Ancient History, I know, but....

This message is to Adam mostly, but also to those of his religion whom I may have offended in the past. I can remember, on one of my grouchier days, telling him that his religion was nothing more than a silly cult like David Koresh's and Jim Jones's, and further insulted him with other words in other posts as well.

Please understand that I am a hothead and am quick to anger. This is not in keeping with LDS behavior, and even though it may be ancient history by now, I feel I owe Adam and those of the Pentecostal Christian relgion a big apology. I had no right to say what I did, and I'm sorry for it.

No harm done Bill. Now, if you can just convince Monty to stop trying to destroy me with his evil, twisted ways, then I think we'd be all set.

Adam

------------------
"Life is hard...but God is good"

[David B]

Alright! Since Adam didn't mention me, I guess I can keep trying to destroy him with my evil, twisted ways!

[Monty]

No, Adam; it is you who is destroying yourself. But then you don't believe in the commandment against bearing false witness either. Most recent manifestation of that was the utter crapola about hearing hundred of Chaldeans speaking Chaldean.

Adam, that's between you and Monty. You'll have to work things out between yourselves.

Thanks for accepting my apology.

[AuraSeer]

Adam, that remark was hateful and uncalled-for.

Monty disagrees with you on religious topics, as do lots of other people; he's just a little more vocal about it. Like many of the rest of us, he believes that you are not just here for the debates, but rather to attempt to convert others to the particular brand of Christianity which you espouse.

Let me repeat that first sentence: Monty disagrees with the things you say. How does this constitute an attempt to destroy you? What horrendous acts has he committed, that he is such an "evil and twisted" person?

Your own Bible commands against the bearing of false witness. Is that one of the parts you haven't read?

[furt]

Gee whiz, I haven't been to the SD board in a couple of weeks, and I come back and you people are still beating the crap out of each other.

Adam-- I'm guessing you're joking with that comment, but haven't you figured out yet that it's 100% impossible for you to say that kind of thing and get cut any slack? I mean, I hate to say it, but for a lot of people here (not me, but some), your credibility is nil. These guys are never going to agree with, accept, or even listen respectfully to anything you say, ever ever ever. To be honest, you're better going somewhere else.

David and Monty--Don't you guys have anything better to do than chase this kid all over the place, hammering him everytime he opens his mouth? I mean jeez, get a life. He's 19 or 20 or something--what's your excuse?

------------------
"It all started with marbles in school..."

[Monty]

Well, gee, furt. You sure showed me. (sarcasm emoticon here)

Tell you what, soon as Adam apologizes, for real this time, about his asinine and inane statement about "Mormonism is a false religion" I might take you up on that; although I do have a life.

Apparently, he's not attacked you. Nice of you to sit on the sidelines through most of it just to show now. I think the sidelines suited you better.

Ok, Monty and I have a history. Well, not really, but I feel like the guy has it in for me. He has publicly said that he doesn't trust me one bit, and he has even recorded our IM conversations on AOL, which I think is VERY unethical. Maybe he's recorded every IM convo that he has, I don't know, but it's still not right. He regularly twists my words, and tries to trip me up. I'm just sick of it.

Monty, obviously, you're reading this, so I'm not talking behind your back. Please, I just want peace between us. Can there be a peace? I said I'm sorry before to you directly. Remember? Back when I apologized? I'll say it again, because I really want there to be peace. I'm sorry I said all those bad things about Mormonism in the past. I've not said anything bad since my other apology, so, you know that I'm sincere. I just feel like you've done me wrong Monty. All I want is to post in peace.

Furt: I know they don't respect me one tiny bit. That's why I'm not preaching anymore. (Even though the urge to do so in incredible) They'll get no condemnation from me. Just a mouthful of my opinions, which, I'm sure they can swallow.

Auraseer: I said that Monty's ways were evil, not Monty himself. But anyway, I was angry, and not serious. His ways aren't "evil," and Monty knows it. Right Monty?

Adam



------------------
"Life is hard...but God is good"

[Monty]

Got news for you Adam; I record all IM conversations automatically. What I don't do is lie about them. You are a proven liar.

[Monty]

Oh, what the hey; here's a follow-up. Not only I, but AOL, considers IM and email to be correspondence; therefore, I'm well within my rights and within ethical rules of behaviour to keep a record of all such.

