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  #1  
Old 02-18-2000, 02:24 AM
ubermensch ubermensch is offline
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this was brought up in a conversation a friend and i had about that book that came out/is coming out about rape and nature, etc.

is it possible that the rapists were reacting to pheromones that the victims released?

could the rapists be very sensitive to pheromones?

i'm sure it would be an easy study. find out if the rape victims were ovulating at the time, or whatnot.
see if the rapists are sensitive to pheromones by doing the whole cotton ball with pheromones near the nose trick.

if there's a pattern, maybe this is the answer. of course, you'd have to rule out all of the crimes that were out of anger.

no, i haven't read the book. it could be in there (but from what i've heard, the authors didn't do much in the way of research). i did a quick search on the internet, but found nothing.

and if anyone gets an idea for research on this, credit me.

anyone got any clues?
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  #2  
Old 02-18-2000, 02:55 AM
Wicked Blue Wicked Blue is offline
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Rape is not about sex, it is about overpowering someone else. I don't think there would ever be a study on something like that, because AFAIK, scientists already know that rape isn't about sex. Sadly, elderly women and children are raped every day. I don't think they were giving off pheromones or were ovulating. Men and boys are the victims of rape as well....what would that mean? Do men give off ovulation pheromones too? Think about it.
I'm sorry if I'm coming off harsh, and I don't mean this as a flame, but your thinking is way off on this one. Trying to place some of the blame on the victim of a rape, even if it is unintentional, is a very bad thing to do.
(By unintentional I mean thinking that the victim's pheromones had something to do with them being chosen as a rape victim.)
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  #3  
Old 02-18-2000, 03:20 AM
ubermensch ubermensch is offline
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according to this book, which has been the subject of other threads on this board that i don't care to look up, rape may be partially to blame on a primal instinct in men (from what i gather). meaning, the instinct of spreading one's seeds takes precidence over monogamy. sure, there's some instances of monogamy in other species, but it's not the norm. their book contends that rape is not necessarily about control or violence against women.

i'm not even saying that rapists are 'normal'. it's quite possible that they've got mental problems. but i don't care to know about all that.

i know that rape does happen to elderly women, young children, and males. i should have added that to the OP. do a study on females of child bearing age.

but maybe that doesn't even be there.

suppose a guy lives with women (one, several, many, i don't know). around 'that time of month' he goes 'nuts', and goes out and rapes someone. basically,

could pheromones be a contributing cause of rape?

again, i am ruleing out all obvious acts of 'punish fucking' or any sort of directed violence against a woman, or women in general.

i don't want this to turn into a debate. i know rape is bad. i think rapists should be severely punished/put to death.
please don't respond to this if your reply is something to the effect of "how could you think this?" or "are you dumb?" or anything of the like. i'm looking for, "yes, there's been a study..." or "maybe, i've never thought of it that way..." or something like that.
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  #4  
Old 02-18-2000, 03:57 AM
Edward J Cunningham Edward J Cunningham is offline
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I'm afraid I have to differ. Rape is about sex. Although there are eldery people and children who get raped, most rape victims are women of childbearing age. To paraphrase the author Piers Anthony, to say that rape is not about sex is to say that eating is not about hunger.

That doesn't mean that rape victims are to blame, and this pheronomes theory comes dangerously close to that. By all means study this line of inquiry, but the problem with rape is not with what's wrong with the victim---it's what's wrong with the rapist.
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  #5  
Old 02-18-2000, 04:05 AM
Edward J Cunningham Edward J Cunningham is offline
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As far as the case of eldery women and children being raped, they may be singled out because of their weakness. The rapist may believe that he would have a better chance against weaker targets than normal women. Either that, or the rapists' own sexual needs may have become perverted--but that doesn't mean that he isn't driven by sexual desire.

I'll have to look up the original source, but the study which suggests that rape is evolutionarily driven studies several million species and found that rape occurs in most of them. That's a powerful argument, but it would be even stronger if it turned out that chimpanzees were one of those species, since we share over 99% of their DNA. Unfortunately, that is something I do not know...
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  #6  
Old 02-18-2000, 07:30 AM
H8_2_W8 H8_2_W8 is offline
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Surely some rape is not meant as violence but as forced sex, or even unknowing forced sex.

