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#1
09-28-1999, 04:44 PM
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Ahhh. It feels good to be back. Well here it is...
The Christian Religion By: Eli Samaha In the Bible and as common belief, " All whom believe in me shall go to heaven."- Well, about 1/2 of the world is not christian. So where are they going to go?- Not to heaven as the quote said. But to hell. For worshipping another god. Well, I must say, Hell is not freezing over any time soon with all the body temp. contributing. ------------------ Eli Samaha 
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#2
09-28-1999, 05:05 PM
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Not that I'm a Christian (I'm not) or that I'm trying to defend the religion, but I can't stand to see illogical thinking. Especially when it comes from Palidors (though I've come to expect it).
The quote says NOTHING about non-Christians. It doesn't say they're going to hell, and it doesn't say they're not going to heaven. So what's the point? Ah, I guess there is none.
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#3
09-28-1999, 05:20 PM
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Umm..."Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the Kingdom, but he who does the will of my Father." Doesn't quite sound like what Palidors is promulgating.
BTW, I wish I'd remembered that quote when ARG was posting!
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#5
09-28-1999, 08:12 PM
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Palidors:
See [URL: http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Foru...L/000380.html] Are all moral atheists damned?[/url] It deals with a bit of what you are asking. ------------------ Cessandra My Homepage Updated 9/27/99! The RHPS: Website For Virgins Updated 9/27/99!
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#8
09-28-1999, 10:27 PM
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Let's look at it logically, eh?
If C then H Starting with that assumption, one can say nothing but Christians will go to Heaven, no more. It may very well be true that If not C then not H but you won't find that anywhere in the Bible. The Bible says over and over again that Heaven is only acheivable in one way, but that's it. Hell? It's not mentioned in the Bible. John Milton mentioned a 'burning lake of brimstone" and the fiery pit was a popular image for feudal lords to use to keep the serfs in line, but can you find Hell in the Bible? Not in the old testament, I know that Hell is a foreign concept to Jews. The old testament is mostly about Jesus, and he was more of a mind to talk about the carrot, and not the stick (at least as the disciples portrayed him).
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#10
09-29-1999, 11:55 AM
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I'm surprised nobody's questioned this yet:
Quote:
Rich
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#11
09-29-1999, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
::searching the hard drive...ah, here it is:: {long post alert} A retiring Phys Chem professor was setting his last exam, for a graduate course in statistical thermodynamics. Being a bit bored with it all, and with a well kept and wry sense of humor, he set a single question on the sheet: Is Hell endothermic or exothermic? Support your answer with a proof. He had little idea what to expect, or how to grade the results, but decided to reward any student who was able to come up with a reasonable reply to his query. One "A" was awarded. Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law or some variant. The top student however wrote the following: First, we postulate that if souls exist, they must have some mass. If they do, then a mole of souls can also have a mass. So, at what rate are souls moving into Hell and at what rate are the souls leaving? I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to hell, it will not leave. Therefore no souls are leaving. As for souls entering hell, lets look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of volume in hell. Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in hell to stay the same, the ratio of the mass of souls and volume needs to stay constant. There are two possible conditions. One, if hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter hell, then the temperature and pressure in hell will increase exponentially until all hell breaks loose. Conversely, if hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in hell, than the temperature and pressure will drop until hell freezes over, condition two. We can solve this with the 1990 postulation of Theresa LeClair, the girl who lived across the hall from me in first year residence. Since I have still not been successful in obtaining sexual relations with her, condition two above has not been met, and thus it can be concluded that condition one is true, and hell is exothermic. ------------------ Designated Optional Signature at Bottom of Post
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#13
09-29-1999, 04:34 PM
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The immense wisdom acquired by Palidors during his/her 13 very long years of existence has totally overwhelmed all of the lesser minds on this board. After the months of serious, intelligent, sometimes vitriolic debate on this matter, a mere 13 year old has spoken, and swept away all dissenting opinions in one brief paragraph.
I hereby declare that the religion issue is settled, and there is no further need to debate the matter. Let us all observe a moment of silence out of respect for this momentous occasion! (Gee - can somebody e-mail ARG and ask him to come back?) ------------------ If there is room for doubt - doubt!
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#14
09-29-1999, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
::ducking jodih's wrath:: ------------------ "Eppur, si muove!" - Galileo Galilei
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#15
09-29-1999, 05:33 PM
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Duck my wrath, will you??? Actually, I don't know why you'd be wrathful. I don't have the figures on current Christian population handy (and no desire to look them up), but I'd be interested to hear what they are if anyone else wants to do the leg-work. Incidentally, my "definition" of Christianity would not exclude most of those who claim the title. On the issue of "who is a Christian" I have only ever said: (1) as a practical matter, it's generally prudent to assume that those who claim to be Christian are Christian; but (2) there must be some rational definition of Christianity which would necessarily exclude those who do not meet that definition. That's all.
