Hollywood/Madison Ave & Tokenism & Minority TV

[Mr. Blue Sky]

OK, Let's say you are a member of a minority and Hollywod and/or Madison Ave. is ignoring you. Your minority group makes a fuss by protesting or boycotting. Now, a commercial is produced for a commonly used product that prominently features a member of your minority group.

The question: do you feel vindicated that you are being represented or do you feel offended, thinking the only reason the company has made this commercial is to make you and your group back down?

I bring this up in the light of the new TV season and the alarming lack of minorities. Which is worse: good TV w/a few minorities or bad TV (Homeboys in Outer Space, anyone) that features lots of minorities?

In the 70's, most minority-based shows (Sanford & Son, Jeffersons, Good Times, etc) were written by whites.

Is there a market (key word: money) for reality-based minority shows?

[astorian]

Interestingly, the Wall Street Journal ran a piece today indicating that, on the three major networks, 12% of actors and actresses are African-American- almost exactly the same as their percentage of the U.S. population.

So, where did the notion of underrepresentation come from? Strictly from this season's NEW shows, none of which had much minority representation. If you look at ALL network shows, not just the new ones, the networks have done a fairly GOOD job of including minority actors.

When presented with these numbers, of course, spokespersons for leading African-American groups changed the subject and said, in effect, "Not good enough- we want proportional representation at ALL levels: producers, directors, writers, executives, etc."

A reasonable desire, of course, but it would be nice if even ONE of them would acknowledge that therir earlier complaints were a lot of hot air.

[SterlingNorth]

In response to the original question, yes I do feel offended by the tokenism. If they really cared about the representation about us, they should have done it right in the first place. But I think that we should protest our way on TV. We need to help ourselves in the creative processes and get a good show ON the air.

Astorian, I'm interested. What are the numbers on people of other ethnic groups in prime time television.
I have noticed that there are more blacks and minorities on dramas than comedies. Dramas have much larger casts than comedies and ted to OVERrepresent minorities (not that there's anything wrong with that).

[HubZilla]

Why are blacks the only ones we talk about when it comes to minority representation on TV and movies? Blacks are 12%, but Hispanics are 9%, Asians are 4%. The other two have much higher growth rates and have nearly equal numbers in TV cities like New York and Los Angeles.

At least blacks get BET, WB, and UPN...

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"It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in an argument" - William McAdoo

[astorian]

The point made about the discrepancy between dramas and comedies is very valid.

The leading TV dramas, especially the ensemble shows, tend to have substantial ethnic diversity (think of "E.R.", "Law & Order," "Chicago Hope," "The Practice," "NYPD Blue"). On the other hand, the leading sitcoms of the last ten years ("Seinfeld," "Friends," "Cheers," "Frasier," "Third Rock From the Sun," etc.) have been all-white.

Why should this be? I have no definitive answer, and can only speculate. Perhaps it's because a large, ensemble cast makes it easier to include some token minorities (even on the shows I cited, black characters aren't the STARS, after all). Perhaps it's because relatively few prodducers make almost ALL of TV's sitcoms, and they tend to like using the same (white) actors over and over.

Or... think about this. Maybe TV comedy producers are terrified of offending people. SUPPOSE that Jerry Seinfeld and Larry David had wanted to make a black comic a regular on "Seinfeld." WHICH character could have been made black without prompting outrage? If the zany wacky Kramer role had been given to a black comedian, I GUARANTEE that the NAACP would have protested ("Kramer is an offensive, stereotypical Stepin Fetchit..."). Or what if Newman the postman was black. Would Seinfeld be accused of racism when he sneered "Hello... NEWman")?
If Jason Alexander had been replaced by a black comic, Spike Lee would have started a riot ("George is a stupid, inept, loser- how typical they gave that role to a black actor").

