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#1
08-18-2003, 11:37 PM
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What do prisoners deserve?
I've been wondering about this ever since an IMHOthread a few weeks ago.
What do prisoners deserve? Let's assume we're talking about people who have been convicted of a crime (could be money laundering, murder, or burglary). They are in prison for however long. Are they only entitled to food and basic shelter? What about: Mail (limited in quantity?) TV? Hot meals? Books (for entertainment, not legal)? Exercise? Socializing (time with other inmates)? Temperature control (heat in the winter, AC in the summer)? Family visits? Magazines and newspapers? Elective medical proceedures? What else? How much is too much? Is their only punnishment meant to be denial of freedom, or is denial of comforting goods part of the deal too? Should there extras (like TV) be determined by the judge as part of the sentance, or by the prison warden? 
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#2
08-18-2003, 11:51 PM
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Re: What do prisoners deserve?
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However, I don't think that air-conditioning is essential, or even desirable. Frankly, prison should not be a nice, comfortable place. It should be a safe, humane place, but not a pleasant one.
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#3
08-19-2003, 12:15 AM
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This post reflects the true problem of the prison system, NOBODY knows that its supposed to be. I fear your post will break down into a circular argument by three people: one says prison is meant to reform hence everything should be as nice as possible, one says its meant to isolate so things should be okay, the last wants vengeance involving the worst of conditions imaginable. And it just goes to show that we have no idea what to do with criminals of any sort.
To answer your original question though, I think prison should be as uncomfortable as practical in the hopes it acts as a deterrent. But in the US people serve consecutive sentences and many people will be in jail for the 70 or so years they have left to live. Should jail be the same for a 20 year old child rapist as it is for the 90 year old...
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#4
08-19-2003, 12:15 AM
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Mail: Yes. They are entitled to Mail.
TV: Perhaps. Perhaps Limited channels, (i.e. not movie channels) Hot Meals: What is this, the Gulag? Of course they get hot meals. Books: YES! Reading is good for the mind and the spirit, and even if they aren't being formally educated, it is a good thing to read. Exercise: This is dicey. Weightlifting makes them all the more impressive and intimidating when they get out, but to deny them exercise is to invite all sorts of health problems, and the taxpayer will inevitably groan about having to pay for them. Socializing: Are you nuts? You would be if you spent your entire prison sentence devoid of human contact. Temperature Control: Heat? Again, what is this, the Gulag? Air Conditioning? Depends on the climate. Family Visits should be a privledge(sp?). Magazines and newspapers should be a part of education. I firmly believe that a lack of education is a contributing factor to crime, and think all inmates who have not completed high school should have to earn a high school equivalent diploma as a condition of their release. Elective Medical Procedures: Unless it is voluntary castration for sex offenders, I think that's ludicrous.
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#5
08-19-2003, 12:38 AM
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I think Benthames outlined my point of view pretty well. I would elaborate that privileges should be earned in prison for good behavior. It really makes no sense to talk about what "prisoners" deserve. It all depends on how serious their crime was and whether or not they are making an effor to rehabilitate themselves. One size does not fit all.
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#6
08-19-2003, 12:44 AM
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Mail: Letters only. No magazines.
TV: Educational channels only. History Channel. TLC. Discovery, etc. Hot meals: One per day. Cereal for breakfast, sandwich at lunch. No special meals due to religion. Books: Those approved by a board. Exercise: Aerobic. No weights. Socializing: At exercise and meals. Temperature Control: Blankets in the winter, fans in the summer. Family visits: One hour per week. No contact. Magazines and newspapers: No magazines. Mainstream newspapers once a week. Elective medical procedures: None. Come in without a high school diploma? Don't leave until you get your GED. Don't have a trade skill? We'll train you (welding, plumbing, mechanics, HVAC, etc). Don't speak English? Don't leave until you do. Non-citizen? When your sentence is up, back to your country of origin. Medical problems? Treatment as needed. Found in possesion of drugs or weapons? Term is doubled. No smoking. Everyone works 12 hours per day. Two inmates per cell. Two phone calls per week. Assault a guard? Deadly force is authorized. Attack a fellow inmate? Term is doubled. Shower every other day. Hair no longer than 1/2 inch. Prisoners wear orange jumpsuits. No radios. Lights out 9 PM. No talking after 9 PM. In short: Get an education, learn a trade, keep your yap shut and your nose clean.