What about "date rape" which is generally a combination of alcohol, horny guy, a girl that doesn't fight back enough and then sexual penetration? The next morning the guy thinks she gave it up and they had sex. The girl thinks she should have been more forceful in saying "No" and wonders if she gave consent or not. Sometimes she thinks she's been raped, sometimes she calls the cops. He said - she said. (No, this is not the voice of experience!!!)

I think "rape" has been blown out of proportion by women's groups/feminists as a means of obtaining power. This is pretty evident when academic women's studies departments at major univerisities claim 1 in 3 women will be "raped" or sexually assulted in their lifetime, then in the fine print they include everything from actual rape to unwanted groping, verbal insults, workplace harrassment, etc. in coming up with that total. Make the people in power (men) look or feel bad about their behavior, then use that to grab more power for yourself.

BTW, I saw the interview with one of the authors of this book recently on 20/20 or Dateline or CNN or something, if it is the book in question. He was an anthropologist/sociologist professor from a CA university (Stanford maybe) and the reporter kept hammering away at him and the guy was just saying that SOME rape is sexual, not all. He said it didn't make it right, but it does explain some of it.
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  #7  
Old 02-18-2000, 08:10 AM
Keeves Keeves is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Blue Twylight:
Rape is not about sex, it is about overpowering someone else. I don't think there would ever be a study on something like that, because AFAIK, scientists already know that rape isn't about sex. Sadly, elderly women and children are raped every day. I don't think they were giving off pheromones or were ovulating. Men and boys are the victims of rape as well....what would that mean? Do men give off ovulation pheromones too? Think about it.
I'm sorry if I'm coming off harsh, and I don't mean this as a flame, but your thinking is way off on this one. Trying to place some of the blame on the victim of a rape, even if it is unintentional, is a very bad thing to do.
(By unintentional I mean thinking that the victim's pheromones had something to do with them being chosen as a rape victim.)
Rose
Sorry, but I think all the other posts make more sense than this one.

Blue Twylight, why does it have to be so black-and-white? I will agree that your points are valid, if you will agree that there are many borderline cases where other factors come into play. For example, as has been posted by others, just because young girls and elderly women get raped doesn't necessarily mean that it's not about sex; it can easily mean that they are easier targets. And I would imagine that most cases of date rape are certainly about the male's desire for sex, and only rarely is it due to his desire to do violence.
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  #8  
Old 02-18-2000, 08:47 AM
phouka phouka is offline
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To answer ubermensch's original post, I have yet to read of any study that proves a link between pheremones and any kind of behavior - let alone behavior as controversial and poorly understood as rape.

[small rant]To say that rape is only/always about sex, only/always about procreating or that it's only/always about power is to vastly oversimplify the motivation and actions of rapists. People rarely do anything - even the simplest of actions - for just one reason, and the circumstances that lead up to consensual sex, let alone forced sex, are complicated enough to spark a continual dialogue in our society. Rape, in all its forms is a terrible, brutal crime. If we want to prevent it, we need to do a better job of understanding what drives rapists to the act. Making political statements doesn't do the job. [/small rant]
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  #9  
Old 02-18-2000, 09:31 AM
Poysyn Poysyn is offline
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The way it was explained to me:

Rape itself is not about sex, it's about power, and sex is the tool. Sex is used to humiliate demean and overpower the other person whether they by 2 years old or 98 years old. It's like anorexia is not about food or weight loss; it's about having a sense of control when the person's life "seems out of control". Date rape, I havenít read any studies on, but the theory can still hold water. It still boils down to one person forcing their will on another and thatís called power.

Trust me when I say this is something I actually know about.
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  #10  
Old 02-18-2000, 10:19 AM
Jois Jois is offline
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I think the whole arguement about rape and pheromones would just barely begin to make sense if more men raped dogs and cats and ponies, rabbits, mice, and chimps at the zoo - you know, the animals that really do exude pheromones. If it were tue we'd be able to read about it at the supermarket nearly every day: "John Miller sues Harry Linen over rape of cow. Second time says Miller, cow now longer gives milk."



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  #11  
Old 02-18-2000, 10:20 AM
Konrad Konrad is offline
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It still boils down to one person forcing their will on another and thatís called power.
Right, so if I mug you then it's not about the money, it's about power?
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  #12  
Old 02-18-2000, 10:21 AM
Jois Jois is offline
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I think the whole arguement about rape and pheromones would just barely begin to make sense if more men raped dogs and cats and ponies, rabbits, mice, and chimps at the zoo - you know, the animals that really do exude pheromones. If it were tue we'd be able to read about it at the supermarket nearly every day: "John Miller sues Harry Linen over rape of cow. Second time says Miller, cow now longer gives milk."



