Howard Dean Finds Religion, Hallelujah!

[Eve]

From today's NY Times:

STORM LAKE, Iowa, Jan. 3 — Little by little, the Lord is seeping into Howard Dean's presidential campaign. In South Carolina the other day, an invocation preceded the political speeches, and David Mack, a state legislator, closed the rally with "God bless you and keep you." In Iowa last weekend, Dr. Dean referred to the New Testament. On Friday in New Hampshire, he invoked a Muslim phrase, "inshallah," God willing, to make a point about Americans believing they control their destiny.

"I'm still learning a lot about faith and the South and how important it is," Dr. Dean, the former governor of Vermont, said as he flew here, 150 miles northwest of Des Moines, Friday night on his chartered jet, predicting he would mention God more and more in the coming weeks. "It doesn't make me more religious or less religious than I was before, but it means that I'm willing to talk about it in different ways."

Dr. Dean recently told an audience in Iowa that he prayed daily. On the plane he declined to detail his prayer ritual but described how a 2002 trip to Israel deepened his understanding of the connections between Judaism and Christianity. He named Job as his favorite New Testament book, then later corrected himself, noting that it is in the Old Testament. "I'm a New Englander, so I'm not used to wearing religion on my sleeve and being as open about it," he said. "I'm gradually getting more comfortable with talking about religion in ways that I did not talk about it before."

The changes come amid concern from several corners about the stridently secular tone of his campaign so far. In contrast to his Democratic opponents, who frequently discuss their faith in public, not to mention the born-again incumbent, President Bush, Dr. Dean said plainly in an interview a couple of months back: "I don't think that religion ought to be part of American policy." A cover story in The New Republic last month, headlined "Howard Dean's religion problem," called him "one of the most secular candidates to run for president in modern history," and suggested this would "mark him as culturally alien to much of the country." A rash of columns followed with similar warnings, and voters have begun to inquire about the issue at town hall meetings.

--So, what about it? Is Dean a genuinely religious man who is just now speaking up, or a canny pol who realizes there is no way a secular candidate could be elected in this religion-obsessed country?

Would it be the better part of valour for an athiest or agnostic (I have no idea if Dean is either) to be honest, or to "play the game" and God it up, as Dean is doing?

[John Mace]

Is Dean a genuinely religious man who is just now speaking up, or a canny pol who realizes there is no way a secular candidate could be elected in this religion-obsessed country?

The latter-- and you don't have to be too canny to realize that. I actually think this is the rare GD OP that actually belongs in GQ.

[RickJay]

It would appear Dean is pandering to the religious set. Evidently he is less courageous than I originally believed.

[Marley23]

I think the pandering is probably necessary to some extent. Heck, everyone else does it, so it'd look bad if he didn't. But I think he's still making himself look bad because the pandering is so obvious and out of character.

[pantom]

Well, the only thing I look for is a politician who's willing to agree with me on the issues.
The idea that any of them would have any real courage is just wacky. Courageous politician is as complete an oxymoron as military intelligence.
Still, one doesn't want to just come out and say during the campaign, "I have balls the size of marbles." Dean needs some advice somewhere through here.

[Polycarp]

From what I've been able to establish, Howard Dean and his wife are members of the United Church of Christ (Congregationalists) and have been for years. He attended regularly but not weekly -- "about once a month" was the information I got -- and the tenets of the church are in no way contrary to what he's expressed as his public views.

I'm inclined to believe that he's telling the truth, and that his greater outspokenness about his faith as he brings his campaign nationwide is politically motivated -- because he realizes that people are more outspoken about their beliefs in the South and Midwest than in New England -- but that he is doing nothing more than being more open about what he's felt all along, not "getting religion" for political reasons.

[London_Calling]

Has he been granted a private audience with Jerry Falwell yet ? I guess not, hence the policy change.

