how do airplanes fly?

This subject came up in another thread and rather than interrupt that one, I figured a new one might be in order. I don’t know if this might belong in GC, but there are so many misconceptions floating around that it seems like it would fit pretty well here.

Everyone has seen the diagrams in high school textbooks showing a diagram of a stream of air that splits into two, part going above and part going below an asymmetric wing section. The explanation provided by such sources, and in fact believed to be the whole story by many people (even many pilots!) is that some magic (which is never quite explained) requires the air above the wing rejoin with the air it used to be right next to, the air passing over the wing must travel faster, and thus there is lower pressure above the wing, and the plane is “sucked” upwards (so to speak) by low pressure.

There is some truth in such explanations, although much of what they say is flat out wrong as well, and at best, they miss the bigger picture that most people are unaware of. If pressure differential caused by the asymmetric cross section was the only thing going on, then (1) planes with symmetric cross section wings could not fly (but they do), and (2) planes with “normal” wings could not fly upside-down (but they can, at least if their engines and so on are designed for it), and (3) the air right after a plane flys through it would not be moving down (but it is). In fact, Newton’s law says that when there is a force present (as there must be to hold the plane up against it’s weight), there must be a reaction mass accelerated in the opposite direction. The reaction mass in this case is air. The Bernoulli explanation is not “wrong” so much as “only part of the picture, and in a big way, a byproduct of more fundamental things”.

No airfoil can fly in straight and level flight at a zero degree angle of attack, which is a misconception held by many people who have only seen the simplistic Bernoulli explanation in textbooks. In reality, the angle of attack is far more important than the wing cross section. A simple wing, with no control surfaces at all, can fly in what most of us would think of as an inverted condition, if the resulting angle of attack is positive. It may not be as efficient, but it will fly. In fact, even perfectly flat wings can fly (although ineffeciently except at very low airspeeds). So why are most wings made with a more curved surface on top then? To a large extent, to preserve laminar flow. Turbulent flow causes huge drag losses, and it turns out that you can tune the cross section to best preserve laminar flow in the desired speed regime by giving it the sort of camber we’re all familiar with.

Furthermore, it is not in question that airfoils accelerate a mass of air downward. You can see this by standing underneath a large plane as it flys slowly overhead - there is an incredible downwash of air from the wings. The plane has to accelerate something downword. Helicopters, which are just rotating wing aircraft, are exactly the same thing, and most people would agree that they are accelerating a bunch of air downward. They do have lower pressure regions above their wings, just as a fixed wing a/c does, so that explanation is not really wrong so much as missing part of the picture.

The exact manner in which the air is accelerated downwards is sort of complicated and probably not easily discussed in a text forum like this, but there are some web resources that discuss it, and you can find better explanations than I can give here in more advanced texts on aerodynamics, but a decent simplified explanation can be found here: http://www.rz.uni-frankfurt.de/~weltner/Flight/PHYSIC4.htm - this site has a lot of related information such as pictures from smoke pulse generators in wind tunnels where you can see what’s happening. It’s a worthwhile read. There’s another site here: http://www.monmouth.com/~jsd/fly/how/htm/airfoils.html#SECTION00680000000000000000 which says similar things.

Now, is anyone prepared to argue that airplanes do not accelerate air downwards when flying straight and level? If so, let’s debate it :slight_smile:


peas on earth

I’m not sure which side I’m on, but I found some other interesting links:

Airfoil Lifting Force Misconception in K-6 Textbooks

Model Airplanes, the Bernoulli Equation, and the Coanda Effect

Airfoils and Airflow

How Airplanes Fly: A Physical Description of Lift

jrf

Thanks for the excellent explanation and links.

I can see little too argue with. Thank you for clearing up a longstanding misconception on my part (damn those lying textbooks!!!)

At the risk of picking another nit, and being mistaken: in the previous thread you stated that an airplane was supported by a column of air.

This till does not seem the case to me. Rather an airplane accelerates a mass of air downwards, and the reaction is that the plane is propelled in the opposite direction in a way Newton would feel very comfortable with.

The mercury in a barometer on the other hand is actually supported by a column of air.

I’m hoping that this slight misstatement on your part will enable me to weasel out of the argument with at least a draw.

Let me know what you think.


“Don’t just stand there in Uffish thought!”
-The Caterpillar

Did I? If I did, i didn’t really mean to. But it wouldn’t be the first time my mouth (err, fingers in this case) have said things behind my back :slight_smile:

I guess we really were probably mostly in agreement all along.


peas on earth

bantmof:

Yes, but before I examined your links I was one of the poor victims brainwashed by Bernoulli. Thanks again for explaining that it’s not as simple as the textbooks say.

