Tense situation or more tense situation?

[evilbeth]

This is a question that has been bugging me for quite a while and my husband finally told me to put it to the Teeming Millions.

What should you do when someone that you work with (alongside of, actually) says things that you find offensive/don't agree with? I don't mean harassing things like, "Gee, your boobs look terrific!" I mean, they try to engage you in conversations about black people while referring to them as "those people" or talk about homosexuals as "those fags" etc.

Do you just not encourage them (not laugh at their snide comments) and say nothing to avoid causing a situation? After all, it is just a conversation with a co-worker whose I.Q. is roughly equivelent to your pants size and really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things so why stir up trouble? They might never say anything like it again.

On the other hand, they might just take your silence as agreement and continue to include you in these discussions. To avoid this, should you say, "Excuse me, but I don't share your views and I would appreciate your not using that terminology around me," and then deal with the tension that arises from you saying something? That tension is going to be there for a good, long while. After all, these aren't people who would "understand" your position--they obviously don't think enough to "test the waters" before spewing their hateful speech.

This is happening to me at work (and to my husband as well.) His problem is that a co-worker is attempting to engage him in conversation that basically boils down to "Why don't those uppity Negroes just take what we allow them to have and be happy with it?" My husband does not agree with this ridiculous "thinking" at all. However, he is a really nice guy who everyone feels they can talk to. If he were to say something, other people may be afraid to speak freely with him for fear that he doesn't happen to agree with their viewpoints either.

I, on the other hand, am facing several different people in my department who have all manner of prejudices. I've got one woman who regularly throws around terms like "chink" and "dyke." I've got another woman referring to the "coloreds" coming to the hospital (she is not 60+ years old either--she is in her thirties.) Then I've got the irritating Fundies in the office (I have spoken of them before) who go through our patient lists looking for anyone there for treatment for "Infectious Disease" (which BTW, does not always mean AIDS, it also means Hepatitis, TB, viral meningitis, etc.) so they can spend hours condemning them and saying, "Well, all this suffering is what they get for leading a sinful life." They also go through and look at all the OB patients who are not having babies and talk about "those baby-killing whores" because they assume they are having D&E procedures performed. These things are really starting to get to me. Like I said, it isn't just one person, it is several. Aside from these certain views, these people (most) are easy to get along with. That is why I have been hesitant to say anything up until now. I don't want to be ostracized as the "ultra-sensitive" one. I want to say something but I don't know what.

Help!

(Sorry so long!)

------------------
"You don't have insurance? Well, just have a seat and someone will be with you after you die." --Yes, another quality sig custom created by Wally!

A Jesusfied sig: Next time I covet thine opinion, I'll ask for it!

[SwimmingRiddles]

Wait, they go through CONFIDENTIAL patient files for no reason other than to pry? Um...that has malpractice written all over it.

My office is located directly across the hall from a function room, kind of like a very small convention room. We have the understanding with the kitchen staff that when these groups are done, we are free to scavenge,and see if they left cake or soda or something. Every Wednesday there is a group of people who come in, and tend to take what they don't eat with them. This causes quite a bit of disention among my department, as people feel we're intitled to that food. (we have to smell them cooking it all day, it's not fair to yank it away from us...yada yada.) For whatever reason, there are is a large number of Indian (from India) people in that department, and a coworker had taken to referring to them as "The Pakistanies." After hearing that for the 14th THOUSAND time, I calmly told her that she should be careful who she says that around, that if an Indian hears that someone is calling them a Pakistani, that is increadibly offensive to them. She said she didn't care who heard her, and I told her I wished she wouldn't label people by their race. That pissed her off royally, she got all uppity, and was all "I can say what I want, I am not saying anything BAD about them, yada yada yada." But it is now commonly understood in the department that you do NOT say those things around me.

If you and your husband call those people on their behavior, THEY will be embarrassed, not you. Their embarrasment may manifest itself badly at first, but they will understand quickly that you do not find that kind of talk appropriate in general, and especially at work. I've also spoken up when people in the office make anti-gay remarks, like "Did you see that shirt Gene is wearing today? Pink. Jesus. What kind of a queer is he?" I loudly exclaimed, in a semi-sarcastic voice "Not that there's anything wrong with that, RIGHT?" They may continue to be bigots, but I don't have to hear it anymore.

[C3]

I have this same problem where I work. I am in utter shock that people make racist/homophobic/sexist comments STILL!!!!
I have a couple reactions that I use:
1) I nicely say stuff like, "I don't think that's an accurate statement" or "I've never experienced that with whatever group their talking about" These comments don't attack their beliefs, but are really my attempt at gentle reminders that the speaker is completely wrong.
2) Give them a really dirty or mean/bewildered looks. Look at the speaker in a completely dumbfounded way.
or 3) Walk away.

People still occasionally say stuff to me, but not nearly as much. I have not experienced people avoiding me or anything like that. They just think I'm weird - oh well.

