Parents have no rights?

[ivylass]

Here.

Now, before this disintegrates into another abortion debate, let me just say that I am pro-choice. However, I have a serious problem with someone performing a medical procedure on my child without my knowledge or consent. (Barring to save her life, of course.)

Something about this just doesn't sit right with me. Yes, I know there are narrow-minded, strict parents who would disown their daughters if they got pregnant, but does that mean that the rest of us don't have the right to know that our child is in trouble? That she needs help? That she can't have her parents' love and support through such a crisis?

I may be wrong, but I don't even think you can get your ears pierced if you are a minor without your parents' consent in Florida. Certainly that was the case in SC. So if not pierced ears, why an abortion?

My daughter does not have a right to privacy where her father and I are concerned. We respect her space, but if she's having problems in school or if she got in trouble with the law, we would be called. Not the state of Florida.

She's my child. I have a right to know, until she is 18, what is going on in her life. To me, this law says that the state, not the parent, is the ultimate authority. This is not about abortion. This is about a parent's right to know what is going on in their child's life.

Am I missing something here?

[SnoopyFan]

Apparently the right of a girl to abort her baby overrides the right of a parent to know what's going on in their kid's life and perhaps give them guidance and help them sort through all the issues at hand.

That's what I gather, anyway. I'm with you on this one, it's NUTS.

[Ferret Herder]

I'm trying to find the policy of the hospital that I work at regarding medical privacy of minors. However, the best I can find so far is that in many (not all) cases, if the minor does not want the parent knowing about something, the physician may not inform the parent. Hopefully someone will pop up with something more concrete - but anyway, it's not just abortions. Doctor-patient confidentiality is important.

I'd be more concerned that a child/teen is worried enough to not want their parent to know about some medically important issue than I am about the fact that they have the legal right to not have to tell the parent about it.

[Mr. Moto]

Simply speaking, the pro-abortion side insists on one hand that abortion is just another medical procedure, while championing laws that treat the process differently than any other medical procedure.

Doctor-patient confidentiality usually does not apply to parents when a minor is involved, and rightly so.

[Eilsel]

Okay so pretend you're that girl. How would you feel, given her exact situation? I am just playing devil's advocate here. I know that if I got pregnant I would have probably run away or had an abortion. I am pro-choice as well (something that doesn't sit right w/my church family but hey, tough ) but sometimes you don't have any options when you're a teen and your parents are horrid.

That being said, it would really piss me off if someone did that to my kid LOL

[Eilsel]

Further, I'd like to add, that I am pro-choice, not pro-abortion. I feel, IMO, that there is a big difference.

[Bruce_Daddy]

That is stupid. Something as serious as abortion should involve the parents. And yes, you must have your parent's permission to get your ears pierced here. Talk about consistancy.


I'll bet you a million dollars this dissolves into a pro-choice/anti-abortion argument

[Aries28]

Hey...are you going to back up your bet with those PowerBall winnings?

Oh....that didn't work out?? Hmmm.....whoops.....

I will take your bet...I bet it gets turned into a "us" vs. "them" kinda thing REAL quick....

[Mr. Moto]

Unless the parents have been found unfit, they have rights.

I agree that if a girl is in this situation at a young age, she doesn't have a lot of great choices available to her. However, that doesn't remove her parents from the equation.

I'm a dad, albeit a new one. If my daughter were raped, taken advantage of by an older male as a teenager or pregnant by another teen, I would need to know, so her mom and me could help her.

I'm very much in favor of parental consent laws, Parental notification laws are a weak substitute, but better than nothing.

[Mr. Moto]

Also, I'm aware that there is a pro-choice side. There is also a pro-abortion side, which is most vocal in its denunciation of parental rights.

[MLS]

Originally posted by Mr. Moto
Also, I'm aware that there is a pro-choice side. There is also a pro-abortion side, which is most vocal in its denunciation of parental rights.

I have never, ever, heard any person or organization state a "pro-abortion" position. "Pro-abortion" means you think abortion is a good and desirable thing to be sought out. No one is in favor of that. [Bruce, you just won your bet.]

On the OP, this is a very, very difficult issue. I've heard of cases where the young woman was afraid to tell her parents and was convinced (not forced) to do so, and after predictable tears and distress found that they worked with her to find a solution to the situation. On the other hand, I am convinced that in some specific circumstances, there would be even more awful consequences if the parents were told.

