Obese Children

[Shiva418]

After reading two of the recent obesity related threads on the SDMB, I went to work. I work at McDonalds and, since I'm there for hours at time, see MANY obese people come and order fat filled foods on a daily basis. Many of the particularly obese persons are regular customers. Now, if a person makes a choice to regularly eat at McDonalds and is aware of the consequences that this will have later in life then so be it. But what bothers me the most is when parents bring in enormous children and let them continue to get fatter by eating fast food.

I'm sure most people are aware of the dangers that obesity poses to children, but just in case, here's what the Surgeon General says (from here ):

In 1999, 13% of children aged 6 to 11 years and 14% of adolescents aged 12 to 19 years in the United States were overweight. This prevalence has nearly tripled for adolescents in the past 2 decades.
Risk factors for heart disease, such as high cholesterol and high blood pressure, occur with increased frequency in overweight children and adolescents compared to children with a healthy weight.
Type 2 diabetes, previously considered an adult disease, has increased dramatically in children and adolescents. Overweight and obesity are closely linked to type 2 diabetes.
Overweight adolescents have a 70% chance of becoming overweight or obese adults. This increases to 80% if one or more parent is overweight or obese. Overweight or obese adults are at risk for a number of health problems including heart disease, type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, and some forms of cancer.
The most immediate consequence of overweight as perceived by the children themselves is social discrimination. This is associated with poor self-esteem and depression.

It seems to me that since children are not allowed to make many decision that could affect them later in life (i.e. having sex, getting tattoos), perhaps there should be laws that enable the state to prosecute parents who refuse to help their obese children. AFAIK there are no such laws, or at least they aren't enforced. I know I'll probably get much crap for this post, but my heart just breaks when I see these helpless kids being so maltreated by their parents.

So what do you guys/gals think? Should the Government treat parents of obese kids the same way they treat those who commit other types of abuse?

[Lord Ashtar]

So what do you guys/gals think? Should the Government treat parents of obese kids the same way they treat those who commit other types of abuse?

So how exactly would you like the government to enforce this? Arrest every adult they see walking with an overweight child?

[istara]

Actually - given obesity is becoming (has become?) the biggest social killer, maybe having an obese child, and not getting help for it, and buying it junk food, should constitute child abuse.

Sure - it's not on a level with sexual abuse and should not be treated as such. I wouldn't recommend - except in extreme cases - that obese children were taken off their parents. But doing nothing and giving the child a morbidly unhealthy is a serious form of physical abuse, comparable to not taking it to a doctor or getting it medicine when it is ill.

[SnoopyFan]

So now we want to treat parents with fat kids worse than parents with, say, kids who are bullies?

Nice.

[monstro]

Why don't we attach tags to obese people that sound off an alarm every time they step into a McDonald's?

Or we could have social services extricate fat kids from their homes in the middle of the night and put them in boot camp.

Or we could embed subliminal messages into cartoons that make kids hyperactive. Then they'll be too jittery to sit on their asses all day.

Ludicrous ideas, right? So is arresting parents of fat kids.*

_{*I was watching this Dr. Phil (shut up) which featured a mother of a highly obese two-year-old. This child was more than 100 lbs. It was obvious she was overfeeding this child, even after she was told she was slowly killing him. The child was taken from her and quickly began to lose weight afterwards. So I think this is clearly a case of child abuse. However this is an extreme case.}

[irishajo]

Just curious - are there any regular McDonalds' customers, adult or child, that are not obese?

[monstro]

When I was in high school, drunk with priviledges associated with having a car, my sister and I used to go to McDonald's four or five times a week. Sometimes we'd go twice in one day...for breakfast and for an after-school snack.

I've never been fat but I was a good ten pounds heavier back then than I am now.

[tracer]

Ten pounds? Pah. Amateur. I was 30-40 pounds overweight all through high school, and I didn't even need to go to McDonald's! (Believe me, one can find just as much pound-packing food lying around the house to snack on as one can find at a fast food chain restaurant.)

[Eve]

Do schools monitor this at all? Back when I was in school—in the days before anyone had any civil rights—overweight kids or kids with really bad posture or some other problem would be sent to the school nurse, who would talk to their parents and suggest remedies.

Of course, they also did this if they thought you might be gay or were reading "too-advanced" books . . .

[Tsubaki]

Hey, people! The OP is talking about OBESE children's PARENTS being reprimanded. Not the kids themselves. And not children who are a couple of pounds larger than average.

