The centre cannot hold

[metroshane]

It's been a long time since I've been in a lit class. Can someone remind me what this Yeats quote means?

[Gangster Octopus]

I don't have the context, but generally I think that means in battle your lines are formed, the center of the line may become weak and "not hold". If that happens you best beat a hasty retreat, because your forces have been split.

[Malthus]

Originally posted by metroshane
It's been a long time since I've been in a lit class. Can someone remind me what this Yeats quote means?

It is from one of my favorite poems of all time - "The second Coming":

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of "Spiritus Mundi"
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

- What it means is surely a good subject for debate; my opinion is that it is about the triumph of extremism - that the extremes, embodying "the worst" of humanity, fly out of control, are full of "a pasionate intensity", whereas those of moderation and good will end up "lacking all conviction".

Thus is armageddon at hand...

[plnnr]

I'm with Malthus. Reason, moderation, well-tempered thought are replaced with reactionary extremism. All hell breaks loose.

[Balance]

I get two images from the line in question. They both lead me to essentially the same conclusion as Malthus and plnnr.

The first is an analogy to a line of battle (as Gangster mentioned), with humankind divided between passionate extremes, and the moderates in the middle breaking and giving way under the strain...leaving both sides vulnerable.

The second is simpler, but speaks to the same point: A wheel, spinning faster and faster, until the strain tears it apart. Again, a conflict between extremes, with the argument going around in circles and growing ever more heated, until it erupts into violence.

This may actually be the most powerful line in a very powerful, image-rich poem.

[Malthus]

One thing that has always puzzled me about the poem is the combination of nightmare imagery concerning the "second coming", and the Christian imagery.

Though I am no expert in Christian theology, the "second comming" I thought ought to be an event both terrible and joyous. In the poem, it would appear that there is only terror. The "revelation" that is at hand is not a good one ...

Is the "rough beast" whose hour is come at last that "slouches towards Bethlehem to be born" Christ himself? It would appear so, as the "twenty centuries of stony sleep" date to the first coming.

I had originally thought that the "beast" was the devil or the anti-Christ (remembering the identification of "lucifer" with the sun, and the line that the beast had a "gaze blank and pitiless as the sun"). The alternative, that the "beast" is actually Christ (or rather that Christ and the devil are one and the same), makes sense in a gnostic sort of way.

[Priam]

IIRC, Yeats believed that every someodd thousand years or so the world changes and reinvents itself. He marked Christ's birth as the last changing of the world, and believed another was imminent. These changes are marked by growing evil chaotic voices and fewer good voices to maintain the order as it stands. Thus, "things fall apart/the center cannot hold". They fall into chaos and then are reborn in a new shape, only to do so again down the road. The perpetually spinning wheel.

[Fatwater Fewl]

One way to look at it is that these lines:

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;

refer to the opening of the western mind to agnosticism and atheism, and with that opening, coming to a willingness (or a vulnerability) concerning the ideas and cultural influences of the rest of the world. You could say that "the centre" is that combination of classicism and Christianity that provided the basis of western education and western morality for so long. And, in another sense, that the very western world, which regarded itself as the centre for so long, could not hold its position (whether that position was real or delusionary) or itself together without so tight a grip that the pressure shatters it.

The "rough beast", in this context, could be the future rising from that shattering, from the mixing of new ideas and new technologies. Rough beast because of the unpredictability of such a combination of factors.

Just my two cents.

Regardless of all that, it's a great poem.

[Malthus]

Originally posted by Fatwater Fewl
One way to look at it is that these lines:

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;

refer to the opening of the western mind to agnosticism and atheism, and with that opening, coming to a willingness (or a vulnerability) concerning the ideas and cultural influences of the rest of the world. You could say that "the centre" is that combination of classicism and Christianity that provided the basis of western education and western morality for so long. And, in another sense, that the very western world, which regarded itself as the centre for so long, could not hold its position (whether that position was real or delusionary) or itself together without so tight a grip that the pressure shatters it.

