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  #51  
Old 01-10-2004, 12:47 PM
kniz kniz is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Walloon
Cite?
The following quotes come from here.
Quote:
The Suspects

Napoleon's troops shot the nose off the Sphinx in 1798:

* for fun
* because they were racist hooligans
* both of the above

British troops shot the nose off the Sphinx during:

* World War I
* World War II

German troops shot the nose off the Sphinx during World War II.

The Mamelukes shot the nose off the Sphinx.

Arab conquerors knocked the nose off the Sphinx in 693.

An Islamic cleric, Sa'im al-dahr, had the nose knocked off the Sphinx in 1378.
Quote:
The Verdicts

NOT GUILTY: Napoleon's troops. The Sphinx was well known to Europe and no contemporary account describes the Sphinx having a nose before Napoleon arrived and being in a noseless condition after his departure. Napoleon was not popular with Britain and they certainly would have made propaganda hay of it had it occurred during Napoleon's stay.

NOT GUILTY: British troops have an alibi.

NOT GUILTY: German troops have an alibi.

UNKNOWN: the Mamelukes

UNKNOWN: Arab conquerors

UNKNOWN: Islamic cleric, Sa'im al-dahr

Both Arab conquerors and Sa'im al-dahr are described in contemporary accounts as doing violence to the Sphinx. In Sa'im al-dahr's case, the nose is specifically mentioned. It is difficult to judge the state of the nose before and after their actions (assuming the accounts are true.)

Please note that my statement falls within the unknown category.
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  #52  
Old 01-11-2004, 04:10 PM
t-keela t-keela is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Walloon
Since this thread is about separately fact from fiction, I will ask: cite?
And what facts are those...the story about Napolean or the one about the Muslims or the one about black people believing the OP?

We don't have many facts regarding the Sphinx at all. Not even for sure who built it or when. Or even when it was last seen with a nose at all. The fact that the beard was found in fair condition amazed me. The nose probably laid on the ground for years and was destroyed AFTER it fell off. By the numerous means related by people over the years. That would explain why it wasn't intact when the beard was found.

As far as the Sphinx origins as a lion, the pre-Egyptians supposedly made the Lion during the "age of Leo" and is seated facing the Zodiac he represents. Hey, I don't know anymore than y'all do. But it makes more sense to me than some damned half-man, half-lion winged creature. Unless you're into that ET thing.

Try the link I attached before. I think it gives some of the info. I was relating to. If not, just make a quick search and you should get thousands of hits. Meanwhile, I'll be back in a bit with something for ya.

The OP was in relation to why some black folks believe Napolean shot the nose off of the Sphinx?

ans. because the Sphinx supposedly had a "black" nose...correct.


sorry 'bout the hijack A/S
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  #53  
Old 01-11-2004, 06:24 PM
t-keela t-keela is offline
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Here you go. WalloonThis cite looks to be pretty good. Had to wade through a few pseudo-sites, folks are always messing up a good theory with the ET, Atlantis, etc. stuff.

I don't know the TRUTH but the science makes sense. I wasn't trying to be smartass before. I just assume too much sometimes. Perhaps not everyone is familiar with this theory.
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  #54  
Old 01-11-2004, 07:42 PM
HPL HPL is offline
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It's already been mentioned, but the fact that it's a fairly old piece of artwork that's been sitting in a desert for at least 4000 years with little maintence probably has a lot to do with it.
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  #55  
Old 01-11-2004, 09:30 PM
Tapioca Dextrin Tapioca Dextrin is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by t-keela
I was under the impression that the Sphinx was even older than the Egyptian Civilization which eventually grew around it.
No one knows when the Sphinx was made. Most science types believe that it was built around 2500 BC, but there is a school of thought that it's up to 10,000 years old. I've never seen the Sphinx up close, but as a professional geologist, the weathering patterns on the body scream out old. And the head doesn't. My opinion is that the Sphinx is just an old lump of rock which a passing sculptor thought to himself "that weathered lump of rock looks a bit like a Sphinx. I'll just carve the top lump to look like the current pharoh and I'll be famous".

This site has more on Sphinx erosion.
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  #56  
Old 01-11-2004, 09:54 PM
Walloon Walloon is offline
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t-keela, that side you linked to has no provenance — no author named. This is an authoritative site?
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  #57  
Old 01-12-2004, 02:47 AM
Shirley Ujest Shirley Ujest is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by owlstretchingtime
The Sphynx's beard is in a store room in the British Museum. This is not a myth. I've personally seen it.
The Sphynx is gay?







