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#1
09-18-2003, 08:06 PM
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Lawyer Dopers: any chance I could get in legal trouble here?
To give just the bare bones of the situation:
I'm enrolling in a rather costly course, I applied through the school for a student loan. So, the school sent my loan application off to a few banking institutions to see who (if any) will give me a student loan... So far, so good! I got a few letters from banks saying that they had denied my loan application, or that they would not loan me the full amount, etc. (reason: I'm currently unemployed, and have little credit history here in the US, having spent the last 8 years living and working overseas...). No surprise, I didn't expect that getting the loan would be easy given my limited credit history. So today I got a call from a bank loan officer. Loan officer: "We're trying to verify your employment, but I can't seem to get ahold of anyone at the phone number provided." Me: "  Huh? I'm unemployed... it says so right there on the loan application."Loan Officer: "Er. I have a payslip here that says you earned $1500 during 2 weeks in August working at company name." Me: "Me?" Loan Officer: "Yup, you! It's got your name on it, and your social security number and everything." (we verified that all the info. on the payslip seemed to belong to me... correct social sec, etc.) Me: "I have no idea! I'm NOT employed, and that's what I wrote on the loan application... and I've never even heard of that company!" So I called the school and spoke to the guy who filed the loan apps for me... he has no idea what is going on, but he'll call me back. A while later, he calls back: Someone there (he says a new secretary) took it upon themselves to forge a fake payslip from a fictional company and, I assume, change the loan application documents that I had filled out, in order to push my loan application through. *I'll give you a second... go back and read that bolded part again, and tell me if that makes ANY sense whatsoever to you!* I'm speechless. The guy at the school says he'll talk to the loan officer, and get back to me tomorrow. I've been thinking about this for a couple of hours now, and I want to know: is there ANY possible way I can get in legal trouble over this? Will it adversly affect my (already pathetic) credit rating? Help! 
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#2
09-18-2003, 08:12 PM
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Well, if the guy at the school admits that, get it in writing. Then you should be able to clear yourself if a question comes up.
__________________
"One never knows, do one?" Provider of quality fantasy and science fiction since 1982.
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#3
09-18-2003, 08:19 PM
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IANAL, but you weren't the one who did something wrong - somebody else forged documents to make their loan company some bucks. You didn't ask for it to be done, and as soon as you were asked about it you set the loan officer who called you straight. I certainly don't see how anyone could try and get you in legal trouble over that.
As far as how it affects your credit rating, I would strongly suggest that you get a written statement from the loan company explaining what happened - you don't want "Denied for loan because of insufficient credit history" to become "Denied for loan because of false statements on application". You should also check with the three credit-reporting companies (TRW, Experian and one other as I recall) and make sure that this doesn't make it onto your file. If they put anything incorrect there, you can alert them to it and they have something like 30 days to either provide evidence for the charge or remove it. This part isn't about whether you did anything wrong, it's just about covering your butt. My experience with credit companies is that persistence pays when you need a mistake corrected. Good luck!
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#4
09-18-2003, 08:19 PM
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IANAL.
Did you keep a photocopy of the loan application before you turned it in? I suggest you also begin a diary, accounting for everything on this issue. Make note of the date/time, name/title of everyone you speak with on the issue, try to keep as close as possible to exactly what is said to you, and how you respond, etc. I would go in person to the school and ask for a copy of the loan application. If you completed it by hand, chances are changes to it would be in something other than your hand (a good reason never to have someone complete such an application for you!).
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#5
09-18-2003, 09:14 PM
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Thanks guys!
I do, of course, have photocopies of the original loan application(s). Tomorrow I'll try to get a written statement of what happened from the guy at the school as well as the loan officer at the bank. Thanks for the advice!
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#6
09-18-2003, 09:20 PM
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Thanks guys!
I do, of course, have photocopies of the original loan application(s). Tomorrow I'll try to get a written statement of what happened from the guy at the school as well as the loan officer at the bank. Thanks for the advice!