__________________
Texas: It's bigger than France!
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#7
08-19-2003, 12:44 AM
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I don't think that anyone seriously considering a felony is actually "scared" of doing time. Sure, they try to escape the law with every last breath, but they know that they'll eventually get out. Reformation is a relatively uncommon thing, either because the really bad guys die in jail, or the ones that learned their lesson are so few and far between. If going to prison doesn't absolutely scare the shit out of you, you might not think twice about holding up that liquor store. I say, bring back the "chain gangs" so to speak. Make 'em do something useful, maybe boring and repetitive, and I did say make. Some people live better in prison than outside it, how is this a deterent? The prison system is truly fucked. Fixing it will most likely require something drastic. Maybe if prison were renamed "the forcible sodomy hell-house"? Just kidding.
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#8
08-19-2003, 01:09 AM
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It would be very hard, Buck the Diver to get an education if you are working 12 hours a day. Lights out at 9 PM? When would education be? At 6 AM? If you work from 9 AM to 9PM? or wake up at five, instruction until 7:55, work at 8 am, (breakfast those five minutes between)? I don't get it. Please explain your schedule more.
Your complete lack of religious tolerance is also offputting to me. Religion (or at least a belief in God) can be helpful in reforming an individual. I don't understand. Part of you wants to reform the individual (with education) but part of you wants to break their spirit. Killing a prisoner on the floor of a cell block sends only one message. YOUR LIFE IS CHEAP, AND WE WON'T BOTHER WITH YOU. If that happenned, you would have an Attica on your hands in a matter of minutes. Please explain how you can be for reform and outright punishment at the same time.
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#9
08-19-2003, 01:17 AM
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My attitude toward prisoners' rights in general is shaped by the same feelings as is my attitude toward the death penalty. Things like...
- The justice system is not and cannot be infallible - Anybody, no matter how rotten, has a chance of becoming a better person. It might just be a vanishingly SMALL chance. - Punishment for its own sake is morally repugnant. If a punishment does not help the community or individual affected to recover from the wrongs committed, if it does not prevent the criminal from committing further crimes, and if it does not deter other criminals, it has no legitimate purpose. The worry that some prisoners might be innocent means, in my opinion, that all prisoners need at least limited access to their lawyers and law books, and that full efforts should be made to keep them physically and mentally healthy. (Or to get them to that point.) This means decent, healthy food, necessary medical care, exercise, and proper heating and cooling for the climate and for individual health needs. The idea that it's possible for even really awful people to improve themselves leads me to favor educational and skill-development programs. And I've never seen a POINT to forbidding books, magazines, newspapers, and contact with family. As for tv and socializing, anything that keeps them docile. Qadgop has to spend his days with these people, ya know. And on preview... First, regarding mandatory educational achievements before leaving prison - many of those who are imprisoned are, while mentally able to comprehend what they've done, may not be intellectually capable of completing their GED, or at least not of completing it quickly. While perhaps the completion of a GED or training program could be considered as evidence that someone was ready to enter the outside world, keeping someone in prison indefinitely because of a mental deficiency is Just Not Right. Second, regarding no special meals due to religion - I can't help but see this as punishing people for being religious. And having regard for spiritual laws and for the universe outside oneself is just the sort of thing we want to discourage among our prisoners, right? Third, on temperature control - at least in the northern United States, blankets are not enough to provide adequate protection from the cold in the winter. And all in all, heating is way cheaper than treating an endless parade of hypothermia, frostbite, and any number of cold-related things.
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#11
08-19-2003, 02:04 AM
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One interesting thing about this thread is seeing what people see as a "right" or a "privilege," something oft debated in the abstract on this board. Buck the Diver, for example, apparently sees the practicing of religion as a privilege, much as other see health care or housing.
I think having context like this is sometimes more useful than just talking about a bunch of issues and discussing them in general terms.
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#12
08-19-2003, 02:07 AM
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In regard to the question of access to TV, magazines, newspapers etc. The world is changing at an unbelievably fast pace. A person who was imprisoned twenty years ago wouldn't have a clue about the current reality if they didn't have some access to the media.
