Entertainers and Knighthoods: Some Questions

[Sampiro]

This is actually a reference question relayed to me in my professional capacity by a friend, but as I’m up to my eyeballs in “real questions” (i.e. those for actual patrons of my library) I’ve decided to cheat and pass it on to Dopers (though I’ll admit I’m interested in the answers myself).


The first English actor to be knighted was Henry Irving (1895- he preceded Lugosi in being typecast as Dracula by a generation, though he took much better care of his money) and it was used very sparingly for entertainers for many years thereafter. (Another famous first was Ian McKellan, who became the first openly gay actor if not the first openly gay person to be knighted, though Nigel Hathorne, Elton John and Derek Jacoby are among the several who hav since joined him in the Queen’s graces.) Since Lawrence Olivier is often referred to as Lord Olivier, I’m assuming he was further honoured after his knighthood.


-Who recommends a knighthood to the queen?

-Does the average “English person on the street” have any greater respect for an entertainer who has been knighted?

-Are the titles hereditary?

-You never see “Sir Anthony Hopkins” or “Sir Michael Caine” written on a movie poster in America- do British marquees or posters mention titles?

-Is a knighthood generally greater or lesser than an Oscar in terms of assisting a career?

-Have there ever been any “what the hell was she thinking?” dubbings of entertainers?

-Are actors who have been knighted eligible to serve in the House of Lords? (I know that Dame Glenda Jackson is a member of the House of Commons, but could she serve in Lords?)

-Are the wives of knighted entertainers addressed as “Lady” after the ceremony? If not, is Joan Plowright (who earned a CBE in her own right) at least able to use the title Lady Olivier? (If so, what of the husbands of, say, Judi Dench or Glenda Jackson- do they receive a title?)

-Does the dubbing come with any form of financial compensation?

-Does public opinion weigh heavily in the choice of who is knighted? (If so, I’m surprised that it took as long as it did for the Queen to dub Sir Paul McCartney.)

-Several famous entertainers (among them Albert Finney, Paul Scofield, Vanessa Redgrave, John Cleese) have refused knighthoods. Were their refusals seen as rude by the monarchy or the British people?

-Are there any actors/actresses/entertainers who are seen as long overdue for a knighthood?

Thanks for any help.

[GorillaMan]

Disclaimer: I'm highly cynical about the whole knighthood business...

Originally Posted by Sampiro

-Who recommends a knighthood to the queen?

No idea

-Does the average “English person on the street” have any greater respect for an entertainer who has been knighted?

Absolutely not. It might provide a passing item of conversation for a couple of days, and that's it.

-Are the titles hereditary?

No

-You never see “Sir Anthony Hopkins” or “Sir Michael Caine” written on a movie poster in America- do British marquees or posters mention titles?

No

-Is a knighthood generally greater or lesser than an Oscar in terms of assisting a career?

You can only ever receive a knighthood once your career is well and truly defined. I guess they're not really comparable - one is a self-congratulatory award from your peers, the other is a self-congratulatory award from your unelected ruler.

-Are actors who have been knighted eligible to serve in the House of Lords? (I know that Dame Glenda Jackson is a member of the House of Commons, but could she serve in Lords?)

AFAIK the answer is no, not unless the Lords decided to accept them. And in any case the whole Lords situation is being changed constantly without ever sorting it out properly.

-Are the wives of knighted entertainers addressed as “Lady” after the ceremony? If not, is Joan Plowright (who earned a CBE in her own right) at least able to use the title Lady Olivier? (If so, what of the husbands of, say, Judi Dench or Glenda Jackson- do they receive a title?)

Again AFAIK, no.

-Does the dubbing come with any form of financial compensation?

Most certainly not!! What do you take us for!!

-Does public opinion weigh heavily in the choice of who is knighted? (If so, I’m surprised that it took as long as it did for the Queen to dub Sir Paul McCartney.)

As I hinted earlier, public indifference is more typical. Many of the decisions of who to knight and who not to knight seem peculiar, but we dismiss it as the royals doing whatever they want.

-Several famous entertainers (among them Albert Finney, Paul Scofield, Vanessa Redgrave, John Cleese) have refused knighthoods. Were their refusals seen as rude by the monarchy or the British people?

Some would see it as honourable, as I do. Some people would regard it to be slightly rude, or deeply offensive. Of course, we never get an official opinion.

[everton]

Originally Posted by Sampiro

(Another famous first was Ian McKellan, who became the first openly gay actor if not the first openly gay person to be knighted, though Nigel Hathorne, Elton John and Derek Jacoby are among the several who hav since joined him in the Queen’s graces.) Since Lawrence Olivier is often referred to as Lord Olivier, I’m assuming he was further honoured after his knighthood.

