.
He was arrested that night. Spent three days in the pokey and we had a restraining order and were moved into an apartment by the time his three days was up. He ended up stalking us for years.
Sometimes it’s just unwarranted abuse and I think it is dangerous to suggest that the woman must have done something to escalate it.
No one is saying that in every case of abuse, or even most cases, that the woman initiated the violence. Just that if a woman is in the habit of initiating violence, it’s common sense that she is more at risk of being severely assaulted or killed than one that doesn’t. And that’s what the article is saying.
There are certainly many, many instances of unprovoked violence against women. I would hope no one is trying to diminish that.