10 commandments

[Danielinthewolvesden]

What is it with the religous Right & the posting of the 10 Commandments? I want to make clear I am not attacking the 10 Commandments. Even if you are not religous, you should admit the 10 Commandments are a important historical document, along w/ the Code of Hammurabi, the Magna Carta, the code Napoleon, Declaration of Independence, ect.
BUT, the 10 Commandments are not even Christian Law. Did not Jesus say He was the new Covenant? Is not one of the main differences between Judiaism & Christianity is that (most) Christians DON'T follow the 4th C(Keep the Sabbath)? And is not one of the big schisms caused by most of the Chritians not following the 2nd C.(graven images)?

So why all the big to-ro from the Chritian Right about the 10 Commandment? Why not the Sermon on the Mount? Or the Lord's Prayer?

[oldscratch]

I would think it's cause they can get away with it a little more easily. If they wanted to post somethign from the New testement or the lord's prayer it could more easily be seen as religious. This way they can hide behind the veil of important historical document.

[neuro-trash grrrl]

In addition, the fact remains that the Ten Commandments do retain a place in Christian thought and belief, even if a couple of the commandments have fallen by the wayside or been reinterpreted, such as the 4th (from "keep the Sabbath" to "go to church every Sunday"). Many Christians still feel that these form the basis of their moral code, and so the fundamentalists want to put them in public schools.

As for me, I say "You wouldn't put up multiplication tables in your churches, so don't put up the Ten Commandments in the schools."

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Heck is where you go when you don't believe in Gosh.

[Erratum]

First off, let me point out that not all Christians number the commandments the same way. As a former Catholic, I think of the "Sabbath" commandment as #3, and the "graven images" is rolled into #1. Catholics have separate "wife coveting" and "goods coveting" commandments, while Protestants generally roll them into one.

Also, I think it's a bit presumptuous of you to say that many/most Christians are worshipping graven images.

The reason that the Religious Right is so gung-ho about getting the 10 commandments into schools is because they believe that a "moral crisis" is occurring in america, which can be directly traced to lack or religion, and what they view as the morality that religion provides. They believe that the Ten Commandments can be presented objectively as a moral code, separate from religion. The Religious Right is somewhat correct that the Ten Commandments do form the basis for traditional Jewish morality, but it is not the Commandments themselves that are anything to write home about ("thou shalt not kill"? That's kind of a no-brainer when it comes to moral codes, isn't it?). The reason that the Ten Commandments are significant is that they are Commandments, rules given by God telling people how to live, i.e. they are totally worthless without a religious context, so the Religious Right is basically wrong that they can be presented as a valuable moral code in-and-of themselves. That probably won't stop them, though.

[Trout Mask Replica]

I'm against posting the Ten Commandments in schools. Proponents of posting them have asked me what problem I have with rules like 'Thou shalt not steal' and 'Thou shalt not kill', as though by opposing the posting of the Commandments, I'm also opposing telling people that they shouldn't lie, kill, and steal. I like to respond, 'My problem's not with the last six commandments; it's with the first four'. While the last six commandments admittedly are a pretty good guide for conducting interpersonal relationships, the first four are particular to Judeo-Christian belief, and it would be offensive (not to mention unconstitutional) to imply that people of other faiths should follow them as well. How would an atheist obey the commandment to 'have no other gods before me', or a Hindu obey the prohibition against worshipping idols?



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TMR
LETS RIDE THIS SAUCER FULL OF SupErlovE INTO OUR FORTOLD UTOPIAN MILLENIUM...

[Danielinthewolvesden]

Erratum: It's not "worship" it's MAKE, ie King James ver, Ex20: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth" (the next verse goes into worshipping them). One of the causes of the schism between the Roman Catholic & the Orthodox churches is that the Orthodox church believed in following this, ie no crucifixes, no statues of Jesus or the saints, etc.(icons are OK). The Roman Church believed such images are OK. Most Christians have no problem with this. (not worship, make).

Trout: I personally agree with you, except as another great historical document in a series of such. BUT, the thread here is WHY is the Religous right so hot to have them posted, not should they be posted (there is another thread for that issue).

[Trout Mask Replica]

Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden:
Trout: I personally agree with you, except as another great historical document in a series of such. BUT, the thread here is WHY is the Religous right so hot to have them posted, not should they be posted (there is another thread for that issue).

Heh, whoops.

