Help with Pointwise Convergence.

Yes this is a homework problem. I’ve been racking my brain for a few days now trying to get a grasp on the concept of pointwise convergence. I really don’t care for my textbook much, as it really isn’t very good as far as decent examples are concernced. Anyways it has to do with the way f[sub]n[/sub] relates to F. That concept I understand from years of dealing with continuity. My problem is understanding what exactly F is. I know it has something to do with the values that f converges to in the given domain but I’m still not quite understanding it, and the web hasn’t been much help. Here’s one of the problems I’m currently working on
Let f[sub]n/sub=nx[super]n/super for x in [0,1]. Show that {f[sub]n[/sub]} converges pointwise but not uniformly on [0,1].

Now just testing out a couple of different values of x, x=0,.1,.2 and 1 it seems that f[sub]n[/sub] always converges to 0 as n gets larger. But I’m not sure that’s right, or if it is, it’s irrelevent.

Now one of the defs in the book states "{f[sub]n[/sub]} converges to F on E if for each point p in E lim (as n approaches infinity) f[sub]n/sub=F§. I think I can get a decent grasp on this if I can get some help understanding how to find F.

That’s exactly right, and exactly relevant. Just look at a particular x, then find the limit of f[sub]n/sub; that’s what F(x) is equal to. Find this limit for each x in the domain, and you’ve got your function F. In your example, that limit is zero for all x, so the sequence converges pointwise to the constant function 0.

For another example, take

f[sub]n/sub = x[sup]2[/sup] + x[sup]-n[/sup]

on the domain (1,infinity).

For any x in the domain, x[sup]-n[/sup] goes to 0 as n goes to infinity, so this sequence of functions converges pointwise to F(x) = x[sup]2[/sup].

Some values of x will take much longer to converge than others–values just slightly larger than 1 can take a very long time to converge, but for pointwise convergence, all we need is convergence at each point. This sequence is not uniformly convergent, however. That would require, for arbitrary e > 0, that we can find N such that for all n > N

|f[sub]n/sub - F(x)| < e

for all x in the domain.

In other words, for uniform convergence, eventually, all the functions in a tail of the sequence must lie in the “band” bounded by F(x)- e and F(x) + e. In the sequence I gave, that can’t happen because points slightly larger than 1 screw it up.

Does that help?

Somewhat…So in my example, is it pointwise convergent becuase F converges to a point??? because f converges to a point for all x? And why is it not uniformly convergent?? Or just because f converges to a function for any x in the domain(albeit a constant function, but a function none the less)

What about your example, you say it converges pointwise to x[super]2[/super], but isn’t x[super]2[/super] a divergent funtion or is that irrelevent, it just needs to converge to a function (as opposed to what though, random numbers, or not converging at all). Which brings up another point. If there is even one value in the domain for which f diverges, does that mean that we’re done, that we don’t even have to talk about pointwise convergence on that domin?
I hope I’m making some sense here. I’m sure I’ll have more questions.

Oh heres another one, without going through the formulas (I need to be able to visualize here, and get an intuative grasp on it) why does my example not converge uniformly it seems that if it converges to the same thing for any x in the domaine (F(x)=0) that it would be uniformly continous, but I’m pretty sure I’m misunderstanding something. I know that one of the problems with the examples I have (and why your’s is better) is that it’s sort of a fluke that my f converges to the same value for all x, it makes me make incorrect assumptions about the concept.

With both uniform and pointwise convergence we are dealing with a sequence of functions converging to a function. Don’t let the “pointwise” word confuse you. The “points” in this case are the x’s being substituted into the functions.

(Note I use x**n to mean x raised to the nth power and fn to represent the f(subscript n) funtions.)

To prove pointwise convergence the value of x is fixed, for uniform convergence the value of x can take on any value in the space x is defined in. So from this result it’s easy to see if a sequence is functions is uniform convergent then it is also pointwise convergent, but not necessarily the converse. That is, a sequence may be pointwise convergent BUT there may be a point (one or more distinct x’s) where it is not uniform convergent.