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  #13  
Old 02-18-2000, 10:21 AM
ubermensch ubermensch is offline
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again, i'd like to mention, i don't want this to be a debate.
http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001116.html

please take any power vs. sex debate there.

the book is called "A Natural History of Rape : Biological Bases of Sexual Coercion" the authors are Randy Thornhill and Craig T. Palmer. A professor and instructor respectively.

with this thread, i only want to know if pheromones might be a factor in why men rape.

and from what i read in the above mentioned thread, i'm starting to believe it might be. i have nothing in my educational career to back this up except for my intuition (it makes sense to me) and what i've read about the book. the book, granted, does have it's flaws (i haven't read it yet, but i will soon), and the authors really didn't come across as knowledgible in any intervew i saw either in. but that doesn't mean the book is crap, nor the ideas put forth in it.

no one will end the debate whether rape is a sexual behavior, a need for power, or both. i don't plan on that happening here. if you'd like to revive the Rape is Natural? thread, feel free. or at least read it.
http://cnn.com/HEALTH/9803/11/pheromones/index.html

that's an old page from CNN, about 2 years old, that said a study from U of Chicago offers proof that humans react to pheromones. http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_206.html

in http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_306.html , we read "The author of this theory assumes that women in their brief monthly phase of peak fertility give off some pheromonic signal that drives men wild." could this signal be what the rapists sense (again, from maybe a mom, sister, girlfriend, or other woman whom he lives with, and not necessarily the rape victim)?
and again, in http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_039.html , toward the end, we find a study done 1983 showed that polar bears were attracted to menstrual blood. perhaps rapists are more sensitive to pheromones? i don't know, that's why i'm asking you.
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  #14  
Old 02-18-2000, 10:22 AM
Konrad Konrad is offline
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Quote:
It still boils down to one person forcing their will on another and thatís called power.
Right, so if I mug you then it's not about the money, it's about power?
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  #15  
Old 02-18-2000, 10:23 AM
Jois Jois is offline
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I think the whole arguement about rape and pheromones would just barely begin to make sense if more men raped dogs and cats and ponies, rabbits, mice, and chimps at the zoo - you know, the animals that really do exude pheromones. If it were tue we'd be able to read about it at the supermarket nearly every day: "John Miller sues Harry Linen over rape of cow. Second time says Miller, cow now longer gives milk."



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  #16  
Old 02-18-2000, 10:32 AM
ubermensch ubermensch is offline
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i think the straight dope just had a hiccup.

and i wanted to say i'm sorry my previous post was so fugly.
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  #17  
Old 02-18-2000, 03:27 PM
Wicked Blue Wicked Blue is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Keeves:
Sorry, but I think all the other posts make more sense than this one.

Blue Twylight, why does it have to be so black-and-white? I will agree that your points are valid, if you will agree that there are many borderline cases where other factors come into play. For example, as has been posted by others, just because young girls and elderly women get raped doesn't necessarily mean that it's not about sex; it can easily mean that they are easier targets. And I would imagine that most cases of date rape are certainly about the male's desire for sex, and only rarely is it due to his desire to do violence.
[/QUOTE]
I think I wasn't clear enough in my first post. I acknowledge that there are some cases, especially where drugs and alcohol are involved, where the definition of rape becomes a little fuzzy. In defense of my earlier post, I was responding to the question asked in the OP, which wasn't about date rape or forced sex between a married couple, but about men not being able to control their sexual desires, to the point of forcing sex on someone, because they smell pheromones. I happen to think that is ridiculous. I'm sure there are many 'scientifically' documented cases and/or studies that disagree with me, and maybe even some that do agree with me. I don't know, and since the person who started this thread doesn't want to start a debate about it, I'm not going to look. He was only looking for information on the theory of pheromones as a contributing factor in rape, and I may have jumped the gun with my reply. I will admit that my statement "rape is about power, not sex" may have been a little too black and white. What I should have said is that I think rape maybe more about satisfying the urge to overpower someone, with the result being sexual gratification, rather than just the need for sexual gratification alone. Better?
Rose

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  #18  
Old 02-18-2000, 04:28 PM
Edward J Cunningham Edward J Cunningham is offline
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What I should have said is that I think rape maybe more about satisfying the urge to overpower someone, with the result being sexual gratification, rather than just the need for sexual gratification alone. Better?
Yes.