I think the push for posting the Commandments, along with such things as school-sponsored prayer and the teaching of creationism in science classes, is a part of the RR's campaign to Christianize the public schools. An argument I've heard a few times in favor of the above goes something like 'We need to have our religion in schools, because for some kids it may the only place they hear about it'. I think this belies the RR's true purpose: they want a captive and impressionable audience for proselytizing their religion.



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TMR
LETS RIDE THIS SAUCER FULL OF SupErlovE INTO OUR FORTOLD UTOPIAN MILLENIUM...

[John Bredin]

Wasn't that deadly cult in Uganda -- 800+ dead the last time I read the news -- called the Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God?

Just an observation.

[Breckinshire]

Originally posted by John Bredin:
Wasn't that deadly cult in Uganda -- 800+ dead the last time I read the news -- called the Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God?

True, although "Thou shalt not join a wacky cult" seems conspicuously misplaced on the list.

[SingleDad]

True, although "Thou shalt not join a wacky cult" seems conspicuously misplaced on the list.

That's because, at the time, Jehovah-worship was a wacky cult.

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No matter where you go, there you are.

[Sterra]

Single... almost everyone was born into that religion

[SingleDad]

Sorry, flip comment. But there was a time when Judaism was not a wide-spread religion; its members were a minority, and perhaps seen as unusual and weird by their neighbors.

[Nu Vo Da Da]

But there was a time when Judaism was not a wide-spread religion; its members were a minority

Unlike now.....
(While Christianity certainly started out as a "wacky-cult" I don't really think that Judaism ever really fell into that catagory. Admittedly, the tribe in question was pretty small, but it wasn't a cult so to speak-it was just the tribal religion of a small, and rather insignificant at the time, group of people.)

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Profanity is the crutch of the inarticulate mother-fucker.

[Polycarp]

IMHO, the point behind the Ten Commandments in schools was pretty well summarized by previous posters, particularly Erratum, who did an outstanding job. The entire idea is that "most of the problems that afflict our great country are caused by a lack of values' of the sort WE had when we were young, and we need to instill in the kids those values." Since in the opinion of the Religious Right (which is neither), the proper basis for moral behavior is the Bible in general and the Ten Commandments in particular, one must therefore force-feed them the Ten Commandments, as the basis for getting them into a moral lifestyle. [Please note that any similarities between the opinions of the poster and those of the preceding paragraph are purely coincidental.]

Needless to say, no good Christian should think of attempting to impose these Old Testament rules on our kids. However, there are a lot of people who don't make the connection between what Jesus said and their own lives, and so think that they have the right to legislate others' morality.

[Navigator]

Actually Jesus said, "I did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill the law.' (my paraphrase)

He also said, 'the Law can be summed up as love the Lord God with all you mind, heart and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself.' (again paraphrase mine)

It seems no one has a problem with the latterpart, but the first part is the 'sticky wicket'.

Peace.



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† Jon †
Phillipians 4:13

[Polycarp]

Hey, Jon! Good to see you!

As I expressed to Adam elsewhere, I feel that the core element of Christianity as defined by Paul was freedom from the Law -- not just the dietary law but the entire structure of shalts and shalt-nots... that from being the subjects of God seen as King, we become the loved children of a Heavenly Father. Whence, while the Decalogue functions as guidelines to living a moral Christian life, the commandment aspect is non-applicable. In short, the tongue-in-cheek remark that they werent named "The Ten Suggestions" gets turned on itself -- for Christians, they are just that. Maybe 99.44%-of-the-time-valid ones, but only that.

[Navigator]

Poly! Good to see you too.

Freedom, from the letter of the law, but not from the Spirit of it. Jesus was pretty clear on how He wanted us to behave both in relation to Him, and to our fellow man.

To say we can toss out the moral law with the ceremonial and sundry laws I think is a bit of a stretch.

Perhaps they'll let us post the 'Golden Rule', that way we at least get the bottom half.



Peace.

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† Jon †
Phillipians 4:13

[SingleDad]

Actually, even the Golden Rule is not so great. I definitely do not want a masochist following it!

[Sterra]

Do as ye will but harm ye none

[Danielinthewolvesden]

Thanks folks, some good anwsers, and a nice lack of off thread rants! Is any of "us" a member the religous right, or know one to ask?

[Esprix]

Originally posted by Polycarp:

Since in the opinion of the Religious Right (which is neither)...

Poly's back! Yippee!

