Athiest asked to swear an oath -- what would you do?

[godzillatemple]

So anyway, I just got myself appointed a Notary Public (yes, I am now a government official and you may all bow down before me ).

The final step was to go to the clerks office and take the "oath of office." This was accomplished by having me raise my left hand and read the oath verbatum from a card held in my right hand.

The only problem is that the oath (being an oath and not a simple affirmation) includes the phrase "so help me God." Well, I happen to be an atheist -- not one of those "it's my mission in life to prove there is no God and remove any mention of God from public buildings" atheists, but I simply don't believe in the big guy (or girl, or sheep, or whatever people wish to believe in).

In other words, I don't believe in God, but I'm not on a crusade about it. At the same time, however, I don't like being dishonest or hypocritical, and it bothered me to swear a solemn oath in the name of something I don't accept.

I thought about asking if there was an alternative affirmation I could say, or whether I really needed to include the "so help me God" bit at the end, but the line behind me was long, the room was hot and unairconditioned, and I just don't like making scenes in public. Plus, I was becoming a notary for the benefit of my job and didn't want to risk mucking it up. And so, like a good little boy, I stated the oath as it was written and got my commission.

In my mind, everything I promised to do in the oath is something I feel bound to honor, regardless of whether I believe in God or not. I firmly believe that a man's word is his honor, and I don't need the fear of divine retribution to convince me to keep it. And yet, I still feel a bit hypocritical about the whole thing.

So... Have any other dopers been in the same situation, or can you imagine what you would do in such a situation? Do you think I was wrong to swear the oath as-is even though I don't believe in God? If anybody from the clerk's office reads this thread, do you think they will take my little notary seal away from me? (Just kidding about that last one, folks.)

Regards,

Barry

[plnnr]

You can also "affirm" an oath and leave off the "so help me God" part.

Plnnr - also a Notary Public (that'll be $2 please).

[Walloon]

As plnr says, the Massachusetts Constitution (Part 2, Chapter 1, Section 1, Article 4) gives the legislature the power

to name and settle annually, or provide by fixed laws, for the naming and settling all civil officers within the said commonwealth; the election and constitution of whom are not hereafter in this form of government otherwise provided for; and to set forth the several duties, powers, and limits, of the several civil and military officers of this commonwealth, and the forms of such oaths or affirmations as shall be respectively administered unto them for the execution of their several offices and places, so as the same be not repugnant or contrary to this constitution. . .

[ratatoskK]

For me, it's not really a moral question, it's a practical/political question. Since I don't believe in The Big One, I don't think it matters one way or the other if I mumble "so help me God." On the other hand, I don't want to encourage our political structure to perpetuate this political-religious quagmire. So yeah, if I had time to complain without pissing everyone off, I might have said something about it, and maybe someday they'll change their ritual. But in your position I think I would hav done the same thing.

[godzillatemple]

plnnr & walloon: Well, that's all well and good, but at the time I was asked to take the oath I didn't know that I had any other choice.

My question remains whether other atheist (and sorry about misspelling that in the title) dopers have ever dealt with this situation, or what would they do in that situation, or whether they think I was wrong for taking the oath as presented to me.

Barry

[Bambi Hassenpfeffer]

I have to testify in a court case on the 31st, and I intend to tell whoever I can as soon as possible that I need to affirm my oath and not say "... so help me God." I assume that the prosecutor is going to help prep me for the case, and I guess I can tell him then. If they think that I am untrustworthy because of my atheism, too bad.

[3waygeek]

The Master speaks.

[Biffy the Elephant Shrew]

I don't think you were wrong, zilla. I wouldn't hesitate to take the oath. As far as I'm concerned I'd just be making a promise that I fully intend to keep. If the powers that be wish me to include in the language of that promise the meaningless and extraneous phrase "so help me God," that's no skin off my nose. I don't need Old Nobodaddy's help to keep my promises, but thanks for the support.

[gex gex]

I wouldn't take the oath with the reference to god. But I don't think that you are wrong for doing so. It's your choice.

[Aguecheek]

When I joined the (Canadian) Army, they let me use an affirmation; they even asked me beforehand if I wanted to swear to gawd or affirm, which I thought was quite considerate.

One other time when I took an oath (I honestly cannot remember why I did though, something to do with immigration), instead of the "so help me God" they supplied me with, I finish with "I do so swear." Got a funny look from the official, so I explained that I felt an oath sworn to a god would be deceitful on my part and that my personal affirmation was my moral equivalent.

They let it go at that.

[Zeldar]

Slightly off-topic, but can anybody help with the name of the movie where some man just answers the "Do you swear..." thing with just a simple "No." It caused consternation in the movie, and I don't recall its being atheism related. But there may be parallels?

[Zebra]

I've had to testify in court and I told the prosecutor befor hand that I was a atheist and we used the non-bible affirmation.

It was really no big deal.

[SpinDoctor]

The last time (traffic court), the judge swore everyone in at once, me and the next few people in separate cases, and all the cops that gave us all tickets. He said "Do you swear to..." Everyone said "I do" except I said "I affirm". He looked at me over his glasses. I thought maybe he would mind, but actually he assumed I was an attorney. When I produced photos (to show the stop sign was hidden by trees until you were too close to stop), he said "I thought you were an attorney."
Don't know if that was good or bad, but I got off.

[Kaspar Hauser]

Originally posted by Zeldar
Slightly off-topic, but can anybody help with the name of the movie where some man just answers the "Do you swear..." thing with just a simple "No." It caused consternation in the movie, and I don't recall its being atheism related. But there may be parallels?

Something like that happened in The People Vs. Larry Flynt. Of course, that was the least of his courtroom antics in that movie.

[Cervaise]

Might be kind of fun to mutter, "...so help me Og," and see if the functionary even notices.