I don't think that people's reactions to your comments will really be embarassment. The people who work here are not at all shameful of thinking those thoughts. They've been brought up in hateful households and communities and they think that what they believe is the norm (and it is, where they've come from). They think other people are just "bleeding heart liberals" who are just trying to be PC. They will probably believe that deep down, you know they're right, but you've been brainwashed by the liberal media to spout the party line.
I doubt they'll be hostile to you...they'll just think you're misguided.

[aenea]

EvilB,

Shame on them! Drag it out into the bright daylight! Say what you are feeling to these folk in a face-to-face in front of some other people, so they will be forced to admit their prejudice (or in the one case - their nosy gossip) to themselves an others. Or they will deny it loudly, and know not to say such things around you anymore.

You have a right to be sick and tired of it. How long have you worked there? Six years or better, isn't it? Regardless of where you are in seniority, you tell those nasty old biddies where it's at.

Fight the ignorance around you, one day at a time. It will take a lot of patience, but it's better than putting up with it continuously.

[tomndebb]

For the co-worker who insists on engaging me while putting down some group, I have usually found that I can get them to leave me alone by being very polite, but never agreeing with them.

"Them coloreds is all thieves."

"Every time I've been ripped off it was by some white guy."

"Why do those Jews insist that we can't have Santa in the school for the kids."

"None of the school board members who voted for that are Jewish and the people in the group that requested that rule aren't Jewish. I don't think the decision had anything to do with Jewish people."

After a while, they get bored and leave me alone. I never bother to challenge them head-to-head. I simply deflect their comments while refusing to let their comments stand as true.

Your snooping church ladies are a bit different. I'd avoid them when possible and report any actual company rules that they violated to HR. (Document the report on paper or e-mail so that if it blows up no one can claim that you said more or less than you did.) You might also decorate your area with a cross-stitch or nicely decorated sign with such quotes as "Judge not, lest you be judged." and "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

------------------
Tom~

[dekayx]

Tom has described the best way to handle those comments...after all, you are not likely to change such a person's mind by a direct confrontation. Better to outwit him - even though it is like fighting an unarmed man.

By the way - question for Beth

Is it offensive to say "your boobs look terrific"?

------------------
I am diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

[SkySlash]

Be honest with them. People are to afraid to slap others in the face with reality, mostly because people have a problem dealing with reality. Let me give a few RL examples I've had to do this in the past:


Coworker:
I'm sick and tired of all the damn blacks living off welfare and buying drugs with their unemployment checks.

The Reality Slap:
Let's go talk to John about that, maybe he has some insight into helping you solve the problems of his racial group.(John is a Black Vice President at our company)

Coworker:
Camel Jockeys...*mutter*...all they do is cause riots and have their women pop out terrorists!

The Reality Slap:
Funny, I recall it being an American that committed the first terrorist act on US soil and I'm not remembering the last time I noticed an Arab riding a camel to work!

Management Coworker:
We got this nigger out in the shop, dumb boy thinks he's going to make journeyman by next Spring!

The Reality Slap:
And is something going to keep him from doing that? I mean I'd hate to think his supervisor was a racist!


If you talk to these people in a way that makes them realize the absolute stupidity in what they are saying, one of two things will happen.

1. They will begin to realize you don't want to hear their prejudice comments, and you won't hear them anymore.

2. They will apologize realizing that your unwillingness to "fit in" to their nonsensical monologue renders you a threat to their job...congratulations, you now have them avoid you or kissing your ass.


People cannot handle the truth about themselves...if you put that truth in their face, even in the sensitive work world, they "WILL" back off, if they don't, even if they are above you, immediately report their behavior to HR. Companies in today's world cannot afford the legal battles that stem from discrimination and they will act. Also, gather proof in the form of a recording or email before reporting the person...otherwise it could backfire.

Regardless, your concious is clear, and you will be respected for your indifference to hostile, misguided slurs!

-SS

------------------
Join the "Free SkySlash From His Ego" Movement Today!!! Visit your local chapter office for details!

[SwimmingRiddles]

How about when it is NOT at work? That's what gets me. I have no problem letting people know that their behavior is unacceptable for a work place, but...

We were staying with friends in Florida on vacation. My friend's mom has been dating this guy who is a redneck through and through for 2 years. He came home, and announced: "Damn, I worked harder than a fucking nigger. OOPS. I mean I worked harder than a nigger." Now, I visibly stiffened, and my clenched my jaw, but I was in his house, so I didn't feel comfortable saying "Um, how is a sexual obscentity less acceptable than a racial one?". Any suggestions on dealing with bigots in that sense?

[elbows]

When a similar thing happened to me, it caught me so off guard I also was dumbstruck. I fell silent like yourself. I thought about the same concerns you have for a day, but I determined that I would remain cooly but still kindly silent. If pressed, my next question would be a polite and soft spoken, 'Do you voice these views before your minister or your children, I'm just curious?" I never had to ask it, but I would have if I'd have been pressed and I would have followed with an inquiry into how the minister reconciled this with 'Judgement be MINE sayeth the Lord'

It's shocking to come face to face with ignorance and bigotry.