I prefer the term "radical right" myself...

Esprix

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Ask the Gay Guy!

[quadell]

Why do people want the Ten Commandments posted? Because we're Americans, and we like to gloss over complex problems with simple little lists. No one ever reads them. In fact, when you read them carefully (the ones in the Bible, not the pre-packaged paraphrase people like to show you), you start to think, hmm, maybe these aren't the most appropriate moral instructions for our children. (I'd love to go into "What's wrong with the Big Ten". . . Where's the appropriate forum for that?)

But even though no one really reads them, everyone seems to agree with them anyway, and thinks everyone else should read them. That's the essense of looking for a quick fix to complicated problems. Grocery-list morality is certainly good for getting votes, but for either prescribing ethics or making public policy, it's pretty lame.

Your Quadell

[DoctorJ]

(I'd love to go into "What's wrong with the Big Ten". . . Where's the appropriate forum for that?)

Oh, I think right here would be a fine place to go into just that.
(I'm going from memory here-bear with me.)

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Thou shalt not make any graven image.
Thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, and keep it holy.

These four have less to do with morals and more to do with God's ego. Those of us who understand the Constitution also know that these four are exactly what keeps us from posting them--it amounts to the government telling athiests, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. that they're wrong. The Religious Right-types believe the government has the responsibility to tell non-Christians they're wrong.

Thou shalt not covet

I can't really understand this one. Isn't capitalism based on the idea of coveting? You have money, I want it--how can I get it away from you? Duane has a boss Camaro, I want a boss Camaro, I need to earn money to get a boss Camaro.

Honor thy father and mother

Not a bad idea in general, but what if your mother and father beat you? What if they make you work for 10 hours in their sweatshop every day after school? This commandment would suggest that you just honor them and take it. You could say, "Oh, that's different," but that smacks of the evil Situational Ethics that the posting advocates are trying to avoid.

This leaves us with:

Thou shalt not kill.
Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.

So there's the moral code our kids are lacking--don't kill, steal, lie, or fool around on your spouse. Go find any kid over, say, six and ask them if it's OK to kill, steal, lie, or fool around on your spouse. I can't imagine many of them will say, "Yes." These are not big secrets that we're keeping from our kids, folks!

Sorry for the rant, but this is a huge issue here in Kentucky. People cannot separate morals and ethics, and cannot separate ethics from religion. I'm tired of hearing about God being taken out of our schools, and the corruption of our moral fiber, and how everything would be just peachy fine if we were only a theocracy. Sheesh.

Dr. J

[quadell]

Dr. J., I agree with your conclusion (I'm in KY too), but I want you to know. . . those aren't the Ten Commandments. Those are someone's easy-to-swallow paraphrase of the Ten Commandments.

I'm going to give my patented Ten Commandments Rant now. (I was invited, after all.)

What's in the Bible (Exodus 20) is:

I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. You shall have no other gods before me.

Okay, so YHWH is in charge. Flies in the face of every religion except the Big Monotheistic Three. What do you say to a Hindo child? "Sorry, but this school says your religion is wrong and ours is right"?

I'll also note that no god brought me out of Egypt. This directly states its target audience were the Jews living at that time. Not modern America.

You shall not make for yourself an idol [or image] in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Holy cow! The Ten Commandments say God will punish me for my great grandfather's sin? Yep. In fact, for the "sin" of worshipping their own religion freely. Artistically, even. This is not a friendly god here.

You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

Wait, this is one of the Big Ten? Lying didn't make the cut; assault, bullying, slavery, none of these were included, but saying "Oh my God" warrants inclusion?

Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

You can see why they paraphrased this one. Okay, besides being overly long, tacitly condoning slavery (what do you think "manservants" were in those days?), and being totally arbitrary, this has to be the least followed Commandment. Don't work on Saturday, hmmm? Has anyone here ever met a Christian who followed this commandment? Down to not letting his kids work? No one respects this commandment, and rightly so. It's irrelevant. Even Jesus worked on the Sabbath, and was persecuted for doing so (Matthew 12). Kids are given homework to do on the weekend. This is moral instruction? It might have made sense for a nomadic people, 6000 years ago, but it holds no relevance to contemporary American law.

Also, you'll note this is the first Commandment where YHWH makes clear he's only talking to men. (Property-owning adult men, it would seem.) The Ten Commandments were certainly not equal opportunity (but the real blatant sexism doesn't occur until later.)

Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

I think that's the real reason people want the Big Ten up in schools. (By the way, what land is the LORD giving me? I think I missed out on something.)

You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.

All routine stuff, found in most religions. The murder line, of course, wasn't enforced real consistently. (See most encounters the Israel had with its neighbors.) Adultry, by the way, was sex with a married woman. Who wasn't your wife.

You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

Note that this says nothing about lying in general: just purjury. I guess kids purjuring themselves is a big problem nowadays?

And last but not least:

You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything else that belongs to your neighbor.

Read that again. A man's wife is his property, according to the Ten Commandments, plain and simple. Anybody still want that in schools?

Seeing past that, I personally don't feel coveting is wrong. But many religions have similar prohibitions. (The sutras in Hinduism, for example.)

. . .

So there they are. The Ten Commandments. Not something I want in my kid's classroom.

Now if this is your religion, I understand that. All these complaints I have - a limited audience, an arbitrary moral code, the disapproval of other belief systems - these are all par for the course, so far as religion goes. I'm not saying they're any worse than the Sutras, the teachings of the Gautama Buddha, or that overly simplistic "An ye harm none" business. But to put a set of instructions up in school requires that those instructions have merit from an objective viewpoint. And these just don't cut it.

Your Quadell

[John Corrado]

Esprix said:

I prefer the term "radical right" myself...

Ick. Please don't confuse us state's rights, minimalize the government except for massive defense spending, nuke Cuba for Elian's sake types with those religious wackos. The conservative- even the extremist- right wing isn't necessarily the religious right wing.

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JMCJ

Give to Radiskull!

[Danielinthewolvesden]

I agree, mostly. And since this is my thread, I'd think that you guys are staying on thread. Going to prayer in schools is another issue.
I still say the 10 Commandments (yes, in full, not bowlderized), would be OK, IF in context. The Code of Hammurabi is pretty brutal at times, and the Magna Carta is more about the rights of the nobles than the "people". But, together, w/ a few more, they show some of the history behind our laws today. The bit about posting a "short-cleaned up" version, by itself, in all our schools is just stupid.
good posts, guys!

[Glyph]

Here are your 10 Commandments Summarized:

1. Do not have any other gods before me.
2. Do not make for yourselves any idols.
3. Do not use the Lord's name in vain.
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy.
5. Honor your Father and you Mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not be guilty of adultery.
8. Do not steal
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not envy.

There they are summarized. Here they are explained.
1. Do not have any gods except me. So all the other religions are wrong.

2. Do not make for yourselves any idols. So do not put anything else before God.

3. Do not use the Lord's name in vain. If you love God, you will not use his name to curse others.

4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. Go to church on Sundays. You could at least honor him for a couple of hours 1 day a week.

5. Honor your Father and you Mother. Do as your mother and father say as long as they are following God's laws.

6. Do not murder. Common sense. And it looks that lately a lot of the kids at our school need to hear this, but is going to take more than just posting these on the walls of your schools, but that is a whole other thread.

7. Do not be guilty of adultery. Another common sense but if mommy and daddy did it, why is it such a bad thing?

8. Do not steal. Common sense again, but it continually happens.

9. Do not lie. This is pretty straight forward, and if everyone followed this law, we would not have a lot of our problems. "But a little lie never hurt anyone." Give me a friggin break.

10. Do not envy. Or do not covet, as it is a lot of times put. Do not want your neighbor's spouse or property. You can strive to have a house like his house, just don't want his.

You have to realize a couple of things. That these commandments does prohibit having other religions, as all religions do. Everyone who follows this religion has to believe in it, and in which case makes others like atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, etc wrong. Also, do not take the exact words to heart. Back in those days it was a male dominant society. So a lot of it does refer to women and property or other wise. It is not to be taken word for exact word. You are to take the principles behind it and apply that. That is what I have attempted to do here for you. I may have done a poor job at it considering the intimating environment, (being the minority in the argument). But you all have valid points and if I were to take as Quadell quoted I may not want it in my schools either. But it is the principal behind these commandments that make them needed.

Also in all honesty, one of the reasons I see this as such a big deal is because religions in general, are getting kicked so far out school; this is just a step back in the right direction.


Well that is what I have for now.