Get the idea? People on comedies tend to be stupid, or at least, to do stupid things. Now, an all-black show on the WB can get away with that. A predominantly white show with a white producer on a major network CAN'T get away with that kind of thing. They may find it easier to play it safe, and not include black people in comedies at all.

[Gilligan]

Very interesting point, astorian. Now that I think about it, I notice that on most "white" sitcoms, if there is a regular black character, he is usually the intellegent or the wise-cracking one, and rarely the butt of jokes. I am thinking of Benson from Soap, Lionel from All in the Family, the guy on Designing Women, Roz from Night Court.

[HubZilla]

Excellent point, Astorian.

In one of Dilbert's books, Scott Adams was asked why his comics initially didn't include more women or minorities.

He said it was easier to make fun of white males than be accused of possibly stereotyping.

[TVeblen]

I'd imagine a lot of the choice, for the artist and audience, would be how the role was presented.

The examples I'm thinking of are Sidney Poitier and Billy Dee Williams, with Will Smith and Eddie Murhphy in the same category. Was the role written as a "black role" or was it just a great role and be damned the skin color of the actor. IIRC, Billy Dee Williams insisted on meeting George Lucas to see if he was being cast as the token black as Lando. Same with Sidney Poitier in "To Sir with Love". With a lot of Will Smith's roles, and Eddie Murphy's recent roles, they could easily be white, Asian, hispanic, whatever.

That's movies and not TV, so I apologize for wandering off. But the distinction, I think, is a good one. They are headliners, and the focus. There are "black" shows that could speak to that distinctive experience, and they could only be credible with black actors. (Though wasn't there a flap about Ben Kingsley being cast in a black role? Sorry! That's wandering off again...)

The only hispanic TV I can think of Freddie Prinze in "Chico and The Man". Hmmm. Sorry, folks, I shouldn't free associate on line...

Anyway, I guess one test would be if the role is just a solid ROLE, and be damned the color of the skin of the actor.

BTW, I love the fact that commercials now routinely have black and other ethnic groups in them. When a commercial is all white, it raises a subliminal bell: "wait a minute, everybody looks like they've been bleached. Duh whuuut...?" There's one for car, I think, that always made me itch unitl I figured out that everybody in it was pure white bread and mayo. It just looked WRONG.

Sorry. Rambling.
Veb
(In migraine hangover)

[Polycarp]

I find Will Smith, Morgan Freeman, and Whoopi Goldberg among the most skillful and competent actors around. Not "black actors" just "actors." I want to see Wilson Cruz, who has very high reviews, but haven't had opportunity to watch something he's been in.

[divemaster]

BTW, I love the fact that commercials now routinely have black and other ethnic groups in them.

Yeah, but it's also painful to see just how far commercials will go to make sure that all possible combinations are represented. Take a close look at almost any commercial in which a group of twenty-somethings is hanging out or a bunch of kids are gathered for a party or something.

A couple of friends and I would play a game by which we tried to spot the most forcibly diversified commercials. "There's the black kid--1 point!" "Hispanic female--2 points!" "Oh, look...myopic Chinese girl in wheelchair--4 points!" I think the winner was usually McDonalds, although I'm sure lots of clothing ads would score big time.

My point is a simple observation; I'm certainly not saying advertisers are wrong to be inclusive. Actually, I'm sure it is very smart demographically. And whether TV commercial diversity accurately represents what you see every day in real life depends on where you live and the crowds you hang with.

And nothing can compare to the diversity of criminal gangs on TV. Talk about representing something not often seen in real life. As far as I know, real life gangs tend to be grouped by obvious racial/ethnic characteristics (Crips/Bloods; Skinheads; Latino gangs; Asian gangs, etc...). TV gangs make sure to pick at least one from each group.

[tracer]

DIVEMASTER wrote:

A couple of friends and I would play a game by which we tried to spot the most forcibly diversified commercials. "There's the black kid--1 point!" "Hispanic female--2 points!" "Oh, look...myopic Chinese girl in wheelchair--4 points!" I think the winner was usually McDonalds, although I'm sure lots of clothing ads would score big time.