Ok Monty, I figured you kept all IM on record(see my post). That really isn't the heart of the matter anyway. I guess your responses mean that there can't be peace between us.

I don't care when David, Phil, Waste, Rich, Slythe, and the rest of the gang talk smack about me, because they aren't Christian. They can say whatever they please, and it won't bother me. But you argued with me that you are Christian, and that's why it bothers me when you won't accept my apology. You hold me responsible for "lying." (I'd like to see proof that I've lied recently) That's fine, and when I lie, I'll admit it.

So, I think I should ask you to follow the Scriptures, and "Therefore let us stop passing judgement on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way." Romans 14:13

I'm extending an olive branch. No judgement, no stumbling blocks, from you, or ME. Please.

Adam

------------------
"Life is hard...but God is good"

[David B]

ARG said:

They'll get no condemnation from me. Just a mouthful of my opinions, which, I'm sure they can swallow.

Believe me, Adam, we don't swallow anything you say.

I don't care when David, Phil, Waste, Rich, Slythe, and the rest of the gang talk smack about me, because they aren't Christian. They can say whatever they please, and it won't bother me.

Funny, it sure looks like it bothers you a lot of the time, especially when we ask you to question your own beliefs or point out how insecure you seem in those beliefs...

[Falcon]

You know, I was going to stay out of this, but...

Adam said:

I don't care when David, Phil, Waste, Rich, Slythe, and the rest of the gang talk smack about me, because they aren't Christian. They can say whatever they please, and it won't bother me.

Hmmm...does it bother you that jodih and I argue with you, then? Because we're Christians who disagree with you on damn near everything. And Adam, what David and company have said *has* bothered you. Maybe not as much as what Monty's said (which I agree with, btw), but it's bothered you just the same.

[GLWasteful]

Adam:

I don't care when David, Phil, Waste, Rich, Slythe, and the rest of the gang talk smack about me, because they aren't Christian. They can say whatever they please, and it won't bother me.

Is that what I've been doing? "Talking smack"? It's not smack, Adam, to point out the wrongheadedness of your so-called 'arguments', nor is it smack to tell you that what you claim to believe, some of us find ridiculous.

All we are doing is presenting the truth as we see it, and as it has been established by numerous others. You, on the other hand, are simply parroting what you have been told by those within the tight confines of your church.

Waste
Flick Lives!

Guys, I'm talking about recent stuff here. No Falcon, you don't bother me, and I haven't even seen Jodih for many weeks. Even Bill, who has argued strongly with me in the past, originated this thread with an apology to me, and others.

I think I'll stop mentioning names, because I'd have to mention the entire SD community if I want to cover everyone who's said a word to me. Let's just say that I'm wating for Monty's response to my latest post.

Adam

------------------
"Life is hard...but God is good"

Hey Waste, long time no see. You just reminded me of something. I DO take offense when anyone talks about "smack" about God, and Jesus. Or when they totally misinterpret Scripture, or give misinformation about Pentecostal beliefs. I just can't tolerate it sometimes. It's happened before, and it even happened with you Waste.

But when someone attacks ME, I usually let it roll off my back.

Adam

------------------
"Life is hard...but God is good"

[VegForLife]

I DO take offense when anyone talks about "smack" about God, and Jesus.

Geez, I didn't even know they were junkies. . .

But when someone attacks ME, I usually let it roll off my back.

You might want to consider doing that when someone attacks God, as well: I hear he's not currently in the market for a defense attorney. . .

Rich

[VegForLife]

I don't care when David, Phil, Waste, Rich, Slythe, and the rest of the gang talk smack about me, because they aren't Christian.

By the way, Adam, by your definition of the word, I believe that both Phil and I are Christian, though neither of us uses this moniker now. I don't know about the rest of the bunch, and, most likely, neither do you.

Rich

[Jodi]

I'm still here, Adam, I've just concluded it is more productive to bang my head against the wall than to try to discuss religion with you. I respect your right to believe what you want, but I have nothing but contempt for your arrogant judging of everyone who doesn't agree with you. I also find it difficult to converse with you because you apparently have problems in making or following a logical argument. David B. and Phil (and others) may disagree with my beliefs, but at least I can discuss the idea and relative merits of belief systems with them -- I can't with you. I can also discuss other topics with them; you apparently limit your posts to religious topics, and since I've decided not to discuss religion with you, you naturally haven't seen much of me lately -- and are unlikely to see much of me in the future, either.