[Jackmannii]

Originally posted by Eve
On Friday in New Hampshire, he invoked a Muslim phrase, "inshallah," God willing, to make a point about Americans believing they control their destiny.

Not sure how this squares with his being a "canny pol".

[ElvisL1ves]

There's a surprisingly large Arab population in NH with some election wins to their credit, is how. John Sununu Sr. and Jr. and Jeanne Shaheen (well, by marriage) are the most notable. Shaheen is on Kerry's campaign, btw.

[Spoke]

He's found religion!

Now if he could only find the book of Job...

Asked his favorite New Testament book, Dr. Dean named Job...

...An hour after his comments, Dr. Dean returned to the clutch of reporters, saying he realized he had misspoken because Job is not in the New Testament.

Serves him right for pandering, sez I. Back to Sunday School for Mr. Dean.

[pantom]

He didn't even know if it was in the Old or the New? Oh man. I need to get them to hire me as Chief Stopper of Stupid Gaffes. This is too dumb.

[Larry Borgia]

Wow, I'm amazed how many Dopers are telepathic! James Randi's gonna be short a million soon.

Seriously unless you know Dean personally, I dont see how you can possibly judge the sincerity of his religious beliefs. (Though I understand how the timing could raise some suspicions)

[Evil Captor]

As an atheist, I could give a flying fuck where the book of Job is, but I don't think it's fair to fault Dean for not knowing even if you're religious. Back in my churchgoing days, there were a lot of us who didn't know a lot of Bible lore. You don't have to be a Ned Flanders to be religious ... do you?

[Eve]

Originally posted by Larry Borgia
Wow, I'm amazed how many Dopers are telepathic! James Randi's gonna be short a million soon.

Seriously unless you know Dean personally, I dont see how you can possibly judge the sincerity of his religious beliefs. (Though I understand how the timing could raise some suspicions)

Ummm, we're not "judging" them, or even stating whether or not he is religious. Did you even read any of the posts? We are discussing the timing of his religious statements, and whether a secular candidate could ever win an election.

[Ukulele Ike]

Originally posted by Evil Captor
As an atheist, I could give a flying fuck where the book of Job is, but I don't think it's fair to fault Dean for not knowing even if you're religious.

As an atheist, I STILL know the friggin' Bible. I don't fault Dean for his "lack of faith," but rather for literary ignorance....it's as if he placed the Thane of Cawdor in Hamlet or something.

Could a secular cadidate win a Presidential election? Damn, it's hard to say. Going back as far as Ronnie and Jimmy, we've got "Born Agains."

Ford doesn't count.

Tricky Dick made Henry (Jewish) Kissinger get down on his knees alongside him and pray to Jesus.

What the hell did LBJ believe in?

Kennedy was famous for being a Catholic.

Eisenhower, Truman, FDR....I have no idea, but I can't picture any of them passing the collection plate.

[pantom]

Evil Captor: I'm not particularly religious either, to put it mildly, but knowing where the Book of Job is is kind of like being able to hit the blind side of a barn from 5 feet away with a rock.
Ah well, at least he knew it was in The Bible. I just hope no one decides to ask him if The Sermon on The Mount is in Job or not.

[London_Calling]

He gave a sermon on a horse ?


Anyways, way back when, the religious right wasn't organised by Rev. Hoffa with teevee stations and 10 of millions hanging on every pole-iti-sizhed wurd.

It's a modern phem, phen, pheomon, development.

[manhattan]

Originally posted by Ukulele Ike
As an atheist, I STILL know the friggin' Bible. I don't fault Dean for his "lack of faith," but rather for literary ignorance....it's as if he placed the Thane of Cawdor in Hamlet or something.

Eh. Someone said "New Testament" and he mentallly heard "Bible." As gaffes go, not much of one IMO.