[Fear Itself]

Even as an athiest, I have no problem with swearing an oath, or the Pledge of Allegiance, or any of other contrivance that wants me to recognize the existence of God. I look at it the same way I approach the existence of Santa Claus when I am around children; I play along for their benefit, a harmless fib to preserve the peace. It's the same with people who believe in God and expect me to do the same; I go along with the myth because I don't want to upset the children. If I refuse to swear an oath, it gives their God the power to alter my behavior, and forces me to express my beliefs, which I consider personal.

[aaslatten]

I testified in a case in Texas recently, and they used the "affirm" version of the oath without asking. What if I had wanted to swear to God? *shrug*

[Blalron]

Originally posted by Zeldar
Slightly off-topic, but can anybody help with the name of the movie where some man just answers the "Do you swear..." thing with just a simple "No." It caused consternation in the movie, and I don't recall its being atheism related. But there may be parallels?

Paraphrasing from People vs Larry Flynt:

Flynt: I'm an atheist your honor. I can't swear to a God I don't believe in.

Judge: We'll let you affirm then.

[TheLoadedDog]

When I was sworn in as a Justice of the Peace, I chose to use the God botherin' version, simply because the other folks were, and it was easier to hold the bible than not to. I'm an agnostic who has no problem with swearing by any of the world's major religions (if I had to). If it's sacred to a lot of people, then it's sacred. I'd feel morally bound by an oath I took, be it Muslim, Christian, Jewish, civil, or whatever..

As a JP, I usually have a Bible and a Quran close handy, and I can administer an oath or an affirmation. I make sure that the deponent is fully aware of his or her options, and that an affirmation, a Christian Oath, or a non-Christian one carry equal weight before the law.

BTW, plnnr, I know you were joking with your $2 please" line, but Notaries Public charge?

I'd get my balls cut off if I charged so much as five cents to perform any of my duties as a Justice of the Peace in Australia. It's a community service, and the law is very strict about receiving any payment or benefit from it. For example, I am entitled to place the letters J.P. after my name, buy I am, prohibited from doing so on such things as driver's licences (so I'm not seen to be seeking advantage from any cop who pulls me over, for example), and if I had a business, I couldn't put the letters after my name on the window. If I were the director of a club or the like, it's permissible to have the letters in tiny font on an honour board or the like, but that's about it.

[Otto]

I had to testify in crunchy granola Madison and they didn't bother with the bible or any of that. I was asked "Do you swear or affirm..." I said I do and that was that. Seems like a sensible solution.

TheLoadedDog, a notary public is not the equivalent to a justice of the peace in the United States. Notaries here are pretty much nothing more than professional witnesses, who by affixing their seal attest that the document was signed in their presence (notaries I know that's a simplification so feel free to expand). They are free to charge a fee for notarizing unless otherwise prohibited by law. On those rare occasions I've had something notarized it cost me $1 or $2.

[TheLoadedDog]

Originally posted by Otto
Notaries here are pretty much nothing more than professional witnesses, who by affixing their seal attest that the document was signed in their presence (notaries I know that's a simplification so feel free to expand).

I think the key to this lies in the pretty much part of it. A Justice of the Peace in a Commonwealth country is also pretty much a professional witness. That is to say, a JP is technically a judge, and although we have fewer powers than JPs had centuries ago, we can still do stuff like granting or refusing bail, issuing search warrants, and the like. In theory. In practice, that would only happen if a Magistrate canot be located, and that would only happen in the middle of the night in a remote outback settlement, maybe. Not in Sydney. The average Justice of the Peace would never be called upon to do that kind of stuff - it'd probably scare the pants off me if I had to. My activity as a JP is confined to witnessing declarations and the like. In fact, a lot of what I do as a JP has no legal basis whatsoever. For example, if Iwitness a statutory declaration, or an affadavit, then I'm strictly performing traditional, legal JP functions, but if I certify a photocopy, or sign off on some guy's golf club membership, I'm not. Many private institutions (such as clubs) require a JP to witness certain forms, but that's up to them. The could just as easily require a one-armed Bolivian ballet dancer to do it. It's a private business policy, not a legal requirement.

Sorry for the contitued hijack.

[Black Train Song]

I'll swear anything on your god that you ask me to.

[Doomtrain]

I'd just go ahead and swear. Not like it matters. It's the oath that's important.

[Slithy Tove]

Could just grab your scrotum with one hand and raise the other, like the Romans did. That's where the "testi" in testimony comes from.

[auliya]

I was recently in court (civil, not criminal); the opposition swore on the bible. I just said to the magistrate I wanted to affirm and they had a prepared statement for me to read out.

[godzillatemple]

Here in Massachusetts (where the procedure for the appointment of notaries public is actually written into our state constitution), notaries can, by statute, charge as much as $1.25 for the service they provide. Most probably do it for free, however. Justices of the Peace, however, can charge a LOT more for performing wedding ceremonies. I think the JP that married my wife and I charged either $150 or $200.

Barry

[Yersinia]

At my divorce hearing, I was asked if I would swear to God that I had no intention of going back to my maiden name for purposes of fraud or debt evasion. I said I didn't believe in God, but was perfectly willing to swear on my life to the truth that I had no intention whatsoever to participate in fraud, debt evasion or other criminal activities (which WAS the truth; in fact the question actually shocked me!), that all I wanted was the legal right to change my name back. This was acceptable and I was granted my divorce plus the right to go back to my former last name.

[sirtonyh]

Another athiest checking in. My opinions are very similar to the OP; I'm not a mission to prove She/He/It/Og doesn't exist or anything. However, on prinicipal I would take an oath with a reference to something I don't believe in.

[sirtonyh]

would = wouldn't :wally