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  #1  
Old 08-14-2003, 09:50 AM
I_Know_Nothing I_Know_Nothing is offline
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Different version of the 10 Commandments

A sentence in a USA Today editorial states

Quote:
The First Commandment to most Christians and the Second to Jews is "thou shalt have no other God before me,".....
I also vaguely remember someone mentioning that Catholics also had a slightly different version of the ten commandments.

My questions are:

1) Are there different sets of the ten commandments for each religion/denomination?

2) If so, how did different sets of ten commandments evolve out of the same verses of Exodus?

3) What is so special about the first ten commandments as opposed to the other 621? Did the god of the Bible partition these off as more important than the others, or is this strictly man's doing?

4) I have never heard a Christian mention the 631 commandments, only Jews. Is there a discrepancy here? If so, why?
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  #2  
Old 08-14-2003, 10:18 AM
panache45 panache45 is offline
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Re: Different version of the 10 Commandments

Quote:
Originally posted by I_Know_Nothing
Did the god of the Bible partition these off as more important than the others, or is this strictly man's doing?
Well, as a matter of fact, it's all strictly man's doing.

Or are you looking for some kind of objectively verifiable facts? Good luck.
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Old 08-14-2003, 10:25 AM
AskNott AskNott is online now
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If you find a set where Number 3 is "Hi, Opal!", you've probably found the Bokononist web site.
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Old 08-14-2003, 10:31 AM
Mister Rik Mister Rik is online now
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The Ten Commandments are a summary. If you look closely, you'll see that the other 621 are all more specific examples of one Commandment or another.

Here is a comparison/contrasting of the Protestant and Catholic Ten Commandments:

Which Commandments?

The Catholic version leaves out the second commandment: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image..." in an apparent attempt to excuse all those statues of saints. To keep the list at the traditional number of Ten, the Tenth Commandment, "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house... wife... ox..." has been split into two: "9. hou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife. 10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's goods."
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  #5  
Old 08-14-2003, 10:34 AM
Mister Rik Mister Rik is online now
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*heh* I just noticed that the link I provided is to an atheist site. I guess that's okay, for our purpose here. I was just looking for a list of the two versions side by side.
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  #6  
Old 08-14-2003, 10:40 AM
astorian astorian is offline
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Whether you're Jewish, Catholic or Protestant, the commandments are exactly the same. All that changes is how they're arranged and numbered.

Catholics tend to treat "I am the Lord thy God; thou shalt not have any gods before me" and "Thou shalt not put before me a graven image" as one commandment, and call it #1. Catholics also tend to treat "Thou shalt not covet they neighbor's wife" and "Thou shalt not covet they neighbor's ox/ass/property" as two separate commandments, #9 and #10, respectively.

Protestants, however, typically treat ALL prohibitions against coveting as one commandment (#10). And they generally treat "I am the Lord thy God; thou shalt not have any gods before me" and "Thou shalt not put before me a graven image" as two different commandments (#1 and #2, respectively).
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Old 08-14-2003, 11:28 AM
Polycarp Polycarp is offline
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A couple of points: AFAIK, Catholics do not omit the "graven images" commandment, but take it as a prohibition of idolatry rather than statuary, which is why they read it together whth the "no other gods before Me" passage that immediately precedes it.

Second, the Decalogue (Ten Commandments taken as a Bible passage) are repeated at the end of the 40 years in the Wilderness. The first giving of them is three months after the actual Exodus from Egypt, and is recounted in Exodus 20:1-17. 40 years later, when the Israelites have arrived in Transjordania and are preparing to cross the Jordan into the Holy Land, Moses does a loooong sermon on all the stuff God's taught them, and begins it by reiterating theTen Commandments, with slight wording changes amplifying the original set, in Deuteronomy 5:1-21.

The (abridged) Episcopal listing of them in traditonal language (begins at bottom of page, continues onto next page) and modern language.
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Old 08-14-2003, 11:30 AM
Fuji Kitakyusho Fuji Kitakyusho is offline
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"I now present the fifteen..."

[~CRASH~]

"...uh,... TEN commandments."


(Moses was a bit on the clumsy side).
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  #9  
Old 08-14-2003, 02:20 PM
istara istara is offline
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Jesus revised the ten commandments into just two:

Love thy neighbour, love thy God.

That for me is the essence of all religion - or if you omit the God part - humanitarianism/loving atheism.