Personally, I think the pheronomes theory is bunk for one simple reason--the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue. Millions of guys buy this issue each years because they are sexually aroused by the picutres of the models, even though they are not exposed to any of the models' pheronomes...
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  #19  
Old 02-18-2000, 05:05 PM
Jois Jois is offline
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Except for armpit odor (honest) very little has been studied about human pheromones.

I think the authors needed publicity for what in reality is going to be a pretty boring book.



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  #20  
Old 02-18-2000, 05:34 PM
ubermensch ubermensch is offline
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ED: i'm not saying that pheromones are the sole factor, and i'm definately not saying it's the only thing that arouses men. and i don't think that it's involved in all rapes.

BLUE TWYLIGHT: it's not that men can't control their sexual desires, but maybe the rapists in addition to being not all there mentally, are hyper-sensitive to pheromones, which put them 'over the edge' so to speak.

i'm going to be very defensive in this thread. i don't want to come across as a heartless asswipe.
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  #21  
Old 02-18-2000, 05:35 PM
OpalCat OpalCat is offline
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Quote:
I think the whole arguement about rape and pheromones would just barely begin to make sense
if more men raped dogs and cats and ponies, rabbits, mice, and chimps at the zoo - you know, the
animals that really do exude pheromones
I think that the pheromone/rape thing is bunk, but the above is just silly. Why would pheromones work cross species? Do the other animals rape eachother?
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  #22  
Old 02-18-2000, 06:45 PM
tbea925 tbea925 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by ubermensch:
is it possible that the rapists were reacting to pheromones that the victims released?
Certainly not an authority on the subject, but, especially in the US, most people are probably so perfumed/mouthwashed/scrubbed clean/dial-soap deodorized/razor smooth/downy fresh/minty clean that a self-respecting pheromone doesn't have a chance. If pheromones could be detected, the bearer would probably be regarded as being rather "funky" which is a cultural no-no.



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  #23  
Old 02-18-2000, 06:58 PM
WhiteNight WhiteNight is offline
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Quote:
Popsyn: [rape is about power] - Trust me when I say this is something I actually know about.
Unless you are the rapist, how much can you know about their motives? Rapists are sociopaths, sick people, and are likely not all identical in their upbringing and motives.

Quote:
OpalCat: Do the other animals rape each other?
Yes, I've seen studies of dolphin males pinning a female to the shallow seabed while others force sex on her. I've seen videos of rough ape sex, where the male is rebuffed and holds the female down and takes sex anyways.

But no, pheromones probably wouldn't work across species, or if they did, it'd be chimp -> man, not sheep -> man.

Ubermensh, I would think any study showing that rape is caused by pheromones to be bunk, but I wouldn't doubt that pheromones do play some role in that specific rapist/victim interaction, making that target more appealing to the rapist.

My next paragraph is not going to be PC, so if you're sensitive, don't read it.

Wearing 'sexy' clothes is a risk factor in getting raped! If pheromones do causes sexual attraction, then it's likely that they would also be a factor in rape risk.

This doesn't mean that the rapist is excused, or that the victim deserved it, but we need to be aware of risks to protect ourselves. I personally never show money while in a rough area of town and I don't walk through downtown alleys at night. If I was to get mugged, even doing this, the mugger, not me, would be to blame, I don't dispute this. But if I was mugged, it would be me who was beaten up, and in taking some responsibility for my own safety, I try to reduce risk factors as much as possible.

If pheromones are proven to be a risk factor then perhaps we could get a counteracting pheromone which women could spray on before venturing into a rough area, or even before a business meeting if they wanted to appear less sexual. This is similar to women dressing for whatever role they want to portray; clothes for a hot date aren't good clothes for jogging at night.


I think one of the problems with rape is that there was no evolutionary problem with it, it would be a valid strategy. Either seduce a women or rape her and your genes get passed on without your having to raise the kid. It's a problem in the scale of individual people, but for primative man it seems like it would have been a valid strategy. Thus we're probably conditioned to act upon sexual urges in such a way that is very incompatible with 'civilized' society.