Where is Weekly World News for these late breaking stories when you need 'em?
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  #58  
Old 01-12-2004, 03:25 AM
owlstretchingtime owlstretchingtime is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by t-keela
http://www.glasssteelandstone.com/EG/GreatSphinx.html
Re the Sphynx's Beard - I have seen it (it lives in a store room) and to be honest you do rather have to take their word for it - it could just be lump of rock, it certainly isn't anything special to look at.

(and before someone blames someone else for knocking it off - it fell off)
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  #59  
Old 01-12-2004, 06:38 AM
Diceman Diceman is offline
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It lives there, eh?

Can I send it fan mail? Does it have to pay rent every month?
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  #60  
Old 01-12-2004, 06:54 AM
owlstretchingtime owlstretchingtime is offline
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you want beards? Bob's yer uncle:

http://www.egyptarchive.co.uk/html/b...museum_16.html

for all you beard needs.
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  #61  
Old 01-12-2004, 09:15 AM
t-keela t-keela is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Walloon
t-keela, that side you linked to has no provenance — no author named. This is an authoritative site?
I didn't check the sources on this particular cite. I posted it because it was one of the first that I came across that explained what I had mentioned earlier. That, "I was under the impression..."
To be honest with you, I had learned about the evidence (the geological research) several years ago. Other aspects of the theory I came up over the years in my own quest for answers.
In more recent years the idea of an earlier civilization has been put forth by the scientific community and accepted by many as likely in fact.

As far as cites go, I can't give you a specific source for where I got this information. I studied it in college. I read it in the news. I saw it on TV. etc. etc. there are many legitimate cites and even more that are not.

Sometimes a person has to do the work when searching for answers. The Sphinx is carved out of the native limestone. There is no way to "date" the rock through typical methods such as when it was quarried or other similar structures. There are no written references to its origin.

There IS however, severe erosion to the body that can be measured. The weathering shows that water (from rainfall), not flooding or wind blown sand was the key factor in this erosion. There are also several ideas about how the erosion could be so severe in a relatively short time without water being the culprit.

So far, none are really acceptable. Occam's razor suggests to me therefore, the Sphinx existed when Egypt was NOT a desert and had a wetter climate. Minimal figures on this date are from 7500-10,000 years ago. At least 5000BCE Egypt's region started becoming increasingly more arid.

In addition, for much of the known history of the Sphinx, it was buried for the most part. This should have protected it from wind/sand erosion, it typically does everything else that is found buried.

Anyway, I could go on... BUT I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.

AND as far as a pre-Egyptian society. There's plenty of evidence in that regard as well. I'm not suggesting a technologically advanced or superior society, no Atlanteans or ET's or similar tripe. I am merely referring to the people that were the Egyptians ancestors. The predecessors of the Great Empire that followed. Is it so hard to believe they (the Egyptians) had ancestors, if not then where in Hell do people think they came from.

OR is it impossible to believe that they could carve a lion out of limestone. If the Egyptians were truly responsible they would have left evidence.

Sorry to leave it hanging like this but I gotta go. Start a thread. I'll get back w/ya...don't even have time to edit/proof. bye
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  #62  
Old 11-11-2012, 03:07 PM
Iknowmorethanyou Iknowmorethanyou is offline
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Make sense please...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walloon View Post
There seems to be a determined effort in Afrocentric circles to present Ancient Egyptians as negroid. Cleopatra, descended from a long line of Macedonians in the wake of Alexander the Great, is particularly misappropriated for this task. You can see from the occasional representation of negroid Africans ("Nubians") in Egyptian art that Egyptians saw themselves in distinct contrast to them.
#1. Ancient Egyptian civilization did not begin with Cleopatra or her Macedonian ancestors, and as it is now asserted by modern scholarship that she did in fact have African ancestry as well, it is with those African ancestors that Ancient Egyptian civilization began. #2. There are far too many bas reliefs showing Nubians and Ancient Egyptians to be identical in physiognomy and phenotype, and why not? There differences were political and territorial, not racial. All white people are not the same complexion. A blonde haired blue eyed Scandinavian will not resemble an italian from Venice. Therefore why should be expected that all black people be the exact same color. The idea is complete idiocy.
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  #63  
Old 11-11-2012, 03:12 PM
Iknowmorethanyou Iknowmorethanyou is offline
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The Sphinx's Black Nose

Quote:
Originally Posted by t-keela View Post
And what facts are those...the story about Napolean or the one about the Muslims or the one about black people believing the OP?