Obviously, for parents, the best situation would be to establish early on that it is o.k. to come to them with problems, but I cast no aspersions in cases where that doesn't happen, because it can be due to a LOT of different causes. I was fortunate that I convinced my daughters when they first started dating that (1) If they were ever someplace they did not want to be and needed my help to get home, that they were to call me regardless of the time, place or circumstances and (2) If they got into ANY kind of trouble, they should tell me -- that our first concern would always be to get them home safe and get them help, and that we would deal with the problem together.

[dangermom]

AFAIK, this is already the case in CA, where I live. Anyone have solid knowledge? I agree, it's crazy. The fact is that abortion is a fairly serious medical procedure that can have complications, and someone generally ought to be watching to catch them. Parents ought to know what is being done to their kids. It's ridiculous and, frankly, horrifying. (I heard recently of a case here in town where the mother went to the school to find her daughter, and the staff refused to tell her where she had gone.)

I'm willing to bet that most teenage girls would prefer not to tell their parents about a situation like this, because they don't want to admit to what's going on and that they don't have full control of their lives. I have always had a great relationship with my parents, but I wouldn't want to tell them if I'd done something like that as a teen. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen.

For a long time now, state people have been assuming that they know more than parents, and should have more rights and more power where children are concerned. Overall, it seems to backfire badly.

[badmana]

I dunno, if the girl doesn't feel comfortable enough to bring something this serious to her parents, maybe the parent/child relationship needs some help?

My sister had her first abortion at 15. My mother was told about it from her and not her doctor. I find it funny that parents are freaking out about this. If you don't know what your kids are up to, having a doctor tell you against her will is the least of your problems. I don't mean from a rape angle either. Kids are having sex. Any parent who's oblivious to that fact needs some parenting classes or something. Some of my best lady friends had sex at 14-16 years old (and here's me starting at 24!).

I hate it when parents rely on the fucking law to parent their child. Maybe we should enact a law that states kids must disclose everything to their parents? Yeah, that'll work!

[faithfool]

Not to overstate what should be obvious, but hasn't one of the reasons that this is considered perhaps the best way to go is because the girl might be a victim of incest? I mean, it would be undeniably damaging to alert her parents to her potential abortion situation if daddy is the one who got her in 'harm's way'. Just a thought.

And then what happens to her?

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Even children have a right to doctor patient confidentiality. If a teenager tells her doctor that she is sexually active, for instance. The doctor cannot inform the parents. That's the way it should be.

When it comes to abortion, a lot of teenage girls would be in danger from abusive parents. If they could not receive a confidential abortion they would seek other, more dangerous ways to abort. The need to ensure a safe and legal procedure for these kids is far more important than the (non-existent) "right" of control freak parents to be informed about it. If a parent is not going to be abusive or fraek out about it, then the kid would probably tell them anyway.

The question is this: Would you rather have your daughter get a legal abortion and not tell you or an illegal abortion and not tell you?

[AHunter3]

How many people here support the right of parents to force their pregnant minor daughter to have an abortion against her will?

How does that correlate with your view regarding the right of parents to deny consent to a daughter who wants an abortion?

Me, I'm prochoice off on the extreme end of the prochoice-prolife spectrum. I understand the reason for the laws we're discussing but I agree that they are a messy and ultimately unworkable workaround to a social problem. Ideally, I think parents should be informed if their daughter is seeking an abortion because to say otherwise is so thoroughly incompatible with general parental rights regarding medical procedures; but I think reproductive medical decisions are so vividly personal that parents should not have a right to prevent or coerce an abortion.

I also think, however, that girls should have unimpeded access to birth control and b/c related information, which they do not currently have; that children of all sexes and ages should have legal protections against excessive parental violence or unreasonable punitive treatment, which is not even close to the case (see below).

In short, there is a problem with parental notification -- parents of a certain mindset and worldview are inclined to beat the crap out of their daughters and subject them to gross indignities for having sex, and their daughters would often prefer attempting do-it-yourself abortions with knitting needles and whatnot to having their parents find out that they were sexually active.