Not only that -- remember the McDonald's ad where they had a bunch of teenagers speculating about what they wanted to be when they grow up? One particularly handsome and "cool"-looking teenage boy quipped, "I just wanna get married." I'm 99.999996% sure that that line was originally given to a girl, before McDonalds' anti-stereotype editors got their hands on it.

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Visit the Internet Stellar Database at www.stellar-database.com

[SterlingNorth]

TV Producers are a spineless bunch. Afraid of offending a minority in less than stellar representation. So they feel NO
representation is better.
Great reasoning and logic.

Yeah, there probably would have been protests on the first week if Cosmo Kramer played by Martin Lawerence was the
only representation of an integrated cast on an NBC situation comedy, but if "diversity" were scattered more randomly in
TV land it wouldn't be a problem. Of course I'm being too idealistic again. Should I go to become cynical, realistic, or what?

I think I'll settle for a counterpoint.

Who here remembers "The Jeffersons." Movin' on Up! To that Deluxe Apartment in the ski-i-ie. . .
Remember George Jefferson (Sherman Hemsley). How would you describe him. Pompous. Obnoxious. Racist even. Amazingly
that show somehow enjoyed huge modest popularity for by much of the population during the late 70s and early 80s. O.K. so it
wasn't the most diverse, though it had one regular white character, so it already has one up on "Friends."
My point is that you don't have to have the minorities always being the saints of virtue.

My Second point of contention is the fear of offense. It may be more of inertia. I saw that interview with Larry David on ET
sometime back in August. They had about a half-dozen producers talking about this issue. Most of them said something to the
effect of "We didn't really think about it." "We didn't really pay that much attention to it." or "We didn't realize." (Which would
more explain the rush to add token minority parts.)

A few said, "It wouldn't fit with the setting." (The setting being a super exclusive boarding-school in New England, Manchester
Prep.)
Some blamed casting. If it doesn't specifically mention a race, would you assume white? If it takes place in New York?
Washington D.C.? Detroit? I remember "Homicide: Life on the Street" had a Lt. Giardello. He was written as a Italian-Amer.
character. Casting had assumed white, but chose Yaphey Kotto, a black. He was the best at audition. But how often would
that happen.

Another question? How do you write black? Apparently that is a bigger problem now-a-days than back in the Norman Lear
years of sit-comedy back in the 70s and 80s. Many white writers fear writing for black characters. Some of their fears are
understandable. Several sitcoms on the big three that attempted to have majority black casts were canceled. (Who remembers
Brandy's first sitcom. Nooo, not "Moesha" [sp?] it was "Thea"! Who remembers? . .) I'm not sure if the converse is true, if
black writers fear writing white.

Of course, the last group (I'm sorry, I think I turned this into a blame list. I didn't wish to.) are the advertisers. They make it a
big deal (or at least the networks say they do) to want to court the uncourtable 18-49 year-old demographic. In particular, the
white 25-34 year old latte drinking crowd. Which is the cast of most any situation comedy on ABC and NBC. (the WB skews
younger, Fox, if they have any sitcoms left, also skews younger. CBS skews older.) Apparently, the older faces they can't
mindwash anymore. The Blacks have their own shows and channels (they assume) as do the Latinos.

Now that I'm done, may I ask, why exactly do Whites and Blacks have different viewing habits? "Fraiser" being no. 1 comedy
but in the 80s or so among black audiences. Likewise "Steve Harvey" was in the top among blacks but doesn't break the top
100 overall.
That would be a question that would probably be posed to me (I'm black, I guess), but I don't like the "black" shows in general.
(I don't like that many TV shows in general, but you get the idea.)


