If Hell does exist will I be doomed there for eternity?

[NightUK]

I was christened a catholic, I have no real belief in religion but would say I am a good hearted man. I'm 26, I've grew up in a rough area of the UK and somehow managed never to steel, never to attack or purposely hurt someone unless I was attacked first (only happend twice), I've had sex before marriage and numerous one night stands. I've never paid for sex or been paid. I've taken drugs for personal use but never encouraged on others, I've even seen someone drop belongings (once about £100) and chased the person up to pass them there money. I've never prayed for 3 years and that was only once and askin for the girl of my dreams at the time (which came true suprisingly). I over tip people even if I cant afford it. I respect my friends and would never lie intentionally to them.

So my question is this. If Hell does exist will I be doomed there for eternity?

[UrbanChic]

It depends. If there's a Hell but no Purgatory, you're headed for Hell. If there's a Purgatory, I think you may have to chill there for a few lifetimes.

[scule]

You said you were christened a Catholic? Assuming you mean baptized, then you already bought your plane ticket to heaven. Baptism is how you are "saved", so as long as you ask for forgiveness at some point, you're in. Nothing to worry about.

[jjimm]

OK, so what if he never asks for forgiveness?

[Trinopus]

Dante found a way out.

Trinopus

[dropzone]

Originally posted by jjimm
OK, so what if he never asks for forgiveness?

I'd say that a just and forgiving God would see the OP as the required act of contrition. It doesn't take a lot.

OTOH, there are advantages to believing that Hell is only in ones mind. Granted, the mind of somebody bound for Hell is no place to spend any time....

[NightUK]

Class so on my death bed, I'll ask for forgiveness and I'm saved...yeah I mean baptised, see how much I know!

I lost faith at the age of 13 when I asked my priest a question he couldnt answer. I might post it as a new thread to see what people say.

[UrbanChic]

Many Christians believe the only way to avoid Hell is to accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and savior; baptism alone doesn't cut it.

Class so on my death bed, I'll ask for forgiveness and I'm saved...

What if you get hit by a car and die instantly?

[NightUK]

Then after every sin I'll ask for forgiveness?

[jjimm]

Originally posted by dropzone
I'd say that a just and forgiving God would see the OP as the required act of contrition. It doesn't take a lot.

So why bother going to the church and confessing and all that? Nor does there seem to be any need for the Last Rites either, if He's that nice!

[CalMeacham]

According to the catechisms I was taught, if you die with a Mortal Sin on your soul, you get the oone-way ticket to Hell for eternity. If you're lucky enough to have confessed and been forgiven, then you get a Get Out of Hell Free card. Except to the period you have to spend in Purgatory for temporal punishment that hasn't been erased.

It all seems so incredibly arbitray -- If you die after a complete and heartfelt confession, you're saved, no matter how bad a life you've lead; die on your way home from committing a mortal sin, and you're screwed, no matter how exemplary your life otherwise -- that I have difficulty in believing it myself, and in believing that any thinking and compassionate person could accept it uncritically.


Me, I'm going to Agnostic Heaven. We're never sure if we're there or not, 'cause we can't prove it.

[Skammer]

Originally posted by NightUK
Then after every sin I'll ask for forgiveness?

Implicit in asking forgiveness is an attitude of repentance -- turning away from your wrongdoing. If you ask for forgiveness but continue in your sin, you haven't repented, and you're not contrite, so your request was ingenuous.

[Skammer]

Wait... do I mean disgenuous?

[ResIpsaLoquitor]

Let's clarify something for the Catholic standpoint: dying with a mortal sin on your soul is not prima facie evidence that one is going to hell. An important factor is whether the person is penitent at the time of death.

Consider: you commit a mortal sin, realize your error, and hop in the car to drive to the confessional. (Interesting point: confession doesn't work over the phone.) You're praying Hail Marys on the way, but you're unfortunately killed by a drunken idiot who's driving while talking on a cellphone shortly before you can make it to the confessional.