Oh, and Falcon, I doubt very much that Adam would admit that you and I are really Christians; he's told me in the past that I am not.

[SkeptiJess]

Hey Waste, long time no see. You just reminded me of something. I DO take offense when anyone talks about "smack" about God, and Jesus. Or when they totally misinterpret Scripture,

One person's 'misinterpretation' can be another's interpretation, you know. Just because someone disagrees with you interpretation of something (even the bible) doesn't make THEM wrong.

or give misinformation about Pentecostal beliefs. I just can't tolerate it sometimes. It's happened before, and it even happened with you Waste. - Adam

And yet, you don't hesitate to give misinformation about other faiths (catholicism, the LDS, wiccans, etc. ad infinatum). Even when corrected, you continue to spout the same lies. I say 'lies' because 'misinformation' indicates a mistake, while your statements tend to be willful.

Play fair, Adam.

------------------
Jess
Full of 'satiable curtiosity

[VegForLife]

I'm still here

Glad to hear it, jodih. When you dropped out of the "Black Miss America" thread, I thought you were gone as well. Maybe that was another "brick wall" thing, I know it felt like it to me. . .

Rich

[Monty]

Adam: Jess pretty well summed it up. I don't feel actual enmity towards you; what it is, htough, is astonishment at your actions and pity towards you.

Pity because you refuse to accept that others ideas may be valid. Astonishment that you are incapable of understanding the English definition of that English word "may."

Why not admit that what you posted before was not only mean but also wrong? Admit that you've no training in what you've been espousing--not even informal training.

As I've told you before, I'm not adverse to encouraging you and helping you to understand the differences between Religion, Theology, and Catechism.

I await your admission that others, such as LDS, are Christians. We'll go from there.

Waste: So, making fun of God, for you, is like me making fun of the Easter bunny right? That's a fine kettle of fish.

I did, indeed, poke fun at your god, all in the process of poking fun at you. If your god is so insecure that he can't take a shot or two from li'l ol' me, who thinks that he's a figment of your imagination, then you should maybe look into a stronger deity, one with more self-worth.

Waste, do you like it when someone makes fun of your father? Or when someone pokes fun at your best friend? Indeed, when you make fun of God, it affects me, because as a Christian, I have a strong relationship with Him.

Rich: I'm not sure what you're definition of Christian is, but I know for a fact that Phil Dennison is NOT Christian. Right Phil? He WAS Christian, but no longer is. and if you ARE a Christian, then I apologize for my error.

Jodih: Good to see you're still around. We had our spats, and I hope that you can one day talk to me, without fear that I'll block you out, or be rude to you. If you check out MPSIMS, and GQ, you'll see that I can, and do post stuff that has nothing to do with religion.

Jess:

And yet, you don't hesitate to give misinformation about other faiths (catholicism, the LDS, wiccans, etc. ad infinatum). Even when corrected, you continue to spout the same lies. I say 'lies' because 'misinformation' indicates a mistake, while your statements tend to be willful.

Again, this is my past. There's no lies coming from me anymore. I admit to my mistakes. And BTW, I never lied about Wiccans. I mearely asked a few questions...you can even ask Auraseer.
And, I do play fair...or at least, I'm really trying.

Monty:

I await your admission that others, such as LDS, are Christians.

I plead the Fifth. We will always disagree Monty. But it doesn't mean that there can't be peace, or like Jess says, that we can "play fair."

Adam

------------------
"Life is hard...but God is good"

[Monty]

Sorry, Adam; on this issue you can not plead the fifth. Answer "yes" or "no" and provide basis for your answer: "Are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints themselves Christians?" (bolding mine)

Answer "yes" or "no" and provide basis for your answer: "Are members of the Roman Catholic Church themselves Christians?"

I'm not going to discuss this with you further Monty. Please stop trying to trap me. No more stumbling blocks.

Adam

------------------
"Life is hard...but God is good"

[AuraSeer]

Adam, neither of those two questions constitutes a trap. You have stated your opinions on both topics before, in multiple other threads; here, Monty is simply asking you to clearly restate what you believe.