OK, race tends to be one of the only issue we treat like a landmine field. Most of us risk NOT being blown up by saying
something that could risk being labeled "Racist". Which is why I like this place. There have been more meaningful discussions on
race, where people expressed their opinions and feelings without some of the demogogueing (sp?) or uneasiness of fear of being
labeled bigoted.

Anyway, I'm glad we brought up the issue of comics. I haven't seen Franklin in over a month in "Peanuts." Where is he. Why
are the only minorities I see are the kids in "The Boondocks," and "Curtis," and Hector from "Tits!"?

[SterlingNorth]

I meant "Zits!" Zits. . .

not tits.

What was I thinking?

[David B]

What was I thinking?

Apparently, you were thinking about, well, tits.

[SterlingNorth]

Well that's what you get when you try to talk about prime time television nowadays.

(It's nice to know that you've got my back, Dave).

[Markxxx]

In some areas Hispanics are well represented. For instance in Chicago we have 10 commercial channels. (not counting PBS & Home Shopping). Hispanics form 800,000 approx in the metro are of 8 Million (approx) that is 10% of the population. Of those 10 commercial stations 2 are full time Spanish stations. This means they control 20% of commercial stations while only 10% of the population.

And in terms of Music (just number one hits alone) blacks have always been proportionally represnted.

[Ukulele Ike]

I LOVE the all-Spanish stations here in New York, even though I have not a word of the language.

Best T&A on broadcast television.

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Uke

[HubZilla]

And nothing can compare to the diversity of criminal gangs on TV. Talk about representing something not often seen in real life. As far as I know, real life gangs tend to be grouped by obvious racial/ethnic characteristics (Crips/Bloods; Skinheads; Latino gangs; Asian gangs, etc...). TV gangs make sure to pick at least one from each group.

Excellent point! Now that I think about it, all inner-city gangs on TV and movies have white guys in them. Even if it's a group of three muggers in an obviously inner-city setting, there's always a white guy included.

Someday, perhaps gangstas in real life will take this cavalier attitude toward diversity! If we all work together, people regardless of skin color can get through that "wannabe" glass ceiling

-Hub"OGD"Zilla

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"It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in an argument" - William McAdoo

[pldennison]

Just to pick a nit with Sterling's post, "The Jefferson's" had three regular white characters: Bentley, the English next-door neighbor; Tom Willis, whose being in a mixed-race marriage infuriated George (and whose daughter married Lionel Jefferson); and Ralph the Doorman.

Also remember, George (and Lionel) were the foils to Archie on "All in the Family," perfectly reflecting his attitudes from the other side.

[astorian]

Oddly enough, the WHITEST network in all of television is probabaly (drum roll)... Univision, the Spanish language network. American soap operas are a veritable Rainbow Coalition conmpared to the Mexican soap operas! Wouldn't you think there was ONE Mexican actress who ISN'T a blue-eyed, fair-skinned blonde?

[GatewayDrug]

Another thing on the whole Drama (diverse) vs. Comedy (not) thing: Entertainment Weekly had a piece on this issue a while ago and pointed while diverse shows are usually workplace oriented, all-white/all-black shows invariably take place in the home. This fits reality: our workplaces are generally more integrated than our neighborhoods. And while not an exact fit, more dramas are set at both work and home, while sitcoms are usually set completely at home. So the comedy/drama dichotomy makes some sense.

White people writing for blacks is tough…how do you make the voice real without being insulting. A fine line. I remember a sitcom on FOX called "The Show" (I think) that had two white writers going to work on a black, "In Living Color" - type show. I only saw the pilot, but found the premise fascinating. On the show, the two groups (b&w) are fighting over race and perspective for the whole show until they find a common reference point acting out a scene from Pulp Fiction. The sad thing is that it feels like black shows are getting "blacker." Watching UPN is like a dropping into a parallel universe: I get all the cultural reference points, but find everything at most borderline funny. I guess blacks never got Seinfeld. I want to say "Vive la difference," but it’s sad that there aren’t any high quality reference points between the races. Or maybe I’m pessimistic?