As it is, CPS actually have to investigate cases of child abuse before anyone is actually charged (or am I totally wrong on that?). What's wrong with instituting a similar system for this situation?

The parents of a larger-than-average child are reported. CPS goes around there and investigates. It may be found that
- the initial report is completely false, and the kid isn't overweight
- the kid is slightly overweight, but not so bad that it would be considered abuse. The parents are encouraged to go to a seminar or something similar to learn about children's nourishment needs.
- the kid has some kind of medical condition which affects the child's weight. Talking with a doctor would confirm whether anything could be done about the child's weight
- the parents are overfeeding the child/not giving the child a decent diet and the child is obese. In this case the child DESERVES help, and the parents need education and monitoring. Maybe the child doesn't need to be taken away, but the situation needs to be fixed.

I see nothing wrong with this kind of system being implemented, whether in America, Japan or Australia (or any other country for that matter).

[Evil Captor]

Sure, but let's not forget the kids who are too skinny.

And the kids who are too shy.

And the kids who have poor social skills.

And the kids who smell funny.

And the kids who look funny.

And the kids who don't dress right.

The government should be involved in all their family lives. Really, if you don't want a government official right there in your house monitoring your activities most of the time, there must be something wrong with you.

[IUHomer]

So if a kid takes drugs or gets drunk is CPS going to be beome involved then too?

I understand what the original post is saying but I don't agree with the solution. Two things could help solve this problem. First, no soft drinks in schools and no outside services brought in to serve school lunches. Second, restricting advertising fast food on TV shows geared at kids. Its been done to the tobacco and fast food industry. Fast food can't be far behind. And yes, I know its not exactly the same situation because people do need to eat. However, they don't need to be encouraged to eat fat all the time.

Oh, or maybe they can have some smart aleck kids make some smarmy ads where they ask fast food executives some stupid, obvious questions and "catch" them at their evil game. That will get kids to stop going to McDonalds!

[Phaenx]

Proffessional bullies. That should motivate the little fatties into losing weight. I myself enjoy blinding them as they ride past my car with a spotlight (I bought a car from a police auction, old crown victoria, the spotlight is so awesome it makes me cry sometimes).

[BoBettie]

I know how the OP feels- my ex husband's sister used to feed his neice pizza all the time for dinner. If it wasn't pizza it was KFC or Hamburger Helper or Captain Crunch cereal. I swear, I never EVER saw her eat a piece of fruit or a vegatable. She was very overweight for her age and miserable, but by then she didn't know any better as far as eating habits went and the mom just kept feeding it to her. Their weekly groceries looked like yours would if you were having a big party- cakes, cookies, chips, soda. Ugh. I think it was child abuse,and if I'd thought any good would have come from it I would have turned her in. I think there should be some standard, just like there are other standards of child care that are evaluated.

[istara]

Originally posted by Evil Captor
And the kids who are too shy.

And the kids who have poor social skills.

And the kids who smell funny.

And the kids who look funny.

And the kids who don't dress right.

That's ridiculous. None of those things are fatal diseases. Morbid obesity is. Allowing a child to continue and increase its obesity is physical abuse.

An obese child could eventually DIE from its obesity.

[MmmDonut]

Originally posted by istara
That's ridiculous. None of those things are fatal diseases. Morbid obesity is. Allowing a child to continue and increase its obesity is physical abuse.

An obese child could eventually DIE from its obesity.

Hmm, well, let's see..

Shyness, poor social skills, lack of trendy clothing and bad personal hygeine.. sounds like a kid being groomed for a life of social alienation. Surely the parents could do SOMETHING to help their children in such a situation. Poor social skills and shyness are conditions that, left untreated, can progress into full-blown social phobia and/or panic disorder. Are you aware of the problems that they can cause? Depression, increased likeliness of excessive drug use, problems maintaining a job, antisocial attidude.. the list goes on. The most extreme result is suicide. These are things that could be prevented. It should be the parent's responsibility; if not, the state should intervene.

[istara]

Originally posted by MmmDonut
Hmm, well, let's see..

Shyness, poor social skills, lack of trendy clothing and bad personal hygeine.. sounds like a kid being groomed for a life of social alienation.

No - it sounds like an awkward stage that a lot of children go through. Some may not emerge from it, and some may be more scarred by it than others. But that's life. You can't provide every child with an A1 perfect existence of beauty, riches, talent, and highschool popularity.