[semi-hijack]

The long-range solution to this problem is not to give minor females a right to privacy that contradicts parental authority regarding medical treatments, but rather to give minor females (and males for that matter) access to legal redress. What we have now is Child Protective Services or whatever name it goes by in your locale. This is not a system guaranteeing children the right to pursue legal protection against unreasonable parenting, it is a system authorizing social workers to call in intervention when they believe abuse or neglect is taking place. There are reasons that it is set up that way but while the rationale is good the result kind of sucks for everyone, and while I understand that 11 month old babies are in no position to retain an attorney if their parents are neglecting them, that's no excuse for giving 11 year old children no route for filing a complaint when they believe their parents are exceeding the bounds of reasonable parental behavior.

[/semi-hijack]

By itself, with no remedy for this situation being offered alongside it, I could not support laws mandating parental notification, but I'm open to suggestions and I agree with the fundamental argument laid out in the OP.

[MsRobyn]

All of you are assuming that the girl has a healthy relationship with her parents, and that embarrassment is the only reason she won't go to them for support.

The sad truth is that not every girl has that kind of relationship. There are girls pregnant by incest who would sooner die than tell anyone what was going on. How can you tell the father who got you pregnant that you are pregnant, or that your brother, cousin, uncle, whoever, knocked you up? I once knew a girl who found herself pregnant by her father; she knew damn well she couldn't go to her parents. She ended up in the hospital with an eating disorder after a suicide attempt. Should the doctor's office or hospital be required to notify the parents?

For that matter, what about girls who come from abusive or dysfunctional families? Would you knowingly send a girl into that kind of environment after her parents were told she got an abortion?

My personal feeling is that the state has no business legislating parental communication, period. They don't know what's best, but there are circumstances where protecting the girl's privacy is the right thing to do. The decision to act needs to rest with the girl and her health care providers.

Robin

[gex gex]

originally posted by Mr. Moto
Doctor-patient confidentiality usually does not apply to parents when a minor is involved, and rightly so.

Cite? As far as I know, doctor-patient confidentiality applies, as it should. Where medical issues are concerned, the patient is #1. If the kid wants her parents to know, then she'll tell them. Forcing them to seek consent only prevents people from gaining access to services that they need.

[Bruce_Daddy]

Originally posted by Aries28
Hey...are you going to back up your bet with those PowerBall winnings?

Oh....that didn't work out?? Hmmm.....whoops.....

Thanks for reminding me.

[smiling bandit]

My mother was told about it from her and not her doctor. I find it funny that parents are freaking out about this. If you don't know what your kids are up to, having a doctor tell you against her will is the least of your problems. I don't mean from a rape angle either. Kids are having sex. Any parent who's oblivious to that fact needs some parenting classes or something. Some of my best lady friends had sex at 14-16 years old (and here's me starting at 24!).

"Kids" at that can hide an swful lot from their parents, particularly ones who believ (or have been decieved into thinking) their chidlren are old enough to be afforded significant trust and help. The whole point is that these kids are undertaking a very hude decision, oe that they will have to live with physically and emotionally for a very long time, and they are likely not thinking straight.

[MsRobyn]

On review, part of my post was a little unclear. The last sentence in the second paragraph should have read "Should the hospital or doctor's office be required to notify the girl's parents in that case?"

Robin

[dangermom]

For that matter, what about girls who come from abusive or dysfunctional families? [plus similar writing]

I agree that there needs to be some way for girls from these kinds of families to get out of the notification. But that should not be the 'default setting,' as it were, for the law. I feel that the state should assume that the parents are decent people doing their best unless the girl says otherwise or there is something obviously wrong. It should be far more nuanced and local, with the girl's and doctor's input, not the state's.

I don't feel completely comfortable relying only on the girl's discretion. I'm sure we have all known kids who tried to report their parents to CPS out of spite, not because of actual abuse.

[MsRobyn]

Originally posted by genie
I agree that there needs to be some way for girls from these kinds of families to get out of the notification. But that should not be the 'default setting,' as it were, for the law. I feel that the state should assume that the parents are decent people doing their best unless the girl says otherwise or there is something obviously wrong. It should be far more nuanced and local, with the girl's and doctor's input, not the state's.

I don't feel completely comfortable relying only on the girl's discretion. I'm sure we have all known kids who tried to report their parents to CPS out of spite, not because of actual abuse.