Much easier than remembering if it's your neighbour's goat or pig you're not supposed to covet.
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Old 08-14-2003, 02:51 PM
I_Know_Nothing I_Know_Nothing is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by istara
Jesus revised the ten commandments into just two:

Love thy neighbour, love thy God.
Where in the Bible does he say that?
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  #11  
Old 08-14-2003, 03:04 PM
NFlanders NFlanders is offline
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Matt 22:37-39
37: Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38: This is the first and great commandment.
39: And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
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Old 08-14-2003, 08:22 PM
MonkeyMensch MonkeyMensch is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by NFlanders
Matt 22:37-39
37: Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38: This is the first and great commandment.
39: And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Nicely put, Ned.

I've always regarded them as the Eleven Commandments in order to fully accommodate my Catholic upbringing. After all, the magic number 'ten' does not appear in the Bible to characterize this aspect of the law.
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  #13  
Old 08-15-2003, 01:51 AM
moriah moriah is offline
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Dividing the commandments of the tablets into a set of a nice round number of 10 was a later development. They could have just as easily been divided into 9 or 11 distinct commandments.

Jesus' summary of the two greatest commandments comes from other places of the giving of the law of Moses in Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18.

If you want be a smart-ass, the next time your minister or Sunday school teacher asks you for the 10 commandments, give them the two that Jesus used and quote Mt 22:40 "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

Peace.
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Take two tablets and call me in the morning of a new age. -God.
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  #14  
Old 08-15-2003, 06:44 AM
ambushed ambushed is offline
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Contrary to many claims here, there ARE two very different versions of the so-called Ten Commandments, and those people who prefer the first and most popular version are defying God Himself!

All you Judeo-Christian believers out there -- including that judge who refuses to remove the superseded Ten Commandments from his courthouse -- should be honoring the Decalogue Mark II.

Let's read our Bibles, shall we? And learn how -- just like of Joseph Smith and the first 116 original pages of the BoM -- God apparently had a "senior moment", forgot the contents of the original Decalogue, and was forced to fabricate (in both senses of the word) the Ten Commandments Mark II from a surprisingly imperfect memory for a reputedly All-Knowing Deity.

Let's start with Exodus 34, Verses 1-4 (from the RSV):
Quote:
The LORD said to Moses, "Cut two tables of stone like the first; and I will write upon the tables the words that were on the first tables, which you broke.

Be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning to Mount Sinai, and present yourself there to me on the top of the mountain.

No man shall come up with you, and let no man be seen throughout all the mountain; let no flocks or herds feed before that mountain."

So Moses cut two tables of stone like the first; and he rose early in the morning and went up on Mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand two tables of stone.
The setting has now been established. Because Moses smashed the tablets of the Ten Commandments Mark I, God told him to come back and He would (and I quote verbatim): "write upon the tables the words that were on the first tables". In other words, the Bible reports that Mark II was going to be an exact copy of the original set. But as we compare the two which have been passed down to us, it seems that God was either fibbing or He had forgotten the contents of the original, for in verses 11-28 we see the new, revised and improved Ten Commandments, which seem rather different from the first set! (I have embedded the Commandment numbers in the text):
Quote:
"Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I will drive out before you the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Per'izzites, the Hivites, and the Jeb'usites.

[1]: Take heed to yourself, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither you go, lest it become a snare in the midst of you.

You shall tear down their altars, and break their pillars, and cut down their Ashe'rim

(for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God),

lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and when they play the harlot after their gods and sacrifice to their gods and one invites you, you eat of his sacrifice,

and you take of their daughters for your sons, and their daughters play the harlot after their gods and make your sons play the harlot after their gods.

[2]: "You shall make for yourself no molten gods.

[3]: "The feast of unleavened bread you shall keep. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the time appointed in the month Abib; for in the month Abib you came out from Egypt.

[4]: All that opens the womb is mine, all your male cattle, the firstlings of cow and sheep.

The firstling of an ass you shall redeem with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its neck. All the first-born of your sons you shall redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.

[5]: "Six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; in plowing time and in harvest you shall rest.

[6]: And you shall observe the feast of weeks, the first fruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

[7]: Three times in the year shall all your males appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel.

For I will cast out nations before you, and enlarge your borders; neither shall any man desire your land, when you go up to appear before the LORD your God three times in the year.

[8]: "You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left until the morning.

[9]: The first of the first fruits of your ground you shall bring to the house of the LORD your God.

[10]: You shall not boil a kid in its mother's milk."

And the LORD said to Moses, "Write these words; in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel."

And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
I hope it would not be seen as idle boasting to report proudly that I have never violated the Second or Tenth Commandments!

