Can someone explain the spice cycle? (Dune)

[Soapbox Monkey]

So I've just finished the last of the six Dune books, but I'm still a little hazy about how the spice cycle works. In the first two books, we knew only of the worms and the spice. So it was safe to assume that the worms produced the spice as an excrement, or something similar.

Then, in Children of Dune, we learn about the sandtrout, who deplete soil of all of its moisture so that they can then mature into full sandworms. But how is it that water can go from a life giving substance one moment, to being a deadly toxin for the worms the next moment?

And where exactly does the spice come in? There is always talk of spice blows attracting worms, but I had always assumed the worms created the spice. So is it the worms who create the spice, or is it possibly the sandtrout?

[ed]

Read the first appendix in Dune: The Ecology of Dune. It discusses Pardot Kynes and his discovery of the spice cycle (among other things). Basically, it goes:

- Sand "plankton" (microscopic organisms living in the sand) feeds on the spice, absorbs solar energy
- Sand plankton develop into sandtrout, the "little makers"
- Little makers corral all moisture available into a "pre-spice mass", where (I think) the spice is actually produced
- Spice blow: most little makers are killed, spice is distributed to the surface. The surviving makers begin to grow into adults
- Those that survive will become real sandworms, which feed on the sand plankton and little makers

I think that's it, I hope someone can correct this where it's wrong. As to water being poisonous, I'm not sure how that changes. It seems that a spice blow affects certain changes in the makers and this could be one of them.

[JustPlainBryan]

The re was a thread started about this a while ago. Here is the link.

[Bryan Ekers]

As I understand it, it starts with a carefully-planned debut record, followed by several bubblegum hits, then internal dissent sets in, one of the pack breaks free for a solo career while the others fade into obscurity or marry athletes, and balance is restored.

[Ike Witt]

Originally posted by Soapbox Monkey
But how is it that water can go from a life giving substance one moment, to being a deadly toxin for the worms the next moment?

I would kinda guess that this is like lactose intolerence in humans.

ed seemed to come up with the best possible answer (straight from the books). Also, remember that in GEoD there were no worms, other than Leto. He kept mentioning that when he died it would have to be near water otherwise there would never be any more worms. Leto's body was, of course, many sandtrout that bonded to him which were released when he died. The sandtrout then started the process of turning Arrakis back into Dune. As long as there was too much moisture the worms wouldn't grow.

The BG were finally able to start the worm cycle on Chapterhouse because, in addition to weather control, they allowed sandtrout to do their thing. Every other attempt to establish worms off of Dune had failed because the sandtrout were neglected.

[sylphishone]

I always thought it went like this.

The worms died and after they decomposed there was a spiceblow where the gases from the decomposition blew the remains to the surface. This was the spice. The sandtrout were fishlike objects that lived in the sand and sealed off the water so the worms could live. They had not yet become little makers and transformed because once they did they couldn't tolerate water. I also thought the worms mated and left eggs in the sand that hatched into sandtrout.

[alanmolstad]

I think....

Sand "plankton" seem to have their own life cycle, and are able to reproduce themselves.
They eat SPICE, and they themselves are eaten by the Giant Worm.

This is the reason the Giant Worm protects the space sands.

The Sand Plankton can evolve into "Sand Trout" (also known as Little makers)
Sand Trout also seem to be able to reproduce on their own.

Sand Trout are attracted to water, and gather together at a source of water in such vast numbers to the point where they will encapsulate the water.

It is the encapsulation of a planet's water by the Sand Trout that transforms a wet world into a desert world we know as "DUNE".

When the Sand Trout encapsulate water underground they also produce some waste byproducts in the water that changes the water , and that leads to the build up of CO2 gas.

Eventually this changed water is under enough pressure inside the Sand Trout's encapsulation that it will "pop" and rise to the surface
This is know as a "Spice Blow"

The Spice Blow spreads a lot of the changed water that had been encased by the Sand Trout onto the dry surface sands.
The dry and and sunlight will turn this changed water into "Spice"


During the explosion found in a "Spice Blow" many of the Sand Trout are killed.
However some escape and enter into a dormant stage where they undergo a physical change and 6 years later are a creature known as a "WORM"

The Worms grow huge, have a very long life span, and feed on Sand Plankton.


so this all started with Sand Plankton, and one creature comes forth out of the life cycle of another...
But where do Sand Plankton come from?

I dont know?

I do know that when a WORM dies, the outer skin of the WORM splits up and gives off Sand Trout.

And I know that Sand Plankton can become Sand Trout under the right circumstances...