We don't have many facts regarding the Sphinx at all. Not even for sure who built it or when. Or even when it was last seen with a nose at all. The fact that the beard was found in fair condition amazed me. The nose probably laid on the ground for years and was destroyed AFTER it fell off. By the numerous means related by people over the years. That would explain why it wasn't intact when the beard was found.

As far as the Sphinx origins as a lion, the pre-Egyptians supposedly made the Lion during the "age of Leo" and is seated facing the Zodiac he represents. Hey, I don't know anymore than y'all do. But it makes more sense to me than some damned half-man, half-lion winged creature. Unless you're into that ET thing.

Try the link I attached before. I think it gives some of the info. I was relating to. If not, just make a quick search and you should get thousands of hits. Meanwhile, I'll be back in a bit with something for ya.

The OP was in relation to why some black folks believe Napolean shot the nose off of the Sphinx?

ans. because the Sphinx supposedly had a "black" nose...correct.


sorry 'bout the hijack A/S


"We stop before a Sphinx; it fixes us with a terrifying stare. Its eyes still seem full of life; the left side is stained white by bird-droppings (the tip of the Pyramid of Khephren has the same long white stains); it exactly faces the rising sun, its head is grey, ears very large and protruding L.I.K.E. A. N.E.G.R.O.'S.,
its neck is eroded; from the front it is seen in its entirety thanks to great hollow dug in the sand; the fact that the nose is missing increases the F.L.A.T. N.E.G.R.O.I.D. effect. Besides, IT WAS C.E.R.T.A.I.N.L.Y. E.T.H.I.O.P.I.A.N.; T.H.E. L.I.P.S. A.R.E. T.H.I.C.K..."


French author Gustave Flaubert

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx_of_Giza
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  #64  
Old 11-11-2012, 03:13 PM
Iknowmorethanyou Iknowmorethanyou is offline
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"the Sphinx has a distinctive "A.F.R.I.C.A.N.," "N.U.B.I.A.N.," or "N.E.G.R.O.I.D." aspect"


THE GREAT SPHINX CONTROVERSY
by Dr. Robert M. Schoch Boston University © 1995
[A modified version of this manuscript was published in the "Fortean Times"
(P.O. Box 2409, London NW5 4NP) No. 79, February‑March, 1995, pp. 34‑39.]

http://www.robertschoch.net/Great%20...ontroversy.htm
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  #65  
Old 11-11-2012, 03:14 PM
Iknowmorethanyou Iknowmorethanyou is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t-keela View Post
And what facts are those...the story about Napolean or the one about the Muslims or the one about black people believing the OP?

We don't have many facts regarding the Sphinx at all. Not even for sure who built it or when. Or even when it was last seen with a nose at all. The fact that the beard was found in fair condition amazed me. The nose probably laid on the ground for years and was destroyed AFTER it fell off. By the numerous means related by people over the years. That would explain why it wasn't intact when the beard was found.

As far as the Sphinx origins as a lion, the pre-Egyptians supposedly made the Lion during the "age of Leo" and is seated facing the Zodiac he represents. Hey, I don't know anymore than y'all do. But it makes more sense to me than some damned half-man, half-lion winged creature. Unless you're into that ET thing.

Try the link I attached before. I think it gives some of the info. I was relating to. If not, just make a quick search and you should get thousands of hits. Meanwhile, I'll be back in a bit with something for ya.

The OP was in relation to why some black folks believe Napolean shot the nose off of the Sphinx?

ans. because the Sphinx supposedly had a "black" nose...correct.


sorry 'bout the hijack A/S
"...Though its proportions are colossal, the outline is pure and graceful; the expression of the head is mild, gracious, and tranquil; THE CHARACTER IS AFRICAN, but the mouth, and lips OF WHICH ARE T.H.I.C.K., has a softness and delicacy of execution truly admirable; it seems real life and flesh."

Vivant Denon etched the image of the Sphinx of Giza around 1798, prior to its defacement. This written account is from the 1803 issue of Universal Magazine; in Denon's own words.
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  #66  
Old 11-11-2012, 03:15 PM
Trinopus Trinopus is offline
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Z.o.m.b.i.e.