[pldennison]

Check this out: http://us.imdb.com/StudioBrief/1999/19990928.html

BLACK STUNT PEOPLE CLAIM DISCRIMINATION

Black stunt men and women charged Monday that film and television producers are hiring whites to perform stunts for black actors. Appearing at a news conference in Los Angeles, the stunt workers said that the industry has even come up with a term for the process: "paint downs." "When you have paint downs, you're taking jobs away from African-Americans," Marvin Walters a retired black stunt man, said. "This is discrimination."

[SterlingNorth]

film and television producers are hiring whites to perform stunts for black actors.

<font size="5">Why? Why???</font>

[SterlingNorth]

Gateway Drug

White people writing for blacks is tough

Apparently harder now than in the 70s
Trumpy303 OT

In the 70's, most minority-based shows (Sanford & Son, Jeffersons, Good Times, etc) were written by whites.

But maybe a black man as a garbage could possibly be protested into oblivion. <font size="1>I wonder if "Roc" was successful. . .</font>

Anyway, my opinion to Trumpy303's actual question, is there a market.
. . .which all I can say is
<font color="#0000ff" size="5">Welcome to TV-Land Balkanization</font>
There is no water-cooler show anymore. This week's number one show "Friends" only attracted 17.8% of the people to watch.
I can divide prime-time programing on the major networks into these groups.

1.)Middle-aged women in crisis. (Providence, Once and Again)
2.)Middle-Upper 20 somehings drinking coffee and talking about sex (Just pick any comedy on NBC or ABC)
3.)High-School/College people (read:women) (Most Dramas on WB, Fox).
4.) People younger than those in group #3 (TGIF on ABC, also predominately women)
5.)Old People (CBS)
6.)Men (WWF Smackdown)
7.)Black People (WB and UPN comedies)

Who are the advertisers after most. I'd guess nos. 2, 3, 1, and 4 in that order. Apparently marketing believes that the group most effectively to sell stuff to are young people who are spendthrift with money. Old people have already been brand affiliated (mindwashed). Men don't have power of the pocketbook. But remember young people must be cool no matter at what cost (and who tells them better what's in and what's five-minutes ago than television). And blacks watch more TV on average so, they already have the ads implanted in the brain. We don't need to target them.

[Alphagene]

I guess blacks never got Seinfeld.

According to a Village Voice article a year or two back, the final Seinfeld episode was the #1 rated show that week among whites and like #50 among blacks. The #1 show that week among blacks was "Between Brothers", a show that most whites haven't even heard of.

There was a recent attempt at an integrated sitcom called "Buddies" IIRC. Dave Chapelle was in it. I love Dave Chapelle but my problem with the show was that it portrayed his friendship with a white guy as something that survived only with hard work. I don't say to my black friends, "You're black and I'm white but somehow we make it work."

A good interracial sitcom IMHO would either have:

(1) All races ripping on each other equally (Which would not happen in the current social climate. Can you see a white guy mocking sterotypically black mannerisms on current primetime network TV?) or
(2) No mention of racial differences at all.

[GatewayDrug]

Are black/white friendships so rare that it's hard to find people to write them into sitcoms? You have to address race, if only on the margins--if you ignore it it comes off fake. My office manager @ work is black and pretty dark and she busted up when I was amazed by her watch tan line. Her skin was much lighter beneath. Who knew? A little thing, but a racial thing. There are just certain lines you don't cross, whether on TV or in life. And it's easier for whites to cross the line than blacks. But again, why is it so hard to write these relationships into sitcoms convincingly?

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A man, a plan, a canal: GatewayDrug

[Doobieous]

Oddly enough, the WHITEST network in all of television is probabaly (drum roll)... Univision, the Spanish language network. American soap operas are a veritable Rainbow Coalition conmpared to the Mexican soap operas! Wouldn't you think there was ONE Mexican actress who ISN'T a blue-eyed, fair-skinned blonde?