------------------
Wisdom is the boobie prize,they give you when you've been --unwise!

[aschrott]

SR--My two cents is that confronting people in their homes is more of a sensitive issue than it is at work. While on the job I am not at all reluctant to express my indignance when coworkers make their enlightening comments about "blacks" "jews" or "orientals". Like you, I have found that people tend to shut up and go away if you call them on it.

But last fall I went to a wedding as my SO's date. Her whole family was there and I was made very welcome, but I was still conscious of being an outsider. Anyway, her uncle launched into an alarmingly racist line of conversation, and as I sat by silently the whole family chimed right in. Despite the fact that I was uncomfortable, I didn't feel I had the right to assert my views, being a guest and all. I left the room instead, which is what I usually do in those situations.

I don't respect anybody's right to be a bigot, but I also don't think I have the right to disrupt other people's family lives.

Your situation might be different, though. It sounds like you have more of a relationship with the person in question, and might have a bit more of a foothold in a confrontation.

------------------
Ignorant since 1972

Evilbeth, I feel for you, I really do. I've been in your exact situation more times than I care to think of, the world being the imperfect place that it is, and FWIW, here are my own personal guidelines.

• Try to remember that it's not necessarily your job to educate the whole bigoted, prejudiced, homophobic, illiterate, nose-pickin', fart-lightin' deeply stupid, non-politically correct world.
• If you feel you must attempt to educate, pick battles you can win. Don't try to re-argue the entire case for homosexual rights, right there in the Xerox room while you're waiting your turn. Basically, anything involving religion, politics, or sex will take more "educating" than you will ever be able to provide in a 20-second snippet of conversation in the hallway, or even 20 minutes at lunchtime.
• However, if the subject at hand is deeply personal (she's made a snide remark about people in wheelchairs demanding special parking spaces, and your sister happens to be in a wheelchair and needs those parking spaces), you are of course entitled, nay, OBLIGATED to call her on it. Be short and to the point; don't be insulting, just instructing.
• Also, if you just can't stand it anymore, listening to her yammer on about "homos", you may politely but firmly call her on it. But don't bring up "homosexual rights". Focus instead on the fact that she is making you uncomfortable, and call her on THAT. Say, "Excuse me, but it really makes me uncomfortable to hear you talk like that, and I'd rather you didn't." Now the ball is in her court; she can either shut up, or she can decide to take up the cudgels against "homos". If she says, "Geez, what's YOUR problem?" just smile and shrug and say, "I dunno, it just bothers me. Let's talk about something else, OK?"
• That said, if someone really gets in your face about something (it's the millionth time she's made a snotty remark about people in wheelchairs, even though you've called her on it before,) then you can do one of two things: you can learn to ignore it (which is what will actually be the best thing for you and your stress levels), or you can invite her to meet you out behind the gym and thrash it out, man to man. I suggest you do not try this in the office, because office managers tend to make notes in personnel files, and they read those notes when it comes time for promotions and raises. "Blessed are the peacemakers...", eh?

Also, bear in mind that some male office managers and junior executives (if you should be so blessed :rolleyes , and doctors, too, unfortunately still tend to dismiss all disagreements between female co-workers as "catfights" and blame it on "that time of the month", 40 years of women's lib and consciousness-raising notwithstanding. So, by avoiding open conflict with your female co-workers (by which I mean a screaming argument in the coffee room), you will actually be furthering the cause of female office workers everywhere.

When it comes right down it, EB, the world is just full of--now, what's that special word that Wally uses?--oh, yes, now I remember...

PUTZES.

------------------
"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!" - the White Queen

[evilbeth]

Thank you, everyone, for your replies!

I just want to point out a few things. First off, our office is very small. Very small. My guest bedroom is bigger. And we (because of the nature of our job) do not get to leave our little space except to pee or eat. So, I cannot walk away from these people.

Second, they are not getting into personal, confidential files to access this info. To be able to give out patient conditions over the phone (part of our job) we have printouts of all patients, their sex, their condition, and the reason they are there. So they are not actually breaking any rules when looking at the Infectious Disease patients.

All of the individuals I mentioned have been employed at the hospital for longer than me (nope, no hope for advancement--it is that crappy a job!) but there is no seniority.

However, there is a larger problem that I didn't mention here. These people do not like me in the first place which makes working side-by-side in such a small area all the more difficult. Everyone has a fake smile and a false compassion for everyone else. Why do they not like me? I have mentioned this in threads previously but I will give a short explanation of it here. They, as I mentioned previously, are Fundamentalists. The easiest explanation for my spiritual beliefs is that I am Wiccan. (It is much more involved but I just use that label for convenience sake.) They think this means I am a Satanic, baby-killing, blood-drinking, human-sacrificing Godless heathen. And they have said as much. Not to my face of course, because in person we all get along. They have, however, indicated in writing (to me) as much along with the assertion that it was people like me that caused the shootings at Columbine (I don't know either.) Anyway, this adds to the original problem. In a situation where I feel that I have to walk on eggshells anyway, causing a scene over terminology is a risky step.