Understanding what urges the unconcious mind looks for, and how to fool it, would be one step in avoiding rape. It obviously isn't enough to catch the rapist and punish them, because the damage is already done and it's not something that can be undone, like theft. If we can prevent rape from happening, it's better for everyone.
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  #24  
Old 02-18-2000, 07:09 PM
Lucky Lucky is offline
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Well, if pheromones do drive men to rape, I know some perfume copmanies that are going to go belly up.

:::Roger, sell. Sell now damn it!:::

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  #25  
Old 02-18-2000, 10:54 PM
ubermensch ubermensch is offline
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and that's one thing that sparked my theory. companies sell perfume that supposedly attracts the opposite sex. they say these work, but i've read no scientific proof that they for sure do (i know i haven't read .05% of the literature out there though).

and one of my point is that this wouldn't work if a man casually walked down a street, sensed or 'smelled' a pheromone laden woman, and raped her. i highly doubt if pheromones work that way. this would be more of a longer, been around a women who's ovulating thing. i think the pheromones would have to take a longer time to work than just 2 minutes. now, the rapists might not rape the person whose pheromones he sensed, but again he might.

don't male dolphins also sometimes batter, or try to have sex with women when the women are swimming with the dolphins?

i guess there could be other ways to study this, but all fail in real world settings. you could see if strippers bring in more money around whatever time of month their pheromones are the strongest. but then you'd have the other women who would throw the results off.

i don't doubt at all that humans are affected by hormones. look at a sorority house or a female dorm. many, if not all, of the women are in synch (a link is in an eariler post).
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  #26  
Old 02-18-2000, 11:07 PM
CalifBoomer CalifBoomer is offline
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Quote:
I'll have to look up the original source, but the study which suggests that rape is evolutionarily driven studies several million species and found that rape occurs in most of them. That's a powerful argument, but it would be even stronger if it turned out that chimpanzees were one of those species, since we share over 99% of their DNA. Unfortunately, that is something I do not know...
Hmmmmmmmm.........this is one of the arguments homosexuals use to justify their perversion. So, if animals exhibit homosexual behavior, it's ok ok for humans, but if animals rape, it's not ok for humans?
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  #27  
Old 02-18-2000, 11:17 PM
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I heard about a report, it may be the same one your talking about. It said that rape was not about power, it was about spreading genes, and that it may have ocurred often thousands of years ago. I don't agree with the pheromones idea, because it would mean that rapists don't plan a rape. Rapists seek their victims. i also heard that the way women dress is important. Example: serial killers look for a particular person, they don't kill anybody. Same goes for rapists, and that would link the spreading of genes--survival of the fitess
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  #28  
Old 02-19-2000, 06:13 PM
SINsApple SINsApple is offline
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I think we as a society like to know why bad things happen. This includes rape. We want to know why someone would hurt someone we care about, or someone innocent. So we search for reasons (pheromones, alcohol, genetics, the way she was dressed, etc). It will not change the fact that it is wrong. And by saying that it is in someone's genes, or was caused by natural body chemicals is really just going to provide a way for a rapist to say "See? It isn't my fault."

If it is evolutionary, then why don't all men force sex on woman? Because they are capable of stopping their apparently "primal urges." This means that the rapist did not choose to stop his. And as far as animals go, very few species use sex for pleasure. To them it is for procreation or dominance. Therefore, I think that lends more creedence to rapists using rape as a way to gain power. And I don't think men are like animals, in that they have an overwhelming desire to pass along their genes by force. Many rapists are married (sometimes happily), and are therefore already capable of passing along their genes that way. I don't think I have ever heard of a case where a rapist used this as his defense.

The pheromone idea sounds a little far-fetched to me, but if it could be proved then maybe I would give it more credence. But you have to see, that it still doesn't change it. You can't prevent possible rapists from living with women (who ovulate), and you can't prevent women from ovulating. So what does this help?

And the world may not be black and white, but Blue Twilight is not making shit up here. Many men rape for power. My sister's ex-boyfried raped her for the same reason that he emotionally blackmailed her--he didn't want her calling the shots. When she broke up with him, he felt the need to rape her so that he could feel in control of the situation. And how about a man who rapes his infant daughter with a hammer? (true case) Do you believe that is sexually gratifying for him?

The fact is, there is something mentally wrong with rapists. They do not function as normal members of society. They do not know wrong from right, and they never will. They need to be removed from society, and we need to stop trying to find excuses for their behavior. That money that you want dedicated to researching whether or not pheromones trigger rape would be much better spent on the victims of the attack. (counseling, trial moneys, etc).