You can try and prevent your child from waddling to class weighing 300lb by the age of 10, eventually growing dangerous fat around its heart and vital organs, being unable to exercise, suffering from shortness of breath, hypertension, diabetes, sleep disorders, and a high risk factor for heart disease and cancer.

Saying that is comparable to some poor single parent being unable to buy their child the latest sport shoes, or encouraging their rebellious teenager to do his homework and wear deodorant - that's just laughable.

[MmmDonut]

Originally posted by istara
No - it sounds like an awkward stage that a lot of children go through. Some may not emerge from it, and some may be more scarred by it than others. But that's life. You can't provide every child with an A1 perfect existence of beauty, riches, talent, and highschool popularity.

You can try and prevent your child from waddling to class weighing 300lb by the age of 10, eventually growing dangerous fat around its heart and vital organs, being unable to exercise, suffering from shortness of breath, hypertension, diabetes, sleep disorders, and a high risk factor for heart disease and cancer.

Saying that is comparable to some poor single parent being unable to buy their child the latest sport shoes, or encouraging their rebellious teenager to do his homework and wear deodorant - that's just laughable.

Ok, I'll agree with that. I just want to know when you think that the line will be drawn. Since parents are, inevitably, the most influential people in a child's life, nearly everything negative that occurs when that child grows up can be their fault. Obviously, everyone does not agree on what constitutes child abuse.. so how do you expect that if we, as a society, broaden the definition of child abuse, that all the instances where kids are taken from their parents will be totally reasonable?

[monstro]

Would parents of obese teenagers get into the same "trouble" as parents of obese toddlers? Say a child was of average weight until they reached 12 or 13.

I remember when I was at this age, I used to go to the candy store and buy tons of Little Debbies. I'd eat two oatmeal creme pies (the big ones) right before dinner and eat another one for dessert. I could get away with this because I was a latch key kid and there was no one there to wag their finger at me. It just so happens to that I was a skinny child, but if I had been obese would it have been my parents' fault? Even though the meals they provided for me were good and nutritious?

I guess what I'm saying is that parental responsibility isn't always clear cut, especially with older kids.

[doreen]

Obviously, everyone does not agree on what constitutes child abuse.. so how do you expect that if we, as a society, broaden the definition of child abuse, that all the instances where kids are taken from their parents will be totally reasonable?

Just want to point out that considering somethng child abuse (or more likely neglect,in the case of obesity) does not necessarily mean the removal of children.

I guess what I'm saying is that parental responsibility isn't always clear cut, especially with older kids.

It's not so clear cut, but I have to say, I personally have never seen a normal sized child suddenly become obese or even heavy at the age of 12 or 13. The truly obese children I have known (not just chubby or who have a little baby fat- the ones who don't have the energy to play with other children, or who can't take gym because of the weight) have two things in common- they were that way from a very young age, and have at least one very obese parent. Actually, I should say three things- none of them appeared to be happy. Perhaps if there had been intervention (not necessarily removal) earlier, when the parents did have more control over the over the child's diet, there would not be an obese teenager to wonder about.

[SnoopyFan]

An obese child could eventually DIE from its obesity.

True.

So can we start going after parents of teenage smokers, too?

1/3 of smokers eventually die from it, ya know ...

[norinew]

I agree that all the advertisements for junk food should probably be curbed. Also, perhaps some Public Service Anouncement type things that promote healthy eating?

The FDA is currently re-doing the food pyramid, and that may help. The way the current food pyramid reads, white bread and cereals like Cap'n Crunch and Froot Loops are the building blocks for a healthy diet. Before parents can feed their kids properly, parents and kids need to be educated on what constitutes proper nutrition.

[Evil Captor]

What I was saying is we got a slippery slope when we start calling CPS in on fat kids and their families. I imagine it's pretty damned terrifying to have government agents with the power to take your kids away from you -- with no recourse on your part -- suddenly involved in your family life. How would you like that to happen to you? Oh, that's right it never would.

You think.

Whenever you give government agencies that much power over families, you are asking for abuse, like the Georgia Tann/Tennessee Home Society scandal in which more than 5000 babies in Tennessee were stolen. Here's a link:

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/B...592/TNBMA.html

Note that Georgia Tann picked out babies who were poorly dressed or dirty or otherwise looked a little less nice than their compatriots. Be pretty easy to add obese to that list.

I agree that it's prolly a good idea to help morbidly obese kids, but hastily pulling the plug on parental rights is a very bad idea.

[PatriotX]

Ive never come across a DHS / CPs worker who didn't say thatthey had a backlog of cases, and that they were severely overworked and under-resourced. There has to be a sort of triage. Obesity takes decadess, (usually), to kill. An abusive parent can kill much more quickly.