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#17
09-29-1999, 06:22 PM
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#18
09-29-1999, 07:27 PM
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Hey, that was my article!
But at any rate, I'm not going to take my usual tack of being lured into a religious argument, but (in Palidor's OP) "common belief" bites he big one here. The idea that unbelievers in Christianity go to hell is not a biblical teaching. Hell, according to the bible, was created for "the devil and his angels." Taken as a whole, the Bible is a little unclear about what happens to unbelievers, although a kind of permanent destruction is implied in a few places. On the other hand, Jesus seems to leave room for another interpretation as well. In one of his parables, he mentions that a debtor (a metaphor for a "sinner") will not be released from prison "until he has paid the last penny. So, the option is open for an interpretation of some sort of purgatory as well. ------------------ Saint Eutychus www.disneyshorts.org
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#19
09-30-1999, 12:08 AM
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What is truly funny is that Palidors here things this is the "End of all ends to the religion topic". Heck, this isn't nearly as interesting as even my "Where have all the miracles gone?" which was tame & boring by "Salvation 101" & other thread's standards. I get the impression that Palidors considers this to be check and mate for all the "poor misguided" Christian's out there.
------------------ What more could you expect from somebody who lets people kick him to the head?
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#20
09-30-1999, 07:04 AM
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A very wise preacher once remarked, "A parable is a story with a point. Try to read more into it than the point, and you're bound to go astray." The only problem there is determining what the point is.
Thanks, Euty, for a very useful bunch of statistics. (I'm just waiting for Phil to say "We're number two; we try harder.") 
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#21
09-30-1999, 07:06 AM
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By the way, my wife has a foolproof way of dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons who come door-to-door. She just witnesses to them as an evangelical Episcopalian until they get nervous and leave. (Except for one nice duo of Mormons who stuck around and ended up having a prayer service with us, which left everybody with a good feeling about the experience.)
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#23
09-30-1999, 08:45 PM
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Oh, for (insert deity here)'s sake, it's you again.
Pally, I don't know how to break this to you, but your logic is faulty. What, somebody already said that? Yes, I know, but it didn't seem to faze you the other twenty times that was pointed out. Oh, well. Hope springs eternal. Anyway, we were talking about logic. Now, another poster pointed out that "if C then H" is true, then "if not C then not H" could also be true. That is correct, it could, but it isn't necessarily. That is the converse* of the statement, and the converse is never equivalent to the statement (which is to say, if one is true, the other does not necessarily have to be). The only thing that is equivalent to the statement is the contrapositive: If not H then not C. All you've proven is that if you don't get into heaven, you must not be a Christian. What a quantum leap! And that's fine with me, because I'm not Christian, and I'm not going to heaven. And you know something else? (That was a rhetorical question, we already know the answer...) Your End of all Ends didn't work! I don't know what you're trying to do here. Are you trying to rewrite the Bible? Good, I'll be waiting for the Palidors Edition to hit the bookstores. In it, there will be so much of a vacuum of wisdom and learning that you'll set religion back centuries, back when they burned heretics at the stake! Of course, they'd be burning me right along with you, but it would be worth it just to see the expression on your face when you realize you're not the prophet you think you are. *Or was it the inverse? I always get those two mixed up. Whichever one it is, they're still not equivalent.
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#24
09-30-1999, 09:20 PM
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"End of all ends to the religion topic," eh?
Good luck!
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#25
10-01-1999, 04:42 AM
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Actually, the most foolproof way of avoiding door-to-door evangelists is not opening the door in the first place.
------------------ There's always another beer.
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#26
10-01-1999, 07:24 AM
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WHY are you guys playing his game?
**throws hands up in frustration**
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#27
10-01-1999, 09:44 AM
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Since we're talking about how to avoid evangelists...
I never had any Jehovah's Witnesses show up at my parents' house, and no one else in the neighborhood has seen them either. Legend says that they had only come to the area once, just after all the houses were built; at the first house they went to, they got shot at, so they decided not to come back. Most people in the neighborhood believe this, especially because they have a low opinion of the supposed gun-wielder. But IMO, a more likely cause is that the area still doesn't appear on most maps. (Last time I checked, it was labelled as part of a state park. This was about 10 years after the houses went up.) ------------------ Laugh hard; it's a long way to the bank.
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#28
10-01-1999, 08:22 PM
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Hey, I've finally gotten people to notice me! Of course, both of them noticed I'd screwed up, but I'll take negative attention too...