Going to hell? Not likely. I've always understood that having the penitential spirit will save you in that situation. (I imagine that there are those of you asking, "OK, so why go to confession?" The short answer is that forgiveness still requires the active *act* of seeking forgiveness; that is, going directly to God and asking for it. Hence, Catholics are expected to go seek forgiveness from a Priest, who is considered God's duly authorized agent on Earth.)

[smiling bandit]

You said you were christened a Catholic? Assuming you mean baptized, then you already bought your plane ticket to heaven. Baptism is how you are "saved", so as long as you ask for forgiveness at some point, you're in. Nothing to worry about.

What catholic church did you go to? This is most definitely not what I;'ve heard in my catechism.

[Joe Random]

Originally posted by ResIpsaLoquitor
The short answer is that forgiveness still requires the active *act* of seeking forgiveness; that is, going directly to God and asking for it.

In that case, wouldn't it make more sense to pray to God for forgiveness than to confess to a member of the clergy?

[dropzone]

Originally posted by jjimm
So why bother going to the church and confessing and all that? Nor does there seem to be any need for the Last Rites either, if He's that nice!

(Do you guys in the UK play Charades? I'm tapping my nose.) We Lutherans don't consider either a sacrament. Confession can be done at any time by the realization that you have done wrong, a sincere commitment to do better, and restitution for any injury you caused. However, there is an understanding that we, as humans, are imperfect and the occasional screwup will happen and God is understanding about it.

There were theological reasons I left The Mother Church. For instance, I never thought Hell, as the ultimate home for the lion's share of humanity, was consistent with a just and forgiving God. Purgartory was made up in late Roman times. For NightUK to live in fear of eternity in Hell because of a few youthful indiscretions comes from an upbringing in a belief system I was also raised in but now find repulsive.

[UrbanChic]

Me, I'm going to Agnostic Heaven. We're never sure if we're there or not, 'cause we can't prove it.

Cal, I'm adding this to my list of sigs to borrow if I ever start using sigs again.

[Svt4Him]

I think you will need to seperate doctrines of a denomination from Biblical truth. Nor from Ray Comfort:

"How can you know that you are saved?"

A two-year-old boy was once staring at a heater, fascinated by its bright orange glow. His father saw him and warned, "Don’t touch that heater, son. It may look pretty, but it’s hot." The little boy believed him, and moved away from the heater. Some time later, after his father had left the room, the boy thought, "I wonder if it really is hot." He then reached out to touch it and see for himself. The second his flesh burned, he stopped believing it was hot; he now knew it was hot! He had moved out of the realm of belief into the realm of experience.

Christians believed in God’s existence before their conversion. However, when they obeyed the Word of God, turned from their sins, and embraced Jesus Christ, they stopped merely believing. The moment they reached out and touched the heater bar of God’s mercy, they moved out of belief into the realm of experience. This experience is so radical, Jesus referred to it as being "born again." The Bible says that those who don’t know God are spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1; 4:18). We are born with physical life, but not spiritual life. Picture unbelievers as corpses walking around who, by repenting and placing their faith in Christ, receive His very life. There is a radical difference between a corpse and a living, breathing human, just as there is when sinners pass from spiritual death to life. The apostle Paul said if you are "in Christ," you are a brand new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Those who now have God’s Spirit living in them will love what He loves and desire to do His will; they will have a hunger for His Word, a love for other believers, and a burden for the lost. The Holy Spirit also confirms in their spirit that they are now children of God (Romans 8:16). Those who believe on the name of the Son of God can know that they have eternal life (1 John 5:12,13).

Paul wrote to the church at Corinth, "My speech and my preaching were not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God" (1 Corinthians 2:4,5). What Paul was saying was, "I deliberately didn’t talk you into your faith, but I let God’s power transform you." He didn’t reach them through an intellectual assent, but through the realm of personal experience.

Suppose two people—a heater manufacturer and a skin specialist—walked into the room just after that child had burned his hand on the heater. Both assured the boy that he couldn’t possibly have been burned. But all the experts, theories, and arguments in the world will not dissuade that boy, because of his experience. Those who have been transformed by God’s power need never fear scientific or other arguments, because the man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an argument. "For our gospel came not to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance . . ." (1 Thessalonians 1:5).