[Fugazi]

Originally posted by IUHomer
So if a kid takes drugs or gets drunk is CPS going to be beome involved then too?

Originally posted by SnoopyFan
So can we start going after parents of teenage smokers, too?

1/3 of smokers eventually die from it, ya know ...

In the case of obese parents bringing their obese children into McDonald's, the kids really have no choice, that's why it may be considered abuse. In the above quotes, it is usually the kids doing things behind the parents back. Now if a parent was giving their kid drugs, alcohol, or cigarettes, I'd call it abuse.

[istara]

Originally posted by monstro
Would parents of obese teenagers get into the same "trouble" as parents of obese toddlers? Say a child was of average weight until they reached 12 or 13.

There would have to be some sliding scale. After all, parents aren't punished if their 13/14 year old is wandering alone at the mall, but if that was a two year old, or five year old... etc.

Obesity legislation would target parents of younger children dependent of their parents for food - ie not older ones that make some of their own dietary choices. BUT - a fourteen year old that was desperate to lose weight, and its parents refused to give it healthy alternatives, or money to buy its own food - that is a problem case.

[Mockingbird]

Originally posted by SimonX
Ive never come across a DHS / CPs worker who didn't say thatthey had a backlog of cases, and that they were severely overworked and under-resourced. There has to be a sort of triage. Obesity takes decadess, (usually), to kill. An abusive parent can kill much more quickly.

Not necessarily. Dependant on the level of obesity, it can create an early onset of type 2 diabetes, hypertension, and a host of other illnesses that can kill in far less than a decade.

[SnoopyFan]

So who of you who supports this bright idea wants to either:

1. Foot the bill for this program
or
2. Take in an obese kid after they've been yanked from their abusive parents?

Just curious.

[Gest]

Originally posted by SnoopyFan
So who of you who supports this bright idea wants to either:

1. Foot the bill for this program
or
2. Take in an obese kid after they've been yanked from their abusive parents?

Just curious.

Either one for me. I fund more ludicrous things with my taxes so paying for this would be no problem for me. I've also fostered two at-risk kids before which was one of the most trying and yet ultimately rewarding things I've ever done. Some of the obese children I've seen are at least as at-risk as the two boys we looked after and I imagine their problem would have an easier fix too. So, I'd favour the second option out of the two you offered and I fail to see how anybody could remain obese if they were under my roof. The challenge would be to ensure maintenance of the progress made after they were beyond my control of course. Same old story with fostering though.

[KellyM]

Geez, Gest, you believe in starving children to death? Better dead than fat, eh?

[lee]

When I was a teenager, one doctor told me that at 150 and 5' tall I was morbidly obese and lectured me about the consequences. He told me that I should start a diet immediately. He suggested a fairly straightforward approach of caloric restriction. I was to reduce my calories until I started to lose weight, then maintain that level. If I stopped losing weight, reduce the calories further, etc. I was to do this until I reached my target weight of 100 pounds. I nearly died doing this. One hundred pounds was, for me, an impossible target. I hit a hard plateau at 135. At that weight I was still morbidly obese. I kept reducing my calories, but instead losing weight, I just got sick. When I was finally carted into the emergency room, and another doctor pieced together the situation, she was appalled. I very well could have died. I suffered permanent consquences from that incident, and if it had gone on much longer, they would be worse. I was just lucky that the numerous times I fainted from hunger that I did not get hurt. I was actually perfectly healthy before the diet. I was qute active, had good blood pressure, and every other measurable indicator said I was healthy. Why, when I was otherwise healthy, should my life and happiness be risked by idiots who can't see beyond numbers on a scale. How much worse could that have been with the government on the first doctor's side? I have never known a government program that had rules flexible enough to deal with all reasonable situations.

This suggestion reminds me of nothing so much as that of the Magdalen Laundries. A bunch of busibodies that would ruin people's lives to save them from some perceived danger which may or may not have been real.

[Gest]

Originally posted by KellyM
Geez, Gest, you believe in starving children to death? Better dead than fat, eh?

I'm sorry if I gave that impression although I have no idea how. Did anybody else get that sort of feel upon reading what I wrote?

Kelly, I'm not sure how much understanding of physiology or sound nutrition you have, but if you think (in the case of obese children) severe caloric restriction or 'starving' is the only or even best solution, then I can only speculate as to the state of your own health.