[Danielinthewolvesden]

Umm, the Sabbath is SATURDAY, per the 10 Commandments. And this is just part of it. The 10 Commandments apply to modern Christianity about as much as the code of Hammurabi. We are not saying that there is not good lessons in them, the 10 C. just do not apply to most Americans. The Bible also prohibits the eating of Pork, but you don't see the religous Right wanting to prohibit pork in our schools. Not to mention the scads of other dietary pohibitions. Why pick the 10 Comm?

[MKM]

Originally posted by neuro-trash grrrl:

As for me, I say "You wouldn't put up multiplication tables in your churches, so don't put up the Ten Commandments in the schools."

Actually "multiply" appears 46 times in the KVJ Bible. Here are two of my favorites:

Genesis 1:28

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth...

and Hebrews 6:14

Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

But to the OP...

As one of those "fundies" who wouldn't mind seeing the ten commandments on the wall of every school and public building, I'll give my perspective. I'll say I agree with a portion of what Erratum said above. I do see a moral crisis in this nation as a result of the attempt for the past 30-40 years to squelch the public free expression of religion. The 10 commandments are important for several reasons. First and foremost, they are the moral foundation for both Judaism and Christianity. But they were also the basis for British common law which in turn made them (to a somewhat lesser extent) the basis for the law of our Land.

Now let me say, I'm not out there on the forefront demanding the 10 commandments being posted, but I do support the effort.

One problem I have is that those who so adamently oppose seeing those 10 Commandments feel like they are having religion thrust down their throat. Maybe that isthe intent of a few of those more extreme fundies who are putting them out there, but for most of us, it's the moral value they have for everyone that I see as the importance. So what is the problem with seeing a list of things that people should live by? Heaven forbid they might actually have a positive effect on someone...


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"We love Him because He first loved us." 1 John 4:19 †

[Gaudere]

I do see a moral crisis in this nation as a result of the attempt for the past 30-40 years to squelch the public free expression of religion.

I have seen greater freedom of religion for those who do not worship the Christian God, but perhaps that isn't what you meant...

So what is the problem with seeing a list of things that people should live by? Heaven forbid they might actually have a positive effect on someone...

If you'll note what other's have said, that's pretty much the problem: that it is telling all children that they should believe in the Christian God, and not use his name in vain, and take Saturday off, etc. If you lived in a primarily IPU-worshipping land, would you be just as happy to let your Christian child go to a public school that posted the IPU's commandments? You have every right to publically express your religion as a private citizen, and to teach your child in your beliefs, but don't you think that if a public school was explicitly endorsing the codes of a religion not your own, you'd feel they were interfering with your right to freedom of religion? If you simply want a list of moral rules (not that I think it will really do much good: "Well, I was going to murder my entire class, but I saw "Don't Murder" posted next to today's lunch menu! Wow, I had no idea it was wrong!"), fine, I'll listen to your proposal; but *all* of the Ten Commandments don't make the cut. What is moral about an atheist or Hindu not making "graven images", or taking off the Christian God's day? Truly, I can see from *your* point of view, it is best for all people to follow the Christian God, and a little push from the government to do so is a good thing; what if *you* were the minority religion (yet were just as sure that you had the one true religion) and another religion's moral code was posted on the walls of *your* child's public school?

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Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorn is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that She is pink; logically, we know She is invisible because we can't see Her.

[MKM]

Gaudere wrote:

and a little push from the government to do so is a good thing;

Why is it not a problem for them to be chiseled into the walls of the Supreme Court of the United States - or should someone get the chisle out and remove them from there also? After all, by your reasoning, those in the "minority religion" may not get a fair trial.



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"We love Him because He first loved us." 1 John 4:19 †

[The Ryan]

Glyph

Also in all honesty, one of the reasons I see this as such a big deal is because religions in general, are getting kicked so far out school; this is just a step back in the right direction.

I think that it pretty clear from the OP that we were discussing schools in the US. I don’t know what county you’re from, but here in the US religions are not being “kicked out”.

MKM

I do see a moral crisis in this nation as a result of the attempt for the past 30-40 years to squelch the public free expression of religion.

What are you talking about?

The 10 commandments are important for several reasons. First and foremost, they are the moral foundation for both Judaism and Christianity.

Well, Christians ignore #1 (that whole “Trinity” thing is a cop out), #2 (a crucifix is a graven image), #3 (you worship a guy that proclaimed himself to be God. How much more can you take God’s name in vain?), #4 (I don’t see many people taking Saturday off, or even Sunday), and they don’t seem to pay much attention to the rest of them.