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#7
09-19-2003, 12:39 AM
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If you don't mind my asking what is this "course" that this "college" is so desperate to get your cash for, that they will doctor your financial application? BTW I believe the "new secretary did this" story about as much as the tooth fairy. This is something someone with an overwhelming vested interest in getting the money will do. It might be the guy you talked to who did this, but it ain't a hourly secretary.
Be careful this rings all kinds of "scam" bells.
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#8
09-19-2003, 02:38 AM
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Quote:
The course is an MCSA/MCSE certification, with an added CCNA and Security+ cert to boot. (I'm changing careers to get into something more interesting to me... I've already completed one certification at this school, and I'm satisfied that the school itself is legit. I'm aware that there are many "schools" churning out computer certs quickly with no real academic qualifications, but this school is not one of them. The school itself is legit.) As for the "new secretary" story; I am also having a hard time swallowing that! I hope tomorrow to get a better sense of who did what. The guy who processed my loan apps I have known for several months, and while I wouldn't say that I know him well, I have a very hard time believing that he did this... there may be more to the story than I got today... When this happened earlier today, I was too stunned to intelligently react or ask questions. I will post here tomorrow with whatever info I learn...
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#9
09-19-2003, 06:38 AM
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Those MCSE classes are EXPENSIVE, and relatively cheap to offer. The facilities running them are sometimes of minimal size.
I'm willing to believe the organization offerring this class to you MAY in fact be composed of scammers willing to do this. IT spending in general is not at the level it used to be... they may be resorting to this to try to keep enrollment up, so as to avoid financial trouble themselves, or instructor layoffs. Wow. I'd never imagined a school, even a small trade/tech school, would try to scam the bank into giving you financial aid.
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#10
09-19-2003, 09:26 AM
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I'm looking for a cite, but I've read that some schools make most of their money off financial aid. There have been several cases of massive fraud, some with the money going straight to the schools and not the students. Let's see what I can find online.
Sounds to me like the school has done this before. I'd run away from them and find someone with a better reputation.
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#11
09-19-2003, 09:33 AM
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Some links of trade school frauds involving financial aid:
http://www.scripophily.net/progandsysin.html http://www.ed.gov/PressReleases/11-1996/1pr.html http://www.metroactive.com/papers/me...ers2-9742.html http://www.fafsa.com/references/scams.htm http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/edcams/scholarship/
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#12
09-19-2003, 11:01 AM
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Whoa! Thanks, Telemark!
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#13
09-19-2003, 11:33 AM
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Astroboy, I don't think I'd be satisfied with some supervisor just talking to the person who forged your name & falsified information on your account. There's a current case at my university where one of the finance workers got caught using other people's names to create accounts for herself. I fear what you've discovered may not be the whole thing.
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#14
09-19-2003, 03:12 PM
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OK. So I've been to the credit union and spoken with the loan officer myself. I now have copies not only of my original loan application, but the altered one and the faked payslip. I've also spoken again with the guy at the school.
Here's, apparently, what happened: there was a new secretary at the school who "fixed" my application to give me a greater chance of getting the loan (it seems that she would have gotten a commission from the processing of the loan... how much, I don't know... but there's the motive). She also faked up a payslip from the imaginary company she used on the loan app (I assume she did this when the credit union called the school looking to verify my employment). The payslip looks real! She did a good job on that, even figuring out tax deductions and everything. Fortunately, the credit union called ME when they could not get my "employer" on the phone... The secretary is now, I'm told, an ex-secretary (for which, oddly, I feel kinda bad... as irrational as that sounds.). When I talked with the loan officer in person this morning, she told me that they, initially, were going to cease doing business with the school, but after talking to the guy at the school, they were satisfied that the situation had been resolved there and would not happen again. I went over the original application (I took my copies with me) with the loan officer and compared them to the altered application. Not only did the altered one show that I was employed, but the rent I reported paying monthly had been drastically cut, and my wife had mysteriously morphed into my sibling! I'm an incesterer!! We straightened out all the errors, and I made clear to the loan officer that, should the loan be approved after all this, I did NOT want any funds released to the school without my say-so (as I'm having second thoughts about attending this school now). I talked again with the guy at the school and asked him to write down what happened and sign it for me. He said he would, and I will pick it up tomorrow. So, it looks like I'm covered! I have copies of the original apps, the altered apps, the faked payslip, and will have a signed testimony from the school tomorrow. So it appears to be all straightened out now. And, I got a call a few minutes ago from the guy at the school, who said that he had just heard that the loan had been approved! I haven't heard from the loan officer yet (she told me she'd call me when she heard, but she may be at lunch right now). So now I have to decide if I want to go to school there or not. As I said, I already have one certification that I earned at this school... I like the school, I like the teachers, and I like the facilities. I'll meet again with the guy at the school tomorrow and discuss the situation with my wife, and then make a decision. Thanks all for the advice! This seriously weirded me out yesterday!