Here's an article about Ian McKellen and his award.

Laurence Olivier was knighted in 1947, and became the first actor to be given a peerage in 1970.

-Who recommends a knighthood to the queen?

It depends why the honour is being given. Some celebrities are recommended for their charity work, in which case it would be a committee or administrator of the relevant organisation. If they are being recommended just for their acting it would be most likely be BAFTA (the British Academy of Film and Television Arts) or one of the theatrical equivalents. In practice, absolutely anyone can make a recommendation – you can even nominate yourself!

It's a common misunderstanding that the awards reflect the Queen's personal tastes or opinions. The Prime Minister's office sends a list to Buckingham Palace and the Queen generally rubber stamps the nominations. If she has strong negative views about anyone, that would usually have been anticipated when compiling the list. She is believed to have more involvement in the awards made on her official birthday than on New Year's Day.

-Does the average “English person on the street” have any greater respect for an entertainer who has been knighted?

I'm not sure who the “average English person on the street” is, but probably not. If you like or admire the person in question you may feel like congratulating them; if you disapprove of the honours system (as many people do) then you might think they've sold out by accepting an award. It makes some space in the papers for a day or two after the awards, but that's all.

-Are the titles hereditary?

No. Hereditary titles have never been awarded to entertainers, and knighthoods aren't hereditary anyhow. Olivier's peerage terminated automatically when he died.

-You never see “Sir Anthony Hopkins” or “Sir Michael Caine” written on a movie poster in America- do British marquees or posters mention titles?

No, nor in cast lists or anywhere similar. The only times you'd hear their titles being mentioned is when they're introduced on a talk show, or at a formal dinner, or at an awards ceremony etc. Even in the newspapers “Sir” wouldn't usually be included unless the writer wanted to make some point about it (typically of a sarcastic sort).

-Is a knighthood generally greater or lesser than an Oscar in terms of assisting a career?

Any honour may act as a reminder of how highly thought of they are in the business, but I'd guess an Oscar would be better for their career, not least because it would count for more in Hollywood.

-Have there ever been any “what the hell was she thinking?” dubbings of entertainers?

Yes, plenty. There were lots of complaints when the Beatles got their MBEs (not knighthoods), and numerous other angry letters are written to The Times most years. The latest New Years Honours list will have raised some eyebrows, and not just Roger Moore's.

-Are actors who have been knighted eligible to serve in the House of Lords? (I know that Dame Glenda Jackson is a member of the House of Commons, but could she serve in Lords?)

No. A knighthood/damehood confers no political rights or responsibilities whatsoever. Notwithstanding the reforms to the House of Lords that have reduced the number of people entitled to sit there, a Peerage does represent a political entitlement, so Laurence Olivier, Richard Attenborough, David Puttnam etc. have all had that right. I believe Olivier did no political work but some (such as the other two I mentioned) do currently sit in the Lords, make speeches, vote etc.

-Are the wives of knighted entertainers addressed as “Lady” after the ceremony? If not, is Joan Plowright (who earned a CBE in her own right) at least able to use the title Lady Olivier? (If so, what of the husbands of, say, Judi Dench or Glenda Jackson- do they receive a title?)

Wives are, husbands aren't. Joan Plowright has been addressed as Lady Olivier since 1970, but that had nothing to do with her CBE. There's no political entitlement for people who receive honorary titles of address.

-Does the dubbing come with any form of financial compensation?

No. Apparently it scores points when booking a restaurant table but otherwise it's worth nothing.

-Does public opinion weigh heavily in the choice of who is knighted? (If so, I’m surprised that it took as long as it did for the Queen to dub Sir Paul McCartney.)

The people who are impressed by knighthoods and fans of Paul McCartney are not the same people by and large. Increasingly the awards are made with public opinion in mind though.

-Several famous entertainers (among them Albert Finney, Paul Scofield, Vanessa Redgrave, John Cleese) have refused knighthoods. Were their refusals seen as rude by the monarchy or the British people?

There was a minor scandal over the leaking of names of people who had refused awards in the past, but when a title or medal is refused it is generally seen as a predictable anti-establishment gesture in keeping with the person's known politics. Protocol generally requires a “don't ask, don't tell” principle, so that refusals are only made privately. In any case, proposed recipients are asked how they would feel about getting an award to avoid any embarrassment. I can't imagine why they would've nominated Vanessa Redgrave; it was obvious she wouldn't have accepted. The public is pretty split over the whole honours system; there are frequent calls to have it scrapped or at least heavily reformed. Those who are happy with the present setup do feel that the Queen has been insulted by a refusal, and make their feelings clear in writing, but I've never heard of an actor's work being boycotted.