Oh aint that the truth! I always got a kick out of one of the telenovelas where one of the main characters was supposed to a an indian in Mexico (i think) but she had that light brown hair, fair skin, and light eyes. Her mother and father looked more Indian than she. I think the telenovelas reflect the views of many latinos, that if you are light skinned and fair haired you are upper class and thats what you should strive for (that was told to me by a friend who is of Mexican descent).

Same thing happens in Asian cultures. In the Philippines, 99% of actors and actresses will be very light skinned and look more European or Chinese than the dark skinned malayan Filipino does.

[GatewayDrug]

What's a Hazop?

[Doobieous]

I believe a 'hazop' means 'hazardous operations'. Just like 'hazmat' refers to 'hazardous materials'.

[Eureka]

I was amused a few years ago when one of my professors showed a video demonstrating a team doing a Hazop. The video had been produced for a major petroleum company, and clearly had been cast to emphasize diversity. The cast had seven people (I think) two women, 5 men, 2-3 hispanics, and at least one black. And, perhaps to make it not look biased against women, one of the women was in charge of the meeting. (The other was hispanic and her desrciption emphasized her experiance with typing and the software used by her character). On the other hand, it amused my fellow students and I because of the degree the characters did live up to stereotypes. Neither woman had any plant engineering experience, the older man with lots of experience but less education was not white, the young guy fresh out of school was hispanic, etc. While we were (generally) pleased to see more than a token female or minority character, we thought that a mostly white cast might have avoided reinforcing stereotypes. Granted, this video was not meant for public consumption, but it was made so it wouldn't leave any obvious groups out.
Eureka (formerly known as Archimedes)

[Eureka]

Doobieous is basically correct. A hazop is a procedure in which a group of people get together and discuss what possible problems or hazards could be associated with a piece of equipment/process. Then they discuss how to prevent such problems, and how to react if they occur. Thus, if some idiot ever does walk into the lab and bashes a large glass column full of boiling methanol and water with a wrench, the people in the lab will know that they should shut down various valves, turn off the equipment, cover the spilled fluids with a spill kit, and tell the other groups in the lab to evacuate (after first shutting down their equipment, based on their own hazops).

[AWB]

What about on "Star Trek: Voyager".

B'Elanna Torres is always fighting the inner rage of her heritage. C'mon, Latinos aren't all hot-tempered!

[andros]

Oh, don't start on Star Trek.

Ooops. Too late.

Roddenberry made the first forays into racial integration, with the first on-air interracial kiss. But he also combined the token woman with the token black and made her a telephone operator (Uhura! Hailing frequencies!).

Voyager has a hotheaded latina (Torres), a science-savant asian (Kim), a violent black (Security chief Tuvok), and a philosophical amerind (Chakotay). Not to mention Janeway as the mother figure, nurturing and caring, yet violently defending her brood.

Integration, yes. Stereotyping? You decide.

-andros-

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"Listen Children Eternal Father Eternally One!" Exceptions? None!
-Doc Bronner

[David B]

Voyager has a hotheaded latina (Torres)

Oh, come on. She's hotheaded because she's half-Klingon, not 'cus she's a latina.

a violent black (Security chief Tuvok)

Violent? He's a Vulcan -- he controls his emotions. How is he violent?

[SterlingNorth]

In bringing up the "internal" racism with Hispanics, a op-ed piece was written by Richard Estrada in the Washington Post.

<font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">a tiny excerpt:</font><HR>The continuing debate in the Hispanic community about Spanish-language soap operas starring blonde, blue-eyed actors and actresses -- as if they were representative of the Hispanic population from Tampa to Tierra del Fuego -- is but the best-known example of this controversy. But Hispanic television's exaltation of cream-colored skin over shades of chocolate and cinnamon is hardly the entire issue.