This is gonna be a fun election season, though. I can't wait for the Bush bashers to start trumpeting the merits of an over-credentialed, undersmart, Jesus-loving opponent of gay marriage and supporter of faith-based federal grants to charities, who has no foreign policy experience and a secrecy fetish. "Look -- he's just like Bush, except that he "supposes" that it's a good thing Hussein is out of power and he wants to increase your taxes! Vote for him!"

[Sam Stone]

Lots of politicians have made 11th hour 'conversions' to avoid upsetting the public. Does anyone really think Bill Clinton is particularly religious?

Still, Dean has been pretty ham-fisted in the way he's dealt with this.

[amarinth]

Originally posted by Polycarp
From what I've been able to establish, Howard Dean and his wife are members of the United Church of Christ (Congregationalists) and have been for years. He attended regularly but not weekly -- "about once a month" was the information I got -- and the tenets of the church are in no way contrary to what he's expressed as his public views.

From what I've read, while he's a Congregationalist, his wife and children are Jewish.

[John Mace]

Originally posted by amarinth
From what I've read, while he's a Congregationalist, his wife and children are Jewish.

That is correct.

I'm an atheist and would prefer an atheist candidate. But that's not the debate here. The debate is:

1. Is Dean actually religious? Clearly not. The BS about New Englanders being more private about their religion is just that: BS. I grew up in Boston, and one of the first things someone there will ask you is what religion you are (if they don't know). Absolute BS, but yes, all politicians do it. Ronnie was not religious (contrary to whoever above said he was "born again"), but he did a good job convincing people that he was.

2. Can a secular person win the presidency? Probably not. Maybe someone who is silent about religion, but not someone who says even one bad word about it. Dean will have a tiny problem (among many hard core Christians) because his wife is Jewish, but a much bigger problem because his kids were raised Jewish. It's a rare serious Christian who would allow his kids to be raised Jewish. That's more the actions of someone who says to his wife: "Hey, I don't give a shit about religion. If you want to raise the kids Jewish, go ahead."

[Fear Itself]

Originally posted by John Mace
The latter-- and you don't have to be too canny to realize that. I actually think this is the rare GD OP that actually belongs in GQ.

I agree, it is on par with George Bush gushing about how Jesus is his most admired person, yet he is unwilling to turn his other cheek, nor give away his cloak.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by John Mace
2. Can a secular person win the presidency? Probably not. Maybe someone who is silent about religion, but not someone who says even one bad word about it.

I'd like to see them all be silent about religion. I believe in G-d, but don't see why it matters if the president does. Morals and values are important, religion is not.

[Eonwe]

As someone who has lived in VT under Dean for many years I can say that I cannot ever remember him mentioning his religion or faith in more than passing ever. Whether this is because he didn't/doesn't have any or because it just didn't play a part (or he didn't want it to) in his state politics I cannot say, though if polycarp's info is correct then I'd be apt to believe he's not making this up.

Despite what John Mace feels about New Englanders in general, I can tell you that I don't have any clue what faith any of my elected officials are (though I imagine most of them are some flavor of Christian), and very very few of them make much a deal about it. So, at least in contemporary VT politics, religion takes a major back burner.

So, I guess I'd believe that he is understanding that he needs to bring his faith to the fore in order to impress certain constituancies. I am kind of bummed about this; the less I see Dean play the game the happier I am.

[elucidator]

Get over it.

This next election is going to be one butt-ugly mo-fo, and don't you doubt it for a second. If the polls show that GeeDubya will cruise to a 80%-20% massacree on voting day, then the Forces of Darkness will be quite content to play like gentlemen, murmuring genteel debate while sipping tea, pinkies akimbo.

But if there is any chance of a close election, the gloves come off and the shivs come out. The "Willie Horton" episode will seem like a fraternity prank, stealing the other teams mascot.

I wonder if Mr. Dean will have the option of having the Secret Service enforce "free speech" zones for him? In the interests of national security, of course.

Somehow I rather doubt it.