-Are there any actors/actresses/entertainers who are seen as long overdue for a knighthood?

The newspapers often say “isn't it about time x got one”, in fact the whole subject is treated a bit like the Oscar awards/nominations, but with less razzamatazz.

This summary may also be of interest: Q&A: The Honours system

[Governor Quinn]

Originally Posted by Sampiro

(Another famous first was Ian McKellan, who became the first openly gay actor if not the first openly gay person to be knighted.)

Wrong. John Gieguld was openly gay for most (if not all) of his adult life, and was knighted years before McKellan.

[everton]

This is probably not worth making a big deal about in the context of the thread, but you're getting confused between Gielgud being “openly gay” and all his friends knowing about it. When Gielgud was knighted, in 1953, male homosexuality was still illegal in Britain. He certainly wasn't “out” in the present day sense McKellen is.

[Governor Quinn]

Originally Posted by everton

This is probably not worth making a big deal about in the context of the thread, but you're getting confused between Gielgud being “openly gay” and all his friends knowing about it. When Gielgud was knighted, in 1953, male homosexuality was still illegal in Britain. He certainly wasn't “out” in the present day sense McKellen is.

Odds are, I'm thinking about his arrest for sodomy in (I believe) 1934, and assuming that that would have made his sexuality known to the public-at-large.

[everton]

No, Gielgud's arrest was also in 1953 – after he'd been knighted. However, this article does say that his homosexuality was “generally known if not publicly acknowledged” and that that was the reason he had not been honoured already.

It's reasonable to conclude that the government were persuaded that details of his private life were not so widely understood that they would be seen to be giving an accolade to a man who was routinely breaking the law.

[Sampiro]

Thanks to all for your answers. This has been interesting; as an umpteenth generation American the hounours system is Greek to me but, like Greek, fascinating. While it doesn't surprise me that most people couldn't give a whit if X is knighted or not, I was surprised in the readings to find how controversial the honours system is.

[Drogulus]

Originally Posted by Sampiro

The first English actor to be knighted was Henry Irving (1895- he preceded Lugosi in being typecast as Dracula by a generation, though he took much better care of his money)

I don't believe Irving ever played Dracula, much less was typecast in the role. Bram Stoker, whose day job was as Irving's assistant, tried to convince Irving to appear in a stage version, but got nowhere. There's been a lot of speculation as to whether Stoker used Irving as a model for his fictional vampire.

[Sampiro]

Rrrgggh! Mea maxima culpa! Drogulus is correct and I am addlepated.

Don't ask me how, but somehow I cross-referenced Henry Irving with William Gillette, an American actor who became typecast as Sherlock Holmes, not Dracula. Maybe it's the vampiric looking castle he built with his Sherlock earnings that was confusing me.

[Polycarp]

A couple of points:

While the idea that the P.M. nominates the recipients of honors, and the Queen as Head of State awards them more or less automatically, is in the vast majority of cases accurate, there are a few honors that are at the personal disposal of the Queen, among them the Order of the Garter (the top rank of English knighthood -- I believe this is also true of the Thistle, at the top of the Scottish knightly hierarchy).

Nearly all knighthoods are either "knights bachelor" -- i.e., not a member of an order, or in the Order of the British Empire. But a few are awarded as parts of a specific order, such as the Garter, Thistle, Bath, and Michael and George.

And there are two groups of knighthoods that is in fact hereditary -- one, in the Irish peerage, long since in abeyance, and the other the two forms of Baronet, those of Ulster and of Nova Scotia (though I think the latter is also long since defunct). Baronets use "Sir N. N., Bart." as their form of formal address, rank above other knights (except those of the Garter), and are able to pass their knighthood on to their heirs of blood. Whether any baronets have been created in the last few decades, I'm unable to say.

[everton]

Originally Posted by Polycarp

Whether any baronets have been created in the last few decades, I'm unable to say.

Margaret Thatcher's husband, Denis, was given a baronetcy in 1991. His wife was the first woman to receive the Order of the Garter (insert joke of your choice).

The Order of Merit is another award in the personal gift of the monarch. Only 24 people can be members at any one time, although extra awards can be made to foreign nationals (for example, Dr Albert Schweitzer, Gen. Eisenhower, Mother Teresa and Nelson Mandela have all received it).