Batman vs Superman

[Cactus Jack]

Who's better? They are both types, archetypes, even. Which do you prefer?
I'd say Batman, because we can relate to him. Anyone, if they worked hard enough, had enough motivation, enough money, enough time, could become Batman. Plus, he's not preachy like Supes. He's resourceful and even a bit vicious.
Superman, on the other hand, is very hard to get into. Call me xenophobic, but he IS an alien. Okay, he's thoroughly American, but he's got all this power -- he can fly, he's strong, he's got heat and x-ray vision, and he can turn back time, if need be, and fix things. He is so good and noble and powerful that he makes all other heroes superfluous. And, by extension, he makes the rest of us normal folks look terribly foolish and inadequete.
In the movie "Angus," the kid's grandfather says "Superman isn't brave. Good and decent and kind, but not brave."
I agree.

FWIW:
On the one hand, I would much rather live in the Batcave than the Fortress of Solitude. On the other hand, Superman had better enemies than Batman (haven't read one in a while, we're talking 1960's here, OK?). Batman mostly went after jewel thieves and international crime rings, with an occasional lunge at the Riddler or Catwoman. Superman had Lex Luthor, who I always thought was MUCH more fun than the Joker.

Batman, being mortal, was always in greater physical danger, and so wasn't as much to read about. When Superman got into physical danger, it was always something outre like green Kryptonite, not simply being dropped into a tank full of alligators.

It's a little early in the morning for me to participate in a deep metaphysical discussion here. Sorry.


------------------
"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!" - the White Queen

[JoeBlank]

You say we can "relate" to Batman, because he has no super powers and Superman does (although they have been toned down in recent rewrites, no turning back time, etc.). But look at them as characters with a personality, not just as superheroes.

Clark Kent was raised by kind and loving parents, who choose to take the responsibility of raising him because they could not have a child of their own. The world was good to Clark, so he is good to the world.

Bruce Wayne saw his parents murdered for the sake of greed. He grew up bitter, and full of hatred. Eventually, he managed to focus this hatred into good deeds, but the basis for his actions is revenge, and preventing the horror that he endured from happening to others. This is also manifested by his taking in orphans and raising them as his "wards" (the previous Robins, with the exception of the most recent, who I believe has lost his mother but still has his father).

As you say, they are both "archetypes" but I would certainly not envy Batman. As to the question of who is "better", as a fictional character I personally prefer Batman. Tragic characters tend to be more interesting in the long run. But I certainly do not dislike Superman, and the two complent each other well.

[Cactus Jack]

You don't like Catwoman? What's wrong with you? Heck, even heterosexual women think Catwoman is kind of sexy.
Lex Luthor's better than the Joker? The Joker's psychotic. And funny. He's got a gas that kills you and makes your face stretch into a grisly smile. How cool is that?
Lex Luthor wants vengeance on Superman because, when they were both in college (yes, it was "Smalltown University"), Superman accidently fouled up a science experiment of Luthor's, causing him to spill a beaker on his head with some chemical that made all his hair fall out permanantly.
Yes, they have since re-done that origin. But that's how he started out. Pretty lame. The Joker started out as a small-time hood who Batman pushed/accidently-on-purpose knocked into a vat that gave him a permanant smile and clown face. Pretty strong motivation, I think.

[Cactus Jack]

Joe.
I agree with everything you said. No, I don't particularly envy Batman (it's like wishing you were Oedipus), but I don't envy Superman, either.
Imagine confining yourself -- out of some sense of duty, out of social responsibility -- to a planet of total inferiors. Imagine looking down from space, seeing what needs to be done to fix the world's problems, and then having to tell yourself, "No, I can't do that. These plebes have to make their own way. I'm here for emergencies, only." Then watch them screw it up, again and again, and have to clean up the mess, again and again, to no avail.
Sounds a little like hell to me.

[Scylla]

I much prefer Batman. Batman isn't held to the goody-goody moral standards that Superman follows. He has cool toys. I'll bet the Batcave has been known to rock on occasion, but I doubt there's ever been a party in the Fortress of Solitude. Superman is also, not particularly smart, whereas Batman is a genius.

Most importantly, Batman can have sex if he wants to. (though his affection to his "wards" always struck me as slightly suspect.)