Now, does anyone have any further advice based on this new info?

(And don't tell me to talk to my boss. He wants to be everybody's pal and no one's boss. He always says, "I'll check into it." or "Well, you just be the bigger person and they'll stop." Any correspondence over my boss's head just gets rerouted back to him to deal with. Yeah, I know, I need to get another job...)

BTW, yes, I am going for the Whiner-of-the-Year prize! How did you know?

------------------
"You don't have insurance? Well, just have a seat and someone will be with you after you die." --Yes, another quality sig custom created by Wally!

A Jesusfied sig: Next time I covet thine opinion, I'll ask for it!

[Lexicon]

Well, normally I am very reserved about expressing my opinion, but I think this is a great topic, so here goes.

If you ever hear something that offends you, at work or otherwise, you should say something. You should ask that person not to involve you in conversations that spout such bullshit (phrase it more politely, especially @ work) and let them know that you don't want to here that kind of crap out of them or anyone.

There is absolutely no need for you to have to tolerate the bigoted pontifications of some asshole, no matter where you are.

Likewise, don't go sticking your opinion in their face either; you know, live and let live, etc.


I work with these two people I cannot stand. Most of the time the ignore tactic works, as they are not really rude, just annoying.
The first guy is always rolling over to me and telling me the most pointless shit I have ever heard in my life. Example:

"This one time, I went camping, and there was a stream there, and the water was really cold. It looked refreshing, but it was really, really cold."

Huh?

And the other lady is this religious nutbar. There is nothing wrong with being religious, but constantly quoting scripture and preaching the gospel to people who frankly don't want to hear it is just plain aggravating. Example:

What she says all day long:
"You all really should consider the love that jesus has for you. The things you do will come back to you, for vengeance is mine, sayeth the lord. Remember, whosoever believeth in me shall not perish, but have everlasting life. Jesus loves all of us sinners, but we need to accept his love..."

What I hear:
"blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah jesus blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah jesus blah blah blah blah blah blah blah..."

So rest assured, some folks just feel the need to run their mouths, it's not always openly reprehensible(sp?).

But you need to tell these people, in your own words, this:
"Don't take this personally, but shut your ass, I don't want to hear your shit."

Then forget about them.

------------------
"Winners never quit and quitters never win, but those who never win and never quit are idiots."

Golly, Evilbeth, it's worse than I thought. You truly have a tough row to hoe and I feel for you.

Is there any possibility of getting a different job? Because I have been in situations with Fightin' Fundies like you describe, and you must realize (I want to MAKE you realize, sweetie) that they really, truly, seriously believe that you are a tool of the Devil, an evil demon personified sitting right next to them in that tiny cubicle. Geez.

Every time you blow your nose, they're watching to see if you mutter a spell. (Seriously. :rolleyes Needless to say, none of them will leave their pocketbooks where you can get at them; you might "do something" to them, like put a tiny voodoo doll in them. (You think I'm making this up?) If you sit out in your car for a few minutes before you come in to work, they're scared to death you're out there putting hexes on them . I bet there's at least one of them who says a silent prayer to Jesus for protection from the Evil One before she walks in through the front door at 9:00 a.m.

And you don't even want to think about what goes through their heads when they use the restroom right after you. (I need a smilie for "Mr. Yuck")

I'm sorry this sounds so negative, but I don't see how the situation can possibly get any better. It's like having the worst gay-basher in the world sitting next to somebody who's flagrantly gay, with the extra added bonus of unpleasant words and difficult concepts like "Sin" and "Hell" and "Evil" and "Damnation" and "Satan" being thrown around.

You're never in a million years going to be able to convince them that you have a right to your opinions, no matter what your constitutional rights may be, because as they see it, if THEY can change YOUR mind, they not only have the satisfaction of winning an argument, they will also be saving your immortal soul! into the bargain. It's awfully hard to argue with someone who only wants "what's best for you," especially if that person is convinced that the Almighty God Himself commanded it.

You're lucky if they're even barely civil to you. Find another job, is my advice.




------------------
"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!" - the White Queen

[sailor]

Quote:

Focus instead on the fact that she is making you uncomfortable, and call her on THAT. Say, "Excuse me, but it really makes me uncomfortable to hear you talk like that, and I'd rather you didn't." Now the ball is in her court; she can either shut up, or she can decide to take up the cudgels against "homos". If she says, "Geez, what's YOUR problem?" just smile and shrug and say, "I dunno, it just bothers me. Let's talk about something else, OK?"

Unquote

Notthemama, that is the very best advice I have heard in a long time... I will make a note of it.