A few years ago I was talking to a friend, a woman who happens to be a beautiful Cuban emigre with European features. Having just returned from Havana, I was regaling her with stories about my visit when she interrupted me with a question that discomfited me deeply.

Wasn't it true that so many of the better class of people had abandoned the island that Cuba had become very black? She asked the question with obvious disapproval on her face.

She was right in her belief that Cubans of African descent are now more visible in the society than in the years preceding Fidel Castro's revolution. But her unmistakable implication that Cuba's African-origin population is undesirable left me speechless.

In any event, if there is copyright problems, The article is here at: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...00599-idx.html

(the article will probably stay up for a month before it's taken down and moved to its pay-for-access archives.)

[The_Peyote_Coyote]

Dear SterlingNorth:
I can't speak for television shows as I don't own a TV. However, here a few minority characters in the comic strips you missed:
Robbie Robertson in Spiderman.
Marcus in Foxtrot.
Wee Pals has a wide range of minority children. Unfortunately, the strip is not very funny, IMO.
Although all the recurring characters are white, Tank McNamara routinely shows blacks in a wide variety of situations -- last Sunday's strip was a good example.
I haven't seen the strip in month, but I believe one of the coaches in Gil Thorp was black.
For a time, the Louisville Courier-Journal ran a locally-produced strip about a couple of black families. For some reason, the strip was discontinued.
I cannot think of the name, but the Indianapolis Star carries a comic strip about two families, one white and one black.
Crankshaft seems to have introduced a black character in a supporting role.
Lawrence in For Better and for Worse.

[SterlingNorth]

I thought they stopped writing "Wee Pals" a long time ago... Thanks Coyote. The Washington Post has NON of those strips, except "For Better..." And the paper carries about fifty.


Now that I think about it, the Telenovela example is not the best example out there. These shows are made by Hispanics for Hispanics. That is probably more explanitive of intra-racial racism by minorities. (In this case, it's better to be a European-desended Hispanic than an Native-Amer. or African-desended Hispanic) However interesting it may be, its probably a separate issue.

[The_Peyote_Coyote]

I thought of a few more cartoon characters, SterlingNorth.
Lt. Flap and Cpl. Yo in Beetle Bailey.
Also, the character Andy in Crankshaft was black. He has not appeared in a couple of months, though. I attribute this to the fact that he was Crankshaft's co-worker, and Crankshaft has retired.
Tumbleweeds, if it is still in print, had several Indians in recurring roles.
Nancy has Homer, although he appears quite infrequently, less frequently than Rollo the Rich Kid.

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[andros]

Sorry, David, I was speaking tongue-in-cheek with the Voyager thing. Sure, Torres is half Klingon, but she's still Latina, and I actually have heard complaints about her being a stereotype. The Tuvok thing is more of a stretch, but he is chief of security, a role often traditionally associated with guns and violence (the Sheriff ridin' in, lookin' ta clean up this town).

I was trying to point out that racial/ethnic stereotyping can be found by the obsessive even in situations that are clearly attempts at unbiased racial integration.

Haven't gotten the hang of that sarcasm thing yet.

-andros-

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"Listen Children Eternal Father Eternally One!" Exceptions? None!
-Doc Bronner

[SterlingNorth]

[b]Coyote[/i], i think i was being a tad bit sarcastic with the comics angle. anyway, thanks. i always wondered the name of the black leut. was in Bailey.

[astorian]

The black officer in Beetle Bailey is Lieutenant Flap- and I've never seen him do much except rant and rave over the squeaky wheel on Sarge's office chair.

[TubaDiva]

Casting had assumed white, but chose Yaphey Kotto, a black. He was the best at audition. But how often would
that happen.

Sorry, but this is actually based on real life; David Simon's "Homicide: A Year On the Killing Streets." Yep, there's real stories of real people behind the show. In fact, some of the dialogue is directly lifted from the book.