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#15
09-19-2003, 03:30 PM
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I'd still speak to the cops about it. That "secretary" can still get hired somewhere else and do the same stunt.
I'd also go get a copy of my credit report & I'd speak with my banks about a possible identity theft.
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#17
09-19-2003, 06:20 PM
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It really reeks: of scam, of identity theft, of a number of things. Additionally, I'm really wary of a school that discusses this stuff over the telephone and is apparently "relaying information" to you on behalf of another outfit.
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#18
09-19-2003, 07:18 PM
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Out of pure curiosity, (and being a commisson paid real estate agent myself), what possible reason in this world would there be to pay an hourly secretary or office worker a "commission" for doing loan application paperwork?
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#20
09-19-2003, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
I would still be willing to bet serious cash that she was operating under orders to fudge the paperwork.
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#21
09-19-2003, 08:26 PM
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Identity theft? That's not funny.
I'll wait until I see the guy at the school tomorrow to judge if I really buy the story or not. I want to sit down with him and hear directly from him exactly what happened, and who did it. But back to the identity theft idea: how would I know if this was something to worry about or not? other than waiting to see if there are any strange dealings with my bank account or credit cards, that is? Now you all have me worried...
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#22
09-19-2003, 09:33 PM
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Have a long talk with your credit union. They are the legitimate folks in this case. Get them to do the legal legwork.
We're talking a type of fraud here. Just because things appear to be working for you -- loan approval, gonna get educated, yadda, yadda -- don't stop now in your efforts to make sure everything is all settled legally. That means it should become a state/federal legal issue. Take the credit union's lead on this. Somebody should end up doing time for this.
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#23
09-19-2003, 10:01 PM
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Good advice, Duckster, however the credit union's lead seems to be "ah! Someone screwed up and was fired... good 'nuf!"
Well, I'm looking forward to seeing the written explanation tomorrow to see if it makes more sense.
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#24
09-19-2003, 10:54 PM
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Identity theft is not funny, not funny at all.
Do not be satisfied with, "Well, someone got fired." As soon as you get some more information from the guy shoveling stuff over the phone at you, arrange a meeting--in person--with someone higher up the food chain at that school. From what you've described so far, it seems fairly obvious the phone shoveler doesn't want a whole lot of attention paid to his fiefdom. Might as well make a swing by the local DA's office or police station to see what kind of legal attention should be paid to that fiefdom also. Don't forget to make that stop at a credit bureau to (a) get a copy of your credit report and (b) put a notice on it that someone may be attempting to misuse your information.
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#25
09-20-2003, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
b) Will do! Both are on the table for Monday, as well as a swing by the bank to alert them and change my PINs etc. As for involving the police, I'm reluctant to do that... but I'll have to make a decision regarding that after I have a meeting with the guy at the school today. If I should make a police report, what would they do about it? Just keep a report on file, or what?
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#26
09-20-2003, 08:36 PM
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OK... I've just come back from having a long chat with the director of the school. I'm satisfied that it was an isolated incident, and that nothing more sinister was going on than that a new employee (who was, in fact, getting a comission for every successful loan application) altered my application to ensure her comission. She stupidly thought that no one would check out the employment, was wrong, and got caught. My application was, apparently, the first that she had altered (they have been going back through the applications filed since she was hired, and have yet to find another fraudulent one).