Anyway: 1) When I refferred to the Old Testament being mostly about Jesus, yes, I did mean the new testament, I was tired. College has done that to me. 2) And then another poster pointed out that if ~C then ~H is not necessarilly true. I think I meant to point that out, but I only said that it could be true. 3) If ~C then ~H is the inverse of if C then H. The converse, which is always true if the given statement is true, is If ~H then ~C. My brother had a good story about getting rid of evangelists. He was in the Air Force, and it may interest you to know that the only thing the military doesn't really restrict is drinking (my brother says it's a form of control, but I digress...). Anyway, my brother had been out drinking with friends, and had come home and passed out on the couch. He woke up to the ringing of the doorbell. He opened the door to a couple of Jehova's Witnesses. He was unshaved, bleary-eyed, eyes bloodshot, hair amuss, and wearing only boxers and an undershirt. Their eyes positively lit up when they saw him, "A SINNER!" They started in evangelizing. He just stared at them, tried to keep them in focus, and dealt with his horrible headache. Then the little old lady (she had her strapping young son with her to defend her from those nasty soldiers. er, airmen) pulled out a piece of posterboard with one of those pictures on it. You know the ones I'm talking about, little blond-haired chubby cherubic children (alliteration points!) running around in mini-togas with lions and tigers and lambs in one of the common misconceptions of a peaceful nature scene (somehow, those sunny meadows always have a tree in them for shade). She said, "Have you thought about the coming of the kingdom of Heaven? You know, King-DOME? Like a dome? Only certain people will be covered by it." Then my brother looked straight at her and said, "No, I hadn't thought about it like that, because Kingdom comes from an old Celtic word and has absolutely nothing to do with a dome, and if you think that when the kingdom of heaven descends that we'll still be wearing our Earthly forms, then you'd better rethink the concept." Then he slammed the door in their faces, took a few Aspirin, and crawled into bed.
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#29
10-01-1999, 11:30 PM
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Surgoshan
Member posted 09-28-1999 10:27 PM [quote] Hell? It's not mentioned in the Bible. [/quot] Well, ther is that story about the rich guy who never helped the poor who ended up in a place of "much wailing and grinding of teeth". Granted, this may not actually be hell ("just" the DMV?), and it was a parable, but it's close enough for most folks. ------------------ -Ryan " 'Ideas on Earth were badges of friendship or enmity. Their content did not matter.' " -Kurt Vonnegut, Breakfast of Champions
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#30
10-02-1999, 12:43 AM
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Actually, for the quick lesson in logic:
If C, then H--original statement. If ~H, then ~C--contrapositive. If H, then C--converse. If ~C, then ~H--inverse. The original statement and contrapositive are logically equivalent, as are the converse and inverse.
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#31
10-02-1999, 06:32 AM
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I have it on good authority (my Governor, Jesse Ventura, in this month's Playboy) that organized religion is for "weak minded people who can't think for themselves."
Of course, he also believes that the military-industrial complex killed Kennedy. Also, if he's ever reincarnated, he says he wants to come back as a 38 DD bra. He also thinks that Tailhook was no big deal; that the fighter pilots should be expected to do that sort of thing and that the women they groped should "get over it." Now, how could anyone contradict him?
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#33
10-02-1999, 04:37 PM
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Rysdad, who voted this moron into office?
Martin Luther King offed JFK. And paid for it with his own life, when he was assassinated by Sirhan. Ray was merely a dupe of the D.A.R. Get current, people. ------------------ According to the Pope, a woman can be a saint, but not a priest.
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#35
10-05-1999, 07:03 PM
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I liked Surgoshan's story about getting rid of Jehovah's Witnesses. My cousin Dave, an atheist, while drafted into the military got rid of a few rabid Baptist co-workers in a novel way.
He politely listened to their conversion efforts for a awhile, nodding seriously, then suddenly checked his watch, jumped up, unrolled a small rug, knelt on it facing in, and prostrated himself on a floor for a few minutes. Then he arose, seated himself again, and inquired politely, "You were saying?" They left and didn't try again.
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#37
10-05-1999, 08:21 PM
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Of course, if I end up being harassed by the religious right, I'll invite them into my living room (I know you think it's a bad idea), sit them down on my sofa, listen to them a few minutes, then excuse myself for a few moments. I'll walk out of the room, and when I return, I'll have a shotgun and a box of shells. I'll sit down on the carpet and carefully clean and load it. Then I'll calmly ask them not to bother me any more.
Of course, that presupposes that: a) I'll be bothered by the fanatics and b) I'll own a shotgun But it's a nice fantasy.
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