If Superman so much as gets a stiffy, the whole world is in danger. This topic was amply and hilariously covered here:
http://www.blueneptune.com/~svw/superman.html

Think of the self-denial.

[Cactus Jack]

Maybe I should have called this post: "Could Batman beat Superman?"
I think he could, given enough time to prepare.

[kunilou]

My experience is also out of the 60s, but I have to go with Superman.

Superman's first memory was being separated from his parents just before his home planet blew up, destroying everyone and everything he knew.

Then he was adopted by a warm, loving family and had a peaceful youth -- except that he always knew he was different and had to keep it a secret.

He was the most powerful person in the world and could do nothing to save his second set of parents, either.

He accidentally maimed a brilliant scientist, who blamed him and swore revenge, and couldn't do anything about that, either.

And the public who idolizes him is more than willing to tear him down if he makes the slightest mistake or can't respond in time.

You think Batman is a tragic figure? At least Bruce Wayne is a wealthy, respected member of his community. Clark Kent is a nobody, living on a reporter's salary, in love with a co-worker who thinks he's a dork.

------------------
I understand all the words, they just don't make sense together like that.

[Arnold Winkelried]

I wouldn't care to be Superman, and even as a kid I would sometimes get irritated by him. I mean, he has superpowers and can pretty much do anything, but he spends time pretending to be a reporter? What for?

He'll fly by and see a car falling off a bridge, so on the way there, he saves those people. How about the 100 people dying in a ferry accident in the Philippines? Are they worthless?

The whole Superman as hero idea comes with too many difficult issues that aren't resolved very clearly. I haven't read Superman in a while, but I do remember seeing one recently where at the end of the story he was helping some starving farmers sow crops. Maybe he should be doing more of that!

[Spoke]

My gosh, people! Of course it would be better to be Superman! The man has x-ray vision for pity's sake! Need I say more??!!??

OK, here's my impression of Superman using his x-ray vision on Lana Lang:



------------------
--In France I'm considered a genius.

[tracer]

Personally, I prefer Spider Man.

[Squee]

Maybe I should have called this post: "Could Batman beat Superman?"
I think he could, given enough time to prepare.

Ever read Batman:The Dark Knight series? Batman does indeed get to kick Superman around a bit, but only with a bit of help from the Green Arrow....

[The Raven]

Alright! A true great debate! (no, just one I get to comment on)
One of my pals down here told me just yesterday some interesting things about Superman. Apparently he was originally supposed to take over the world in that first comic, but when World War 2's shadow started spreading, the creators decided that he would instead save the world. And I agree totally with the idea that constantly saving the planet would be hellish.
And yes, I think that 'Batman: The Dark Knight Returns' answered the question of whether or not Batman could defeat Superman in a fight. And Batman also has the superior animated series too, IMHO.

------------------
Windows: Just another pane in the glass

[Keeves]

One of the very best lines from the Lois and Clark show:

Superman is just what I do. Clark is who I am.

[tracer]

A girl wrote:

At least Superman doesn't whine like Spiderman does.

That's 'cause Superman doesn't have a major newspaper decrying him as a menace to society, to the point where the police actually think he's a crook, like Spiderman does.

[Bucky]

Originally posted by Cactus Jack:

I'd say Batman, because we can relate to him. Anyone, if they worked hard enough, had enough motivation, enough money, enough time, could become Batman.

In the movie "Angus," the kid's grandfather says "Superman isn't brave. Good and decent and kind, but not brave."
I agree.

First, no, we could not become Batman. He's got a genius level IQ,is a world class athlete, and has virtually no fear. He is also almost psychotically driven. It would be nice to think we could, but then the character wouldn't really be Batman.

Superman in "The Final Night" is willing to risk his life to save the earth when he has no powers. Same thing in the end of "Reign of the Supermen" (okay, he has a little of hois power, but he just came back from the dead!). Same in a JLA episode where he has his consciousness switched to another body. So, he is brave. But, I'll admit they did that (losing powers sometimes, reducing them generally) to make his more interesting.

P.S. The original Luthor/hair bit was at Smallville High School--Clark went to Metropolis for college.

Bucky

[A girl]

That's 'cause Superman doesn't have a major newspaper decrying him as a menace to society, to the point where the police actually think he's a crook, like Spiderman does.