E-mail, CD's, CG imaging, all these things would be uncomprehendable to a man who had been isolated for a couple of decades. If we plan to eventually release a prisoner, he or she must know the world they're about to re-enter. As far as the education question goes, how about a special certificate that states a prisoner has completed the highest level that they are capable of? Perhaps a Level 1, 2 or 3 certificate with a notation that the Warden has been satisfied with the prisoners achievement?
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#13
08-19-2003, 05:19 AM
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What do prisoners deserve?
Basic health care (no electives) Food and shelter (an Arizona Sheriff was housing county prisoners in tents and feeding them bologna sandwiches 3 times a day. I got no problem with that, but I got no problem with them cooking the food either) A Library with newspapers and a strict access-controlled computer (they have a right to know what's going on in the world, especially if it may pertain to their case) Mail and visitors, within certain limitations (we can't hole them away, never to be seen again) Exercise (needed for health) Being able to practice their religion with certain limitations (no sacrificing live chickens are the like) And that's it, IMO.
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#14
08-19-2003, 07:25 AM
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What prisoners DESERVE and what they SHOULD GET are two different things.
You can obviously argue that prisoners deserve absolutely nothing excpet to be kept safe and to be released when their sentence runs out. So, lock them in a room with no outside contact, no books or TV, nothing they can hang themselves with, and give them nutritionally balanced gruel three times a day. However, that's a recipe for creating psychopaths. What they SHOULD get is substantially more humane. I realize some people think prison's a big Club Fed kind of place, but it is nothing of the sort; it's an absolute nightmare, even with TVs and Nautilus machines. You could return prisons to a barbaric, 19th-century type of institution, but they changed them because it wasn't working. It is not a coincidence that the world's richest and SAFEST countries do not place their prisoners in dungeons in shackles. (There may be an exception, but it's generally true.) I would love for someone to show me that especially cruel prisons make for less crime, 'cause I don't see the connection. Contrary to what some have said, a great many convicts do go straight after their incarceration. It's worth trying to help them be better citizens, because it can and does work.
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#15
08-19-2003, 08:13 AM
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Prisoners don't deserve squat. Give them a "safe" place and that is that.
I think there should be ONE non-denominational church service on Sundays and if they want to practice religon let them do it in this forum. There are so many religions (and some prisoners invent their own) so to keep it to one type serves the purpose. They should be able to get their high school education but not to go to college. It is not fair that I as a single parent am struggling to send my daughter to college. A child that has never broken the law. I can't find grant money to get her there yet my tax dollars pay for prisoners to get their degrees in jail. They should have access to mail. There should be a library. No tv. This is a privaledge No smoking. This is a privaledge No sports equipment. This is a privaledge They should be taught a trade in jail. This would rehabilitate those that can be and want to be. They should get "basic" medical treatment no elective care. Why should my tax dollars pay for this. It's not fair that I have to pay for insurance premiums and co-pays and they are offered free care.
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#16
08-19-2003, 08:24 AM
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A note about the internet: In my state, inmates are not allowed access to any potential communication device other than the telephone. Thus, internet access is strictly prohibited. My husband works in a prison, and he wasn't even allowed to bring in his PalmPilot because it was capable of accessing the internet.
The problem with a lack of privledges is that you have no "carrot." Ever heard of SuperMax prisons? My husband used to work in one. Inmates stay in tiny cells 23 hours per day. They only came out if cuffed at the hands and feet. These guys had no privledges to speak of, and it made them very difficult to control. They had nothing to lose by their bad behavior. The best means of punishing a prisoner for his misbehavior is the removal of privledges, and that's why it's so important for them to have privledges in the first place. What else are you going to do? Beat them? Buck The Diver's solution of doubling an inmate's sentance is only effective if the guy is in there for the short-term. What do you do with a lifer?
