Asians and math

[MAFA]

Does anyone have any idea why Asians are so good at math?

[Q.E.D.]

Cause they study and work hard at it?

[Gadfly]

Because their parents force it on them from an early age?

[MAFA]

Have you guys seen the Claude Steele study of reinforcing stereotypes? Could this be a valid factor as well?

[matt_mcl]

Probably for the same reason those gay guys are all so well dressed.

[Gopher]

Another possible reason to kick in:

The Asian people in the US (I'm assuming you're American) you're meeting are those who were smart enough to be part of the brain drain to America. They left their home country to attend graduate school in the US and then just settled down here with a job and start families. What you see is just the smarter, more successful part of Asia that came here.

[gobear]

Having taught in South Korea from 1993-1999, I can assure that the bell curve distribution of IQ is as valid there as here. Asian kids are no smarter or dumber than any other racial group--the only difference I can see is that the cultures are competitive and the parents drive the kids to excel. In South Korea, for example, students have challenging classes, 7 hours a day, 6 days a week. After regular school, students attend hagwans, private institutions where students take classes in English, Korean, Chinese characters, math, science, and many other subjects. Korean schools are extremely competitive, and the choice of university completely determines a student's future success. Students have to take qualifying exams to get into university, and every year there are far more students than there are places in university. Consequently, the pressure to succeed and get not just good grades, but the best grades, is absolutely crushing.

In short, Asian kids aren't smarter, just much more driven to succeed by their parents.

[alice_in_wonderland]

There's an asian girl working at my local 7-11 and I can assure you that she's dumb as a bag of hair. I think she can only count above 10 with her shoes off (she's given me incorrect change so many times it's now a running joke).

Anyhow - she's nice enough, but certainly not a math wiz. Are you meeting your group on a university campus or something?

[Eternal]

God, it's a mystery, but fortunately, the Asian assimilation is going quite nicely, allow me to allay your fears and assure you that within ten years, no Asian will be any better at math than any other decent, non-kung-fu-fighting American.

[The Scrivener]

Heh, heh. It is because we are all so inscrutable, ah so?

Seriously, though, I wish it were true. I'm part Asian and when I took calc in H.S., it was just me and some boy (who I didn't know at all) representing that bundle of ethnicities, and the two of us were easily the worst students in the class.

I remember one day near the end of our senior year, when the teacher was returning a graded quiz or test, and she looked at him, and then looked at me, with this priceless expression of despair and disbelief... as if she felt that she had just tumbled into the Twilight Zone or something. Bizarro High School... where the Asian kids are the bakatare*!

I never had the slightest affinity for chemistry, physics, or computers, either. [sigh]


*Japanese for "idiot, fool".

[iampunha]

Anyone else amused by the dichotomy between the OP and the OP's sig?

[Sqube]

Originally Posted by iampunha

Anyone else amused by the dichotomy between the OP and the OP's sig?

LoL I didn't even notice it until you said something, iampunha. Very delicious though...

[CadburyAngel]

Before answering this question, I would really need to see some sort of statistical proof that people of Asian descent are better at math, and further proof that performance in that study was not influenced by stereotype threat.

Without those two things, I think the only question we can really answer is, "Why does the popular stereotype of Asians include good math performance?" I think gobear and Gopher answered that about as well as it's going to be answered.

Unfortunately, the field of stereotyping and prejudice research is relatively new and there are many gaps in the literature. Some articles you may find of interest:

Chen, Mark & Bargh, J. (1997) Nonconscious behavioral confirmation processes: The self-fulfilling consequences of automatic stereotype activation. Journal of Experimental Social Psychology, 33, 541 - 560.

Cheryan, Sapna, & Bodenhausen, G. (2000) When positive stereotypes threaten intellectual performance: The psychological hazards of a "model minority" status. Psychological Science, 11.5, 399 - 402.

Shih, Margaret, Pittinsky, T., Ambady, N. (1999) Stereotype susceptibility: Identity salience and shifts in quantitative performance. Psychological Science, 10.1, 80 - 83.