[Eonwe]

Maybe I'm still young and idealistic, but I'd like to imagine that a completely honest, straightforward, and frank candidate could give Bush a run for his money, or at least leave a big footprint on politics of the future (whether or not that candidate is Dean, I don't know).

[Michael Ellis]

Originally posted by Ukulele Ike
it's as if he placed the Thane of Cawdor in Hamlet or something.

Yeah. Everyone knows it's from Beowulf.

[John Mace]

Despite what John Mace feels about New Englanders in general, I can tell you that I don't have any clue what faith any of my elected officials are (though I imagine most of them are some flavor of Christian), and very very few of them make much a deal about it. So, at least in contemporary VT politics, religion takes a major back burner.

What with the plethora of religions one finds in VT, I'm sure it's a tough call to guess that they're Christian, as you actually pointed out yourself. Maybe Protestant VT is a bit different from Catholic Boston. Heck, you folks elected a godless socialist to Congress.

I don't doubt that religion plays a bigger role in the South, generally speaking, than in N.E. But Dean's comment says more about his personal social circle, though, than it does about N.E. as a whole.

I actually find a lot to like in Dean's candidacy. He makes a more compelling case to me than most of the other Dems. I don't mind his "gaffs" such as this one, but just wish he'd own up to his beliefs. I'd have more resepct for him if didn't seem so eager to pander. I watched the Dem debate today in large part to get a picture of where he stands on things and was quite disappointed in the way he backpeddled about religion, ObL, and other topics.

Still, he's got a lot more going for him than Kerry, Gephardt and Edwards.

[Lissa]

Originally posted by Jackmannii
Not sure how this squares with his being a "canny pol" [using the phrase "inshalla"].

I think I do. It may be designed to show religious tolerance, something that's generally supported by his target demographic.

Dean knows that the hard-core Christian vote is already firmly Bush's: he doesn't need to worry about offending them, because he hasn't a chance in hell of drawing them to his side, anyway.

[Eve]

Originally posted by Eonwe
Maybe I'm still young and idealistic, but I'd like to imagine that a completely honest, straightforward, and frank candidate could give Bush a run for his money, or at least leave a big footprint on politics of the future (whether or not that candidate is Dean, I don't know).

AH-hahahahahaha . . . Oh, that's so cute. I really must have you bronzed for my mantelpiece.

[Shodan]

Originally posted by Fear Itself
I agree, it is on par with George Bush gushing about how Jesus is his most admired person, yet he is unwilling to turn his other cheek, nor give away his cloak.

Good thing we can judge one candidate as a hypocrite based on his statements about religion, but not the other.

Now if Dean had misspelled "potato", now THERE'S a significant story!

Regards,
Shodan

[ElvisL1ves]

Ah, the RW ahte-machine's effort to portray Dr. Dean as either stupid or ignorant has begun, I see. Ever occur to any of you that it just might backfire out of sheer implausibility, just like so many other of its/your personal-destruction efforts in recent years?

If you can't win on the issues, you don't deserve to.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by John Mace
I actually find a lot to like in Dean's candidacy. He makes a more compelling case to me than most of the other Dems. I don't mind his "gaffs" such as this one, but just wish he'd own up to his beliefs. I'd have more resepct for him if didn't seem so eager to pander. I watched the Dem debate today in large part to get a picture of where he stands on things and was quite disappointed in the way he backpeddled about religion, ObL, and other topics.

Let's see, we have no way to discern what Dean's belief's really are and he's telling people what he thinks they want to hear. Not very compelling to me, unless the other Dems. are worse! I admit I don't know enough yet to make any decision beyond not voting for Bush, but I keep hoping there'll be a better reason to vote than to try and keep someone out of office.

[Shodan]

Originally posted by ElvisL1ves
Ah, the RW ahte-machine's effort to portray Dr. Dean as either stupid or ignorant has begun, I see. Ever occur to any of you that it just might backfire out of sheer implausibility, just like so many other of its/your personal-destruction efforts in recent years?