But I'm a little worried about God's memory. Perhaps He was suffering from early onset Alzheimer's or something?


So many right-wing religious folks are so publicly adamant about not only living by, but also posting the Ten Commandments in public schools and courthouses. Yet they clearly don't even know what they really say! Perhaps we should all try to do a better job of getting the True Word out... Keep those kids away from their mother's boiling milk, and don't forget to "redeem" (sacrifice?) your first-born sons!
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Old 08-15-2003, 06:50 AM
ambushed ambushed is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by MonkeyMensch
After all, the magic number 'ten' does not appear in the Bible to characterize this aspect of the law.
Yes, it does. See my post, above.
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  #16  
Old 08-15-2003, 08:13 AM
rsa rsa is online now
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Quote:
Originally posted by astorian
"Thou shalt not covet they neighbor's .../ass/..."
I can't covet my neighbor's ass? I'm so screwed.

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  #17  
Old 08-15-2003, 08:30 AM
tomndebb tomndebb is offline
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There are three places where it says the God handed Moses ten commandments: Exodus 34:28 and Deuteronomy 4:13 and Deuteronomy 10:4.

There are two places where those ten commandments are listed, without being "named" the ten commandments and without having numbers assigned to each commandment: Exodus 20:1 - 7 and Deteronomy 5:6 - 21.

Since the tradition of the "ten" is separate from the enumeration, there is a little bit of latitude in how the ten are reckoned.
The three traditional numbering systems are as follows (number 1 makes the most logical sense):

The division of the Commandments (with some supporters of each list):

__I.
- Philo of Alexandria, Jewish philosopher (ca. 10 BCE - 50 CE)
- (Flavius) Josephus, Jewish historian (fl. 1st Century CE)
- Greek Fathers of the Church
- Modern Orthodox Churches
- Reformed Protestant Churches

01. Prohibition of false or foreign gods
02. Prohibition of images
03. Prohibition on vain use of Divine name
04. Honor Sabbath
05. Honor parents
06. Prohibition of murder
07. Prohibition of adultery
08. Prohibition of theft
09. Prohibition of false witness
10. Prohibition of covetousness

_II.
- Clement of Alexandria, Christian theologian (150 - 215?)
- Origen, Christian theologian (ca. 185 - 254)
- Augustine of Hippo, Christian theologian (354 - 430)
- Modern Catholic Church
- Evangelical/Lutheran Protestant Churches

01. Prohibition of false or foreign gods and images
02. Prohibition on vain use of Divine name
03. Honor Sabbath
04. Honor parents
05. Prohibition of murder
06. Prohibition of adultery
07. Prohibition of theft
08. Prohibition of false witness
09. Prohibition of coveting neighbor's wife
10. Prohibition of coveting neighbor's goods

III.
- Modern Judaism

01. "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage."
02. Prohibition of false or foreign gods and images
03. Prohibition on vain use of Divine name
04. Honor Sabbath
05. Honor parents
06. Prohibition of murder
07. Prohibition of adultery
08. Prohibition of theft
09. Prohibition of false witness
10. Prohibition of covetousness
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  #18  
Old 08-15-2003, 09:47 AM
Scuba_Ben Scuba_Ben is offline
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The Jewish division of the Decalogue splits very nicely into two groups of five laws.

#1 - 5 are duties between Man and Divine. Or if you will, between Citizen and State. (Technically, IMnshO, #1 is a declaration of authority.) These rules cover issues of respect for the authority and disrespecting the authority (aka "treason").

#6 - 10 are duties between Man and Man. These five rules are the basis of any decent society. When they are repeated in Deut. 5, they are linked by "And." The standard commentary (probably by Rashi) is that if someone commits one of those offenses, they're likely to commit some of the others as well.

ambushed, I've seen a commentary addressing the theory you described, of a "replacement" Decalogue. The commentary stated that the originator of that theory eventually disavowed it. I'm not sure if this commentary was in the Hertz or the Etz Hayiim edition of the chumash; I'll check and get back to you.

(A chumash is a book containing the text of the Torah, divided into its 54 weekly readings, each with the appropriate portion from the Prophets, and frequently with commentaries. I forget the English equivalent, as "Bible" isn't sufficiently precise. Zev, what word do you use?)
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  #19  
Old 08-15-2003, 11:21 AM
Olive, The Other Reindeer Olive, The Other Reindeer is offline
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Well, as Brainbeau once said . . .

"The problem with the world is that people don't follow the 15 commandments - especially the last 5"
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