[Joe Random]

Originally posted by Svt4Him
the man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an argument.

So I guess a schizophrenic who hears his dog telling him to kill people really is in possession of a talking dog, then? He did experience the dog talking, after all.

Experiences can be false. People can misinterpret what they experience, or experience things that aren't real. People can be deluded by others, or even self-deluded.

Conclusion: A sound argument trumps an experience every time.

[Dogface]

Extremism in favor of "a sound argument" is also flawed. All "sound" arguments must be based on premises, and if the premises are false, then the conclusions will be false--if the argument is sound! It is possible, at any given moment, to pick a time in our past wherein someone's true experience (or at least experience that we would consider true today) would be defeatable by a "sound argument", since the paradigm of that day essentially denied both the truth and any possibility of proof of the experience a priori

Consider the history of "racial science", for example. During parts of our history, the "sound arguments" were, by our standards, in direct contradiction against many direct experiences.

[Joe Random]

Originally posted by Dogface
Extremism in favor of "a sound argument" is also flawed.

True. But it seems that a sound argument tends to have a higher probability of being correct in most things, since it tempers experience with reasoning.

More importantly, if someone who bases their beliefs on "sound arguments" has reached an incorrect conclusion (because of faulty premises), then future information that corrects those premises will lead to the person reaching a "better" conclusion.

Someone who bases their beliefs solely on what they have experienced will keep believing something that is false no matter what new information (short of a conflicting experience) that they are presented with.

[Guinastasia]

Originally posted by smiling bandit
What catholic church did you go to? This is most definitely not what I;'ve heard in my catechism.

It's not Catholic teaching. That's a Protestant belief.

[panache45]

BREAKING NEWS:

There is not a shred of evidence that Hell exists. And if it does, there is not a shred of evidence regarding what beliefs or behavior will land you there.

I don't know, and neither do you.

[DreadCthulhu]

Just find Benny, he will lead you out of hell.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Christians believed in God’s existence before their conversion. However, when they obeyed the Word of God, turned from their sins, and embraced Jesus Christ, they stopped merely believing. The moment they reached out and touched the heater bar of God’s mercy, they moved out of belief into the realm of experience.

What differentiates this "experience" from the experience of those who have seen Krishna work in their lives, or who know with absolute certainty that there is no God but Allah and Mohammed is His prophet, or who have awakened from the illusion of the ego to the true realization of Nirvana? How can you prove that your experience is any more valid than the thousands of other experiences with completely different gods?

[j666]

Probably not, you seem like a nice person.

But a bit of a snob about prostitution. Do you really belive that some-one who 'sins' (different argument) just for a bit of fun is better than a hard-working working girl, trying to earn a living?

[jjimm]

That's the second time I've seen that heater bar parable from Svt4Him, and it's as unconvincing as it was the last time. For the reasons Diogenes gives - why might the child not instead be burnt by the fire of Buddhist enlightenment, or indeed disbelief? It's also presented with the usual self-referential Bible quoting that ain't going to convince anyone who doesn't already believe the bible is the inerrant word of God (I guess this might work on other Christians if you're trying to move them towards your branch of Christianity), but to be honest, I could sling bits of the Bhagavad Gita at you to justify believe in Hindusim. It's also unconvincing for the major fact that it's such a weak analogy.

But finally, likening people who disagree with your religion to 'corpses' is not going to win you any friends. If I were to liken Christians to deluded clowns walking around with red noses and silly wigs until they embrace atheism - and atheism helps them out of their comedy car and takes off their oversized footwear for them - I'd be jumped on with howls of protest from all sides.

[Mangetout]

Back to the OP; the question is unanswerable unless you first frame it by specifying whose opinion you would like on the matter.

Otherwise, it's a bit like asking "If I bought a sandwich, what would be the filling?"

[vanilla]

Originally posted by panache45
BREAKING NEWS:

There is not a shred of evidence that Hell exists. And if it does, there is not a shred of evidence regarding what beliefs or behavior will land you there.

I don't know, and neither do you.

But there is!!!!!
Remember? They have a tape recording of it!