She was informed that she could have been charged with a crime, was fired, the passwords to computers that she had access to have been changed, the other employee who was doing the same job (and whoever replaces the woman who got fired) will no longer be getting comissions from loan applications, etc. I have a signed statement from the director of the school detailing what happened, and that I had no knowledge of the fraud. I think my butt is now sufficiently covered. I will still talk to my bank on Monday, and talk to the credit agencies to put a fraud alert flag on my account just in case! I'm still wavering about the police though... I have no desire to cause this woman any more trouble than she has already (despite being a Republican, I'm not all that hard-hearted and vengeful. Don't tell anyone, or I may have to turn in my secret decoder ring!). So one more question for you all: the entirety of my involvement with the police has been speeding tickets so I know nothing about this... can I file a report about this without actually charging the woman with a crime, or causing any trouble for the school?
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#27
09-20-2003, 08:55 PM
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Frankly, I have an extremely hard time swallowing a single word of what they told you. One single word. I just don't buy it. If they are messing as I think they are, what did you expect? That they would confess to you? They have a good story but I don't buy it. I would be talking to the police tomorrow. It makes no sense to me. I do not believe one lowly employee who has been fired is responsible.
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#28
09-20-2003, 09:49 PM
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This is not the kind of place I would be entrusting my future job skills to.
"They" who have been going through all the files are exactly the people I'd be most worried about. "So, Mr. Fox, would just go in there and count the chickens for me, so I know they're all in there?"
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#29
09-20-2003, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Playing semi-sophisticated fake paperwork games and risking the consequences of being caught defrauding a bank is not something a person does for a hundred or two in commission on a small loan. It's something someone making a decent, results based salary does. Someone like the guy you're talking to. You're being "handled".
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#30
09-20-2003, 11:55 PM
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sailor and I don't usually agree on much (if anything); however, on this we're completely in agreement. I think you're being fed a story in the hopes of you, as astro so aptly put it, being handled. The woman's supervisor was not the victim--YOU were. It was your application altered; it was your name used dishonestly. It's up to you, IMHO, to make the decision of referring it to the police. And, even without charges being pursued, having a file with the appropriate authorities will be a hedge against this happening to someone else.
It's cool the director of the school talked to you personally. What I'm wondering is why he's not hot on the theft the woman pulled.
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#31
09-21-2003, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
I still have the question, though: Can I file a police report without her being charged? I think I will speak with the police on Monday and ask what they think about it...
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#32
09-21-2003, 01:24 AM
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I agree with what Monty and sailor have said. This isn't about being Republican/hard-hearted/vengeful [/tongue-in-cheek]. False documents were intentionally submitted to encourage the credit union to loan money on false pretenses. That's pretty serious and should be drawn to the attention of the police. [Note: the above is not legal advice. I'm just telling you what I would do if I were in this situation.]
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#34
09-21-2003, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Look, secretaries have no interest in this. The "fired secretary" is most probably an invented story and she is non-existent. It just doesn't work that way. Even if it did, if my secretary was caught doing that the first thing I'd be doing is investigating all prior cases she had worked on. This is a story you are being fed. Of course they are going to tell you it is the first time it's happened. What do you expect? You have touched the tip of an iceberg and they are telling you there is nothing underneath. Every shoplifter caught in the act says it was the first time he did it. Some years ago a cop stopped me because my car did not have the required front plate. The fact is it was coming lose and I took it off intending to reinstall it but time went by and I never got around to it and it was a few months before I was busted. Of course, I told the cop it had just fallen off and he said "I thought so" in a voice which implied he did not expect me to say anything else. More people are involved and yours is not the first time they have done it and they will continue to do it as long as they can get away with it. People do not shoplift just once and they do not forge papers just once. Don't be so naive. You are not helping anybody by covering up. Not yourself and not the public. Side story: A couple years ago I went to a Kinko's and while I was waiting for a machine I discovered in the trash all sorts of cut-n-paste altered photocopies showing titles to cars, insurance papers, etc. with names and other data altered. there were at least 20 vehicles involved. A car dealer was forging all sorts of documents and the idiots had been so stupid as to leave all their evidence at the Kinko's trash from where I took it and mailed it to the police.