Christ that ticks me off! I double checked my MS Flight simulator handbook, and it says quite clearly lift is generated by the Bernoulli principle. It makes no mention of the other forces you mention. &%^#$ Microsoft!

Both explanations are right. The confusion is in the definition of “top of the wing”. It should not be measured in the plane of the wing, but rather like this:

http://www.mearaworks.com/lift.gif

(Please forgive my drawing skills)

Not to ever deter someone from cursing Microsoft, but…

You may want to consider where those “other forces” are coming from. Unless we’re living in a Jedi universe, I would posit that the force is coming from the air pushing against the wing (some people call this phenomenon “air pressure”). :slight_smile:

In other words, Bernoulli is right (see diagram above).

Yeah - Like Meara says, they’re both right, in a sense. My personal feeling is that the pressure differential is more an effect than a cause, but it really does depend on how you look at it.

Consider this approach: take a flat surface and shove it through the air perpendicular to its plane. It’s pretty clear that you’re going to get high pressure in front of this surface (the air is piling up in front of it due to its movement), and low pressure behind it, right? I mean, it has to shove some air out of its way as it goes.

Now consider tilting this thing so we’re shoving it through the air at, say, a 80% angle to the normal vector. Clearly there is still high pressure in front and low behind. The low pressure behind (mostly above, now) causes air to be sped up to fill the low pressure region (since the pressure is going to equalize after the thing passes through). So it’s not the air magically speeding up on it’s own - it’s sped up because of the low pressure region.

I tend to like the Newton approach, because I think it goes back to more basic physics - action and reaction, and oh by the way, the thing shoving air downwards is creating a pressure differential. But it’s really not wrong to think about it as the pressure difference holding the plane up, either; they’re just different ways of looking at the same thing. I just always have had an issue with all the textbooks that completely leave out any reference to Newton, as if the plane is somehow magically suspended up there without any reaction mass shoved downwards to balance gravity. I think we’re doing a disservice to our high school students by not explaining that. Then again, I think our entire education system is kinda broken, but that’s another debate entirely :-).


peas on earth

Well bantmof, you’ve sure as heck set me straight on this one. As a young’n, I was terribly interested in all things that fly, from Soyuz to pterodactyls. I remember seeing Bernoulli diagrams when I was very young, and wondering “Why don’t they just increase the angle of attack and force air downwards?” Well, not in so many words, I didn’t know the term “angle of attack” or anything, but the “partial vacuum above the wing” thing did kind of seem odd.

At least I know now why F-8 Crusaders have the variable angle of attack feature in their wing design.

Anyway, I grew to accept the Bernoulli oversimplification over time. Now I will have to unlearn decades of being misinformed.


Hopefully, I can convince you to accept “hopefully” as a disjunct adverb.
Frankly, I would be lying if I said I were confident.
Perhaps this subject is simply too complex for me to explain.
Unfortunately, I would be lucky to explain my way out of a paper bag.

I only half-know what I’d be talking about with regards to airfoils, but I can explain the half-misconception in the school textbooks about how they work… it’s like the reason that the stork was invented when telling kids about where babies come from… the real reason would be too complicated, convoluted, and complex for most people to be able to grasp, or care.


-SPOOFE

Actually, this explains a question which has been fermenting in the back of my mind for a long time. Having looked at the wings of ultralight aircraft, I never noticed a traditional airfoil shape. My old thoughts were:
(a) there was an airfoil shape that I never noticed, or
(b) ultralights (not just hang-gliders, I mean powered lightplanes capable of taking off from ground level) flew on a completely different principle from conventional fixed-wing craft.

My new thoughts are:
© ultralights fly mainly on the angle of attack principle, just like other powered aircraft, and they don’t bother with airfoils since symmetrical wings are easier to make out of kevlar or whatever, or
(d) no, they do use airfoils, they’re just too subtle for Boris to notice.

We’ve gone through this several times on the SDMB, and I’ve had a devil of a time convincing people of this. Bantmotif manages it on his first post. Guess I better go back to communication skills 101.

The best way to correlate the Bernoulli effect with the Newtonian model is to think of the Bernoulli effect as a mechanism to achieve the Newtonian forces required.

The ‘classic’ photos of the Bernoulli effect show a stream of air that returns to its exact position and flow after the wing has passed through it. That should be your first clue that something is wrong. Keeping an aircraft in flight requires that the wing do work. If the air mass is identical before and after, then no work was done on it, and the airplane can’t fly.

Airplanes fly because if they didnt fly they would crash in a firey mass of death and hellish disaster.

This would be REALLY REALLY bad for the Airlaines.

Thus, they fly, and will continue to fly until we figure out some better way of doing things.