IIRC, in the book, Al Giardello (in the book, "Gary D'Addario") was as he is pictured in the show: Sicilian and black.

your humble TubaDiva



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"Death's at the bottom of everything, Martins. Leave death to the professionals." -- The Third Man

[furt]

Some perhaps irrelevant notes:

1) skin-colorism is also prevalant in Asia--light skin good, dark skin bad. Women in Japan and Korea commonly carry umbrellas to keep the sun off.

2) Moreover, many many cartoon characters (and animation is huge in asia) usually have caucasian features--round eyes, etc. Of course they also have purple hair...

3) Asian advertising is "racist." Probably 5-10% of print ads in Taiwan, Korea and Japan feature whites, who are .02% of the population. (It's less on TV, presumably for language reasons)

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"It all started with marbles in school..."

[Doobieous]

I think that it's funny that the majority of Latinos west of the Mississippi are mostly of Mexican heritage and also often dark skinned. Yet,the Spanish language television here hardly has any charcers with dark skin. Even the movies from Mexico tend to have light skinned actresses and sometimes the actors are dark skinned but they are usually the "vigilante" type.

Anyway, in Asia it is true, skin colorism is very prevalent. I noticed that in many ads from Japan the trend is to have the models more western (big round eyes, and skin that looks like it would burn in partial shade ). In the Philippines there are even skin lightening creams! Also, many women there wear light colored makeup to appear light skinned.

[SterlingNorth]

Ah gee Tuba, you had to ruin my counterexample. Anyway you gave support to my argument that unless the part says black, more likly than not they wont cast black.

Moreover, many many cartoon characters (and animation is huge in asia) usually have caucasian features--round eyes, etc. Of course they also have purple hair...

Furt, I may have an explination for that. Animation became big in Japan and Asia after WWII. In Japan, this came along with the desire to become integrated with the west. Be like America. So in that regard, ths came through in their drawings.

[Polycarp]

I'm curious if the parts of the President in Deep Impact and the "old lag" (forgot the name) in Shawshank Redemption were originally "written black" or if Morgan Freeman being cast for them is the counterexample you're looking for.

[divemaster]

The part of "Red" in Shawshank Redemption was not 'written black.' The novella Rita Hayworth and Shawshank Redemption was written by Stephen King, and set in Maine (IIRC). The novella didn't make an issue of race one way or another (not too many blacks in mid-century Maine I wouldn't think), and Red was Irish. An excellent read, BTW.

[tracer]

Regarding Tuvok on Star Trek: Voyager :

When I first saw the character of Tuvok, my very first thoughts were of a 1970s Saturday Morning cartoon series called The Super Friends. One of the super-heroes added to the series in its third year was named -- I kid you not -- Black Vulcan!

------------------
Quick-N-Dirty Aviation: Trading altitude for airspeed since 1992.

[AWB]

AWB:
What about on "Star Trek: Voyager".
B'Elanna Torres is always fighting the inner rage of her heritage. C'mon, Latinos aren't all hot-tempered!


andros:
Voyager has a hotheaded latina (Torres), a science-savant asian (Kim), a violent black (Security chief Tuvok), and a philosophical amerind (Chakotay). Not to mention Janeway as the mother figure, nurturing and caring, yet violently defending her brood.

I was joking about her Latino side being the cause of Torres' temper. Everyone knows it's 'cause she's a woman.

(ducking)

Yes, it's another joke!

[AWB]

The Peyote Coyote: I thought of a few more cartoon characters, SterlingNorth.
Lt. Flap and Cpl. Yo in Beetle Bailey.

I haven't seen Yo in quite a while. I think there was too much protest in his stereotypicity (is that a word?), and he was quietly removed.

What about Ms. Buxley, the general's sexy civilian secretary? She complains about sexual harassment, yet continues to wear micro-mini skirts that would make Ally McBeal blush. Not that I'm saying that she's asking for it. I just think she should have some professionalism and wear more conservative outfits.