The "rough beast", in this context, could be the future rising from that shattering, from the mixing of new ideas and new technologies. Rough beast because of the unpredictability of such a combination of factors.

Just my two cents.

Regardless of all that, it's a great poem.

An interesting interpretation; though in that case, the comming of a multilateral world was viewd by Yeats with horror, rather than delight, to judge by the rest of the poem!

[The_Peyote_Coyote]

If I remember correctly, the poem was written in 1917 (must check my collected Yeats tonight). I don't find it impossible to believe it refers to the horrors of WW1, which the moderates of all countries were unable to stop. That conflict certainly drenched the world in blood.

Regardless, it's a sign of truly great art that we can come up with so many interpretations of a relatively short poem.

Balance: To my mind, the most powerful thing about the poem is the use of the verb slouches in the final line. This brilliant choice of words is why I think Yeats is the greatest poet in the English language.

[Balance]

Originally posted by The Peyote Coyote
Balance: To my mind, the most powerful thing about the poem is the use of the verb slouches in the final line. This brilliant choice of words is why I think Yeats is the greatest poet in the English language.

It is a brilliant choice, and one of many reasons I love this poem. However, "the centre cannot hold" strikes me in a way that contrasts sharply with the simplicity of the phrase. I hear it spoken in my mind in mingled tones of despair and resignation. It evokes vivid images of desperate and ultimately futile struggle.

I don't know, perhaps I just spend too much time thinking about entropy. Regardless, that is the line that affects me the most powerfully.

[Fatwater Fewl]

Originally posted by Malthus
An interesting interpretation; though in that case, the comming of a multilateral world was viewd by Yeats with horror, rather than delight, to judge by the rest of the poem!

I've never read The Second Coming as being in Yeats' personal voice, rather it seems to that he was speaking for a world in the throes of change.

[Walloon]

What happened to Jesus' posture? That's what I want to know.

[monkeysee]

I've always thought the line "the center cannot hold," as well as the rest of the poem, refers to a lack in fundamental moral aesthetics. If that phrase makes sense. "Turning and turning in a widening gyre/The falcon cannot hear the falconer," also backs this up, I think, referring to a loss of core sensibility, a universal reference point. When this happens, "the best lack all convictions," i.e., we have lost faith in what is good, "while the worst/Are full of passionate intensity" - only those who react in fear and anger have the motivation to do anything about it.

This state of affairs cannot last; new ideologies must be born, and some sort of cleansing must happen (this I get from the poem). Thus the apocalyptic next part.

Of course, now that I think of it, I don't know that human history has ever expressed a profound moral center. More like institutionalized cruelty. The emotional imagery of the poem has always made me see it as more personal that political, but I like the idea that the "center" refers to political moderation. It's an interesting theory.

[monkeysee]

I meant, "centre", not "center." Stupid unpoetic American spelling.

[Malthus]

Originally posted by The Peyote Coyote
If I remember correctly, the poem was written in 1917 (must check my collected Yeats tonight). I don't find it impossible to believe it refers to the horrors of WW1, which the moderates of all countries were unable to stop. That conflict certainly drenched the world in blood.

Regardless, it's a sign of truly great art that we can come up with so many interpretations of a relatively short poem.

Balance: To my mind, the most powerful thing about the poem is the use of the verb slouches in the final line. This brilliant choice of words is why I think Yeats is the greatest poet in the English language.

Another interesting interpretation. If the timing is right, the events of WW1 certainly must have had their impact on the tone and message of the poem!

[Malthus]

Originally posted by monkeysee
I've always thought the line "the center cannot hold," as well as the rest of the poem, refers to a lack in fundamental moral aesthetics. If that phrase makes sense. "Turning and turning in a widening gyre/The falcon cannot hear the falconer," also backs this up, I think, referring to a loss of core sensibility, a universal reference point. When this happens, "the best lack all convictions," i.e., we have lost faith in what is good, "while the worst/Are full of passionate intensity" - only those who react in fear and anger have the motivation to do anything about it.

This state of affairs cannot last; new ideologies must be born, and some sort of cleansing must happen (this I get from the poem). Thus the apocalyptic next part.