[Dogface]

Originally posted by Joe Random
More importantly, if someone who bases their beliefs on "sound arguments" has reached an incorrect conclusion (because of faulty premises), then future information that corrects those premises will lead to the person reaching a "better" conclusion.

Unless said person dismisses this "information" because it is a mere "experience".

[Dogface]

My own Church treats this question thus:

We cannot exclude the possibility that someone will be saved outside the Church. However, Orthdoxy offers most people a better chance than they would have on their own or with another group.

[Shade]

Originally posted by dropzone
I'd say that a just and forgiving God would see the OP as the required act of contrition. It doesn't take a lot.

IANAC but does he need to regret any of those one-night stands and drug taking? I don't think it's clear from his post that he did. (Obviously God would know if does, but we wouldn't.)

[kniz]

Originally posted by jjimm
So why bother going to the church and confessing and all that? Nor does there seem to be any need for the Last Rites either, if He's that nice!

How about the possibility that all of the other conditions, such as Last Rites, exist only for the preservation of organized religion?

[LifeInHIM86]

NightUK, as it's been said before on here, we don't really know by whose standard you're asking us to measure. I will give you what I live by.

Also, as jjiimm said, there is way too much

self-referential Bible quoting that ain't going to convince anyone who doesn't already believe the bible is the inerrant word of God

in the world. Judging from this thread, you don't accept the Bible that way. Nevertheless, you asked for our beliefs on the topic, so I'll tell you what I've inferred from Biblical text - not because I believe it will make you believe anything you don't now, but because you or someone else might find it interesting. Hopefully I can bring in a perspective a bit less biased toward any denomination.

I think I'm going to focus more on the question "who is going to heaven?" rather than the question "are you, specifically, going to hell?", as definining hell is a whole nother issue that I'm not fully prepared to deal with at the moment. Hope that's alright with you.

Perhaps the best place for me to begin is Mark 16. Verse 16 (NIV) says

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Now might be a good time for me to point out that the greek word from which we derive "baptize" and "baptism" and the like, baptizo, if I'm remembering correctly, means "to immerse". This verse basically excludes anyone who is not immersed and/or does not believe. Baptism apart from a knowledge of what one is doing, and why, and a desire to follow Christ, does no good.

Belief spreads much more than to "I believe," as well. In the book of James, chapter 2, James says

some parts I picked out between verses 14 and 26
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds?....Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do....[Abraham's] faith was made complete by what he did....As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Faith is not just a statement of "I believe" but a way of living that shows that you believe. It means avoiding sin, but fessing up when you do sin, and fleeing from doing it again the next time. In Matthew's account of Mark chapter 16, Jesus says

Matthew 28:19-20
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

Notice the "teaching them to obey everything." Christianity is not a one night, one week, one month, or one year commitment - it is a commitment to an entire life of trying to be Christ-like.

A good Bible example of a conversion is in the book of Acts. I won't quote the entire thing here, but I'm particularly looking at 2:14-47. In this passage, Peter preaches to people, and they are convicted that there must be some course of action appropriate to what they've heard. When they ask Peter, he tells them to "repent and be baptized." (v. 38).

In v. 41, those who accepted what Peter preached were baptized, and 42-48 tells us that they continued in a changed lifestyle of selflessness, fellowship, and praise.

How does that translate to modern conversion? Well, the steps I see taking place in this account and in many others (some others that are very good to look at as an intro are Acts 8:26-40, 16:29-34, 22:16) are these.[list=1][*]First, the people heard the message.[*]Then, they indicated their belief in it,[*]then confessed - not every sin, but that they were sinners, and that Jesus is Lord.[*]Next, they repented (literally: turned from) their old sins,[*]were baptized into Christ,[*]and continued as new people (2 Corinthians 5:17).[/list=1]
This is by no means an exhaustive list of relevant scriptures, but I'd say it's a pretty good start as to who the Bible says is a Christian/going to heaven.

I'm guessing I opened another can of worms by bringing up the question of the necessity of baptism for salvation. I'm not intending to hijack here, but I won't be at all surprised if this heads onto a tangent.

Hope I said that in a way that makes sense. I'm happy to clarify or expand anything.