A far better solution is usually greatly increased physical activity which has a number of benefits beyond dieting for obese kids who are often completely sedentary. It increases the basal metabolic rate, it assists in the development of gross motor skills, it's arguably better suited to allowing the kid to socialise, it's fun and it gives them a genuine appetite as opposed to the morose face stuffing whilst sitting in front of a television or console.

And with a genuine appetite, they can truly enjoy one of life's greatest pleasures; food. Lots and lots of it with regard to variety, nutritional value and yes; quantity. I definitely don't recall either of our boys 'starving'. Ponderously pushing themselves away from the table after my ex's typically massive servings of vegetarian lasagna maybe, but nope, no emaciating. And I don't recall them pining for the doughnuts and chips they'd previously gorged on (when they were fed) either.

You made a poor assumption, in the wrong direction and now I'm just waiting for you to level the accusation that I had them digging trenches and breaking rocks in our back yard whilst under the lash.

[KellyM]

Gest, read lee's post and tell me that you wouldn't have insisted that she follow the diet recommended by her to her first doctor even when it failed to cause her to lose weight below 135 pounds. At that point she was still "morbidly obese" and by your own words she would have had to lose more weight if she were to remain under your roof.

My health is not an issue in this thread, but since you mistakenly believe it's relevant, I'm 34 years old, 6'0" and 150 pounds. According to the last set of tables I looked at this puts me solidly in the middle of "normal weight", although in reality I could stand to gain another five to ten pounds.

I do not believe that caloric restriction is an generically appropriate response to childhood obesity. I do not even believe that it is a good response in the majority of cases. I strongly suspect that using caloric restriction in juveniles is just priming the pump for a lifetime of "binge and bulge" cyclical weight loss and gain, which is a great way to gain weight and harm health in the long run. I think America's current obsession with obesity is harmful and simpleminded, and that more individualized approaches to obesity needs to replace the current singleminded "fat = bad" mentality that pervades the public psyche.

Why is it so wrong to expect doctors to treat the patient, not the statistic?

[Gest]

Originally posted by KellyM
Gest, read lee's post and tell me that you wouldn't have insisted that she follow the diet recommended by her to her first doctor

I don't see where she recommends anything. The doctor OTOH, that prescribed the diet was an idiot and possibly should have been struck off for endangering her life like that. It seems bizarre based on what she wrote.

Originally posted by KellyM
At that point she was still "morbidly obese" and by your own words she would have had to lose more weight if she were to remain under your roof.

I'd like to see an independent cite calling that morbid. And based on only two simplistic measurements, I'm hesitant to even call it obese at all. You're mischaracterising what I wrote with the rest. What I meant, and clearly expressed, was that an obese child would attain a healthier weight as a matter of course by sharing in the same levels of activity that I engage in. Please do without the suggestion of duress implicit in your post.

Originally posted by KellyM
My health is not an issue in this thread, but since you mistakenly believe it's relevant...

Well actually, I don't really care. You're an adult and your health, habits and understanding of health issues are solely your own responsibility. However, I questioned your situation because you made the completely unfounded assumption that 'starving' was the only way to deal with obesity. You didn't seem to countenance that exercise could be the greater part of the solution.

Originally posted by KellyM
I do not believe that caloric restriction is an generically appropriate response to childhood obesity. I do not even believe that it is a good response in the majority of cases. I strongly suspect that using caloric restriction in juveniles is just priming the pump for a lifetime of "binge and bulge" cyclical weight loss and gain, which is a great way to gain weight and harm health in the long run.

Substantially what I said in the second and third paragraphs of my first post.

Originally posted by KellyM
I think America's current obsession with obesity is harmful and simpleminded, and that more individualized approaches to obesity needs to replace the current singleminded "fat = bad" mentality that pervades the public psyche.

I think this is a cultural issue; Americans vs rest of the world. It goes beyond the parameters of the OP but many people outside the US would say that if America has an obsession with obesity it's because America has an enormous health crisis with obesity.

Originally posted by KellyM
Why is it so wrong to expect doctors to treat the patient, not the statistic?

I never said it was and I'm sorry it seems I've struck a raw nerve with you. lee's case was almost criminally absurd and incredible. To take two figures and diagnose obesity like that is simply bad practice. But to look at a twelve year old boy with huge breasts, several chins and weighing in at ninety kg (and it is far more common in America that outside) leaves me in no doubt that intervention is vital.

[I_Eris_I]

Originally posted by KellyM
Geez, Gest, you believe in starving children to death? Better dead than fat, eh?