[Bruce_Daddy]

Same reason Jews are so good with money.


d::R!

[lucwarm]

Originally Posted by CadburyAngel

Before answering this question, I would really need to see some sort of statistical proof that people of Asian descent are better at math,

I would want to see it too. Anecdotally, it's common on university campuses to meet oriental/asian students who are good at math but not as good verbally. But try visiting a top law school these days -- you'll find plenty of asian students who are doing just fine (although a lot of them seem interested in patent law . . . hmmm)

[Really Not All That Bright]

Because there are so fucking many of us. We need to be able to count beyond our own fingers, see?

Seriously, we're not all good at maths. I'm not.

On the other hand, I'm half white so maybe that proves your point.

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

Because the other ethnic groups got all the fun stereotypes?

[MAFA]

Originally Posted by iampunha

Anyone else amused by the dichotomy between the OP and the OP's sig?

What dichotomy?

[Dangerosa]

Easy....

Math skill happen on a curve. In order for someone to be bad at it, someone else has to be good at it. This is basic statistics that everyone knows. Because blonde women are bad at math, someone had to get their math skills, and it turns out it was Asians.

You can see this fact at work in other areas as well. Black men got all the basketball skills that Asians lack. Lesbian women got all the softball skills that geek high school boys lack.

Really, didn't you learn anything in math?

[Really Not All That Bright]

Originally Posted by Dangerosa

Easy....

Math skill happen on a curve. In order for someone to be bad at it, someone else has to be good at it. This is basic statistics that everyone knows. Because blonde women are bad at math, someone had to get their math skills, and it turns out it was Asians.

You can see this fact at work in other areas as well. Black men got all the basketball skills that Asians lack. Lesbian women got all the softball skills that geek high school boys lack.

Really, didn't you learn anything in math?

I thought lesbians were bowlers.

[MAFA]

Originally Posted by lucwarm

I would want to see it too. Anecdotally, it's common on university campuses to meet oriental/asian students who are good at math but not as good verbally. But try visiting a top law school these days -- you'll find plenty of asian students who are doing just fine (although a lot of them seem interested in patent law . . . hmmm)

http://www.mathwizz.com/papers/parentreport.htm

http://starbulletin.com/2004/01/18/news/story2.html

http://www.ceousa.org/va.html

Would you like another?

[furt]

To add to Gobear's comments: traditional Asian education relies heavily on rote memorization; useful for things like mathematical formulas.

Additionally, there is a difference between "intelligence" and "doing well in school," and Asians do well in school for cultural reasons such as Gobear listed, even if they are no smarter than the anglo kid next to them.

And why is this in the Pit?

[MAFA]

Originally Posted by furt

To add to Gobear's comments: traditional Asian education relies heavily on rote memorization; useful for things like mathematical formulas.

Additionally, there is a difference between "intelligence" and "doing well in school," and Asians do well in school for cultural reasons such as Gobear listed, even if they are no smarter than the anglo kid next to them.

And why is this in the Pit?

What do you think is an apt measurement of intelligence if not GPA? SAT scores?

[hajario]

I have a MS in Engineering. Part of the way that I put myself through grad school was by being a TA. I had a dumbass housemate who made the same claim as the OP. I honestly never noticed one way or the other. After I finished grading a pile of tests, I sorted them by ethnicity. Guess what? No one group did better than any other.

Haj

[MAFA]

Originally Posted by hajario

I have a MS in Engineering. Part of the way that I put myself through grad school was by being a TA. I had a dumbass housemate who made the same claim as the OP. I honestly never noticed one way or the other. After I finished grading a pile of tests, I sorted them by ethnicity. Guess what? No one group did better than any other.

Haj

Statistically speaking, your representative sample is too small. I'm talking state-wide, nationally, those sorts of numbers.