I have a friend who is pretty bad in this respect and it is useless to try to reason or argue with him but when he goes into one of his tirades against whatever group it is that day I will smile and make remarks like "you do realize that when you speak like that most people will take you for a fool?" (I am not telling him what *I* think, I am just trying to"be helpful)

[Felinecare]

I suppose you can always use their ignorance against them. Next time someone speaks against whoever, proclaim: *Our new coven leader is {insert category}! You wouldn't believe what happened to the last person who used that phrase!*

After all, if your boss just wants a quiet life, he's going to brush off their complaints the way he brushes off yours. And if you get fired, can you picture the discrimination suit? *I was fired because my co-worker can't function because she's persuaded herself I put a curse on her*

Seriously, you're in a no-win situation here. If you can't learn to insert white noise (so to speak) in your head when the rambling starts, better find another job.

[Mojo]

"Are you wearing a watch? Could you tell me what century this is?"

"I'm afraid that I don't know how to respond intelligently to that comment."

and the old standby:

"Annnnnnnyyyywaaay...."

The first one I said after a co-worker (actually a former employee, a higher up salesperson) was talking about coon hunting and remarked that he wasn't talking about raccoons. That gave me the cold shivers.

I'm a big fan of using sarcasm. You don't get pegged as being overly sensitive and it throws it back at them. However, most people don't appreciate that.

[pluto]

Gee, evilbeth, your boobs look terrific!

Sorry. I tried not to do it. I really tried.

------------------
"I'll tell him but I don't think he'll be very keen. He's already got one, you see!"

[evilbeth]

Originally posted by pluto:
Gee, evilbeth, your boobs look terrific!

Sorry. I tried not to do it. I really tried.

Thanks! That's what I've been fishing for all along!

------------------
"You don't have insurance? Well, just have a seat and someone will be with you after you die." --Yes, another quality sig custom created by Wally!

A Jesusfied sig: Next time I covet thine opinion, I'll ask for it!

[evilbeth]

Thanks everyone for all your help! Notthemama, that really is good advice and I thank you for being so understanding. However, I must admit that some days I really get off on doing things to bug them! I know that's horrible and I don't really have any room to complain about them if I do that but sometimes it just goes so far that absurdity is called for! There are several other pagans that work around my area so most of the time I just spend my time with them. (Hardly anyone knows they are pagan--religion seems to only be a big concern in my department--probably because it is so small (8 people) and 5 of them are Fundies.) Hmm...maybe I should post something asking for clever ways to get back at them! That would be extremely immature and childish...yet, so fun!

------------------
"You don't have insurance? Well, just have a seat and someone will be with you after you die." --Yes, another quality sig custom created by Wally!

A Jesusfied sig: Next time I covet thine opinion, I'll ask for it!

[Rilchiam]

Originally posted by evilbeth:
religion seems to only be a big concern in my department--probably because it is so small (8 people) and 5 of them are Fundies.)

What religion are the other two employees? Do the Fundies harass them as well? If so, how do they handle it?



------------------
"His eyes are as green as a fresh-pickled toad,
His hair is as dark as a blackboard,
I wish he was mine, he's really divine,
The hero who conquered the Dark Lord."

[PunditLisa]

Beth, from reading your posts I know that you are a normal, thoughtful person. However, the fact that your user name is "EvilBeth" and the fact that you are a "wiccan" suggests to me that perhaps you seek people's disapproval. Don't be surprised when people cluck their tongues and shake their heads at you if this is the exact reaction you solicit. Isn't that part of the reason you tell people that you are a wiccan? First of all, it's none of their business what your religion is. Secondly, you KNOW that the term "wiccan" is misunderstood and laden...

You complain about people using derogatory terms, but in your post you refer to your co-workers as "fundies", as do other posters on this thread. Posters who would never DREAM of using the words "nigger" or "kike." Yet terms like "fundie" and "redneck" are perfectly acceptable. Surely you can see the hypocrisy of this.

So, my answer to your question is that you need to decide what you want: A happy, harmonious workplace? Or a tense, combative workplace? You shouldn't complain about an acrimonious environment if you contribute to the feeling of unrest.

Food for thought and sans malice. Lisa

Sorry, PunditLisa, but there's no hypocrisy emerging from THIS particular keyboard.

SAY IT NOW AND SAY IT LOUD!

FIGHTIN' FUNDIE -- DAMN PROUD!


Would anybody claim to be a Fundie who wasn't?

Ciao, baby.


BTW, Evilbeth, this being America, while I might not agree with what you say, I will still defend to the death your right to say it.

Ciao.





------------------
"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!" - the White Queen

[evilbeth]

Originally posted by PunditLisa:
Beth, from reading your posts I know that you are a normal, thoughtful person. However, the fact that your user name is "EvilBeth" and the fact that you are a "wiccan" suggests to me that perhaps you seek people's disapproval. Don't be surprised when people cluck their tongues and shake their heads at you if this is the exact reaction you solicit. Isn't that part of the reason you tell people that you are a wiccan? First of all, it's none of their business what your religion is. Secondly, you KNOW that the term "wiccan" is misunderstood and laden...