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  #29  
Old 02-19-2000, 08:54 PM
Arjuna34 Arjuna34 is offline
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Not to pick on you, SINsApple, but your post contained a bunch of points I'd like to respond to:

Quote:
Originally posted by SINsApple:

If it is evolutionary, then why don't all men force sex on woman? Because they are capable of stopping their apparently "primal urges." This means that the rapist did not choose to stop his.
Just because ALL men don't do it doesn't mean the roots are evolutionary. At some level, everything we do can be considered evolutionary (provided you accept the theory of evolution, of course ). Remember, with the theory of evolution, the goal is for genes to propogate themselves, not for individuals to prosper. The theory is that it is advantageous for the gene pool for some very small amount of rapes (and murders) to occur, even though it is devastating for the individual victims. This holds for animals also- if it wasn't to the species's overall advantage, the predisposition would be bred out. The problem we have is that even if this was a useful thing for humans 50000 years ago, it's probably not useful now- just devastating. Unfortunately, it takes evolution a while to catch up to our quickly changing human condition. The theory further further states that since local culture affects the precise effects of having rapes (and murders), the predisposition isn't very hard-wired- it can be muted (or amplified) by local cultural conditions, and this ability to adapt to local conditions was evolved, also.

Quote:
Originally posted by SINsApple:

And as far as animals go, very few species use sex for pleasure. To them it is for procreation or dominance.
As Cecil said (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_064b.html ), "animals always do it for fun". It's unclear how much intent and motivation you can read into animal actions. The bottom line (according to the theory), is that they do it because they've evolved to behave that way, because it's best for the species (not necessarily for individuals, remember).

Quote:
Originally posted by SINsApple:

Therefore, I think that lends more creedence to rapists using rape as a way to gain power. And I don't think men are like animals, in that they have an overwhelming desire to pass along their genes by force.
Men (and women) are like animals, in the sense that we have evolved with certain pre-dispositions, which are moldable by local culture, upbringing, etc. I'm not sure that you can state than animals tend to pass along their genes by force. Also, with such an (apparently) low level of cognition among most animals, it's not easy to judge motivations among either party.

Quote:
Originally posted by SINsApple:

Many rapists are married (sometimes happily), and are therefore already capable of passing along their genes that way. I don't think I have ever heard of a case where a rapist used this as his defense.
Genes don't merely want to propagate, they want to propagate as much as possible. There is no precedent for this theory as a legal defense (and it's not intended to be), so you won't hear of too many rapists trying it.

Quote:
Originally posted by SINsApple:

The pheromone idea sounds a little far-fetched to me, but if it could be proved then maybe I would give it more credence. But you have to see, that it still doesn't change it. You can't prevent possible rapists from living with women (who ovulate), and you can't prevent women from ovulating. So what does this help?
The pheromone idea seems far-fetched me also.
I'm not aware of any compelling evidence that indicates humans have much (if any) reaction to phermones. Human females have evolved so that it's difficult to tell when they're fertile, unlike many other animals. More research is needed.

Quote:
Originally posted by SINsApple:

And the world may not be black and white, but Blue Twilight is not making shit up here. Many men rape for power. My sister's ex-boyfried raped her for the same reason that he emotionally blackmailed her--he didn't want her calling the shots. When she broke up with him, he felt the need to rape her so that he could feel in control of the situation. And how about a man who rapes his infant daughter with a hammer? (true case) Do you believe that is sexually gratifying for him?
The word "rape" is used in many (probably too many) contexts. What is needed is a more precise terminology. How useful is a term which groups together the act of sexually assaulting an infant with a hammer and the act of having sex with an unconscious, drunk college student? They are both horrible crimes, but (to me) they are different crimes, presumably with different motivations, root causes, etc.

Quote:
Originally posted by SINsApple:

The fact is, there is something mentally wrong with rapists. They do not function as normal members of society. They do not know wrong from right, and they never will. They need to be removed from society, and we need to stop trying to find excuses for their behavior.
Now we leave science and enter opinion. Here I happen to agree with you completely. I do think that it is possible some rapists can be cured, but only in some "Star Trek" type super-advanced technology, by manipulating a complex mix of hormones, etc.

I am just presenting the arguments for the evolutionary theory, not whether I personally believe in it or not!