If you can't win on the issues, you don't deserve to.

The trouble being, when we do win, you assume that it wasn't based on the issues. Getting all upset when perfectly legitimate questions are asked about a candidate doesn't seem so implausible to me.

For instance, Dean seems to be trying rather hard to say that Bush is on the wrong track with regards to national security. Dean has said, for instance, that he doesn't feel any safer just because Iraq's dictator has been captured, and that the country should be taking other steps to ensure our security against terror attacks.

And yet, for the last decade or so, Dean has ignored repeated warnings that the nuclear facilities in Vermont are vulnerable to terrorist attack.

During Dean’s final year in office in 2002, an audit concluded that despite a decade of repeated warnings of poor safety at Vermont Yankee, Dean’s administration was poorly prepared for a nuclear disaster...Vermont laws required an active state role by creating a panel to review security and performance and requiring plant operators to set aside money for the state to use in the event of a nuclear disaster.

The Nuclear Regulatory Agency ranked the Yankee Reactor in Vermont dead last in the nation.

Apparently those Saudis who Dean speculates tipped off Bush in advance of 9/11 didn't give Dean the same heads-up - he did essentially nothing during the 90s, even after a mock raid on the plant got several simulated terrorists inside the reactor building.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

Dean not only believes this - he seems to have based his entire foreign policy on it.

Regards,
Shodan

[Fear Itself]

Originally posted by Shodan
Good thing we can judge one candidate as a hypocrite based on his statements about religion, but not the other.

I don't know what you mean by this. My statement was pretty clear that I condemn hypocracy in both parties; do you? I do find Bush's unctuous variety of Christianity more offensive than Dean's holy-come-lately conversion, but both are worthy of criticism.

[Fear Itself]

hypocrisy

[John Mace]

Originally posted by IWLN
Let's see, we have no way to discern what Dean's belief's really are and he's telling people what he thinks they want to hear. Not very compelling to me, unless the other Dems. are worse!

(My bolding.) If you had read the sentence directly after the part of my post that you quoted, you'd see that's exactly what I said. Here it is:

Still, he's got a lot more going for him than Kerry, Gephardt and Edwards.

IWLN wrote:
I admit I don't know enough yet to make any decision beyond not voting for Bush, but I keep hoping there'll be a better reason to vote than to try and keep someone out of office.

Sadly, that is more often the case than not. I can think of plenty of Republicans I'd rather see in the W.H. over Bush.

[ElvisL1ves]

Originally posted by Shodan
For instance, Dean seems to be trying rather hard to say that Bush is on the wrong track with regards to national security.

A mainstream position.

Dean has said, for instance, that he doesn't feel any safer just because Iraq's dictator has been captured, and that the country should be taking other steps to ensure our security against terror attacks.

Also a mainstream position. Ridge raised the color code just a few days after Saddam's capture, and there it stays.

And yet, for the last decade or so, Dean has ignored repeated warnings that the nuclear facilities in Vermont are vulnerable to terrorist attack.

Don't you get dizzy from all that spin? Who was really doing what during that time frame?

Good Burke quote, noting as it does the current triumph of evil facilitated by inadequate efforts by the good. But the silly, simplistic manichaeanism is your own.

To repeat, if you can't win on the issues, you don't deserve to.

[elucidator]

Hoover, for instance. Rather have Hoover. Yes, I know he's dead. Rather a point in his favor, under the circumstances.

[Revtim]

Here's my fantasy:

A political candidate is asked about his/her religious views, and answers "My religious views are my business. Since we have a seperation of church and state, they are inconsequential to anybody but myself. Ask me about issues, and I will gladly tell you my views on them."

I have another one involving Nicole Kidman and various lubricants, but that's beside the issue. But probably about as likely to be realized.