Then he should MOVE! Sheesh!

A girl

[Ukulele Ike]

Move away from NEW YORK CITY?

Where else is there?

(to be serious for a second, as this is an incredibly serious topic, Spidey NEEDS to be in New York, so he can swing from skyscraper to skyscraper. What would he do in L.A.? Run through the streets? He could swing around the lakefront in Chicago, but if Doctor Octopus committed a crime four blocks west, he'd be stuck running through the streets again.)

[Cactus Jack]

Bucky. Thanks for your good info about Luthor and Supes in high school, although you have to admit "Smalltown University" has a nice, ironic ring to it.
As for any of us being Batman, well, I wasn't trying to imply that anyone could dress up like a bat and do everything he does, in the exact same way he does.
What I was trying to say is that anyone could push themself to become a great crimefighter and super-athlete IF they had the motivation. No, they probably wouldn't end up as cool as Batman, but you could become something very like him. But you'd have to develop your own gimmick. Batman'd get pissed and come after you if you went around calling yourself "Batman." As a scientist and inventor with a host of hired lawyers, he knows all about copyright infringement.
The one thing I've always felt about Bruce Wayne and his intelligence is that it has less to do with natural gifts or him being born with a genuis level IQ than it does with hard work and endurance. If he's brilliant, it's because he wants to be, forces himself to be. I admit I don't really have any proof of this. But I think we are meant to take his origin -- in which he was a totally normal, goofy kid until he watched his parents die -- as the ultimate turning point. He snapped, inside, and his insanity took the form of dedication, organization, and relentless hard work rather than the "drooling in the corner" kind of craziness.
I think that's what all of his villians are about, too. They're reflections of him. They're all insane, as equally obsessed with riddles, jokes, cats, coins, and penguins, as Batman is with hard work. (Don't say Batman is obsessed with bats -- the bats are the method, not the madness.)
So Batman's a good guy, but only because his obsession and insanity comes in a more palatable form.
As for Spider-man, yeah, I think Peter Parker is a whiner, too. At least, he used to be -- I dunno what he's like now. Spider-man, the costumed hero, tho, was very cool and not at all like Peter Parker. He was like an alter ego, which was interesting Batman, I think, is just Bruce Wayne in a mask. Superman is Clark Kent in a cape. But Spider-man, in costumes, was totally different from wimpy, put-upon Peter Parker. Spider-man cracked jokes and made fun of the bad guys, enraging them, while he was beating them up. Very cool. And while I prefer Batman, I think Spidey's powers are super-cool and I'd love to have them. They are, at least, internally consistent in a way Superman's are not. There's no real connection between superbreath, x-ray vision, heat vision, and strength and the ability to fly.
But Spidey's are all spider-related -- he's as agile and fast and strong as a spider of proportianate size, and he can stick to walls just like a spider can. No, he can't spin his own webs, but I'd say if he could, that'd be okay. Although he's better off with web-shooters, since a big spider couldn't sling webs as far and fast and for as long as his web-shooters can.
My final feeling on Spider-man is that, yeah, he's cool. Peter Parker is not cool or interesting at all. And as for "everybody in the city hates me and thinks I'm a criminal," big whoop. Rub some dirt on it.
You think Batman would care if everybody hated him? You think he'd let it bother him? No way.

[danielnsmith]

Here's a question for Spidey fans:

I've watched the cartoons and read some of the comics. Many times, Spiderman is on top of the tallest building around, yet he swings off of it. How does Spidey get his web to stick to the air? That'd be a neat trick.

As for the Batman/Superman debate, I think Batman is better. His abilities are understandable. Superman get's his powers just because he's under a different color of sun? Get real, even the X-Men have a better explanation!

[A girl]

Hey, the cops of Gotham, with the exception of Gordon, aren't real crazy about Batsy either, but I can't picture him driving the Batmobile home to stately Wayne Manor and crying about it! If Spidey has to stay in NY, so be it. He should learn to command some respect. Bruce doesn't care if the cops hate him. He does what he's going to do and that's that. Strong, serious, and silent is what gets the job done!
No WHINERS!
A girl

[kellibelli]

I beleive you all hav eit backwards. Superman is far more tragic than Batman. Supe can never settle down, have a family...there is no 'real boy' ending for this Pinnochio. Supe is way brighter than he lets on too, and this leads to his unhappines and isoplation - why do you think he had the Fortress of Solitude? He is a truly sad figure...he has already peeked, there is nowhere for him but down.