Of course, now that I think of it, I don't know that human history has ever expressed a profound moral center. More like institutionalized cruelty. The emotional imagery of the poem has always made me see it as more personal that political, but I like the idea that the "center" refers to political moderation. It's an interesting theory.

I disagree with the last part. I think that, alongside the institutionalized cruelty of human civilization, there has always been a universal moral sensitivity that is common to the human condition -- even if it has been honoured more in the breach than in the observance.

Every culture I have studied has had its version of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Every society has had its share of mystics who preach compassion and care for others.

[Opheilia]

I've read your views with interest and as a current English Literature Degree student, I came across a quote from Yeat's poem in a book I had to read in my first semester. The book is called 'Things Fall Apart' by Chinua Achebe. At the beginning of his book he uses the following four lines:

'Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world.'

You may want to read this book as some of the ideas concur with some of your opinions.

[Fatwater Fewl]

Thanks, Opheilia, I'll keep my eyes open for it.

I see that was your first post. Welcome to the SDMB.

[monkeysee]

I meant, "centre", not "center." Stupid unpoetic American spelling.

[monkeysee]

Whoops, sorry about the double post.

Malthus, I appreciate your point. Thank you for making it.

[Murcielago]

I remember a few things from a discussion of this a work a few years ago. At the time of writing, the Russian Revolution and the Black-and-Tan War in Ireland were raging along with WWI.

Our Prof. discussed how Yeats envisioned the evolution of thought as a cone, with ideas swirling form the narrow centre toward the broad open end. Eventually ideas begin to swirl around a new locus, a new "cone" begins as the previous centre is lost. Projected to a societal level, this shift is a change in the social paradigm or "zeitgeist," the traditional order is displaced and a time of chaos ensues.

Certainly not the definitive interpretation, however it jibes well with other swirling imagery in the poem.

Great thread!

[refusal]

With regard to the poem's Christian imagery, Yeats had a complex view of religion, inspired by the Golden Dawn, Thelemic teaching, Aleister Crowley, and Celtic myth and legend. There are a lot of books written about the relationship between various forms of mysticism and Yeats, but it's safe to say he was not a Christian poet in any conventional sense.

However, that said, the poem almost certainly relates in part to the beast described in Revelations Chapter 13, which rises up prior to the ultimate battle between good and evil: "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion."

As well as the Great War, the poem also might relate to the abortive Easter Rising against British rule in Ireland, which took place in 1916, and about which Yeats wrote (in his poem "Easter, 1916"; the named people are AFAIK all leaders of the rebellion, most of whom were killed by the British):

We know their dream; enough
To know they dreamed and are dead.
And what if excess of love
Bewildered them till they died?
I write it out in a verse --
MacDonagh and MacBride
And Connolly and Pearse
Now and in time to be,
Wherever green is worn,
Are changed, changed utterly:
A terrible beauty is born.

On the other hand, you could compare the poem to other verses of despair and decline of the time, like Eliot's "The Wasteland".

[Humble Servant]

Originally posted by Opheilia
I've read your views with interest and as a current English Literature Degree student, I came across a quote from Yeat's poem in a book I had to read in my first semester. The book is called 'Things Fall Apart' by Chinua Achebe. At the beginning of his book he uses the following four lines:

'Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world.'

IIRC, Ursula K. Le Quin also uses these lines as the frontispiece for Always Coming Home.

What is the "ceremony of innocence?" Baptism?

[Dreaming of Maria Callas]

Yeats saw reality as a series of interlocking, spinning cones, the "gyres" of the poem. If you're interested in Yeat's cosmology, his major treatise is titled A Vision. I'm not sure if it remains in print, as it is extremely difficult reading.

UnuMondo

[Malthus]

I understood the "gyre" to simply refer to the turning motion of the falcon as it escaped the control of the falconer - it is very interesting to find that there is a symbolic meaning to it as well.

[SpaceGhostofArrakis]

Shazbot, I thought this was a Harry Turtledove thread.