But they were also the basis for British common law which in turn made them (to a somewhat lesser extent) the basis for the law of our Land.

Do you have documentation for that claim?

One problem I have is that those who so adamently oppose seeing those 10 Commandments feel like they are having religion thrust down their throat.

So when non-Christians get annoyed at Christians pushing their religion on everyone else, it’s the non-Christians that are to blame for getting annoyed, not the Christians’ fault for annoying them?

Maybe that isthe intent of a few of those more extreme fundies who are putting them out there, but for most of us, it's the moral value they have for everyone that I see as the importance.

So let me see if I have this correct: you believe that these are moral values “for everyone”, that is, you believe everyone should follow them, yet you don’t see that as thrusting religion down everyone’s throat?

So what is the problem with seeing a list of things that people should live by?

Because I don’t like other people telling me how I “should” live my life.

And how is posting a list of moral laws on a wall indoctrination?

You don’t see how forcing children to see the Ten Commandments every day is indoctrination? Sure, they don’t have to read them, but they still know what they say, they still know they’re there, they still know that this is the official viewpoint of the government under which they have to live.

It's not like we are talking about a lot of people, here to make a decision to look at and read the Commandments and be offended by them.

I’m going to just assume you had a momentary bout of insanity and don’t actually think that that is relevant.

[Esprix]

Originally posted by MKM:

BTW, are you aware that 95% of Americans profess belief in God and 85% identify themselves as Christian? By contrast only 7% identify themsleves as atheist or agnostic and less than 1% total among Bhuddists, Muslims and Hindus (from Barna Resarch Org., 1999) It's not like we are talking about a lot of people, here to make a decision to look at and read the Commandments and be offended by them.

"Unless all men are free, no men are free," or something to that effect. This country stands for religious freedom, not religious rule by majority. The 10 commandments, beneficial as they can be, do not belong posted in the public school classroom.

Esprix

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Ask the Gay Guy!

[Gaudere]

And how is posting a list of moral laws on a wall indoctrination? You choose to look at them or you don't. You choose to live your life by them or you don't.

Well, if they're not going to be useful at getting anyone to follow them and believe them if they're not going to anyhow, why post 'em?! And why the Ten Commandments, out of all the options? Is there any good reason besides that they are your religion's laws? Commandments 1-4 don't even cut it as a good law; should it be universally morally wrong to disbelieve in the Christian God? Should it be universally morally wrong to use His (and His alone) name in vain? Should it be universally morally wrong to work on Saturday? I think everybody can agree on "don't murder", but several commandments look a bit "iffy" if you're looking for a universal standard of "right" behavior for society. A far more suitable choice would be "do unto others as you would have done unto you", which was expressed by Confucius, Buddha and Cicero before J.C. came along. However, I still don't see how just posting a "to do" list is going to help our kids! It seems like a feel-good patch.

It's not like we are talking about a lot of people, here to make a decision to look at and read the Commandments and be offended by them.

Ah, the tyranny of the majority. Remember, Christianity was once a minor cult too. That is what I am trying to get you to think about, when I asked how you would feel if you were in the minority and had your child go to a public school that posted another religion's laws as the "right thing to do". Is such a situation a thing you would have approved of, if you were a Christian before it was popular? I'll ask again: "How free would you feel your practice of religion, if *your* public schools are required to post a religion's commandments that are not your own, with the justification that it will help *your* child's morals to have the public school endorse another religion's laws?"

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Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorn is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that She is pink; logically, we know She is invisible because we can't see Her.

[Trout Mask Replica]

Originally posted by MKM:
And how is posting a list of moral laws on a wall indoctrination? You choose to look at them or you don't. You choose to live your life by them or you don't. It's not the same as organized school prayer which I am against. (Prayer and religious discussion outside of the classroom by students, fine, but like you I am against organized prayer during class time)

BTW, are you aware that 95% of Americans profess belief in God and 85% identify themselves as Christian? By contrast only 7% identify themsleves as atheist or agnostic and less than 1% total among Bhuddists, Muslims and Hindus (from Barna Resarch Org., 1999) It's not like we are talking about a lot of people, here to make a decision to look at and read the Commandments and be offended by them.

MKM, imagine for a moment that the US was 85% Muslim and Christians were a small minority, maybe 5-7% of the population. The Muslim majority votes to post the Five Pillars of Islam in all schools and public buildings in the nation. If you protest, you are basically told 'Too bad. The majority wants them up there, so if you have a problem with them, then don't look. Anyway, what problem do you have with things like giving alms to those less fortunate than you? Isn't that the kind of thing a person of any religion should do?'