For example, a sequence of funtions defined as fn(x) = xn on the interval where 0 <= x <= 1 is pointwise convergent but NOT uniform convergent on the closed interval [0,1]. fn(x) converges to F(x) = 0 for 0 <= x < 1 and F(x) = 1 for x = 1 (note that fn(x) pointwise converges to 0 for x < 1 because the sequence xn converges to 0 for x < 1). To show fn(x) is NOT uniform convergent on the closed interval [0,1] we have to prove that the convergence of fn(x) depends not only on how close (usually called epsilon or e) we want to get to the limit but also on the value of x. By doing this we will contradict the defintion of uniform convergence thereby prove that this sequence of functions is NOT uniform convergent on the interval [0,1].

So here is the meat of what you are after, what we have to do is work with the defintion of the function sequence fn(x) along with the defintion of uniform convergence. If we can prove fn(x) is not uniformly convergent on some sub-interval of [0,1], then it follows that fn(x) is not uniformly convergent on the entire interval [0,1]. Let’s look at the values of fn(x) when x=0 or x=1, the funtion is constant, so fn(x) is indeed uniform convergent at those points, but we are interested in the entire interval [0,1]. Now let’s consider the rest of the x-space, namely 0 < x < 1, in this case fn(x) = xn and we know xn converges to 0 in this interval because the sequence xn converges to 0 in this interval. So in this interval, fn(x) converges to F(x) which is the constant function 0, therefore |fn(x) - F(x)| = |fn(x) - 0| = xn for all n and for every x in this interval. But looking at the definition for uniform convergence we must be able to find a value for n where xn < e for each e we choose, so we need to solve for n. xn < e implies: n log x < log e implies: n > log e / log x. Since the value of n depends on the value of x, it contraticts the definition of uniform convergence and therefore, fn(x) is NOT uniformly convervent on the interval 0 < x < 1, which implies fn(x) is NOT uniformly convergent on the interval [0,1].

OK, now let’s do your problem.

Be right back …

(Fixed spelling errors on original post)

With both uniform and pointwise convergence we are dealing with a sequence of functions converging to a function. Don’t let the “pointwise” word confuse you. The “points” in this case are the x’s being substituted into the functions.

(Note I use x**n to mean x raised to the nth power and fn to represent the f(subscript n) functions.)

To prove pointwise convergence the value of x is fixed, for uniform convergence the value of x can take on any value in the space x is defined in. So from this result it’s easy to see if a sequence of functions is uniform convergent then it is also pointwise convergent, but not necessarily the converse. That is, a sequence may be pointwise convergent BUT there may be a point (one or more distinct x’s) where it is not uniform convergent.

For example, a sequence of functions defined as fn(x) = xn on the interval where 0 <= x <= 1 is pointwise convergent but NOT uniform convergent on the closed interval [0,1]. fn(x) converges to F(x) = 0 for 0 <= x < 1 and F(x) = 1 for x = 1 (note that fn(x) pointwise converges to 0 for x < 1 because the sequence xn converges to 0 for x < 1). To show fn(x) is NOT uniform convergent on the closed interval [0,1] we have to prove that the convergence of fn(x) depends not only on how close (usually called epsilon or e) we want to get to the limit but also on the value of x. By doing this we will contradict the definition of uniform convergence thereby prove that this sequence of functions is NOT uniform convergent on the interval [0,1].

So here is the meat of what you are after, what we have to do is work with the definition of the function sequence fn(x) along with the definition of uniform convergence. If we can prove fn(x) is not uniformly convergent on some sub-interval of [0,1], then it follows that fn(x) is not uniformly convergent on the entire interval [0,1]. Let’s look at the values of fn(x) when x=0 or x=1, the function is constant, so fn(x) is indeed uniform convergent at those points, but we are interested in the entire interval [0,1]. Now let’s consider the rest of the x-space, namely 0 < x < 1, in this case fn(x) = xn and we know xn converges to 0 in this interval because the sequence xn converges to 0 in this interval. So in this interval, fn(x) converges to F(x) which is the constant function 0, therefore |fn(x) - F(x)| = |fn(x) - 0| = xn for all n and for every x in this interval. But looking at the definition for uniform convergence we must be able to find a value for n where xn < e for each e we choose, so we need to solve for n. xn < e implies: n log x < log e implies: n > log e / log x. Since the value of n depends on the value of x, it contradicts the definition of uniform convergence and therefore, fn(x) is NOT uniformly convergent on the interval 0 < x < 1, which implies fn(x) is NOT uniformly convergent on the interval [0,1].