(emphasis added)

Your post contradicts itself. In the first paragraph, you say that "if the girl says otherwise", it's okay not to notify the parents, but in the second, you say that you don't feel comfortable relying on the girl. Which is it?

Robin

[zev_steinhardt]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
Even children have a right to doctor patient confidentiality. If a teenager tells her doctor that she is sexually active, for instance. The doctor cannot inform the parents. That's the way it should be.

But, yet, OTOH, parents can be charged with neglect if they don't take care of their kids. How can I reasonably be said to be taking care of my child's health if they are going in for procedures without my consent (or at the very least, my knowledge)?

Zev Steinhardt

[dropzone]

I am not a lawyer, and I'd appreciate hearing from one here, but I am under the impression that doctors are not required to notify parents when minors are treated for ANYTHING, a presumption of "parents' rights" or the "hugeness of the decision" notwithstanding.

[PoorYorick]

From my admittedly hazy memory, there are very specific situations where a physician can act in loco parentis, including when a lack of immediate action would pose a high risk to the child. Other than that, medical authorities must have parental consent for treatment.

I'm not a lawyer, either. This is what I was told in EMT training.

[Eonwe]

To quote from the Health and Human Services page regarding HIPAA regulations:

(3) Implementation specification: unemancipated minors. If under applicable law a parent, guardian, or other person acting in loco parentis has authority to act on behalf of an individual who is an unemancipated minor in making decisions related to health care, a covered entity must treat such person as a personal representative under this subchapter, with respect to protected health information relevant to such personal representation, except that such person may not be a personal representative of an unemancipated minor, and the minor has the authority to act as an individual, with respect to protected health information pertaining to a health care service, if:

(i) The minor consents to such health care service; no other consent to such health care service is required by law, regardless of whether the consent of another person has also been obtained; and the minor has not requested that such person be treated as the personal representative;

(ii) The minor may lawfully obtain such health care service without the consent of a parent, guardian, or other person acting in loco parentis, and the minor, a court, or another person authorized by law consents to such health care service; or

(iii) A parent, guardian, or other person acting in loco parentis assents to an agreement of confidentiality between a covered health care provider and the minor with respect to such health care service.

So, from what I understand, if it is legal (in one's state) for a minor to obtain said health-care (in this case, abortion), then the parent does not have the right to obtain the information regarding the abortion.

From my time working in health insurance, I also know that, at least here in VT, minors had the right to privacy about mental health care, substance abuse care, and care relating to pregnancy or STDs.

[Eonwe]

Whoops, let me ammend that last paragraph to read "minors age 13 and above have the right to privacy, etc etc etc.

[Eilsel]

HIPAA varies state to state, at least that's what I thought.

[MsRobyn]

No, Eilsel. HIPAA is federal. Other states might have their own laws on the subject, but HIPAA is federal and thus does not vary state to state.

Robin

[dangermom]

I'm just saying that we need to be careful. Obviously we have to rely mostly on the girl's testimony, since abuse can be well-hidden; but OTOH lying does happen. A doctor faced with that kind of situation would want to do some careful investigating, and no matter what, cases would end up on the wrong side of the line, because nothing is perfect. But the state ought not to presume automatically that parents will be evilly punitive and abusive if they find out that their daughter wants an abortion.

[ivylass]

Another question...

Somewhere, a bill is going to be generated.

What happens when the parents get the bill in the mail? Or a notice from the insurance company? Surely a young girl in that much trouble is not going to be able to pay with cash.

The parents are going to find out one way or another. So if a girl is at risk from abusive parents, wouldn't it be best to know ahead of time, rather than doing the procedure, sending her home, and having the parents find out a few months later?

As much as I distrust DSS, perhaps they need to investigate if a child is in fear of telling her parents about her pregnancy. She can then be removed from the situation if warranted.

Bottom line, I do not want my daughter to walk into a hospital and have any procedure performed without my knowledge.

Dropzone, IANAL either, but I know that I have signed Waiver of Consent forms for my children at their schools, so in the case of an emergency WHERE THEY CANNOT CONTACT ME, any lifesaving procedures can be done without my permission.

I don't think minor patients have a right to doctor/patient privilege where their parents are concerned, correct?