You complain about people using derogatory terms, but in your post you refer to your co-workers as "fundies", as do other posters on this thread. Posters who would never DREAM of using the words "nigger" or "kike." Yet terms like "fundie" and "redneck" are perfectly acceptable. Surely you can see the hypocrisy of this.

I have explained several times on this board why I chose that username. It is a nickname that didn't come from any kind of malicious or evil doings. It's a stupid story but it has to do with a fake rubber bat eraser and a summer I spent acting as responsible adult to my friends' adolescent antics. I have neither the time nor inclination to explain it all again and suggest you look it up if you want to know. Anyone who has ever met me has laughed at the assertion that my nickname reflects my real personality at all.

For the record, I did not tell these people I was Wiccan simply because I do know how people misunderstand it. A friend of mine who used to work in my department knew and one day she let it slip during a conversation with some of the others. They all really liked me up until that day. Yes, that day changed their minds completely. During the Columbine aftermath, one of the women who had liked me very much until she found out my religion put an article on our bulletin board decrying the "satanists, witches and other evil" that were causing the downfall of today's youth.

The other two people in my office are Christian in the general sense. They don't attend church but consider themselves Christian. That seems to be okay with the Fundamentalists. And I used the word, "Fundies" because it was shorter than "Fundamentalists" not necessarily because it has negative overtones, although I do acknowledge that the word is used in that sense so I do apologize. They are Fundamentalist Christians. The terms "nigger" and "kike" are not simply shortened forms of more acceptable words. I don't like the word "redneck" when it is used in a negative way, either. (Yes, it can be used in a somewhat-positive way when used referring to ones self, for example.)

PunditLisa, as for your assertion that the fact that I am "wiccan" (quotes yours) suggests to you that I seek people's disapproval, I'd like to know what the hell that is supoosed to mean. I mean, I'm quite certain that most Christians choose to be that way just to piss people off. And all Buddhists choose their religion just because it drives other people crazy. And those wacky Hindus, calling themselves that just to spite everyone.

Again, I do not tell people what my religion is unless they ask me. I don't go around handing out the Wiccan-equivelent of Chick Tracts condemning non-believers to lives of bad karma and reincarnations as cockroaches.

------------------
"You don't have insurance? Well, just have a seat and someone will be with you after you die." --Yes, another quality sig custom created by Wally!

A Jesusfied sig: Next time I covet thine opinion, I'll ask for it!

[GaWd]

Oy, Oy, Oy vey...

EvilBethy, You gotta let them know where you stand. Your silence could definitely be taken as "sisterhood", or agreeance with the fundies.

Personally, whenever you feel injustice is being perpetrated on persons not present, let them know! The churchies going through peoples med records to gasp at their ailments, while not illegal, is certainly unethical and I would have a hard time with it.

Me, personally being Jewish had to hear in the early 90's the adjective "jewish" grow in popularity in California. Every time I heard it, I made sure the people knew they were standing next to a jew(who just happened to be a big jock), and they usually apologized, utterly embarassed for themselves.

So, I must agree with everyone here, in their own ways--excluding Lisa(that was not an attack, and please don't take it as such...just my opinion).

Sam

[PunditLisa]

Beth, you have indicated that you enjoy provoking the "fundies" from time to time and you have criticized them repeatedly for their religious beliefs. So, I am suggesting that perhaps both sides need to give a little here...?

Re the term "wiccan," let me try to explain myself again, since I did it so poorly the first time. Wiccan. You know the word is misunderstood, that people equate it with satanism and witches. You know your co-workers became hostile when they discovered you were one. Yet you continue to use the term to describe yourself. Ditto with the word "pagan" which you use in the post above to describe yourself and your friends. Surely you know that the term "pagan" has negative connotations, esp. to Jews and Christians.

While I have gotten to know you through this board, and I know that you are a thoughtful, kind person, I wonder why you would constantly use these terms, terms that you know are laden, to describe yourself?

Take the next sentence as a friendly question, NOT an accusation: Do you enjoy being provocative? Seriously. Do you enjoy it?

If not, then why do you chose to provoke people with your words and actions? If you do, then it can help you understand why people act with hostility when you are around.

Lisa

[monster]

Hey Beth, how good are you at the "look"? You know the one...when the person is spouting ignorance, and you thoughtfully look at them with a slight smile on your face. With this look on your face, you look like you are thinking, "You are the biggest asshole I have ever seen, and I am confused as to how you function in life". Continue the look (stare) after he finishes speaking until he feels like the ass he is. I have mastered this technique and there is no question about taboo topics with me.

As far as in someone's home, I'd just get up and leave the room. Go into the guest bedroom and read a book until the conversation is over. You are saying you don't want to participate without offending your friends.

Good luck!!

[Eve]

Beth—have you ever tried to sit down with these people and explain your religion to them? "You might have misunderstood what a wiccan is . . ." Maybe they really do think you're a baby-killin' Satan worshipper. Or aren't these the kind of people you can have a grown-up conversation with?

Personally, I would take their disapproval as a great compliment.