Batman OTOH, is a 'real man' and the 'right' woman could heal his wounded soul.... for him its the search for inner peace that drives him to be batman, when he finds this peace, even if it should be through death, he will no longer need 'batman'.

As for his genius etc... its all relative. He is rich, therefore he can afford the 'toys' and research and the easy coverof Bruce Wayne. If he had been poor like Spiderman, he could NOT have become Batman. He would have still had the crime fighter drive.... but with no real 'powers' he would have been useless. Sooooo, his money/the death of his parents is what allows him to be Batman. But if his parents hadnt died, he would never have been Batman anyway.

Batman's story is far more satisfying than superman's exploding planet stuff. And Batmans attraction to Catwoman - yowza!! Now that is a great story line.

I really enjoy the Batman Beyond series, it gives us a real brutal look at the man Bruce Wayne becomes, as opposed to the man he could have been had he found the inner peace he needed.

------------------
Sesquipedalophobia --fear of long words

[Ukulele Ike]

Originally posted by danielnsmith:
Many times, Spiderman is on top of the tallest building around, yet he swings off of it.

He'd HAVE to, wouldn't he? He'd shoot a web over at the Chrysler Building, say, from the Empire State Building, then jump off and smoothly swing down in a graceful arc. What's he gonna do if he shoots UP at a building?

Reminds me of the old MAD Magazine lampoon, "Batboy and Rubin." They swing in on the Batrope, then gradually loose momentum until they're just hanging onto a immobile rope.



------------------
Uke

[cleosia]

As for the newspapers painted Spiderman in such a bad light, a PR person could go far in helping to project the right kind of image!

------------------
Bitch by Birth

[Jai Pey]

IMHO, regardless of whether or not I'm entitled to it...

I'd have to say Supe's is the better "superhero" while Batman is the better "vigilante". There's gotta be a big distinction drawn there: Clark/Supes chooses to operate within the law, and to uphold it. Batman, OTOH, does what he has to do to prevent crime, using any means at his disposal, inside and outside the law if necessary. So, while I hate saying it, its apples in oranges in at least one way.

For the record, the villans have drawn me more than the heros... Lex, cool and hairless as he is, is no match for the Joker. Now there's a bad guy.
Incidentally, I thought Jack Nicolson did an awesome job as the Joker.

Regards,
jai pey

[Occam]

In "Angus" the grandfather says Superman isn't brave. If you can't be hurt you never have anything to fear. Since I think being brave is the foundation of being a hero, I have to go with Batman. Besides, he look's like a modern-day Zorro and must get as many chicks.

Pro-Superman people: Don't give me any crap about how Kryptonite makes him vulnerable. You can't compare a rare earth metal as a weakness with a mortal than can be killed with a properly thrown spoon.

[Bucky]

Occam--Superman can be hurt and suffer and die when he has no powers. If he risks himself then, I submit that he is being brave. An earlier post (by me) lists just a few times within recent years he has both lost his powers (even dying once, for Pete's sake) and yet risking himself to do good. If interested, check it out.

One could even argue that since Batman sometimes shows a death wish that he isn't brave--one who hopes to die is unlikely to be afraid of it.

Superman has grown as an interesting character in my eyes precisely because he can be destroyed. Also check "Kingdom Come" for a brave action towards the end--I can't specify without spoiling it, but could tell folks via e-mail.

[tracer]

Bucky wrote:

If I were writing comics, I would explore Superman's loneliness more--he really is the next closest thing to a god, but lives among mortals (Christ imagery abounds throughout).

Hercules imagery also abounds in the Superman comics. (Not the least because both characters are superhumanly strong.)

But then again, Christ imagery abounds in the Hercules story and vice-versa; i.e. both had a god for a father and a mortal woman for a mother, both suffered through trials, both have had several low-budget movies made about them, etc..