[dropzone]

Typically, Federal regulations like HIPAA define the minimum of protection. While states can INCREASE protection they cannot reduce it.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally posted by zev_steinhardt


But, yet, OTOH, parents can be charged with neglect if they don't take care of their kids. How can I reasonably be said to be taking care of my child's health if they are going in for procedures without my consent (or at the very least, my knowledge)?

Zev Steinhardt [/b]

Neglect is about withholding certain things (adequate food, clothing, shelter, medical care). If a kid is seeing a doctor (or at least is not being prevented from seeing a doctor) there is no neglect by law. The parent has no legal liability for any procedure which is undertaken by a child under the shield of doctor-patient confidentiality. The onus is on the doctor to provide reasonable care.

[Ferret Herder]

Originally posted by ivylass
What happens when the parents get the bill in the mail? Or a notice from the insurance company? Surely a young girl in that much trouble is not going to be able to pay with cash.

Wild guess: The teenage girl in question may be going to Planned Parenthood and explaining the situation. They have sliding-scale fees and have probably dealt with the "I can't tell my parents but I'm poor" situation before.

I'm having no luck in digging up information on my workplace's website regarding parents, minors, and patient-doctor confidentiality; the search function isn't that great.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally posted by genie
I'm just saying that we need to be careful. Obviously we have to rely mostly on the girl's testimony, since abuse can be well-hidden; but OTOH lying does happen. A doctor faced with that kind of situation would want to do some careful investigating, and no matter what, cases would end up on the wrong side of the line, because nothing is perfect. But the state ought not to presume automatically that parents will be evilly punitive and abusive if they find out that their daughter wants an abortion.

Are doctors supposed to be detectives? Are they supposed to hire private eyes to find out if a girl is really abused? What method of "careful investigating" di you recommend?

The default position is that a kid is a human being with rights. If a girl says that she is abused then we must err on the side of the child. It would be impossible and ludicrous for health care providers to conduct private investigations before they provide a desperate kid with service. The proper thing for the state to "presume" is that a patient is telling the truth unless proven otherwise.

[Eilsel]

DOH! You're right, I'm thinking of the ERISA preemption and all that crap.

[Ferret Herder]

Heh, now I found it. One additional exception to the rules that Eonwe quoted - and which is true for all personal representative relationships - is that the health care provider may withhold information from a parent if the minor is deemed to be a victim of abuse or neglect, or if otherwise providing the information could endanger the minor. I'm not sure where "my parents will kick me out of the house if they find out I'm pregnant" falls into that description, but I'm sure something like "my dad would hit me if he found out" probably would.

My memory seems to tell me that if a physician has evidence that points toward child abuse, including statements from the minor patient, it must be reported - but I can't dig up anything on that at the moment.

[Sidewinder]

Sayeth MLS:
I have never, ever, heard any person or organization state a "pro-abortion" position. "Pro-abortion" means you think abortion is a good and desirable thing to be sought out. No one is in favor of that.

My ex was definitely pro-abortion. She thought it was a perfectly viable means of birth control. Furthermore, she actually stated that infanticide should be legal until the child is 2 years old. That's just cold.

[ivylass]

Originally posted by Sidewinder
My ex was definitely pro-abortion. She thought it was a perfectly viable means of birth control. Furthermore, she actually stated that infanticide should be legal until the child is 2 years old. That's just cold.

I'm glad she's your ex!

[amarinth]

It seems that if you're a parent who wants to know that your daughter is pregnant, has considered abortion, and is going to have one you need to work on establishing the type of parent/child relationship with your daughter so that if that happens, she'll come to you and parental consent/notification laws won't even be an issue.

[Eonwe]

Originally posted by ivylass
Another question...

Somewhere, a bill is going to be generated.

What happens when the parents get the bill in the mail? Or a notice from the insurance company?

Well, if the girl is going to be using health insurance to pay for it, yes, a bill will be going to the plan member. And, even though it won't say specifically what the bill is for, if planned parenthood sends a bill home, it'd be obvious that something's up.

I think though, that beyond privacy, we're talking about something a little more important. Does a parent have a right to forbid his/her teenage child from having an abortion? The OP is lamenting the lack of parental consent in regards to abortion. It's all well and good to talk about concerns about the mindset and welfare of the minor, but it seems to me that demanding parental consent would amount to nothing more than a method by which a parent could forbid such a procedure. And that, IMO, is something that should not be allowed to happen.