ETA: How wonderfully odd. The system converted my all-caps ZOMBIE to an upper-and-lower-case Zombie.

Okay, seriously, did Flaubert speak in period.punctuated.words?

Last edited by Trinopus; 11-11-2012 at 03:16 PM..
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  #67  
Old 11-11-2012, 04:13 PM
Ponderoid Ponderoid is offline
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Originally Posted by Trinopus View Post

Okay, seriously, did Flaubert speak in period.punctuated.words?
Looks like an attempt to keep search engines from indexing the posts with those keywords.
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  #68  
Old 11-11-2012, 04:25 PM
bobot bobot is offline
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Hey, I want in on some of that 2004 action! (Now that I'm checking the dates..) What are we talking about, The Sphinx? How 'bout the nose on that guy. Wonder what happened to it. Is there a racial aspect to this? I know Jesus was around back then (Ancient Egypt, not 2004), and I don't think he was really white, like all the pictures show.
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  #69  
Old 11-11-2012, 04:46 PM
Knorf Knorf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobot View Post
Hey, I want in on some of that 2004 action! (Now that I'm checking the dates..) What are we talking about, The Sphinx? How 'bout the nose on that guy. Wonder what happened to it. Is there a racial aspect to this? I know Jesus was around back then (Ancient Egypt, not 2004), and I don't think he was really white, like all the pictures show.
Jesus WAS white. 'Cause he was born in Missouri.
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  #70  
Old 11-11-2012, 04:52 PM
bobot bobot is offline
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Originally Posted by Knorf View Post
Jesus WAS white. 'Cause he was born in Missouri.
!!!!!!!!!
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  #71  
Old 11-11-2012, 05:04 PM
The Second Stone The Second Stone is offline
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I'm a 50 year old white guy and I heard this in college from even older white guys. Turns out it is not true.
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  #72  
Old 11-11-2012, 05:11 PM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iknowmorethanyou View Post
#1. Ancient Egyptian civilization did not begin with Cleopatra or her Macedonian ancestors, and as it is now asserted by modern scholarship that she did in fact have African ancestry as well, it is with those African ancestors that Ancient Egyptian civilization began.
Nobody in standard modern scholarship asserts this and nobody believes this.

Quote:
#2. There are far too many bas reliefs showing Nubians and Ancient Egyptians to be identical in physiognomy and phenotype, and why not? There differences were political and territorial, not racial.
There aren't any such depictions to my knowledge. OTOH, there are many depictions that clearly show that the Nubians were considered to be a separate people with a distinctly different appearance.
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  #73  
Old 11-11-2012, 05:43 PM
Toucanna Toucanna is offline
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@Iknowmorethanyou: Dude(tte), you're new here, so you may not have noticed that this thread is two months shy of its ninth birthday, the 'Doper who started this thread hasn't been active on this board in seven years, and you probably don't know that at least one of the folks who posted to the thread has gone to that great fact-checking room in the sky.

Welcome to the 'Dope!

ETA: but, more importantly: white Hispanic female, early 50s. Many years ago, I heard the story that BN's troops shot the Sphinx's nose off. Within the past 5 years, I heard that was untrue.

Last edited by Toucanna; 11-11-2012 at 05:46 PM..
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  #74  
Old 11-11-2012, 06:13 PM
Bridget Burke Bridget Burke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knorf View Post
Jesus WAS white. 'Cause he was born in Missouri.
Then why did he have a Mexican name?
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  #75  
Old 11-11-2012, 06:24 PM
Derleth Derleth is offline
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Originally Posted by Bridget Burke View Post
Then why did he have a Mexican name?
He was an anchor baby.

Well, did you ever hear of Mary getting deported?
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  #76  
Old 11-11-2012, 10:07 PM
Leo Bloom Leo Bloom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirley Ujest View Post
The Sphynx is gay?







Where is Weekly World News for these late breaking stories when you need 'em?
A beard need not be a homosexual ploy.
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  #77  
Old 11-11-2012, 10:09 PM
Leo Bloom Leo Bloom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knorf View Post
Jesus WAS white. 'Cause he was born in Missouri.
As for Afrocentrism, you will hear very pointed assertions that Moses was black.
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  #78  
Old 11-12-2012, 09:20 AM
md2000 md2000 is online now
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Yes, I'm white, from Canada, and I had always heard that meme about Napoleon auntil I started reading more in depth when I planned a trip there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by t-keela View Post
Seriously? This site also lists:

Quote:
Nearby Important Buildings
The Pyramids of Giza - Al-Haram, Giza
Mosque of Muhammad Ali Pasha - , Cairo
Petra - , Arabah
City Tower - 14 Zisman Street, Ramat-Gan
Gibor Sport Office Tower - 28 Betzalel Street, Ramat-Gan
Petra and the Gibor Sport office tower??? Obviously both pinnacles of some ancient civilzation lost in time. Gibor built pointy towers, I think. Petra is two countries and at least 500 km away. Why not list the Wailing Walll and the Temples at Luxor?