[Weirddave]

FWIW, I always liked Bats. I agree with, I think it was Stephen King, who said the strength of the Batman character was the fact that he had no superpowers. Superman could blow Metropolis back into position after Lex Luthor had floated the city away, but Batman had to stop the crime before it happened.
[slight hijack]
My favorite hero has always been Firestorm, tho. ( the original, when he was half a kid and half a scientist.) I loved the duality of the character. He was a kid, who did something stupid to impress a girl,( attempt to sabotage a nuclear power plant) and it resulted in his being fused with the scientist who had also done something stupid( started the reactor to prove his theory ) into a different being: Firestorm. He hadn't planned on being a hero, but he did his best to live up to his powers, while dealing with the awkward issues we all deal with as a teenager. His powers were awsome, too. He could rearange the molecules of anything into anything else.( except organic materials.) That ment if Superman was hunting him, He could turn the air into Kryptonite, and Bingo! Supes would be down.

[/slight hijack]

------------------
Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it.

[A girl]

Batman rules.

He's way smarter than Superman and has a nicer @$$. Utility belt full of interesting
-- shall we say, "apparati"? (What girl could say no to that!?? ) Bruce also runs all kinds of businesses and charity foundations while saving the city at night! He's great! Not some mamby-pamby reporter who waits for Lois to show up with the story before he scoots over and saves the day. Yawn! At least Superman doesn't whine like Spiderman does. Yuck!

Bruce/Batman is my hero.
http://www.thecats.com/images/batarang.gif

Yes, it's mine, and yes, it's very, very sharp, and yes, it's fun to throw it and slice stuff.

A girl

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

The story od Superman is the story of the American Immigrant.


He comes from far away (very far away)
with nothing. No name or family or home, except his new one.

He come to the heartland of America, the Midwest. He is adopted into a family of farmers; people of the soil who love him as if he were their own , & raise him in their values.

He discovers that he has something unique to give to others. He gives this gift, unselfisly & unstintingly; asking nothing in return, other than the chance to help others in need.

He can never go home again-- but , although he remembers his "old country"--Krypton--he is home.

He wears his costume, not merely to conceal his identity, but to become a symbol of hope to those in need. His Clark Kent glasses could be viewed as a mask, worn for the sake of modesty as much as disguise-- he is humbly living a simple life as Clark Kent. He does not wear his costume to be famous--he is , at heart, a simple man (simple doesn't mean stupid) whose goal is to live in the service of others.As a reporter, he is dedicated to Truth. As Superman, he is dedicated to Justice. As a man is is definitively what Americans wish they were (well, most of us).

On our good days, we occasionaly come close. (I don't ignore or deny the days when we don't even try--but they are outside the scope of this thread.)

Yes , Superman is a hero. And a very ordinary man. Perhaps he is the realization & the symbol that ordinary men can do extraordinary things, if they try.

------------------
You should tell the truth, expose the lies and live in the moment."-Bill Hicks
"You should tell the lies, live the truth and expose yourself." - Bill Clinton

[Cactus Jack]

Borsda. I like what you've said about Supes a great deal. Nicely put. But this part about "He comes from far away with nothing"? I can't buy that. He's got superpowers, doesn't he? Or are we talking on the purely metaphorical level, here? Or does the fact that he doesn't manifest those powers until he reaches America (I guess on Krypton, with its red sun, he'd have been a normal human) play into what you're saying?
On the other hand, I don't see how superbreath functions on the metaphorical level. It seems a real stretch to try to draw a literate correlation between x-ray vision and the immigrant's dream of America. It's just not very poetic.
Strength and the ability to fly? I can see that. Guy reaches America, grows strong, learns to spread his wings and fly.
Nice. Poetic.
The ability to see through lady's clothing? Well, not so much.

[Scylla]

Perfect people piss me off.

The ancient Greeks thought so too, which is why all their best heroes are tragically flawed.

If you are born perfect you are not "great," your just fulfilling your potential. To be great you need to overachieve (impossible for a perfect being like Superman.)

In sports, and in life, the very best of mankind takes their weaknesses and turns them into strengths. That's what greatness is about.

------------------
Who am I? He who dares drink, who knows that to drink is to die, yet dares drink on am I!

[tracer]

Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor wrote:

Yes , Superman is a hero. And a very ordinary man. Perhaps he is the realization & the symbol that ordinary men can do extraordinary things, if they try.

And if they can bench-press an apartment building. And shrug off bullets fired at them by their detractors.