OK, now let’s do your problem.

fn(x) = (1-x)nx**n on the interval [0,1] (I believe that is your original function if I understood the notation correctly). First lets tackle pointwise convergence. Let’s figure out how this sequence behaves on this interval. Let’s write the sequence out in a little different format, you will agree that the original function can be defined as

fn(x) = nxn - nx(n+1).

Then we go to our trusty math reference to find out if this sequence is convergent on the interval [0,1], and if it is, what it converges to. Ok, believe me, this sequence converges to 0 on the interval [0,1], so the F(x) we were looking for is the constant value function F(x) = 0 (proof left to the reader … hehe). So, now we need to apply the conditions of pointwise convergence and see if this sequence of functions satisfies the conditions. What we need to do then is solve this equation for n: |fn(x) - F(x)| < e. Since the values of fn(x) are always > 0 on the interval [0,1] and F(x) = 0, the problem reduces to solving fn(x) < e for n. Substituting in the original equation for fn(x) we get

(1-x)nx**n < e

(Note I am a bit rusty with logs, check my work).

Or we can re-write the equation as n log (1-x)nx < log e

then finally

n > (log e) / (log (1-x)nx).

So, using the definition of pointwise convergence we must be able to say

for each x in the interval [0,1] and any e > 0, there exists an N such that when n > N, then |fn(x) - F(x)| < e.

If we set n to a value where n > (log e) / (log (1-x)nx) we have met the conditions necessary for pointwise convergence.

(Not sure I have completely solved the equation above, still need to solve for n, left as an exercise for the reader).

Now it’s time to prove this function is not uniform convergent on the interval [0,1]. After proving this function is pointwise convergent on [0,1] we realize that to find an n that satisfies the properties of uniform convergence we must also have a fixed value for x, and that contradicts the definition of uniform convergence, therefor this series of functions is not uniform convergent on the interval [0,1].

Joey P.

I think you have it with what I bolded. It’s because for any x, the sequence f[sub]n/sub converges to a point (and we then define F(x) to be this point).

The bold part is it. The sequence f[sub]n[/sub] converges pointwise if and only if for each x in the domain, the sequence f[sub]n/sub converges. Equivalently, the sequence f[sub]n[/sub] does not converge pointwise if and only if for at least one x in the domain, the sequence f[sub]n/sub fails to converge.

If there is even one value in the domain for which f[sub]n/sub diverges, then you know that the sequence f[sub]n[/sub] does not converge pointwise on that domain. You’re done; there’s nothing left to say about pointwise convergence on that domain.

Unfortunately, the adjective “uniform” is one of those overused words in conventional mathematics. Uniform convergence and uniform continuity are not at all the same thing, but it’s understandable that you’re confused. (By the way, you are quite correct that the function F(x) = 0 is uniformly continuous.)

Uniform convergence is just a stronger condition than pointwise convergence. Remember that pointwise convergence just says that for each x in the domain, if we go far enough out into the sequence f[sub]n/sub, we are guaranteed to stay really close to F(x). It doesn’t matter how long it takes to “start converging”; for some x it might get really close really fast, but for other x, it might take even longer, and for some x even longer than that, and so on ad infinitum. The only thing that matters is that at some point it does start to converge, for each x. How far we have to go into the sequence can depend on x. I’m sorry if that sounds really vague, but I’m trying to stay away from formulas.

Well, uniform convergence says that if we go far enough out into the sequence of functions f[sub]n[/sub], then for all x in the domain, f[sub]n/sub is guaranteed to stay close to F(x). The difference is subtle but important. In this case, the distance we go into the sequence cannot depend on x; basically, we can’t have some points converging really fast and other points taking nearly forever.

Sorry; I know that’s really vague, but that’s the best I can do right now without formulas.

ccwaterback, It’s Joey P’s vote that counts, but I for one can’t figure out what in the Sam Hill you’re trying to do :wink:

At any rate, this:

isn’t sound, if I have any idea of what you’re after. Sure, you’ve shown that you can find n that depends on x, but your argument doesn’t show that n needs to depend on x, i.e., that some n won’t be greater than log e / log x for all relevant x. To complete that argument you need to refer to the fact that log e / log x is unbounded on the interval, since log x -> 0 as x -> 1.

I agree with your observation, my argument was incomplete, I was trying to explain the example I found on the second page of this document:

http://www.maths.lse.ac.uk/Courses/MA203/sec7a.pdf

It’s been quite awhile since I tackled the epsilon proof arguments of analysis, so please excuse any confusion I may have caused. In general though, with these types of problems you have to take your original function and apply the rules of the definition to see if that function does indeed meet the criteria of that definition. I think I was trying to stress the technique of solving these types of problems more that being totally accurate with my algebra. Sorry about that. Thanks for you comments.