[tanookie]

Have any of you ever been an abused teenaged girl trying to navigate the adult world of doctors and birth control?

Since this is relative to the debate here let me tell you all a true story and see where this fits into parental consent laws.

I was molested by my father from age 3 or 4 (my memory from then is a little fuzzy) until I was 23. I lived in constant fear that he would get me pregnant or kill me although there were some days where I thought death would be good.

Anyway when I was 15 he decided it would really make his life that much better if I were on the pill. He marched me off to the clinic and I went for my appointment. Now I was terrified. I knew what this appointment meant. He wanted to take our little relationship to the next step (until this point there had been no actual vaginal penetration) I decided I had had enough of the abuse and spent the bus trip there working up the courage to tell the doctor the real reason I needed the pills and to get myself out of my father's house.

What really happened at the doctor's office went like this: I sat waiting for the doctor in my little johnny for an eternity. She came in and looked at my chart and started to berate me for wanting the pill at such a young age. She then told me to lie down so she could do the exam and since I was a virgin and I was completely terrified and embarassed the pap was a disaster. She scribbled out a prescription, threw it at me and left. When she closed the door behind her last words were spat at me 'come back when you're no longer a virgin.'

I stuffed the prescription in the trash and lied to my father. He couldn't really go to the doctors and demand I got pills as that would open up questions he couldn't answer. He did leave the penetration issue alone for a few more years though (when he found out I had actually lost my virginity he got quite pissed and raped me)

Now I have a little girl of my own. She's only 2 so we haven't discussed sex yet but we will. A lot. I want her to know what is and isn't appropriate for people to do to her and that if she is ever in any situation where she needs help that she can come to me. I also want her to be able to make the safest and most educated decisions possible about her body. I am realistic about kids and hormones and pressures to have sex. I would like her to wait until she's an adult but if she doesn't I don't want her afraid to turn to my husband and I for help. I also plan on giving this information to my son when he is old enough to understand it.

However... should one of my children feel it is necessary to seek the counsel of a doctor first/instead I would hope that the medical community has learned a few things since I was 15 and that they not get the kind of treatment I did. As a parent I understand wanting to be involved in my children's lives but as a child who needed help and didn't get it I can understand there needs to be someplace better for troubled kids to go especially for something as serious as pregnancy where they do not have to fear!

[ivylass]

Oh, tanookie, what a horrible story. I hope your father is in jail.

And you know what, Eonwe? I was talking more about notification, but the more I read your post, yes, I want the right to forbid my daughter an abortion. YMMV, of course.

Then we will go home, discuss the options, and if we decide that an abortion in in her best interests, we will take her back to the clinic.

I don't think minor children should be making adult decisions without their parents' help. And I certainly don't want her going through such a thing by herself.

Now, granted, we are not the awful parents tanookie had, but then again, that's where the doctor or DSS comes in...the girl can say, "My father got me pregnant" and then they can take it from there. But for stable families, I think the parents should have the ultimate authority over the children.

Of course, the safest way is to teach a child responsibility and the consequences of their actions, so hopefully, this situation will not arise.

Just MHO.

[tanookie]

The problem I see Ivylass is that in the real world things don't work that way.

My father is not in jail and he most likely never will be. If he had gotten me pregnant and found out about it he would have most likely forbidden me to get an abortion. He took an awfully absurd amount of pride in telling me how I probably had a bunch of brothers and sisters we didn't know existed! Heck I have a brother who might really be my uncle... I could not have handled having a child who was also a sibling.

My mother walked in on him naked ontop of me and did NOTHING. If that is possible then doctors/nurses/DSS will also manage to do nothing... or not enough... or do we drag the whole thing out in court to the point where abortion is no longer the viable alternative it was a few months earlier in the pregnancy.

I would be disappointed that somehow I failed to impart on my daughter just how much I would be willing to support her in any decision if she decided to seek an abortion without my consent but I cannot fathom circumstances where I would want to force a child to carry a child to term.

Children make adult decisions every day without their parents around. All we can do is hope we taught them enough to make smart decisions and that we've given them the confidence to stand up for their convictions.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

And you know what, Eonwe? I was talking more about notification, but the more I read your post, yes, I want the right to forbid my daughter an abortion. YMMV, of course

Why the FUCK should you have that right? What the FUCK makes you think that's your decision?