[Bucky]

Cactus Jack, I think I get what you mean about "being" Batman now. He's the character that makes us say, "yeah, if I had that kind of money (and ability) that's what I would do, too." You can't do that with Big Blue.

The DC 1,000,000 story, BTW, has Superman alive in the 853rd Century, finally finding a lasting love. If I were writing comics, I would explore Superman's loneliness more--he really is the next closest thing to a god, but lives among mortals (Christ imagery abounds throughout). How is he happy?

A great variation on supes is The Samaritan character in Kurt Busiek and Alex Ross's "Astro City."

I love comics and superheroes far too much for my own good...

Bucky

[Prosser]

Let's be frank: which "secret identity" would you rather have-millionaire playboy or nerdy newspaper reporter? I put my vote on living in Wayne Manor myself. Add to that your potential love interest. I'd rather have Batman's chances: Kim Bassinger, Michele Phifer, and Nicole Kidman over Lois Lane (whatever the actress was in Superman I, II, and III).

[tracer]

danielnsmith wrote:

I've watched the cartoons and read some of the comics. Many times, Spiderman is on top of the tallest building around, yet he swings off of it. How does Spidey get his web to stick to the air? That'd be a neat trick.

In the old Ralph Bakshe Spiderman cartoons, he shoots his weblines to anchor points that are clearly far above the top of the New York City skyline, and still manages to swing from them.

I figure these cartoons are all taking place during the movie Independence Day, and Spiderman's webs are actually sticking to the underside of the giant flying saucer hovering over Manhattan.

[JoeBlank]

Ukulele Ike says:

"Spidey NEEDS to be in New York, so he can swing from skyscraper to skyscraper. What would he do in L.A.? Run through the streets?

There was a fairly humorous Spidey comic about 10-12 years ago were he had to go after some crook in the suburbs. The cover blurb said something to the effect of "Now Cometh . . . The Commuter" and had Spidey riding on the roof of a bus. The plot was him having to figure out how to get around outside the city. That's about all I remember.

Kelli, you make some great points. (I'm glad you are back). I think Bruce Wayne settling down, either by choice or due to age, has been a subtext of the comics, and more explicitly in Batman Beyond, for a while now. After the second Robin, Tim Drake I believe, was killed by the Joker, Bats stayed away from sidekicks for a while. Now he realizes that he will not live forever, but Gotham needs Batman, in one form or another. He now sees himself as patriarch of the Bat family, so much so that when a new Batgirl appeared recently he made it a point that she would only be allowed to operate in Gotham with his approval, and by his rules.

Now he has Robin, Nightwing (the 1st Robin all grown up), Batgirl, and a few others on his side who can carry on if something happens to him or if he should retire, for whatever reason.

I would say that on a day-to-day basis, Superman has more happiness and a better life than Batman. Clark is now married to Lois, and for whatever reason Superman has always tried to have a normal, human side to his life. Bruce Wayne has no normal life. In fact, he only exists as a mask worn by Batman.

[Guy Incognito]

Bucky:

I second your recommendation about reading "Kingdom Come". Ross and Waid really came up with a brilliant story which compares and contrasts Batman and Superman.

Another source I would recommend which sheds light on the superhero mythos is Alan Moore's "Watchmen". The Rorschach character echoes Batman in a way, although his methods are far more extreme. Check it out--it's one of the most deeply layered comic storylines I've ever seen.

As for me, I don't think I could ever choose between Superman and Batman. Both are compelling, but I think Batman's enemies are more interesting.



------------------
"It's only common sense,
There are no accidents 'round here."

[Bucky]

Guy, I agree, but would go even further.

The Watchmen is simply a great work of fiction, graphic novel, super hero, or otherwise.

Bucky

[mazirian]

Superman is the Al Gore of superheroes.

Silly men in thights...



------------------
For once you must try to face the facts: Mankind is kept alive by bestial acts.

[Guy Incognito]

Bucky,

Interestingly enough, "Watchmen" is being used as one of the required reading texts in one of the Arts & Sciences classes at Indiana University. Don't know which class specifically, but it sounds like a class I would like to attend.

I'm not a fanboy by any stretch, but I have to say that "The Dark Knight" and "Watchmen" would make the very best comic adaptation movies ever. No storyboards or rewrites needed, just put 'em on film as they are. Animation would probably work best, though, and they would probably have to be adapted in a miniseries format.