(BTW, because by name was mentioned, I'll say FTR that I don't recall Adam making any incorrect assertions about Wicca. Or any assertions about it at all, CTTOI...)

------------------
Of course I don't fit in; I'm part of a better puzzle.

Like I said, I plead the Fifth.



------------------
"Life is hard...but God is good"

[GLWasteful]

I DO take offense when anyone talks about "smack" about God, and Jesus. Or when they totally misinterpret Scripture, or give misinformation about Pentecostal beliefs. I just can't tolerate it sometimes. It's happened before, and it even happened with you Waste.

So, according to Adam's world view, if I make fun of his deity, then I am to cease and desist. If, however, he makes claims that my actions are controlled by Satan, then I am to meekly accept such? Ditto for him calling me deluded? Well, piss off, son. You and your beliefs are what I would call superstitious on a good day, something less kind and more pointed on a bad.

I did, indeed, poke fun at your god, all in the process of poking fun at you. If your god is so insecure that he can't take a shot or two from li'l ol' me, who thinks that he's a figment of your imagination, then you should maybe look into a stronger deity, one with more self-worth.

Waste
Flick Lives!

What is this, a court of law or an informal message board? Monty, I don't think Adam would believe that the LDS are Christians if Jesus himself came down and told him so. I think you're wasting your time.

[GLWasteful]

Adam:

So, making fun of God, for you, is like me making fun of the Easter bunny right? That's a fine kettle of fish.

What?

Honestly, Adam, I do not care if someone makes fun of my father. Hell, I only met the guy once. Seemed like a nice enough fella, but more than capable of taking care of himself. As far as my best friend? If I can poke fun at my best friend, why on earth should I care if someone else does it? My best friend is a grownup, and also able to look out for him/herself.

And as Rich, I believe, already pointed out, this god of yours is not in the market for a defense attorney. So, why, then, do you feel the need to get your knickers in a twist when someone, in your colorful phrase, "talks smack" about him? Don't you think that he can take care of himself? Maybe if you would learn to accept that there are others who feel differently than you do, then you wouldn't be looked upon with such scorn. Better yet would be if you would actually examine some of the things that you say, but I doubt that you will do that.

Waste
Flick Lives!

[vanillanice]

Adam, I'll swallow all your opinions,whole

[vanillanice]

Attention People: That was a joke,and I hope Adam Doesn't get it!

[SkeptiJess]

>> (BTW, because by name was mentioned, I'll say FTR that I don't recall Adam making any incorrect assertions about Wicca. Or any assertions about it at all, CTTOI...) <<

Upon reflection, Adam hasn't made the same kinds of assertions about Wicca as he has about some other religions. When I included Wicca among the faiths maligned by Adam, I was thinking of his response after visiting a Wiccan website -- he said that he took a quick peek around and fled. The implication being that the site was so scary and bad (read "evil and wrong") that Adam feared for his spiritual health. To me, this smacked of the common confusion between Wicca and Satanism and I construed it as such. Perhaps I was wrong.

------------------
Jess
Full of 'satiable curtiosity

Jess, he did that to the American Atheists home page too. How someone be so afraid to even read about other viewpoints is beyond me. It says "INSECURE ABOUT MY RELIGION" in big neon letters, if you ask me.

Er, that is, "how someone can be...."

Also, I don't want the statement above to mean that I endorse American Atheists or Wicca in any way. But at least I'm not afraid to read their web sites! (g)

[Jodi]

Well, I must defend Adam to this extent: I think it's unfair to ask someone what they believe and then attack them for their opinion. I mean, if they're stuffing their opinion down your throat, or even offering it up for criticism or comment, that's one thing, but that's a different thing that affirmatively soliciting someone's opinion solely to attack it.

Adam has been pretty clear in the past that he believes that anyone who doesn't adhere to his specific religious beliefs is not a Christian. I'm not; Falcon's not; Strainger's not; Snarkberry's not; Monty's not. I think this belief is incorrect under any reasonable definition of the word "Christian," but I respect his right to hold it. I only got irritated when he took it upon himself uninvited and unsolicited to inform me that I'm not a Christian. If I had asked him for his opinion, I could hardly complain about the content of that opinion -- but I hadn't asked.