Joey P

I think you’re confusing series with functions. The sequence {x[sup]2[/sup]} is divergent; “convergent” isn’t really a word that’s used for functions (usually they’re said to “approach” a limit, and you have to specify where).

The Weak Force

Sorry if this sounds like a nitpick, but I think that you should write “It’s because for any x, the sequence fn(x[sub]o[/sub]) converges to a point (and we then define F(x[sub]o[/sub]) to be this point).” This emphasizes that we aren’t looking at f or F as functions; fn(x[sub]o[/sub]) is a sequence of numbers, and F(x[sub]o[/sub]) is a single number. Of course, I may have made the issue even more confusing.

To elaborate: we have two choices when faced with the expression
lim n->infinity fn(x)

  1. Pick an x first, let n range over all possible values, and see what happens. Then, once we see what happens at a particular x, we can generalize over all x’s.

  2. Pick and n first, let x range over all possible values, and see what happens. Then, once we see what happens at a particular n, we can generalize over all n’s.

The advantage of #1 is that at particular x, we no longer are dealing with functions, but numbers as I mentioned earlier. This means we simply apply our normal conception of convergence without any modifications. The disadvantage is that we’re looking at a bunch of different points, and then trying patch everything together. It’s really easy to get a limiting function this way, but that’s not always a good thing, because we may get a function that really doesn’t act the way we expect it to. For instance, you would probably expect differentiation and limits to be commutative: the limit of the derivative is equal to the derivative of the limit. But that doesn’t always happen with pointwise convergence.

The advantage of #2 is that you’re looking at the function as a whole. The disadvantage is that now we’re looking at a series of functions converging to a limiting function. But how do define convergence? Convergence means the distance gets smaller, but how do we define the distance between two functions? Well, one way that sounds really simple, but actually is quite useful, is to simply take the largest separation between the two function, i.e.
d(f,g):=max|f-g|
Under this definition, fn converges to F if
lim n->infinity d(fn,F)=0
If you study this definition long enough, you should be able to convince yourself that it is in fact logically equivalent to uniform convergence (I almost wrote universal convergence; I made that mistake so many times when I was studying Analysis).

So in pointwise convergence, you treat it as a function of limits, whereas in uniform convergence you treat it as a limit of functions. It’s a subtle, but very important, difference.

WRT to finding F: for pointwise convergence, you treat x as an unknown constant. In your example, you consider nx[sup]n/sup to be a function of n which involves some number x that you don’t know, but doesn’t vary. So you can imediately pull out the (1-x) part, because it’s just some constant factor. You can then use l’Hospital’s Rule on n/x[sup]-n[/sup] (This is just the function rewritten).
You then get -(1-x)(x[sup]n[/sup])/ln x-> 0
Once you have the result for one x, you can then go back to thinking of x as variable.

For uniform convergence, you use the pointwise function as a “test function”. You still have to check whether it’s uniformally covergent, but IF fn is uniformally covergent, THEN it converges to the pointwise limit.

And if you’re not totally confused, here’s something else to ponder: one can define a function g[sub]e/sub as being a function that, given an x, tells you how big n has to be for fn(x) to be within e of F(x). There are an infinite number of these functions g (one for each e), and for pointwise convergence they just have to be well defined. For uniform convergence, they have to be bounded. So consider g[sub].1/sub.
nx[sup]n/sup<.1
nx[sup]n[/sup]>.1/(1-x)
If n>1 then n>x[sup]n[/sup] so n[sup]2[/sup]>nx[sup]n[/sup]>.1/(1-x)
(If n=1, then we have x(1-x)>.1 at x=.5)
so n[sup]2[/sup]>1/10(1-x)
The RHS is unbounded as x goes to 1, so the LHS must be too.
Since there’s a g which is unbounded, this does not uniformly converge.
Unless I’m missing something (this went later than I expected, and my brain is getting tired).

PS It’s “wrack”, not “rack” :slight_smile:
PPS if you click the “quote” button at the bottom of this post, you’ll get a window with my post with the coding intact, if you want to see how to make superscripts.

Arggh! I switched the direction of the inequality. My proof that it doesn’t uniformly converge is invalid.