As for "negroid" - the further south you go, the more "Nubian" the people look, obviously some mixture with the Ethiopian inhabitants. Down near Aswan they mostly look Nubian. Up towards Luxor, and especially around Cairo, they look Arab, much like the depictions of the pharoahs in the carvings. Google images for Ankhaten, who famously tried to get "realistic" as the artistic style of the day, and you will see a very distinctive face. The only remotely negroid-appearing feature is his larger lips. (which of course, no race has a monopoly on)
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  #79  
Old 11-12-2012, 10:25 AM
CalMeacham CalMeacham is offline
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I know it's aombie thread, but I can't resist posting.

I'd heard the story about Napoleon's soldiers (not Napoleon) shooting off the Sphinx' nose, but I didn't realize anyone took it seriously.

The loss of the nose has become a trope in cartoons and comics -- everyone is responsible for the loss of the nose

Obelix is responsible in Asterix and Cleopatra

Mark Twain is responsible in The Adventures of Mark Twain

I've seen many other examples, which I can't recall now. But the Great Sphinx losing its nose gets attributed to lots of cartoon characters.
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  #80  
Old 11-12-2012, 11:32 AM
Knorf Knorf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Bloom View Post
As for Afrocentrism, you will hear very pointed assertions that Moses was black.
So, you're saying it MOSES who attacked the Sphynx's nose??
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  #81  
Old 11-12-2012, 11:51 AM
Slithy Tove Slithy Tove is offline
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Originally Posted by Derleth View Post
He was an anchor baby.

Well, did you ever hear of Mary getting deported?
She and Joseph "self-deported" before the Massacre of the Innocents.
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  #82  
Old 11-13-2012, 02:07 AM
Leo Bloom Leo Bloom is offline
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Quote:
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So, you're saying it MOSES who attacked the Sphynx's nose??
It was probably "too Jewish."
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  #83  
Old 11-13-2012, 03:03 AM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derleth View Post
He was an anchor baby.

Well, did you ever hear of Mary getting deported?
I heard Jesus was born in a car during the trip. The story I got was something about a Pinto, a niño, and Santa Maria.

And I think they were driving to Ohio.
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  #84  
Old 11-13-2012, 03:38 AM
voltaire voltaire is offline
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Originally Posted by Leo Bloom View Post
As for Afrocentrism, you will hear very pointed assertions that Moses was black.
Naturally. How many white people do you know who are named Moses?

Q.E.D.
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  #85  
Old 11-13-2012, 06:50 AM
CalMeacham CalMeacham is offline
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Ahh -- found some more of them. I posted about this six years ago (05-08-2006)

Aladdin (Disney movie)

Prince of Egypt (Spielberg cartoon)

Bill and Ted (TV cartoon)

In addition, Eureka claimed it was in a Smurfs coloring book. And Winston Bongo claimed it was shown in a Fafr Side cartoon.
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  #86  
Old 11-13-2012, 08:38 AM
Reloy3 Reloy3 is offline
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Interestingly, from the news this morning, the rest of the sphinx might not be out of the woods, yet. http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-Ne...0571352719234/
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  #87  
Old 11-13-2012, 10:15 AM
Acsenray Acsenray is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalMeacham View Post
I know it's aombie thread, but I can't resist posting.

I'd heard the story about Napoleon's soldiers (not Napoleon) shooting off the Sphinx' nose, but I didn't realize anyone took it seriously.

The loss of the nose has become a trope in cartoons and comics -- everyone is responsible for the loss of the nose

Obelix is responsible in Asterix and Cleopatra

Mark Twain is responsible in The Adventures of Mark Twain

I've seen many other examples, which I can't recall now. But the Great Sphinx losing its nose gets attributed to lots of cartoon characters.
Yeah, this legend has been around far, far longer than Farrakhan and Afrocentrism. White people told this tale plenty.
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