Monty, on the other hand, is asking what Adam believes, and he's asking solely to debate the validity of Adam's beliefs -- while at the same time objecting to Adam's scepticism of his beliefs. Under such circumstances, I think Adam is right to refuse to be drawn -- especially since he's already answered the question anyhow.

[furt]

How does accepting (or not) LDS as Christians constitute a criteria for one's niceness? I mean, whether or not LDS teachings are compatible with Orthodox Christianity or not is a theological Question. Does having a "wrong" answer to a theological question necessarily make me a mean-spirited, nasty person?

I, personally, do not think LDS teachings are biblical; I believe they are sufficiently different from orthodox, historic Christianity, as defined by the Bible, by the Church and the Creeds, as to constitute a seperate religion. Hence, I would not consider LDSs as fitting into the theological category of "Christian." I should add that the Pope and Billy Graham agree with me (Or better to say I with them...). Obviously, if someone want to call themselves "Christian," I can't stop them, and I don't try. But, as a matter of theological taxonomy, I don't agree.

Despite that, I, amazingly, have never defamed, insulted, assaulted, punched, kicked or shot a LDS, nor have they me. I am cordial and respectful, and they are too. I had a couple of LDS roomates for a few months, and we never once argued over it. They were a little wierd, but I think that was just them. Almost uniformly I have found LDS to be Good People. I venture to guess they think roughly the same of me. Moreover, I bear no ill will to any LDS on this board and would be happy to be their freind if they will have me. I have Buddhist, Muslim, Taoist, Atheist and who knows what else freinds. Staggeringly, I have even had theological conversations with them devoid of acrimony, even when I told them I disagreed.

Now I'm not going to get into the theological arguments; I haven't read up on LDS in ages and I have a policy of not having those discussions on the net--where it almost invariably DOES slide into acrimony, due to the limitations of the medium.

But my point is that this thinking that "If ARG (or anyone) believes ____, he must be a bad person," is absurd. It's the same kind of thinking that says "because you oppose me on this political issue, you therefore are racist/sexist/immoral." Heck, it's the same thinking that says "All Packers fans are bastards."

ARG has said some not-so-nice things in the past, and he's said plenty of stupid things. If you want to waste him for those, go right ahead. But let's leave off with this crap about "If you don't agree that LDS are Christians, it means you hate them all."




------------------
"It all started with marbles in school..."

[Jodi]

But to what end, Monty? I mean, we can all define "green" as a particular color made of a mix of yellow and blue, and further agree in practice what "green" is as a matter of fact by reference to green objects (grass, apples, whatever). And Adam may come along and say that "green" is really "blue" -- blue adulterated with yellow -- and insist on referring to it as blue. You might establish that most people accept green as an "independent" color and most people agree that blue means something else, but that doesn't change Adam's hypothetical take on the situation.

Adam obviously ascribes to a very narrow definition of Christianity; he limits the term to those who believe substantially the same things that he does. Do most people accept such a narrow definition? Clearly not. But that doesn't mean he's "wrong" to employ it for himself.

I understand your frustration and anger at being excluded as a Christian -- it pissed me off when he tried to tell me I'm not a Christian when (a) AFAIC, I pretty clearly am, and (b) much of my personal definition comes from my self-identity as a Christian. He was wrong to do it to me, and he was wrong to do it to you. But you appear to be now demanding that he "take it back;" he can't take it back, because it's what he really believes -- irritating as it is -- and your continuing insistence that he do so is only an invitation to another argument.

Similarly, he's not going to agree to use your (our) definition of Christianity, because it isn't his. Is he wrong in that? I think so, but then I think he's wrong about a lot of things.

[furt]

What he said.

[smilingjaws]

From Monty:
"What I did say, and what I've asked, is for him to show if he's going to continue using his own definitions of words or the definitions used by the majority of people who speak the language."