[DSeid]

http://www.nsf.gov/sbe/srs/seind93/chap1/doc/1c8b93.htm

Asians not only outscored all other groups on the mathematics SAT from 1987 through 1992, they are also widening the gap between themselves and all other groups. More Asians are taking the test and are scoring at the highest levels. Indeed, the proportion of Asians scoring 750 or more almost doubled during the period, rising from 3 to 5 percent. At the same time, the percentage of Asians scoring below 450 dropped from 30 percent in 1987 to 27 percent in 1992.

http://www.weac.org/News/2003-04/aug03/SAT2003.pdf
Asians lead national math SAT scores and percentage of ethnic group that take precalc and calc in HS through 2003.

So the stereotype of Asian-Americans has a basis in fact, anecdotes of stupidheads and math disabled Asians notwithstanding. No one seems to claim that this is based on "racial" factors, just interested in whether or not it is a selection bias or a result of family values and pressures or cultural expectations or difficulty in achieving in language-based venues so focusing intellectual energy in math related ones or what.

[7 up yours]

I'm pureblood Asian and I got my calculus midterm back yesterday. 21/40. Passed by a hairline. I did better in high school, but not that much better.

Maybe it's because I grew up in Canada and all my life have rejected my parents' pressure to act "more Asian" (like my brother, oh the horror), or because it's a stupid stereotype that doesn't apply to anyone I know.

[tinactin]

I have been teaching mathematics at various universities in North America
over the past 8 years and have never noticed this difference amongst undergraduates.

Some plausible reasons have already been given. Another factor to consider is that when it comes to graduate school the better US born students will go to places like Harvard, Princeton, etc. Life is more competitive for foreign students, and many very good students end up in your local state university. This causes a disparity in the abilities of foreign and US born students at some colleges.

Originally Posted by furt

To add to Gobear's comments: traditional Asian education relies heavily on rote memorization; useful for things like mathematical formulas.

The person who gave you this impression about mathematics has done you a great
disservice.

[Eats_Crayons]

Originally Posted by DSeid

So the stereotype of Asian-Americans has a basis in fact, anecdotes of stupidheads and math disabled Asians notwithstanding. No one seems to claim that this is based on "racial" factors, just interested in whether or not it is a selection bias or a result of family values and pressures or cultural expectations or difficulty in achieving in language-based venues so focusing intellectual energy in math related ones or what.

I think Gobear's post is very smack dab, dead-on. I have colleagues from other Asian nations who say that their parents pressured them heavily when it came to maths and sciences -- they were expected to get no less than a solid A. For "arts" stuff, including languages, social sciences, there was not so much pressure. There was still a huge expectation to do well, but nothing like parental demands of math and science achievement.

In the U.S. there is a lot of hero worship for outstanding athletes - hence you get the soccer mom's and dad's who put tremendous pressure on their kids to be "winners". Or coaches who make kids practice, practice, practice -- trying to get them to be the very best they can be in their sport.

It's a very similar phenomenon.

My colleague was pressured in a very similar way to excel in math and science. His parents didn't want him to be the star quaterback, he was supposed to be the star physicist. You think Soccer Mom's are scary, just wait 'til you meet a Science Mom!

MAFA don't forget, GPA doesn't necessarily reflect "natural aptitude." I completley suck at math, but was able to get A's purely as a result of insane dilligence and tremendous discipline. I scored quite decently on the math component of the SAT's not because I was inherently good at math (I mean, I really suck!) but because I invested much, much more time and effort into it than most other students.

I was also pressured by imposed standards, luckily I was the one who imposed them on myself (I had As in everything else, so I took it personally that I sucked at math).

If there are cultural influences for standards of "achievement", you're going to have people working extremely hard to meet the expectations of their family -- whether if it's training 8 hours a day to be the football hero, or locking yourself away doing homework so you can be the math champ.

[Ilsa_Lund]

Originally Posted by MAFA

What dichotomy?

<<Insert sound of Cartman cackling hysterically>>

[Eats_Crayons]

Sorry DSeid didn't give you proper credit. I meant that Gobear's post AND yours seemed (IMHO) to be on target.