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#17
08-19-2003, 08:34 AM
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My feeling is that prisons' primary functions should be to
1) punish people for the things they have done 2) reduce crime in society at large Not necessarily in that order. I'm one of those bleeding-heart types who would like to see fewer people being raped, mugged, killed and robbed in society in general. So I am for anything that works in that respect. I think the obvious thing to do is to work hard at making sure prisoners don't kill, rape, mug or rob once they get out. My tought would be to specify certain prisons as experimental prisons where various techniques to reduce recidivism are tried out. Maybe some are humane, maybe some aren't so humane, but what the hell, try several things in several different prisons, keep stats on the activities of prisoners released from the various programs and then GO WITH WHAT WORKS. Sure, it'd take time, but an ongoing program like this has a hope of eventually producing a prison regiment that would turn out former inmates who won't do further harm. Sure beats the hell out of the silly debates I see here.
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#18
08-19-2003, 12:05 PM
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All right here it is straight from a Texas Department of Criminal Justice(TDCJ) Correctional Officer. Note, I only skimmed the last few posts, but reading your posts won't change my views.
I am called a Correctional Officer(CO) instead of prison guard because as a CO it is my duty to maintain discipline and discipline is what will correct an offender's bahaviour. Therefore, in Texas, no one is called a prison guard anymore, we're all COs. In TDCJ, offenders get cable tv, but they have no controls for them to manipulate. If they want the channel changed they must ask the CO working that cellblock and at his earliest convenience, he'll go get the remote from the front of the building and then go back to change the channel. No premium channels and if the offenders trick a newer officer into putting it on a premium channel, they'll go about making the picture less fuzzy once the officer leaves. For that, I've seen Seargents remove the power cable from the tv and take it with them to the desk at the front of the building and no tv for the rest of the day. They get mail from anybody but can only write to those on their approved visitors list, anyone they need for legal reasons, or publications for subscription. Offenders may not receive any pornographic material other than "softcore". They do socialize. They socialize at work(they have to have jobs unless they're custody level doesn't allow it), in the dayroom(their cellblock area), in the recreation yard, and in the chow halls. They get phone calls, though I don't know the policy on that. The only electronic property they are allowed is a fan, a lamp, a "hot pot" for coffee and such, a radio, and a typewriter. All other property, including commissary items(more on that below) must fit in their locker which is one and a half cubic feet. Depending on their custody level or disciplinary restrictions, the get commissary. Commissary is basically their convience store and is run only on weekends. Depending on custody level they get to spend so and so amount of money there every two weeks. It is also where they buy their electronic equipment and mailing materials. Visitation: On saturday and Sunday from 0800 to 1700 offenders may recieve one visit from however many people for two hours for each day. However, if the visitors have to come from a very long way and their ability to visit is severely crippled, the warden may approve a four hour visit. Visitation have two categories: Contact Visit and Regular Visit. Contact Visit is only for those who behave themselves and they get to sit at a table with their visitors instead of being seperated by the glass. They get a quick hug and kiss at the start of the visit and a quick hug and kiss at the end. Then, they may sit across from the table and hold hands if they wish and that is all the contact between offenders and free-worlders that they get. Anything else results in that person being taken off the offender's approved visitation list. Regular Visits are the ones you see in movies where they're seperated by glass and talking on the phone. Visitors may buy candy and sodas and such at the vending machines for the offender but they must use an officer as a go between and the officer must recieve the snacks unopened lest some smuggling be going on. Visitors are not allowed to bring cash and only forty dollars in change is allowed at a visit. Offenders are not allowed to smoke or drink. Officers can be fired for accidentally brinking ciggarrettes onto the unit. Smuggling of narcotics, ciggarrettes, or alcohol is always punished by an immediate discharge, and now felony charges. There's a lot of dirty bosses out there and these days, they're becoming the offenders. As for recreation and the rec yard, it depends on your custody level. Close custody never gets rec other than being allowed in the dayroom, and Administrative Segregation offenders are allowed into a small, caged-in dayroom, or a small, caged in excercise yard with one basketball and one basketball hoop. Ad Seg offenders are always by themselves with the only socialization being to yell at each other through their cell doors. Minimum and Medium Custody offenders have a large outside rec yard(fenced in) with a full basketball court and one (only one) of those home excercise machines for lifting weights. There's always a