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#35
09-21-2003, 10:55 AM
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OK, I'm naive! As I said, it's not the first time. This is why I posted here about this, after all...
So I will go talk to the police tomorrow, as well as talk to the credit union to see why they simply let the matter drop rather than pursue charges themselves. (boy! You all certainly are a cynical bunch! But I loves ya for it!) I'll post tomorrow as to what the police have to say.
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#36
09-21-2003, 12:01 PM
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I would not advise you pursuing the matter with the credit union as you have nothing to gain tehre except being told more stories which really make no difference. They have told you their story and you are not going to get a better truth from them. I would just drop the matter with them. If you have any further contact with them and the question comes up of why you reported it to the police you can just say that for your own peace of mind and if everything is as innocent as they say then they should have no problem.
I would go to the police and just, matter of factly, tell them the story. Don't accuse, just tell the facts and leave it up to them to draw any conclusions. That is their job. They will decide if there's anything worth looking into and even if they decide there's nothing to be suspicious about you did the right thing in letting them know and you are covered in case any doubt may come up that you were a willing participant in the scheme. When you find a lump in your body you don't just ignore it and hope it is nothing. You go to the doctor and let him, the expert, tell you that it is nothing and it will go away by itself. Same thing here. If you can learn the lesson from others' experience and avoid being stung yourself, you are already ahead of those who learnt their lessons the hard way and much more ahead of those who do not learn from their experiences at all. There is nothing wrong with being trusting but be prudent and do not suspend your common sense.
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#37
09-21-2003, 12:22 PM
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Come to think of it, sailor's surely right on the bit about the secretary. Disciplinary actions--absent public court filings--are certainly covered by confidentiality laws. I really can't see someone saying, "The secretary, whom we shan't name, has been fired for violating a number of federal and state laws, not to mention good business practices. Hope you have a nice day now that we shafted you. Want a cookie on your way out?"
They're circling the wagons, Astroboy. Talk to whoever it is at the DA's office who's responsible for identity theft and/or fraud prosecutions.
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#38
09-21-2003, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
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#39
09-21-2003, 08:11 PM
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#40
09-22-2003, 05:46 AM
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I'll throw in another point supporting sailor's view that you are being fed a line of BS by people who just want you to shut up and go away.
At legitimate companies, they don't investigate, rewrite policies, and take personnel action nearly so fast. In three days, they've fired an employee, restructured the compensation plan for some category of administration personnel, and even changed all the access passwords to their financial data? From scratch? I'm sorry, there is just no way on earth they've done all this. Companies just do not move that fast. At best, they gave you an action plan and passed it off as the results of the plan. At worst (and IMHO most probable) they just came up with a story esigned to satisfy anyone who who wouldn't look behind it. In any case, IMHO they were lying to you.
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#41
09-22-2003, 06:01 AM
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Very sorry, I forgot to answer the OP, but then again your own state of knowlwdge has changed since then, Astroboy14. It's fairly certain you're in the clear here in terms of the attempted fraud.
You seem to resist the idea of talking to the cops. Ok, then talk to a lawyer. This is a serious enough issue to warrant it. Remember, even if the school is telling the truth, this "secretary" is walking around unemployed with your personal information, probably including social security number, on the tip of her tongue. I imagine she might be feeling the need for a new credit card real soon now.
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#42
09-22-2003, 05:06 PM
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OK... so I've talked to my bank regarding the security of my accounts there, placed a "fraud alert" on my credit record with Experian, Equifax, and TransUnion (just in case), and I seem to be all covered.
Also, this morning, I had a long chat with a police officer from the San Diego Financial Crime division. I told him the whole story, and he also said I seemed to be covered as far as he was concerned. He didn't suggest taking any further legal action, as the credit union involved was satisfied and was not pursuing the matter. He did suggest watching my credit record (again, just in case), but wasn't too concerned about possible identity theft. So there we have it! Another thanks for all the advice, people! I appreciate it!
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