Your daughter's body is fucking HERS. You have NO fucking say over her reproductive decisions.

Would you say that a parent has a right to force a child to have an abortion? What's the fucking difference?

Your statement that a minor shouldn't make adult decisions is really fucking moot since she would have no choice about making that decision if she were pregnant. Choosing to have a baby as a minor is a far more difficult, longlasting, and frankly, irresponsible decison than having an abortion.

The choice about when to have a child is about the most personal decision any person could make and no one, not even mom, has the right to usurp that decision.

[Eonwe]

Ivylass,

And you know what, Eonwe? I was talking more about notification, but the more I read your post, yes, I want the right to forbid my daughter an abortion. YMMV, of course.

Then we will go home, discuss the options, and if we decide that an abortion in in her best interests, we will take her back to the clinic.

What do you mean "we" decide? What if her idea of her best interests conflicts with yours? I think saying "I want the right to forbid my daughter an abortion" pretty much says that she doesn't have final say, so it then becomes your decision (perhaps with her input) and not hers.

It's true that many teens might be in very unstable emotional positions if they're dealing with a decision like this. IMO that makes it all the more necessary to ensure that parents don't impose what they feel is the right thing to do on a person who is making what must be a dificult choice.

[tdn]

Originally posted by ivylass
Now, granted, we are not the awful parents tanookie had, but then again, that's where the doctor or DSS comes in...the girl can say, "My father got me pregnant" and then they can take it from there.

Read tanookie's horrible story again. She wanted to say something, and couldn't. I would think that most young girls in that situation would not feel safe revealing something like that, especially with the abusive parent in the next room.

To think that most families, by default, are loving and supportive and will understand is a dangerous assumption. There are enough that are not to warrant confidentiality. Besides, if you truly raised your daughter to trust you, would she have trouble telling you of her own free will?

[ivylass]

How dare you, Diogenes. It is my decision because she is my daughter. I have the right to decide what she will eat for dinner, how she gets her haircut, and when she gets her ears pierced. Her body is her own in that no one can violate it. However, when involving an invasive medical procedure, her father and I should have the right to know about it!

Why are you jumping down my throat? You do not have the responsibility of raising my daughter. Her father and I do. And if we decide that an abortion is in her best interests, or if we decide that it isn't, it is OUR decision, not yours, and certainly not the state of Florida's.

Eonwe, are you saying that because of a few bad apples, the rest of us good parents don't have a right to know what is going on in our children's lives? If her idea of what's in her best interest don't agree with what her father and I believe, tough shit. She's not the adult. Her idea of dinner is ice cream and pizza. That conflicts with my idea of dinner. Since I am the adult, with more life experience and wisdom, I get to decide. That's the responsibilty I took on when I decided to bear a child. That is not to say we will not take her concerns into consideration. But until she's 18, the responsibility ultimately rests with her father and me.

As I said, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. But children get funny ideas. What if my daughter gets date-raped and is afraid to tell us she got pregnant because she feels we will blame her? According to this ruling, she can get an abortion without her parents knowing she was raped. Her father and I will be denied the opportunity to help her through this crisis.

This isn't about preventing abortions. This is about knowing what goes on in your child's life. In this instance, Florida has said None Ya Business. And that is where I have the problem. I would feel the same if Florida said a minor can get a tattoo or a tongue piercing without a parent's permission.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

How dare you, Diogenes. It is my decision because she is my daughter. I have the right to decide what she will eat for dinner, how she gets her haircut, and when she gets her ears pierced. Her body is her own in that no one can violate it. However, when involving an invasive medical procedure, her father and I should have the right to know about it!

Why are you jumping down my throat? You do not have the responsibility of raising my daughter. Her father and I do. And if we decide that an abortion is in her best interests, or if we decide that it isn't, it is OUR decision, not yours, and certainly not the state of Florida's.

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit!

Being a parent does not grant you sovereignty over your children's reproductive rights. No you don't get to decide. Sorry. You don't. You don't have a right to force your daughter to carry a pregnancy that she doesn't want. This is not the fucking third world. Your kid is not your fucking property.