cement wall for them to play wallball and such. Due to their constitutional rights, all religions are recognized and allowed. The only church services given are those the unit can acquire, though all who wish to attend may do so, unless your custody level is too high meaning you're too dangerous to attend. And even if you're religion is recognized and allowed practice, that doesn't mean you'll get everything you want. They're not allowed animals or the tools to sacrifice them with, but they keep asking for them. I say all religions, but right now, TDCJ only recognized like some 200. Climate Control: There is none. The only climate control is in the medical wing, the administrative building, the Officer's Dining Room, and the cellblock pickets(though those are never fixed if they break down). It's hot during the summer, but that's why the windows are made to open. All offender's electrical property must remain inside the cell, so if we don't have enough of those huge fans to go around, then the only circulation they get is from the dayroom windows. In winter, because of all the heat generated by so many people, climate control is not needed inside the cellblock. And before you complain about it being unfair, the officers suffer just as much as the offenders. Rack up is at 2230 unless it's a late rack which takes place on the weekends and I think holidays. Late rack is at 0000(midnight). Offenders have control of their own cell lights unless the cellblock officer needs them turned on by the picket officer for count and such. Unless their custody level is too high, offenders are always assigned jobs, even if there isn't a vacancy, they'll be working. They work eight hours a day. If so desired, they may get their education or learn a vocation and I think that over-rides a job unless education or vocation can be scheduled around it. Yes, we have offenders working nights and they do get up awfully early for class. Three meals a day. That's their civil rights. Though, if we're sending them to chow and we notice they're not complying with grooming standards, unless they have a medical pass for whatever, we don't let them go until they go back to their cell and correct the problem. If they refuse to correct the problem, then on a technicality they refuse to go to chow and we don't get in trouble. During Institutional Lockdown or Temporary Suspension of Activity, we'll take cold food to their cells. Close Custody and Ad Seg get hot plates taken to their cells. We're legally obligated to give them free medical service. The medical wing is basically a miniature hospital including emergency room, though they can be taken to an actual hospital. The State is their insuruance provider. Medical wing also has full dentist capabilites with dentists. There is a library for them, and a seperate Legal Library as well. As for reforming them, that's what the discipline is all about. If they act up in prison, the COs write the case and the Disciplinary Hearing Officer decides the punishment, including taking away phone calls, in cell restriction, or taking away other privileges. Major Cases can result in a custody level change, but Minor Cases never will. If they act nicely long enough they can move donw the custody level to minimum custody. Our reformation is in educating them, teaching them vocations, or just teaching them responsibility by making them work. Also, if they learn discipline inside, they'll keep it once they get back outside to the free world. However, a lot of them just serve their sentence and go back to being their usual selves. Even inside prison they keep playing their games. Manipulating officers into smuggling things in for them, running prison gangs(which are much more dangerous and intelligent than street gangs. We're talking actual gang constitutions here), extortion, prostitution, and just acting a fool. Even those that go to church services don't have my trust. None of them do. Even if some of them are innocent, you can't tell because they act exactly like all the other damn inmates. Of course, I work at a maximum security unit(one of the two most natorious in the State) so all I ever experience are the really bad guys. Even the minimum custody offenders act all hard and are playing their games here. Psychopachik Vampire
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#19
08-20-2003, 12:16 AM
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And from New York:
TV: All facilities have TV. The inmates have a collective recreation fund (no taxpayer money). If they can afford it, they can have satellite, cable, VCR's, DVD's. They pay a higher institutional rate in most cases like hospitals or hotels. Some facilities allow inmates to buy personal TV's. TV is a privilege that can be revoked for poor behavior. Mail: Pretty much any correspondence allowed in. Restrictions on photos and inmate to inmate mail. Inmates are allowed to receive some items through mail order or family packages with a number of regulations on what's allowed. Inmates cannot join book or music clubs. Magazines, books, music, etc are subject to a media review committee. CD's are not allowed. Socializing: Pretty much open. "See your friends in the yard" is the cliched warning when inmates are hanging out talking where they shouldn't be. Phone calls: Access to phones in most housing units and yards. Only collect calls can be made to people on their approved list. No third party calls. All calls are subject to monitoring. Property: Pretty much the same as above. Commissary: Ours run on weekdays. They have to fill out an order form and turn it in a day ahead of time. The products are