------------------
"It's only common sense,
There are no accidents 'round here."

[Anti Pro]

Yeah, Batman's villians are more interesting, and there has to be an advantage when your enemies have question marks all over them, are dressed in black leather, or have green hair. You can certainly see them quicker!

Superman can fly !! His x ray vision sees through houses, he could stop a train with one arm tied behind his back, extremely advantageous !

It's always bugged me, though, that people are fooled by Clark. There just has to be some kind of mind control at work here!
------
Judy

------------------
"Muck should replace 'suck'. For 'muck' is yucky, while 'suck' feels very lucky. So, don't stay stuck on suck, switch to MUCK, today."

[Nu Vo Da Da]

Or maybe(if you'll recall the SNL sketch) they're all just humoring him because they like having superman around.

------------------
Profanity is the crutch of the inarticulate mother-fucker.

[Clark K]

Sure, I could dress in black and act all moody and mysterious and everybody would think I'm cool. But just because I wear bright clothing and try to be a good role model for kids, people think I'm a dork.

Hey, if you think I have it easy just because of a few superpowers, you try stopping a living super-computer or keeping the sun from going nova or even stopping a rapist without giving in to the temptation to crush his skull into powder.

Jeez, I've got to get a new PR guy ... (grumble, mutter, grumble)

------------------
Up, up and away!

[Esprix]

Superheroes aside, I have to agree that Batman has better villians - The Joker, The Riddler (my fav), Catwoman, The Penguin, Mr. Freeze... what a rogues gallery! And all emminently rememberable, whereas the first and only one people can remember of Superman's is Lex Luthor. Um, and I guess that General Zod guy. Hmmm...

OK, so I don't read the comics, and Batman had a cheesy TV show and a better movie franchise, but still - his enemies have panache! Surely that counts for something?

Esprix

------------------
Ask the Gay Guy! (or, if you prefer the Jesusfied version, Asketh the damn Priest Guy!)

[Spoke]

whereas the first and only one people can remember of Superman's is Lex Luthor. Um, and I guess that General Zod guy.

Hello? Does Brainiac ring a bell?

And I'll say it again. Supes has x-ray vision. He can fly. He can squeeze a lump of coal into a diamond, so he'll never be caught short financially. 'Nuff said.

[tracer]

mazirian wrote:

Superman is the Al Gore of superheroes.

You're just sayin' that because Al Gore looks like Christopher Reeve.

(Well, okay, like a more-wooden Christopher Reeve.)

[Lux Fiat]

The Dark Knight Returns, Kingdom Come, Watchmen, and the Astro City series are some of the greatest stories ever set down on paper, with or without pictures, IMHO. Then again, I'm a giant dork, so my bias is clear.

The Dark Knight Returns gives an especially good treatment to the idea of Batman as the pinnacle of human achievement (but at what price?) and Superman as a being so powerful he is akin to a force of nature (no matter his intentions, that much power is frightening to behold). Kingdome Come also deals a lot with the relationship between Batman and Superman both as people and as exemplars of their respective M.O.s.

I'd also suggest, for those who think Superman's a chump, reading A Superman For All Seasons, by Tim Sale and Jeph Loeb. I'd always fallen on the Batman side of the Batman/Superman debate until reading Kingdom Come, and after reading A Superman For All Seasons, I'm not sure that I haven't been converted to the other side. Big Blue is certainly not perfect, as some here believe. Imagine it: by birth, you're almost a god. By upbringing, you're a decent and sympathetic man, with a sense of responsibility to match your power. It's not just that you can help lots of people with your power, you feel obligated. It would be easy to be overwhelmed by your own expectations for yourself. Not to mention lonely in your position.

Superman's just as driven as Batman, in his own way. Hell, Superman's parents were as big a factor in his becoming a hero as Batman's were, though in a different way.

Not that I didn't relish watching Batman kick the crap out of Supes in Dark Knight. I'm a sucker for a good David and Goliath throwdown like anybody else.

------------------
"Are you frightened of snakes?"
"Only when they dress like werewolves."
-Preacher

[Lux Fiat]

Man, I'm a nerd.

------------------
"Are you frightened of snakes?"
"Only when they dress like werewolves."
-Preacher