[size=1]here's hoping that I done good with my first GD post![/size=1]

[RoundGuy]

I'm guessing I opened another can of worms by bringing up the question of the necessity of baptism for salvation.

Well, on a religion board it probably would have -- but here among the heathens, it merely raises an eyebrow or two. More important to us is the question of why we should believe that salvation is necessary at all.

here's hoping that I done good with my first GD post!

Very respectable, considering the position from which you start. Unfortunately, if history is any indication, your username hints of a future road that will be a bit....well.....bumpy.

[LifeInHIM86]

Roundguy,

I assumed, from some things said earlier in the thread, that at least some of the posters adhered the the religions/denominations they spoke of. Now I'm seeing how I wasn't necessarily right about that - sorry if my info was irrelevant.

Unfortunately, if history is any indication, your username hints of a future road that will be a bit....well.....bumpy.

Do you mean that my username itself will be a problem, or just that many who say they are Christians don't fare so well in the GD area? If it is the latter, I hope to defy that tradition; if the former, I'll change the name if it would help. I don't think my name should affect the way any of my GD posts are received, but I do see how it could.

[j666]

Originally posted by kniz
How about the possibility that all of the other conditions, such as Last Rites, exist only for the preservation of organized religion?

They exist for the comfort of the dying and their loved ones. I don't think that is a trivial need.

[RoundGuy]

If it is the latter, I hope to defy that tradition;

I hope you do. It would be a nice change of pace.

[Guinastasia]

Originally posted by Dogface
My own Church treats this question thus:

We cannot exclude the possibility that someone will be saved outside the Church. However, Orthdoxy offers most people a better chance than they would have on their own or with another group.

Yeah, that's pretty much the Catholic point of view too-only they say the Catholic point of view offers the BEST chance. It's just not the ONLY one.

[merqutio]

Originally posted by NightUK


So my question is this. If Hell does exist will I be doomed there for eternity?

From what religious viewpoint are you asking?

[look!ninjas]

[hijack, vaguely related to OP]
This one is for the Catholics. Say I'm a Catholic - baptized, confirmed, all of it. I've just committed a mortal sin, but I'm not repentent. However, I happen to be wearing a scapular (why? I don't know. I just am.) I get hit by a car, and die without ever confessing my sin. Does the scapular send me to Heaven? Do I still have to go to Purgatory? Or do I go to Hell anyway?
[/end hijack]

[Roches]

Most Christian sects seem to subscribe to one of the following viewpoints on the afterlife:

1. Most Protestants: Eternal punishment or eternal reward.
2. Catholics: Temporary punishment followed by eternal reward, or eternal punishment, or eternal reward -- though it's probably more complicated than that, as everything Catholic is. =)
3. Some liberal Protestants: Eternal reward only; hell is figurative.
4. "Others": Something else, like resurrection to paradise on earth, or eternal death, or ascension to heaven for a pre-chosen 144,000 (Jehovah's Witnesses) or the very esoteric LDS afterlife system.

Some things to consider for those who believe in eternal Hell:

- Most cultures believe that punishment should fit the crime. The Judeo-Christian God seems to support this; see Exodus 21:23-25, or Sections 196 and 200 of Hammurabi's Code -- "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth". What offense could merit an eternity spent in horrible suffering? Does genocide? Murder? A single lie? Calling someone a fool (see Matthew 5:22, 23:17)?

- If God is love (1 John 4:8, John 3:16, Romans 5:8), then why would he condemn people to eternal suffering, even for minor offenses? Suppose that it is granted that one cannot enter Heaven unless they are Christians (e.g. Matthew 18:3) or at least free of sin (e.g. Matthew 5:19). Why, then, must there be no other possibility but for those who do not meet those requirements to suffer infinitely?

- Why is the Bible inconsistent on what warrants entry into Heaven and what warrants Hell? (There are examples of this throughout the New Testament, particularly in Matthew.)

- The Bible is very sparse in its description of Hell. The word "hell" appears 54 times in the NIV, 15 of which are in the New Testament. The only real description of Hell is in Revelation, while the rest of the New Testament mostly describes activities that lead to or away from it. What is Hell like? Is it just a lake of fire, as described in Revelation 21:8? Or is it a more elaborate place of torture, such as was described in later, non-canonical Christian writings?