“Remember, the world is only just becoming literate” -Aldous Huxley

Of course, we’re all missing the real question here, which is:

Why do Americans spell it ‘Airplane’ when everyone else in the world spells it ‘Aeroplane’?


The Legend Of PigeonMan

  • Shadow of the Pigeon -
    Weirdo of the Night

I disagree. There’s a simple experiment that can demonstrate the pressure differential (I didn’t check the links, so forgive me if they mention it):

  1. Get a piece of card about 10cm square.

  2. Put a hole in the middle just big enough for a drinking straw.

  3. Insert a straw, making the bottom flush with the bottom of the card, and tape it in place perpindicular to the card.

  4. Put a flat piece of paper on a flat surface.

  5. Hold the card with the straw about 1cm over the paper, with the card parallel to the paper.

  6. Blow through the straw.

Even though the air is being blown downward onto the paper, the paper rises because the air is deflected to flow along its surface. The pressure differential is strong enough to counter the initial downward flow and also overcome the suction of the paper on the flat surface.

Yes, you need AOA on wings; and yes, there is downward deflection of air from the bottom of wings. But the greater lifting force is the pressure differential. It doesn’t have to be much of a differential because it’s acting over a large surface area.


“I must leave this planet, if only for an hour.” – Antoine de St. Exupéry

Are you a turtle?

Ahh… I always wanted to do this someday…

Master Cecil: How can stunt planes fly upside down?

Back to your normal programming now…

That, by the way, may imply that Cecil will have to retract part of his explanation…

Sure, but you need to examine why the air is going faster. It’s clear that the Bernoulli effect is real; nobody will deny that. But in your index card example, you increase the speed of the air artificially by blowing over the top of the card, while air on the bottom of the card is still sitting perfectly still. That isn’t what happens with a wing.

The whole wing is moving through the air. The usually offered explanation is that the air that splits on the leading edge of the wing must (for some magic reason) end up together again when it moves off the trailing edge, so since the top surface is longer, the air has to go faster to travel the longer distance in the same time. But this explanation is flat out wrong - wind tunnel tests with pulsed smoke show that the air doesn’t behave that way.

Both the top and bottom surfaces of the wing act to deflect the air downward (the bottom through high pressure, and the top through low pressure), and the airspeed difference can be though of as arising from the pressure differential caused by the wing forcing a mass of air downwards - here’s the interesting bit - even on symmetric cross-section wings, and even on “normal” wings flying upside-down. It’s pretty clear that wings can fly with no camber whatsoever, and a cambered wing cannot fly at a zero degree angle of attack, so camber can’t be the answer all by itself. In reality you see the pressure differential even on flat-plate wings, so the wing’s shape alone can’t be the cause of the Bernoulli effect, as most people tend to think.

See, that’s the big misconception everybody has. It’s not like there are two things at work, the pressure difference and the upwards force from shoving air downward, and these are somehow added together. When people say things like “the pressure difference is the greater lifting force”, they’re succumbing to the poor explanation that most of us were originally taught (myself included). In reality, these are two aspects of the very same thing, and the f=ma of the air accelerated downward by the wing is exactly enough (in level flight) to counterbalance the plane’s weight (as it must be).

You should read the first link I posted in the OP - it’s pretty short and has (IMHO) a very nice explanation of how everything ties together.


peas on earth

Sorry for arriving late to this thread but I was baking some cookies in the oven…

What is amazing is that every manual about sailing perpetuates the same error: a sail works like a an airplane wing on the Bernouilli principle etc…

How can you even say this? Any dummy can see a sail has NO thickness and the whole theory crumbles… and yet it is repeated everywhere.

Yes, deflection is the explanation and a boat’s sail confirms it.

I’m not going to pretend to understand most of this thread - My Physics teacher showed me that demo where you blow above a piece of paper and the darn thing moves upward… told me about Bernoulli… said it something to do with why the shower-curtain blows in at the bottom… I trusted him.

But, from my perspective, just from looking at airplanes…

It is obvious that they fly in direct contradiction with all know laws of physics. They are simply to big and clunky. I mean, they make those things out of steel! Who are they trying to kid?

Obviously the only reason that airplanes fly is because of alien technology (Krispy Original, can you provide some evidence to back me up, please? :smiley: )

My guess is that some federal employees named Frank, Angie and Alice were out on lunchbreak in the deserts of New Mexico when they discovered the wreck of an alien spacecraft. They decided to start their own company (FAA - get it?) and build things that looked (and thus worked) just like this unknown thechnology they discovered.

Equally obvious is the fact that the aliens who built this thing were about 4 feet tall, had 8 inch waists and knees that bent backwards. (That’s why the seats are designed that way.)

My only gripe is that Frank, Angie and Alice didn’t make the aisle wider so I could squeeze past the beverage cart.