[inertia]

PunditLisa: The fact that the Christians killed every Wiccan they saw for hundreds of years does not invalidate it as a religion. EB can not be expected to not list herself as a religion she has every right to chose just because her co-workers gang up on her. If that provokes her co-workers, that is a problem with her co-workers and not with her.

EB: Terrorise them. Borrow a car and follow them home and then just keep driving. Let them overhear you on the phone talking about obtaining a suitable sacrifice etc. Ask 'em if they know anyone with live chickens 'cause you need the blood. Make it uncomfortable for them to work with you and at least they will avoid ya'. Make 'em quit.

Seriously though, you could talk to the patients after these women do and ask them if they'd like to fill out a complaint form. I'm sure you'll find some that aren't quite happy about this sort of treatment. The wife of a friend of mine recently contracted TB from working in a blood lab. I'm guessing they'd come in and talk to her too.

Before you do any of this, go to your boss and tell her that the other women have something against you. Do the whole paranoia thing and then work it the other way.

Most importantly, keep us updated.

[Rilchiam]

This looks Pit-bound. Or GD-bound.

[PunditLisa]

Inertia, the fact that christians killed wiccans merely illustrates my point. You can't get much more hostile than killing someone. A lot of people are fearful of wiccans because they equate them with devil worshipers. People fear evil, they fear the devil, they fear witches. To proclaim yourself to be a wiccan greatly increases the probability that people will meet you with hostility. Rightly or wrongly. Ditto for people who paint their nails black and wear "Marilyn Manson" t-shirts. It doesn't mean you don't have a *right* to do whatever you want or look however you want, it just means that a lot of people will not look past the black nails to discover the person underneath.

And ultimately beth has to decide if she really cares what these people think and if she wants to try and alleviate the problem. And if she DOES want the situation alleviated, aside from THEIR bevavior, is there some behavior on her part that she can change in order to work towards that goal? Maybe there is and maybe there isn't. But it's worth a look.

Lisa

I think that when inertia was advising Evilbeth to terrorize the Fundies, he was probably speaking pretty much tongue in cheek. At least, I'm assuming he was...

I personally wouldn't advise it as a technique. Frighten a Fundie badly enough, and the next thing you know, there are villagers with torches breaking down your front door, like in the ending of every Frankenstein movie ever made. (figuratively speaking)

But you don't want to open the legal can of worms called "harassment", because, let's face it, odds are that your lawyer, your judge, and all 12 people on the jury are going to be, if not actual Christians, at least nominal ones, and once they hear that buzzword, "witch", your goose is cooked.

But I have to agree with PunditLisa. EB, you need to decide how badly you want to get along with these people. It's your call.

Like I said, if I was in your shoes, and that badly outnumbered, I'd bail. But then I'm not a real combative person anyway.

::: shrug :::


------------------
"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!" - the White Queen

[evilbeth]

Let me explain again for those of you who did not seem to get it the first time--I do not "call" myself anything around these people. I do not refer to myself as Wiccan, pagan or a witch. I don't discuss religion with them, save for the one time I tried to explain what Wicca truly is. (One woman had equated it with Satanism and I, seeing this as a golden opportunity, tried to explain the difference but was met with, "Call it whatever name you want but without Jesus it is Satanic.")

My point on this thread was not to ask how to alleviate religious discrimination in the office--I know that is a losing battle and I just come in and do my work and leave--smiling the whole time. I only posted the information about the religious tension to illustrate that the work environment was not as friendly as it could be to start with and therefore made attempts at saying anything difficult. I'm not sure how this got sidetracked but I do appreciate all the positive advice that has been given.

PunditLisa--as for the present terminology describing my religious beliefs being "misunderstood", "laden", and "provocative", exactly what do you propose I call my religion when asked about it? Should I just blush ashamedly and say, "I shouldn't say. You wouldn't approve," or should I just make up an unpronounceable symbol like Prince so as not to offend anyone's delicate sensibilities? As I have pointed out numerous times, I do not call myself anything to my co-workers and I was not the one who told them what my religion was!However, if they (or anyone else) asks me what religion I am, I will tell them. I will not hide who I am and what I believe simply because some samll-minded people choose to be ignorant and uneducated when it comes to ideas different than their own.

And so far as your assertion that I have "criticized them repeatedly for their religious beliefs", I ask you to show me where. I have criticized them for passing judgement on individuals without knowing the full situation and unless I am reading my Bible incorrectly, Matthew 7:1 distinctly says, "Judge not, that ye be not judged"--yet that is exactly what they are doing. I don't dislike or disrespect their religion. I admire any religion that teaches people to not judge others, treat others as you would have them treat you and to love your neighbor. However, I do take exception to people who claim to be such fervent believers in such a loving religion and yet say the horrible things they say.

------------------
"You don't have insurance? Well, just have a seat and someone will be with you after you die." --Yes, another quality sig custom created by Wally!

A Jesusfied sig: Next time I covet thine opinion, I'll ask for it!