'But you're missing the point!' you respond. 'These are the laws of a religion I don't subscribe to! Why should they be posted in government buildings? Don't you feel that that's an implicit acknowledgement that the government says this is the "right" religion to follow? Don't you think that those who don't follow that religion would find this offensive?'

'Like we said, too bad. If you're offended, we're sorry, but frankly, it's not as though there's a lot of you to offend.'



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TMR
If you believed in yourself, and tore enough holes
in your pants, there was always a mist-filled alley
right around the corner.

[andros]

MKM, while a few others have the argument from majority thing in hand, I'd like to challenge your numbers just a little.

from www.census.gov:
"Some statistics on religion can be found in the 1998 Statistical Abstract of the United States, Tables 89, 90, and 91"

According the the Census Bureau, (and these numbers are self-reported, BTW, as the gov't is not allowed to ask religious questions as part of the census) 85 percent gave christianity as their religious preference. That might sound like semantic quibbling, but when coupled with the fact that only 52.7% of the population actually attends church, it's important.

(I'm pleased that the Barna group and the Feds are in accord, BTW.)

-andros-

[andros]

Excuse me, that's 52.7% who attend regularly.

[quadell]

Hi. Me again.

MKM said:
> I do see a moral crisis in this nation as
> a result of the attempt for the past 30-40
> years to squelch the public free
> expression of religion.

You can put the 10C up in your home, or on a sign in your yard. No one's stopping you. I could put a sign saying "Satan Is Lord: Don't work on Wednesdays" up. It's a free country. But it would be inappropriate to put either of these up in mandatory public schools. That would be the endorsement of one religion view over another.

> But they [The 10C] were also the basis for
> British common law which in turn made them
> (to a somewhat lesser extent) the basis
> for the law of our Land.

No. Read them. If they were the basis for the law of our land, it would be illegal to work on Saturdays, worship any god but YHWH, or say His name in vain. And the law would apply only to men, like the 10C.

Instead, our law is based on a number of different sources, but fundamental in them is the separation of Church and State. Which is why the 10C are allowed in private CHURCH-sponsored schools, but not public STATE-sponsored schools. Separate.

> . . .it's the moral value they [the 10C]
> have for everyone that I see as the
> importance.

Do you really feel that the instruction to not worship any god but YHWH is a universal moral instruction, applicable to Hindus?

> By contrast only 7% identify themsleves as
> atheist or agnostic and less than 1% total
> among Bhuddists, Muslims and Hindus.

If the Bill of Rights were only meant to apply to the majority, we wouldn't need it. You say there are few non-Christians? That doesn't mean we can safely ignore their rights; that means we have to be more careful that their rights are not trampled by the majority.

Imagine if someone wanted to put this up in public schools:
1) Do not worship Jesus.
2) There is no god but Vishnu.
3) Do not work on Wednesdays.
4) Do not use the word "Buddha" in vain.

See? You wouldn't stand for it. You'd call it persecution. And it would be. So is posting the 10C.

Your Quadell

[Hey Hey Paula]

How about this for a compromise: Public schools may post the Ten Commandments, but only in the original Hebrew!

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"The analyst went barking up the wrong tree, of course. I never should have mentioned unicorns to a Freudian." -- Dottie ("Jumpers" by Tom Stoppard)

[MKM]

I'm short on time right now, so I can't respond to everything posed to me and my view. I will make a short general statement that I disagree that posting of the 10 Commandments in a public place is indoctrination of any kind. I've stated why above.

I honestly don't see why there is such fear of 10 statements posted on a wall when there is free choice of whether or not to view them, much less live by them.

To the minority question posed to the hypothetical situation where I'd find myself in the minority - even as small as 5-7%. Funny, I find myself in that situation right here and I continue to hold to my personal faith and values despite what else is posted to me or placed in front of me. I don't see why it would be any different in any other situation where I or anyone else would find themselves in the great minority.


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"We love Him because He first loved us." 1 John 4:19 †

[andros]

I don't see why it would be any different in any other situation

Well, it looks like that's the end of the discussion then. As per usual, it's extremely difficult for a member of a majority to empathize with the minority.

-andros-

[Keenan]

It still seems to me that the proponents of putting the Ten Commandments up in schools are trying to have it both ways.