mostly food, cosmetic items, and stamps. Visitation: Most facilities have weekend and holiday visits. The length of the visits usually depends on how many people show up; when the visit room is full the first to arrive have to leave for the new arrivals. Most visits are contact visits (sitting around a table). Only inmates who've created problems on visits are restricted to non-contact visits. Inmates can request a non-contact visit if they wish to avoid being strip frisked at the end of their visit. Cigarettes: NY law prohibits smoking inside a prison building. Which has made yard rec much more popular. Rec: Day rooms and yards as in the above post. Rec privileges can be lost for poor behavior. Religion: All religious beliefs are allowed. Religous practices however may be regulated. NY recognizes a number of religions (but not 200!). Offhand: Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Nation of Islam, Buddhist, Hindu, Santeria, Longhouse, Rastafarian, Jehovah's Witness. Inmates generally must be a registered member of a religion to practice that religion. Climate control: Heat in the winter (which is more of an issue in NY than Texas I'm sure). Cooling in the summer is mostly windows and fans. There are a few areas with AC's but mostly offices. No inmate housing has AC. Everybody has a job. Anyone who doesn't have a high school diploma has to go to school until he gets one. Generally three meals a day, although some facilities have a two meal schedule on weekends. Inmates in NY will not be denied a meal for things like grooming because meals are a right. Medical care is like the above. Free medical, dental, psychiatric. No elective procedures allowed. Our discipline system works fairly similarly. There's a rulebook (English/SPanish) with about a hundred rules in it. If an inmate breaks a rule the employee files a written report describing what happened and citing the rule. The inmate gets to read the report and state his defense at a hearing. Discipline is generally loss of privileges for a specified length of time. However, we rarely consider discipline as a form in rehabilitation in NY. It's regarded as a form of control to keep problems for happening and correcting behavior inside the facility. There are numerous rehabilitative programs offered but they're seperate from the disciplinary syatem. The consensus (as well as my personal opinion) is nobody can rehabilitate an inmate except the inamte himself. All we can do is offer him an opportunity.
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#20
08-20-2003, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
In order to complete some programs, the inmate must admit his guilt. A lot of inmates refuse to do so, either because of the reason above, or because they fear it may jeapordize their chances for successful appeal. Aside from that problem, there's also the fact that many programs are woefully understaffed. There's simply no way to give each individual the attention that he needs to make the program effective, given the enormous case loads.
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#21
08-20-2003, 08:20 AM
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Re: What do prisoners deserve?
Quote:
They have to eat...feed 'em in the cells. They want to excercise? Let 'em do push-ups. Visitors from the outside? That's fine. But I think the standard should be, no prisoner to prisoner interaction at all. I see very little good that can come of such a thing, and a lot of bad.
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#22
08-20-2003, 08:40 AM
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Re: Re: What do prisoners deserve?
Quote:
Secondly, most prisons are not set up for isolating each inmate. The one in which my husband works is dormitary-style. Hundreds of prisoners sleep in one large room with bunk beds. To retro-fit this prison with individual cells, sinks and toilets would be astronomically expensive. Third, prsions currently use isolation or "the hole" as a means of punishment. How do you punish a man who has no privledges?
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#23
08-20-2003, 08:45 AM
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Little Nemo and Psycho_Pachik Vampire have done a great job of explaining how prisoners are currently treated in Texas and New York, and I'd like to thank them for such illuminating posts. I was also wondering if they think this is how prisoners SHOULD be treated -- or do you see any flaws in the system that could use fixing?
I also don't think either program described addresses rehabilitation issues with any real rigor, though New York's seems slightly ahead in that regard.
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#24
08-20-2003, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
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#25
08-20-2003, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
I can see the frustration that a man who has been wrongly imprisoned must feel in a situation like that. It really is one of those damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't quandries. However, most inmates claim to be innocent. Making an exception for every single one of them is not feasible.
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#26
08-20-2003, 09:32 AM
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Prison is a punishment meant to take away freedom. Confinement is the punishment. Allowing prisoners to watch television or socialize in some way is keeping them human, relative to those of us that remain free, because a great number of these humans will be free again.