[toomuchtv]

Maybe this makes me a bigot. I hope not, but you never know when you're commenting on someone else's ethnic group. Eye of the beholder, and all that.

I think that that many Asian kids excel at math and science for the same reason that many Jewish kids grow up to be doctors, lawyers, scientists, CPAs, and... talmudic scholars.

I think both sets of kids come from a culture that traditionally and historically places a high value on education, scholarship, learning.

They may get teased by people outide their own group for being nerds, etc. But good grades are rewarded with approval within their own ethnic group. By their parents, mostly, but by the rest of their support group as well. Their community as a whole.

I've seen more than one TV news special about kids who try to get good grades being accused by their peers of "acting white". None of these kids were Asian or Jewish.

[CadburyAngel]

Originally Posted by MAFA

http://www.mathwizz.com/papers/parentreport.htm

http://starbulletin.com/2004/01/18/news/story2.html

http://www.ceousa.org/va.html

Would you like another?

The first link is good enough for me: students educated in China outperform Chinese-Canadian students outperform non-Chinese Canadians. In the article, it is attributed to the students having memorized the most basic computations of the problem (14 divided by 2, for example) and being thus freed to consider the rest of the problem and proceed more quickly. The smaller but still significant percentage of Chinese-Canadian students who could outperform the non-Chinese group could quite easily be explained by the tutoring efforts of their parents, teaching them the same memorization system that they presumably learned in the same Chinese school system that educated the highest-performing group. Works for me.

[gluteus maximus]

Why is this in the Pit?

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

Originally Posted by gluteus maximus

Why is this in the Pit?

Perhaps because MAFA (say it out loud, folks ), our new friend, was expecting to, ah, provoke certain sorts of responses?

[shijinn]

Originally Posted by DSeid

... or difficulty in achieving in language-based venues so focusing intellectual energy in math related ones or what. ...

i'm guessing this may be the reason for some.

when your native language is not english, math would be way easier to understand (and to therefore concentrate your studies on) than a language which you would not use frequently. given a choice between english and maths, which would a non-native speaker find easier to study for? the foreign language with it's varied rules and nuances that some people still cannot agree on; or mathematics, the science of numbers with it's strict rules and clear concepts?

btw, i hear that they are adjusting the SAT to add in additional english language modules, presumably to balance out those who depend on maths to bring up their SAT scores. is this true?

[Agent Foxtrot]

Originally Posted by Bruce_Daddy

Same reason Jews are so good with money.

Sorry, I just had to comment on this. I'm Jewish, and you've never seen anyone who is worse with money than me.

[Ilsa_Lund]

Originally Posted by FoamFighter

Sorry, I just had to comment on this. I'm Jewish, and you've never seen anyone who is worse with money than me.

It was a joke. son, I say a joke.

[rjung]

All I know is, my parents made me memorize my multiplication tables at the tender age of eight and recite them by rote. To this day I can't do 5 x 7 without slipping into Chinese...

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Dangerosa

You can see this fact at work in other areas as well. Black men got all the basketball skills that Asians lack. Lesbian women got all the softball skills that geek high school boys lack.

So, what did the lesbian men get?

[tinactin]

Here is some actual data:

Mathematics doctoral degrees by race, 2000

Mathematics doctoral degrees
by race 2002

Take a look at the first column. It is breakup of doctoral degrees awarded to
US citizens via race. I see no over representation by asians.

[tinactin]

Here is some actual data:

Mathematics doctoral degrees by race, 2000

Mathematics doctoral degrees by race 2002

Take a look at the first column. It is breakup of doctoral degrees awarded to US citizens via race. I see no over representation by asians. This directly contradicts some of the theories already proposed.

[MAFA]

Originally Posted by tinactin

Here is some actual data:

Mathematics doctoral degrees by race, 2000

Mathematics doctoral degrees by race 2002

Take a look at the first column. It is breakup of doctoral degrees awarded to US citizens via race. I see no over representation by asians. This directly contradicts some of the theories already proposed.