They defend posting them by pointing to the decline of religious values in the United States, and the social ills that result. By posting the Commandments, we'd undo the damage of our increasingly secular worldview.

But, when it's pointed out to them that elevating one religion's code above all others and giving them the implicit sanction of the school system and the state goes against the separation of church and state and infringes on the rights of minority religions, the Ten Commandments become just a list on the wall, that you can look at or not look at.

Either they have a special meaning, or they don't. If they do have this special religious meaning, then by all means, teach them to your children. Get your neighbors to do the same, if you can persuade them. But you can't make the state force them on people. If they don't have this special meaning, then why are you fighting so hard to put them up?

[Danielinthewolvesden]

MKM, etc. and even if the 10 C form some Basis for common law, the 10C are based upon the Code of Hammurabi, which also has the benefit that there are no extant believers of the old Babylonian Gods*. If you want to post the source, POST the SOURCE!


*OK, there may be 1 or 2.

[MKM]

Originally posted by andros:

Well, it looks like that's the end of the discussion then. As per usual, it's extremely difficult for a member of a majority to empathize with the minority.

Excuse me? And who is in the minority in this place?



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"We love Him because He first loved us." 1 John 4:19 †

[Gaudere]

Well, unfortunately, this board is not a perfect demographic representation of the US; the groups who have the most influence here may have diddly-squat in the "real world". So complaining that you are a minority *here* does not genuinely give you minority status anywhere outside this MB; and if you think that many of us do not understand very well what it is like to be a minority, I suspect you are sorely mistaken. Still, I give you my word of honor that *even if* IPUism becomes the majority religion in the US, I will never ever try to get the teachings from Her Holy Note Cards hung on the walls of public schools, because I respect your right to not have a different religion's "moral laws" officially endorsed by our public schools. Will you promise the same about posting *your* religion's particular laws?

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Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorn is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that She is pink; logically, we know She is invisible because we can't see Her.

[Gaudere]

Who said no one has a problem with them being chiseled into the walls of the Supreme Court? Would you be as gung-ho for it if it was Buddhism's eightfold path posted there? Or is it only *your* religion's laws that get to be posted in government buildings? [Side note: I am unaware of the context of the Ten Commandments carved into the walls of the Supreme Court; if they have other religion's laws as well, that would be considerably more fair.]

After all, by your reasoning, those in the "minority religion" may not get a fair trial.

Please explain what my reasoning is, since I must be unaware of it. And I ask you as well: how free would you feel your religion, if your public schools are required to post a religion's commandments that are not your own, with the justification that it will help *your* child's morals by endorsing another religion's laws? I think public schools should be in the business of teaching, not religious/anti-religious indoctrination.

[andros]

I wonder how folks would react if instead of "In God We Trust," our currency read "There is no God but Allah."

[The Ryan]

Originally posted by MKM:
Excuse me? And who is in the minority in this place?

Being a minority (and actually, I'm not convinced that Christians are a minority here) in a Internet message board is hardly the same as being a minority in the real world. It's pretty easy for you, as an adult who can leave anytime he wants, to say that he doesn't have any problem with being in the minority here, but what about children who are forced to attend school and simply haven't developed the emotional strength to stand up to pressure to conform?

[MKM]

Originally posted by Gaudere:
Or is it only *your* religion's laws that get to be posted in government buildings?

*shrug* Ask those who decided that those were the laws they chose to chisel there. I suspect it's because as I said before, the 10 commandments were the basis for British Common Law and therefore, at least partially, the basis for American Law.

I think public schools should be in the business of teaching, not religious/anti-religious indoctrination.

And how is posting a list of moral laws on a wall indoctrination? You choose to look at them or you don't. You choose to live your life by them or you don't. It's not the same as organized school prayer which I am against. (Prayer and religious discussion outside of the classroom by students, fine, but like you I am against organized prayer during class time)

BTW, are you aware that 95% of Americans profess belief in God and 85% identify themselves as Christian? By contrast only 7% identify themsleves as atheist or agnostic and less than 1% total among Bhuddists, Muslims and Hindus (from Barna Resarch Org., 1999) It's not like we are talking about a lot of people, here to make a decision to look at and read the Commandments and be offended by them.



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"We love Him because He first loved us." 1 John 4:19 †

[Danielinthewolvesden]

MKM: tho we do not agree, you show the courage of your convictions. Thanks for posting & livening up this debate!