Umm.... where did you get that? That's not what I read at all......


~Eris~

[I_Eris_I]

Originally posted by lee
I have never known a government program that had rules flexible enough to deal with all reasonable situations.

Does that mean no government programs should exist at all? Just because some of them aren't perfect, does that mean we should do away with them altogether?

Also, the advice your doctor gave you was ridiculous. Basically starving yourself is not the way to lose weight. Increased exercise is really the way to go. With all our cars and phones and everything today, we don't get near the exercise we should, myself included.


~Eris~

[I_Eris_I]

Originally posted by Fugazi
In the case of obese parents bringing their obese children into McDonald's, the kids really have no choice, that's why it may be considered abuse. In the above quotes, it is usually the kids doing things behind the parents back. Now if a parent was giving their kid drugs, alcohol, or cigarettes, I'd call it abuse.

I agree with this. Most teens that are very obese are that way because that is how they were raised. Their parents often feed them unhealthy foods from a very young age.

Because the children are solely dependent on their parents' choices of food, then it should be considered abuse if they aren't providing appropriate things. I think giving a child only bread and water is just as abusive as feeding them pizza every night.

Once the kids are teens, and have their own money to buy the food (or cigarettes, etc. ) that they want, then it's no longer child abuse. It's only child abuse if they are dependent on the parents and the parents provide the food, cigarettes, etc.


~Eris~

[Shodan]

Is there any problem in the US at all that cannot or should not be up to the government to fix?

I'm serious. Is there anything - anything at all - about which I am entitled to tell the government to MYOB?

Regards,
Shodan

[leander]

Originally posted by Gest
I'm sorry if I gave that impression although I have no idea how. Did anybody else get that sort of feel upon reading what I wrote?

I didn't. And I don't know where the hell she got that. But I commend you on your fostering kids.

[Dob]

I think getting the govt. involved with this would be a HUGE mistake! Maybe just more education for the parents would help. And I wonder at what age do you stop holding parents responsible for something like this? Holding a parent responsible for having a obese 17yr old is a bit silly. If at 17 you dont know that eating fast food is making you fat, well, maybe we should hold the school responsible?

I wonder tho how many countries in the world would LOVE to have this problem!? To many fat kids? It truly is no wonder why America is seen as the decadent empire!!

[keithnmick]

You know what I'd like to see?
I'd like to see the nutritional information for a large portion of fries printed right there on the box. The same for a big mac. And that soda.
I don't know how you'd deal with this in more upscale restaurants but I do think education may be part of the right solution, instead of intervention.

[SnoopyFan]

I'd like to see the nutritional information for a large portion of fries printed right there on the box. The same for a big mac. And that soda.

That will deter overeating about as well as Surgeon General Warnings deter smokers.

[tracer]

Originally posted by keithnmick
I'd like to see the nutritional information for a large portion of fries printed right there on the box. The same for a big mac.

Burger King's theme song used to start with:

Hold the pickle, hold the lettuce,
Special orders don't upset us

Under your proposal, Burger King would have to print up separate nutrition facts labels for a Standard Whopper, a Whopper without pickles, a Whopper without lettuce, a Whopper without pickles or lettuce, a Whopper without lettuce but with pickles and extra ketchup, a Whopper without ketchup or onions or mayo but with extra pickle, a Whopper without ketchup or mayo but with extra pickle and with onions, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It quickly becomes a logistical nightmare.

[vasyachkin]

yes, the kids are getting messed up, but as some have pointed out they are getting messed up in many more ways then just this.

parents will always be ignorant because they are just humans, you either take away their right to raise their own children or you let them mess'em up a bit.

[Boo Boo Foo]

I suspect that at least 40% of the problem is attributable to a lack of organised sporting opportunites I'd wager.

Here in my region of Australia, we have a remarkable climate, and a great health system, and a great supply of healthy food choices - and best of all - oodles of sporting opportunites for a whole raft of different sports. You name it, triathlon, road cycling, athletics, swimming, hockey, rowing, surf lifesaving. All of these sports, besides your traditional organised team sports, allow a really wide range of physical types of people to get really involved - right at a young age.

The result? Apparently the average hieght of females in the South East Queensland region is higher than anywhere else in Australia. You should see 'em! On any day you can go for a walk in the park or visit the beach and you'll see thousands of stunningly fit, tall, statuesque young women really getting into whatever sporting persuit works for 'em. Same with guys too of course, but the female aspect of it is unusually noticeable.

There's a message there I rather think.