Arjuna34
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  #30  
Old 02-19-2000, 10:44 PM
Arjuna34 Arjuna34 is offline
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One thing to keep in mind about the evolutionary rape theory is that it can't be used to explain the actions of individuals, just groups. A good analog is coin tosses. If you take 1000 pennies and flip them, probability says that about 50% will land tails, and 50% will land heads. Say the 502nd penny comes up heads. You can't explain why it did in terms of probability theory. The exact reason that particular penny came up heads that time has to do with minute details of wind, dirt on the penny, how it was tossed, etc. Probability theory for this case can only explain aggregate behavior, not individual occurances.

The evolutionary rape theory has the same limitation. You can't explain a particular case with it- it just predicts (or explains rather) aggregate behaviour.

Arjuna34
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  #31  
Old 02-20-2000, 05:40 AM
NanoByte NanoByte is offline
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Arjuna34:

Quote:
More research is needed.
Do you have a sign up: "My place or yours?"

No, I think all of your points here are well taken.

I don't understand all these other people, here and elsewhere, who dump subjective questions (which require empathy with the subjects of the question) in with objective ones (which can be linked up with existing models in dispassionate, objective science) -- as all the same game and in direct contention.

When one says an animal, human or otherwise, acts sexually (read, effects transfer or attempts to effect transfer of germ cells between sexes) in a certain way in order to maximize its genes in whatever pool, one is not discussing subjective intention / viewing entities teleologically; one is viewing outcomes in an objective phenomenal world which appears scientifically analyzable in a way communicable among cognizing human minds, whether these 1) have no feeling at all for what a rapist or a rape victim experiences from an instance of rape, 2) have communicated with either to the extent of feeling they "understand" empathetically what goes on in such act, or 3) are rapists or rape victims -- without feeling need of either 2) or 3).

On the other hand, psychologists and sociologists like to call what they fool with science, but it is clearly not objective science, any great deal more than what novelists write on the same subjects. When you argue about what animal (including human) behaviors are sexual or not, under various situations, you're invoking some sort of teleological imputation that is outside of objective science. You are saying that, for some reason, of an empathetic or ex(?)pathetic nature, you experience in such entity an act of a will based on a sexual urge you introspectively sense to be in common between you and that entity, or that you sense something of a different nature, including an act being in common with a different drive you yourself experience under different circumstances, e.g., violence associated with sex.

I completely agree with Arjuna34's explication that the evolutionary analysis is only valid as a logical explanation of a groupwide phenomenon. An attempt at an objective analysis of an individual sexual or otherwise-attributed phenomenon would have to dig into rather detailed objective study of the CNSs of the subject species, to the extent of tagging a collection of nerve tracts and cortices as stereotypically of sexual function in individuals of that species considered to be "normal", and then attempting to relate activities in these to same in various neural-signal routes in various individuals of the same species whose behavior is to be considered "abnormal", which in the case of civilized humans would include those exhibiting sexual or violent forms of behavior, phrased in objective terms, that correlate to subjectively defined acts proscribed in the particular civilized human culture. All of which would never break through to such as Blue Twilight, but. . .

I'm at a loss as to how to put a discussion of the mentioned babies-and-hammers association across in a tasteful way, but if this subject is one of insertion of an inanimate object into any orifice of a baby, which act is accompanied by any expressions of sexual gratification found otherwise only in common with acts of a sexual nature, despite a lack in the analyzer of any feeling of how this act could elicit sexual gratification in a person, it would seem that the analyzer should relate relate the act to such gratification. It's also difficult to see how fire and sex relate, but apparently they do in a quite small number of persons, by some combination of neural nature and nurture -- not that, on this somewhat subjective level, such an analysis is really objectively scientific.

Ray (I didn't claim I was going to fix anything. . .but I'll take it for broke.)
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  #32  
Old 02-20-2000, 09:55 AM
Nickrz Nickrz is offline
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David and Gaudere? Incoming..
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  #33  
Old 02-21-2000, 12:12 AM
tracer tracer is offline
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All rightie, then, the first question I should ask is: How many human pheromones have been isolated, and how many of these isolated pheromones have been conclusively demonstrated to work as pheromones on humans? And, among those successfully isolated and demonstrated human pheromones, have any been conclusively demonstrated to influence the male sex drive? (Second-rate perfume manufacturers have been creating junk-mail ad campaigns for years claiming to have produced products with pheromones in them -- but these mostly use androstenol, which is a pheromone generated by and for pigs, not humans.)

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The truth, as always, is more complicated than that.
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