If prison is easy for some people, it isn't because we're doing it wrong, but because their lives are so fucked up that their freedom to act on their wills is reduced to the point of not being a great difference from prison. All they lose is regular contact with people they know. Think about giving up your freedom, your job, contact with your family and friends and significant other. Think of giving up your material possessions that can't be taken up by the people you know (after all, you can't pay for storage forever, you don't have a job!). Think of giving up your freedom. Does the ability to play basketball with people you don't even know and watch television really replace all that? If so, then we know the prudent course for all college-bound students is to go to jail and get a free education.  For people who think it isn't so bad to be in prison, what must their lives be like? IMO prison is more or less where it should be, but I think that prisoners need a way to earn and save money to make an easier transition back into society.
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#27
08-20-2003, 09:48 AM
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#28
08-20-2003, 09:50 AM
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#29
08-20-2003, 09:54 AM
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I appreciate the view, Evil Captor, but I don't see how a justice system is supposed to adjust its chosen punishments based on the idea that it can make mistakes. Rather the focus should be on recognizing and compensating for those mistakes than changing the punishments.
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#30
08-20-2003, 10:20 AM
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Regarding the OP. Why on Earth shouldn't prisioners get access to legal books?
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#31
08-20-2003, 11:53 AM
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I think the what the OP meant to say by "for entertainment, not legal" was "of course we have to give them access to law books and legal materials, but should we give them access to books for entertainment only?"
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#32
08-20-2003, 05:14 PM
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but not only is the death penalty pretty hard to take back if you make a mistake, but it also, IMHO, adversely impacts those who are NOT guilty.The recent study of a state where an extremely large number of those on death row were wrongly convicted (as in, at least whopiing administrative errors if not outright innocence,) MIGHT lead one to believe that an extremely large proportion of our criminals, even those destined for the final punishment, are not guilty. I, however, wouldn't take it that far. I would, however, hypothesize that people who are NOT guilty are, in the sentencing phase, are less likely to seem contrite and sorry for what they "did", since it their case, they did nothing. Therefore, the jury and or judge tends to throw the book at them and disproportionately apply the death penalty. So, the death penalty AND selective programs based on admission of guilt are both instances of way the justice system skews in favor of the actually guilty, punishing the innocent.
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#33
08-20-2003, 05:38 PM
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Corrections professionals cannot make a personal judgement on whether or not the inmate is truly guilty. They are not investigators or court officials, and, most of the time, do not know the full details of the case. They must accept the judgement of the state and treat the inmate accordingly. Prison staff should not be second-guessing the court system and deciding that, for example, an inmate doesn't need a program because they feel he's not guilty. I'm sure many of them have a hard time with it, and may secretly feel that a certain conviction wasn't justified, but they must follow the rules. Prison is not a place in which exceptions can be made. It's dangerous to do so.
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#35
08-20-2003, 09:33 PM
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Some sobering stats about prisons and prisoners:
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But "one out of 143" scares the hell out of me. And they're building more prisons.
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#36
08-20-2003, 10:22 PM
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#37
08-20-2003, 10:34 PM
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Lack of freedom is something you simply cannot fathom unless you've experienced it. I'm not talking about a night in the county drunk tank, I'm talking about many months or years of having your freedom taken away. I was one of the lucky ones. First time, non-violent drug offense. Twenty-one months courtesy of Uncle Sam. Fifteen months in prison, four months in a halfway house, and two months of home confinement. In the federal system, much is the same as Little Nemo and Psycho have articulated (you don't mind if I call you Psycho, do you? Reminds me of....). Anyway, what is different in the fed system is that the prisons themselves are either minimum, medium, or maximum security. There is little mixing of the "bad" and the "good". You have to earn a spot in a minimum security camp, and if you aren't "good", you're gone in a heartbeat. A camp is where I was placed originally because of my status, and my relatively short sentence. It was an old college campus in the middle of a residential neighborhood. It had an ornamental wrought-iron fence around the perimeter, and we actually had to cross a residential street (and watch for cars) when going to chow. Was it nice and comfy? Sure. We had a track, weight equipment, a full size gym, hell, we even had electric guitars and drum sets. But it was still a prison, and they still locked the door behind you at night. I saw my wife once a month, and my kids even less because of the distance. Don't underestimate the deterrant effect that lack of freedom instills in a person, regardless of the how comfortable it is. Country club? I don't think so. I still have nightmares of being "in-house".