[Eve]

Originally posted by Revtim
Here's my fantasy:

A political candidate is asked about his/her religious views, and answers "My religious views are my business. Since we have a seperation of church and state, they are inconsequential to anybody but myself. Ask me about issues, and I will gladly tell you my views on them."

That's almost exactly what Dean had been saying up until a week or so ago, when his handlers and the press started telling him, "Ummm, you're never going to get elected if you don't start Godding it up, bucko."

Dean's stand on Nicole Kidman and lubricants has not yet made the radar.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by John Mace
If you had read the sentence directly after the part of my post that you quoted, you'd see that's exactly what I said.

I read it. That was a case of "damning with faint praise." But that, to me, is the equivalent of saying "good thing that rapist isn't a murderer".

Sadly, that is more often the case than not. I can think of plenty of Republicans I'd rather see in the W.H. over Bush.

That's not what I want to hear. I was hoping someone could convince me of some sort of positive outcome to this.

[elucidator]

To be fair, Dean hasn't had as many opportunities to express his Christian faith in deeds. For instance, in the matter of executions.

Our Leader is ever mindful of the Gospel. He notes the admonition from The Boss that he who is without sin shall cast the first stone. But a moments reflection and he realizes that death by stoning is not an option in Texas, so the issue is moot. As well, he is mindful that human judgement is not perfect and true justice can only be achieved if the accused is passed to the jurisdiction of a Higher Court. Often, we are told, GeeDubya would agonize over signing a death warrant for as long as half an hour. One is moved to weep over the burden of his sacrifice.

Further, he is mindful of Jesus' one major failure, and that is His unseemly prejudice against the financially overendowed, and His dire warnings about camels not passing through a needle's eye, etc. GeeDubya's tender heart is rent with compassion, he is more than ever determined that the travail of the wealthy should be lightened, that while they might dread the life to come, thier life here should be as free from vexation, legislation and taxation as humanly possible. This is Christianity in action, not mere mouthing of platitudes about compassion, forgiveness, and other questionable lefty slogans.

By these actions, GeeDubya shows that he is entirely in agreement with Jesus' firm guidelines.

[John Mace]

Revtim wrote:
A political candidate is asked about his/her religious views, and answers "My religious views are my business. Since we have a seperation of church and state, they are inconsequential to anybody but myself. Ask me about issues, and I will gladly tell you my views on them."

And then the next question would be "Where do you stand on having 'under God' in the pledge?" Unfortunately, there's just no escaping the religion trap if you want to run for prez.

Originally posted by IWLN
I read it. That was a case of "damning with faint praise." But that, to me, is the equivalent of saying "good thing that rapist isn't a murderer".

Nope. It's the equivalent of saying "good thing the fibber isn't a rapist or a murderer." Let's keep this in perspective.

[elucidator]

To be fair, Dean hasn't had as many opportunities to express his Christian faith in deeds. For instance, in the matter of executions.

Our Leader is ever mindful of the Gospel. He notes the admonition from The Boss that he who is without sin shall cast the first stone. But a moments reflection and he realizes that death by stoning is not an option in Texas, so the issue is moot. As well, he is mindful that human judgement is not perfect and true justice can only be achieved if the accused is passed to the jurisdiction of a Higher Court. Often, we are told, GeeDubya would agonize over signing a death warrant for as long as half an hour. One is moved to weep over the burden of his sacrifice.

Further, he is mindful of Jesus' one major failure, and that is His unseemly prejudice against the financially overendowed, and His dire warnings about camels not passing through a needle's eye, etc. GeeDubya's tender heart is rent with compassion, he is more than ever determined that the travail of the wealthy should be lightened, that while they might dread the life to come, thier life here should be as free from vexation, legislation and taxation as humanly possible. This is Christianity in action, not mere mouthing of platitudes about compassion, forgiveness, and other questionable lefty slogans.

By these actions, GeeDubya shows that he is entirely in agreement with Jesus' firm guidelines.

[Shodan]

Don't you get dizzy from all that spin? Who was really doing what during that time frame?