You are wrong. Looking at the population of the U.S., Asians are outnumbered by both Blacks and Hispanics yet earn more degrees than them. They are overrepresented.

[MAFA]

Originally Posted by shijinn

i'm guessing this may be the reason for some.

when your native language is not english, math would be way easier to understand (and to therefore concentrate your studies on) than a language which you would not use frequently. given a choice between english and maths, which would a non-native speaker find easier to study for? the foreign language with it's varied rules and nuances that some people still cannot agree on; or mathematics, the science of numbers with it's strict rules and clear concepts?

btw, i hear that they are adjusting the SAT to add in additional english language modules, presumably to balance out those who depend on maths to bring up their SAT scores. is this true?

They are adding the SAT II writing section to the SAT in 2005 but that is because the University of California was balking at the original SAT saying it was too biased.

[LogicinMotion]

Why are asians better at math? Because they're out to prove that you're someone who subscribes to racial stereotypes, and they've been monitoring your dreams from space via asian satellite network, which peeks into your bedroom through your window and scans your western mind while you sleep.

They're aware of how you think, and they've planted Taiwanese agents all around you, who are good at math, to ensure that your until now hidden biases rose to the fore. This is part of a larger plan that they have to make all white people think they are not as well endowed mentally as the asian race is.

They also make blacks think they're more well endowed than all the whites, and they further ensure that this stereotype is true by scanning all white peoples brains while they sleep and implanting the thoght that blacks all have larger penis sizes than white men.

The asian race is out to take over the world all holding their little red cookbooks aloft and acting in an inscrutable fashion. It just takes another western mind to unravel this fiendishly asian plot and decode it for westerners like you.

Oddly enough this plan is working so well, that even when I reveal the truth to you, you'll just deny it, and deny you have any hiden biases to speak of. You'll probably also point out that in other posts I have revealed myself to be white and from England. Mind you, that too is part of a larger inscrutable plan!

Sleep well.

Logic.

[Tyrrell McAllister]

I'm a graduate student working towards a PhD in mathematics. Just to add some more anecdotal evidence regarding which groups are stereotypically good at math:

No one thinks it's the Asians are unusually skilled. It's those preternaturally gifted Russians who everyone talks about. I've heard more than one math talk on some arcane subject begin jokingly with "As the Russians in the audience learned in junior high school . . .".

[RickJay]

Originally Posted by CadburyAngel

Before answering this question, I would really need to see some sort of statistical proof that people of Asian descent are better at math...

We should get some Chinese guy to figure out the stats for us!

[Eats_Crayons]

Originally Posted by Miller

So, what did the lesbian men get?

Enmeshed in very complicated identity politics.

[Cardinal]

I used to help run a tutoring company, and I can tell you that the Asian parents were really much more on top of their kids about school (overall) than the white parents. I did have some Asian students who just never were going to even graduate from college probably, but they were much more likely to have had their scholastic ability maximized by lots of hours studying.

There is a LOT more value placed on academics in Asian cultures, IME. We had one tutor who told me that he was going to UCLA because when he got accepted to Harvey Mudd, his parents said, "Never heard of it. We can't tell your aunts and uncles in Taiwan that you're going to something no one ever heard of." In reality, HM is definitely harder to get into than UCLA, but they couldn't face people without a good-looking report on their son.

[Eva Luna]

Originally Posted by Tyrrell McAllister

No one thinks it's the Asians are unusually skilled. It's those preternaturally gifted Russians who everyone talks about. I've heard more than one math talk on some arcane subject begin jokingly with "As the Russians in the audience learned in junior high school . . .".

[warning: extremely geeky Slavophile joke ahead]

This just adds more fuel to the fire for those who believe that Russia is not really part of Europe; it's part of Asia. Maybe the Mongol hordes left behind some kind of super-duper dominant math gene?