- Could the fact that the description of Hell evolved greatly from the Gospels ("fire", late 1st century) to Revelation ("lake of fire", etc., circa AD 100) to Dante's Inferno mean something? Did early Christians perhaps find that the threat of Hell was a useful conversion tool?

- There are some people who have become Christians only because of the fear of Hell. Is there faith genuine? As an analogy, if someone is forced to convert to a religion by the threat of violence, as has happened countless times in history, are they a true adherent of that religion? What happens to, say, Christians who are forced to convert to another religion? Compare this with what happens to those who die for their faith. What happens to non-Christians who are forced to convert to Christianity? Are they saved? Compare this with what happens if they choose to die for their faith. What does this mean about dying for one's beliefs?

[CigaretteRepairman]

Originally posted by NightUK
I was christened a catholic, I have no real belief in religion but would say I am a good hearted man. I'm 26, I've grew up in a rough area of the UK and somehow managed never to steel, never to attack or purposely hurt someone unless I was attacked first (only happend twice), I've had sex before marriage and numerous one night stands. I've never paid for sex or been paid. I've taken drugs for personal use but never encouraged on others, I've even seen someone drop belongings (once about £100) and chased the person up to pass them there money. I've never prayed for 3 years and that was only once and askin for the girl of my dreams at the time (which came true suprisingly). I over tip people even if I cant afford it. I respect my friends and would never lie intentionally to them.

So my question is this. If Hell does exist will I be doomed there for eternity?

Disregarding all the FLUFF™ on the topic such as what Catholics or various Protestant denominations have to say about it, according to the Bible, you would go to hell.

[RoundGuy]

according to the Bible, you would go to hell.

Why?

And, what is hell, exactly, "according to the Bible"?

[CigaretteRepairman]

Originally posted by RoundGuy
Why?

And, what is hell, exactly, "according to the Bible"?

If you read his text you will see kind of a brief summary of what he has done throughout his life. Nothing that he mentioned has anything to do with salvation and if you don't actively participate in the whole salvation plan thing then you are going to hell by default. If you believe that, based on his post, that he would be going to heaven according to the Bible, then about 95% or more of the world's population would be going to heaven if the only qualification to get in was living an okay life that didn't involve doing anything too terrible combined with some occasional "nice" deeds. As it turns out, the Bible tells us that very few people are actually going to Heaven:

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Now, how about people who have done many great works, and perhaps have even prophesied in Christ's name? They would be a shoe-in for Heaven right?

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The Bible endorsed method for getting to heaven is summed up pretty good with this quote attributed to Christ:

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

As far as what hell is "according to the Bible", here is the most descriptive passage about hell in the Bible:

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[RoundGuy]

if you don't actively participate in the whole salvation plan thing then you are going to hell by default

here is the most descriptive passage about hell in the Bible:

I find it incomprehensible that anyone could actually believe in, and worship, such a sadistic, depraved, and malevolent creator.

You have my sincerest sympathies.

[CigaretteRepairman]

Originally posted by RoundGuy
I find it incomprehensible that anyone could actually believe in, and worship, such a sadistic, depraved, and malevolent creator.

You have my sincerest sympathies.

Keep your emotions to yourself. You may note that any discussion of the Bible that I do is in an "according to the Bible" fashion. What it says as a whole can be debated, your emotions based on the text can not be debated, neither do I wish to try.

[RoundGuy]

Keep your emotions to yourself. You may note that any discussion of the Bible that I do is in an "according to the Bible" fashion.

But, in the absence of logic and rational thinking (which is impossible in an "according to the Bible" discussion), what else do we have but emotion?

[CigaretteRepairman]

Originally posted by RoundGuy
But, in the absence of logic and rational thinking (which is impossible in an "according to the Bible" discussion), what else do we have but emotion?

What difference does it make what piece of text is being discussed? Or what movie is being discussed for that matter? Whether you agree with the text or not, the fact that the interpretation of the text is crystal clear in certain aspects remains unchanged.