I find this rather amusing. As I have pointed out in a previous discussion, the World Council of Churches continues to refuse to admit the LDS church because the "majority" of Christian religions do not, in fact, consider the beliefs of Mormons to be substantially equivalent to Christian theology. And, as I pointed out before, espousing typical Mormon beliefs--such as God was once a man, man can become God, eternal marriage, Jesus is God's physical offspring, etc., would get you excommunicated or disfellowshipped. Just because someone includes part of your beliefs in their religion, it does not follow they are the same as your religion. I think Jews would be highly offended if Christians started referring to themselves as Jews simply because they both base their religions in the Old Testament and the Christians had "new revelations" that added to the religion. Each is separate and distinct.
For orthodox Christian religions to change their minds and accept Mormons as complete equals in the worship of Jesus Christ would require them to abandon most of the basic tenants of their theological beliefs.

P.S. This kid Adam writes a nice apology. He starts off really strongminded, but he tries. Monty doesn't give quite such a positive impression--did the "incorrect" translations of the Bible mispeak--do Mormons now believe that forgiving those who seek forgiveness is optional? If so, another distinct difference between orthodox Christianity and the LDS.

[David B]

Snarkberry said:

How someone be so afraid to even read about other viewpoints is beyond me. It says "INSECURE ABOUT MY RELIGION" in big neon letters, if you ask me.

I agree 100% (as I have indicated elsewhere. But, hey, just ask Adam, he'll tell you he isn't at all insecure. Yet another case where what Adam says and how Adam acts are two very different things.

Well, in Adam's defense, nobody's perfect. If someone ever holds me to everything I've said, I'll be in trouble! (g)

[Monty]

Smilingjaws: & within 24 hours that kid, Adam, blows it. Reread what I've posted in response to him throughout the board and y'all might just see that I've given him an "out" in the answer to the queries above. That would be the judicious use of the word "opinion."

If he would like to use the word "green" for something else, fine. So long as he identifies it as an opinion.

Adam is apparently unable to understand what an opinion is. Apparently, "Truth" is defined in his usage as "what Adam believes."

Boy Monty, you REALLY can't let things go can you? Again you mention my apology? Which is in the past? Can we move on now, please? I think it's best if I don't say anything about LDS anymore. Whether it's good, or bad. In fact, I think it's best that I not give any opinions on any religion ever again on this board. Some people are bound to get the wrong idea.

Jodih, Furt, Smiling Jaws, Bill...etc. Thanks for the defense. It's nice to see that you understand what's going on, even though you disagree with some of my beliefs.

Adam

------------------
"Life is hard...but God is good"

Adam wrote:

Jodih, Furt, Smiling Jaws, Bill...etc. Thanks for the defense. It's nice to see that you understand what's going on, even though you disagree with some of my beliefs.

Whoever said we have to agree on every subject in order to respect each other? YW.

What got me irritated was when he said something like, "Well, let's just call Mormonism a false religion," also uninvited and unsolicited. I'm over that now, and I realize that Adam is entitled to his own opinion, but at first I got mad at him and stayed mad for a while, simply because he had attacked my religion without even knowing what it really teaches.

As far as I'm concerned, that chapter of our online relationship is over--Adam has apologized, I have apologized, and I'm willing to call it ancient history. (And BTW, I do respect Adam, I just don't adhere to his belief system.)

[VegForLife]

Rich: I'm not sure what you're definition of Christian is, but I know for a fact that Phil Dennison is NOT Christian. Right Phil? He WAS Christian, but no longer is. and if you ARE a Christian, then I apologize for my error.

I didn't mention my definition. I mentioned yours. If you belong to a fundamentalist sect with which I am unfamiliar which teaches that one can lose his or her salvation, then my apologies.

Rich

[Monty]

Furt:

But let's leave off with this crap about "If you don't agree that LDS are Christians, it means you hate them all."

Nowhere did I say that, nor did I say Adam said that Adam hates all who don't belong to his sect. What I did say, and what I've asked, is for him to show if he's going to continue using his own definitions of words or the definitions used by the majority of people who speak the language.

[Monty]

Jodih: I'm not askance to someone asking me to examine the validity of my beliefs. Quite the contrayr, in fact; I question the validity of that belief quite often as I question the validity of all beliefs.

But there is a thing called language and it is composed of words and those words have definitions. One of those words is Christian. The definition, IMHO, is pretty clear.

Now, you may note, I did not ask "Do you believe those particular Christians are in error?" Heck, Paul wrote to folks who, in his view, were steeped in error. Yet he still called them Christians.

I think I'll go with the example set by Saul of Tarsus when it comes to this.

Cheers!
-Chip