But so far i have not been able to prove that Sand Plankton are directly produced by Sand Trout.

If anyone knows, please drop me a email

[alanmolstad]

However....

I thought I had SPICE understood until I finished reading Hunters Of DUNE.

In HUNTERS they have some captured Worms inside a giant space ship.
The big worms themselves are said to make spice.

This does mess up with where I believed SPICE was said to come from in the first few books.

[Max Torque]

Originally Posted by sylphishone

I always thought it went like this.

The worms died and after they decomposed there was a spiceblow where the gases from the decomposition blew the remains to the surface. This was the spice.

I've only finished book 1, so I'm not up to any "sandtrout" stuff yet, but this bit is the same impression I have at the moment. Spice is dead worms. That's why living worms attack harvesters: they're protecting the bodies of their ancestors.

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

However....

I thought I had SPICE understood until I finished reading Hunters Of DUNE.

In HUNTERS they have some captured Worms inside a giant space ship.
The big worms themselves are said to make spice.

This does mess up with where I believed SPICE was said to come from in the first few books.

The problem there is that you're reading the literary abortions that Herbert's son had ghostwritten by Kevin Hackerson.

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by Max Torque

I've only finished book 1, so I'm not up to any "sandtrout" stuff yet, but this bit is the same impression I have at the moment. Spice is dead worms. That's why living worms attack harvesters: they're protecting the bodies of their ancestors.

No, Spice is dead sandtrout. When the pre-spice mass blows, most of the sandtrout in it die and their bodies mix with the fluids of the mass and the sun's rays to form melange. The surviving sandtrout join together and become a worm (though a small one at first).

[TravisFromOR]

I tried reading Dune once, I found it rather dry.

[Gary "Wombat" Robson]

Originally Posted by jayjay

The problem there is that you're reading the literary abortions that Herbert's son had ghostwritten by Kevin Hackerson.

It hardly counts as ghost writing when Anderson's name is on the cover the same size and font as Herbert's. It's a collaboration: Herbert's notes on his dad's work, plot ideas developed by both, writing by Anderson.

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by Gary "Wombat" Robson

It hardly counts as ghost writing when Anderson's name is on the cover the same size and font as Herbert's. It's a collaboration: Herbert's notes on his dad's work, plot ideas developed by both, writing by Anderson.

Okay, poor choice of words. Rephrase...

The problem there is that you're reading the literary abortions that Herbert's son had ritually desecrated by Kevin Hackerson.

[Blake]

Originally Posted by Max Torque

I've only finished book 1, so I'm not up to any "sandtrout" stuff yet, but this bit is the same impression I have at the moment. Spice is dead worms. That's why living worms attack harvesters: they're protecting the bodies of their ancestors.

Worms don't attack harvesters, worms attack any source of rhythmic noise. They don't care is the source is a human being, a thumper, a shield, a thopter or a harvester. They also don't care whether the noise is anywhere near a spice mass. Anything that produces rhythmic sound anywhere at all in the open desert will be attacked. There's no evidence that they preferentially attack harvesters.

The Dune Encyclopedia was much better written and more consistent than the necrophilic literary sodomy of Hackerson, and it was written with Frank Herbert's consent and input. So to me the encyclopedia is canon, and the other stuff can be ignored.

Working from 20 year old memories, according to the encyclopedia the female worms produced a "nest" in the sand by rearing up their body length and smashing it down to produce a crater. This also attracted male worms, which literally ate the smaller females whole. The process of consuming the female paralysed the male, and the sexual organs of the dead female then moved thorugh the male's flesh and fertilised themselves using the male's sperm. The fertilised eggs then gave rise to sand plankton, which multiplied on the bodies of both parents. By the time the process was complete the crater had been well and truly covered by sandstorms, providing protection for the emerging plankton which then migrated to the upper layers of sand and began to photosynthesise in addition to scavenging any organic material.

So the worms produce eggs which give rise to the plankton. The plankton gives rise to sandtrout when they have abundant water. The sandtrout seal off the water in a pre-spice mass. The pre-spice mass explodes, killing most of the trout whose dead bodies become spice. Some o the trout survive and become little worms. The adult worms then give rise to plankton.

This also neatly explains why the worms attack any rhythmic movement. They are mistaking it for the sounds of female nest building.

With a little luck somebody who owns a copy of the Encyclopedia can correct any errors in this description.

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by Blake

With a little luck somebody who owns a copy of the Encyclopedia can correct any errors in this description.

I own a copy but I'm too lazy to look for it (I think it's in a box in the basement). My last reread was within the past year, though, and that's essentially correct to my recollection.