[evilbeth]

And BTW, we are here (and I transfer it over to my personal life) to fight ignorance, not hide or kowtow to it.

------------------
"You don't have insurance? Well, just have a seat and someone will be with you after you die." --Yes, another quality sig custom created by Wally!

A Jesusfied sig: Next time I covet thine opinion, I'll ask for it!

[PunditLisa]

Beth, in my twenty years in the workplace, I have never been asked by anyone what my religion was. Admittedly I live under a rock, but I just consider that to be a rude question.

Should you hide your religion? That's 100% your call. Should a gay person divulge his homosexuality proudly and risk alienating a whole bunch of his friends and co-workers? On principle the answer is a resounding yes. Stand tall and proud! In practice, it's not that simple, as you have found out. As I've said before, each person has to decide what's more important to them. Sometimes you can't have both.

As far as evidence of your criticism of people for their religious beliefs, I was referring to your OP. Some fundamental christians and jews DO believe that homosexuality is a sin. Some think abortion, pre-marital sex, and even the pill go against God's law. Ridiculous? Perhaps. But, regardless, that is their code of ethics. To criticize them based on their religious beliefs is just as intolerant as them ridiculing you based on yours. Yes, it's petty of them to call people whores. But have you and your pagan friends ever gossiped in the breakroom about the "fundies"? If so, there's room for improvement on both sides, IMO. That's all I'm saying.

Lisa

[Surgoshan]

Just say to them, "I fully support your right to worship as you wish. You don't return the favor. That makes YOU The asshole."

or

"Hey, could we not discuss this? I don't like you."

"Look, I'm flattered that you care, but stop, you offend me."

"I don't worship Satan. Go away."

"Go away."

"Heius omnus ur pluribum malifie tominei de cerebum."

------------------
I sold my soul to Satan for a dollar. I got it in the mail.

originally posted by Evilbeth:
(One woman had equated it with Satanism and I, seeing this as a golden opportunity, tried to explain the difference but was met with, "Call it whatever name you want but without Jesus it is Satanic.")

If it's any consolation, EB, this woman probably feels the same way about Jehovah's Witnesses, Jews, Moslems, Hindus, and Buddhists, and she's probably not too sure about the Catholics--or Episcopalians and Presbyterians, either, for that matter.

So you're in good company, babe.

::: sigh :::

So many bigots, so little time...

------------------
"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!" - the White Queen

[evilbeth]

"Hey, could we not discuss this? I don't like you."

I don't know why I find this so funny but that is great! All my questions are answered! Thanks, Surgoshan! That sums it all up!

------------------
"You don't have insurance? Well, just have a seat and someone will be with you after you die." --Yes, another quality sig custom created by Wally!

A Jesusfied sig: Next time I covet thine opinion, I'll ask for it!

[SqrlCub]

I am posting this here too in case you don't read it in the SDMB Pagan's thread. I have been in many similar situations both with being gay and being Pagan.

It's easy EvilBeth, you just tell them, "I don't believe in your sky-god," and if they insist that he is not then say, "his power comes from the heavens." I have had that problem before. I went to a Catholic university and I can't tell you how many times being a heathen got brought up. (For the record, I used to read Tarot for one of the nuns...she was AWESOME!) Anyway, tell them that you have been documenting all their harassment (you have, haven't you) for X number of months and if they don't stop you have more than sufficient evidence to take legal action . Since your boss hasn't done anything to stop their harassment he will be held equally liable. Tell them that every time you even hear any conversation that even remotely involves you, Pagans, Gays, or other minorities in any type of negative sense that you write it down in a special notebook that you keep with you at all times. Then you actually have to start doing it. If they don't shut up and leave you alone after that then you have to follow through and start submitting their harassment. If the HR department doesn't do anything inform them that they are legally responsible to provide a workplace free from harassment and that your boss has not done anything then tell them if it happens again then you will be filing a lawsuit. I informed a coworker who kept saying nasty things about gays and me that every time I heard him say that, I made a note of it and showed him a log in a notebook (I also had it on my private email) and that if he didn't stop I would send it to our HR department. It has not happened since then around me. He knows better now.

I hope this helps.
HUGS!
Sqrl


------------------
SqrlCub's Arizona Adventure

[matt_mcl]

Funny, the one tactic that nobody ever thinks of to take care of these situations at work is, "Excuse me, I have work to do."

If someone were passing homophobic or anti-Wiccan commentary at work... well, it depends. If they were just using a slur, I'd turn the joke back on them or (if I were feeling sour) just tell them that I'm gay or Pagan or that my mom is Asian or whatever and that I don't appreciate that kind of remark.

If they actually expressed an opinion of some sort, I'd say in a friendly manner, "Well, I'm gay, and if you're interested to hear the other side of that, I'd be pleased to discuss it with you after work."

No question for me of not being out at work. Absolutely no question. If I can't be out at work, I don't want to work there. Fortunately I'm protected by human rights laws up here.

[FlatULance]

Ooh! I truly LOVES a catfight!