Dean was doing essentially nothing during that time frame. Which was my point. Sorry you missed it.

To repeat, if you can't win on the issues, you don't deserve to.

And to paraphrase, if you can't debate the issues, you don't deserve to win. Which you won't, because with an Bush approval rating hovering around the 60% range, and a margin over Dean of almost two to one, it would seem that your positions are not as mainstream as you would like to assert.

To sum up, Dean has a weak record on national security. Bush has a very strong one. Bush supporters have a record of success in Afghanistan, North Korea, Libya, Iraq, and Iran to point to. Dean supporters do not seem to be able to defend their boy's positions or record, except to complain weakly that discussions about Dean's record on security issues are avoiding the issues.

I understand completely your intense desire to divert attention from Dean's failures back to attacks on Bush. Unfortunately for your side, so does much of the American electorate.

Regards,
Shodan

[PatriotX]

Originally posted by Shodan

Apparently those Saudis who Dean speculates tipped off Bush in advance of 9/11...

Wow! He's a conspiracist?
I did not know that. I'd only read this quote of his on Newsmax. Obivously it doesn't indicate what you've indicated, though. Could you let me know how to find out more about his pet conspiracy theories?

a caller asked Dean why he thought President Bush didn't want to turn over his top secret daily briefing summary from the CIA to the independent commission investigating the 9/11 attacks.

Dean responded, "The most interesting theory that I've heard so far – which is nothing more than a theory, it can't be proved – is that he was warned ahead of time by the Saudis."

The top Democrat continued: "Now, who knows what the real situation is? But the trouble is, by suppressing that kind of information, you lead to those kinds of theories, whether they have any truth to them or not."

[John Mace]

'luci wrote:
To be fair, Dean hasn't had as many opportunities to express his Christian faith in deeds. For instance, in the matter of executions.

Well, he's now on record as saying he thinks ObL should get the death penalty. If you watched yesterday's debate, you would have heard him say so. Has he always been pro-death penalty, or is this part of his new religion? I don't have the debate transcripts, but he's also on record from December in this Chicago Sun Times article:

''As a president, I would have to defend the process of the rule of law. But as an American, I want to make sure he gets the death penalty he deserves,'' Dean said.

SimonX wrote:
Dean responded, "The most interesting theory that I've heard so far – which is nothing more than a theory, it can't be proved – is that he was warned ahead of time by the Saudis."

Yeah, this is the worst kind of weasling. Say that something is a rumor so you can get away with using it against your opponent, but can still deny that you actually believe it. Note that he said "it can't be proved" and not "I emphatically don't believe it".

[PatriotX]

Originally posted by Shodan
Which you won't, because with an Bush approval rating hovering around the 60% range, and a margin over Dean of almost two to one, it would seem that your positions are not as mainstream as you would like to assert.

This seems to be an overreaching extrapolation from the approval ratings.

Here's a link to PIPA where there's a survey that discusses these sorts of things in more detail tha merely approval ratings:
http://www.pipa.org/

look under Americans Reevaluate Going to War with Iraq

[ElvisL1ves]

Shodan, are you trying to fill in the gap left here by december? The point, which you missed, is that Dean was doing as much as anyone outside Washington about terrorism during his tenure. But you're singling him out because, well, we know why, don't we?

"Bush approval rating hovering around the 60% range" is offered by you as proof that no more than 40% of the people could disagree with Bush about anything. Rich.

"Dean has a weak record on national security." At least as good as your boy had when he took over, with the added advantage of ability and interest in learning about it.

"a record of success in Afghanistan, North Korea, Libya, Iraq, and Iran to point to. " Snort. Richer yet. Afghanistan is a short-term proposition at best, Libya and Iran have had no real attention from Bush at all, Iraq and North Korea are abject failures everywhere outside Shodanistan. The reality the rest of us live in will decide the election, unfortunately for you.