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#38
08-20-2003, 10:55 PM
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I think what they deserve is to get a job and have to pay to make restitution. If you steal my watch, you can go to prison, and that's great, but I'm still without my watch. My mother worked at the local prison, and they have a golf course. Now why would this deter someone?
That said, I don't know why street people don't just hold up a 7-11 to go to prison, where they are at least given three meals a day. Wouldn't that be better than living on the street?
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#39
08-20-2003, 11:08 PM
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In any case, perhaps my post above can give you a little insight. Just hope that someone you love doesn't make a mistake, you would then learn quickly what I'm talking about.
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#40
08-21-2003, 12:14 AM
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#42
08-21-2003, 08:16 AM
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It's in the link, nemo.
FTR, that link made me even more cynical of the justice system than I was before  . In order to get rid of this extreme bias towards "clearing the slate" of cases rather than pursuing justice, as per the justice system's name, we should let go of our punishments on victimless crimes ASAP.To answer the OP, prisoners who are guilty of violent felonies or grand larceny or the equivalents do not "deserve" any of the niceties we currently allow them. They don't even deserve to live. You heard me right, I believe that even a "mere" rapist or thief deserves to die. Yet I am anti-death penalty since the truth of the matter is so hard to ascertain. Yet, we should still provide these things to prisoners, since it will save money by improving inmate health, reducing inmate violence and possibly reducing inmate resentment/psychological health once they are released. I don't buy the argument that it will increase crime by providing less of a deterrent: I don't think most criminals would do a crime if they knew they were going to jail anyway: they do it thinking they won't be caught.
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#43
08-21-2003, 09:07 AM
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All of these programs are designed to give job training to an inmate who had no marketable skills previously. The hope is that is that by giving them employment prospects, they won't need to turn to crime to support themselves.
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#44
08-21-2003, 12:20 PM
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Ask question first, look up prior cites second: From annaplurabelle's cites, prisoners are sewing garments that are sold in the Orient, and doing other jobs that compete with outside labor at a very low cost. This is an issue to me, but unfortunately it's a hijack, so I'll drop it.
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#45
08-21-2003, 12:46 PM
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"In the past 20 years, while serious crime rates have remained relatively stable, the incarceration rate has more than doubled. "
From annaplurabelle's again, link In other words, imprisoning twice the number has not proportionately reduced the crime rate.
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#46
08-21-2003, 01:41 PM
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Back to what they deserve, they are humans, treat them as humans.
Humans can be dangerous and difficult, so the physical prison and CO's have to be built and prepared for that. If you believe in measured punishment (big crime more punishment, lesser crime less), the easiest way is to measure it in time. Same number of hours in a day for everyone. If you believe in 'trimmings' determined by the warden, then when the warden moves on, the punishment changes--it's determined by bureaucrat's personality, not the criminal's actions. If you believe in keeping the public safe, lock-up keeps offenders away from you and me, for x time. Measured punishment keeps scarier guys locked away longer. Also for keeping the public safe, typically it is young males that are the most dangerous. After they are in their thirties, the crime rate drops. They've served their terms, they get out, if they make it through the first year outside the risk is much reduced. If you believe in the marriage having a chance of continuing, the kids having some connection with their father, the father having some future living in society with a job and friends, how do you handle it? The cites give the numbers of man and woman inmates. So, the kids having some connection with their mother, the mother having some future with a job and friends, how do you handle it?
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#49
08-21-2003, 04:33 PM
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#50
08-22-2003, 02:13 AM
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I think the most impartial thing I can say about the article in that link is that it presents one side of the issue. For the record, New York has never had any privately operated prisons and prison-built products can only be sold to government or non-profit organizations.
One other issue that was made was that inmates should be treated differently based on their crimes. That's not how it works. As far as the prison is concerned it doesn't matter if you're a marijuana smoker or a serial killer; your privileges inside will be based on your behavior inside. I've known several multiple murderers who never caused a problem in prison. And one of the worst inmates I've ever met was doing time for minor burglary charges. Usually, we don't know or care what the inmate's original crime was.
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